W.VA. teen arrested after "almost inciting riot"

[arora]

Rights are universal dude, you create conflict where there is none(based on rights). Keep on with your "everyone has a say as long as it agrees with me" it works well, seriously it does, sadly.

 

[Zenith]

So that question that Toronado asked... Can we get an answer? What rights did the student wearing the shirt violate? I await a straightforward answer with baited breath.

We must have gotten side tracked with talking about careers in politics.

 

[BobK]

What rights were being violated in the first place by the kid wearing a T-shirt?

This needs repeating...

What rights were being violated in the first place by the kid wearing a T-shirt?

Because you're very good at dodging questions.

I seriously cannot believe you made that statement. Actually, given your demonstrated lack of reading comprehension I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

So, again, what rights were being violated in the first place by the kid wearing a T-shirt?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Judging by what some people are saying in this thread, they certainly wouldn't be bothered by it - so long as the person exercising their rights can prove that they were exercising them, then it doesn't matter if they are denying someone else their own rights. It's a case of "my rights are more important than your rights", and then they have the hide to claim that they are defending those rights.

Please, for the love of God, tells us whose rights the kid trampled on by refusing to turn a shirt inside out, a shirt that does not violate the dress code of his school. And if you believe this to be true, specify what right it was that was trampled.

Please demonstrate for us also, assuming it's true that the kid is "defending his rights" how him doing so, precludes anyone else from excercising their ability or opportunity to defend their own rights. Please note, the right to "not be offended" does not exist, so please be specific on what rights the kid is denying to someone else.

 

[Grayfox]

Think Monkey is say that it may offend some people to see a picture of a gun on a shirt worn in school with the school shootings and other shootings that have happened.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Think Monkey is say that it may offend some people to see a picture of a gun on a shirt worn in school with the school shootings and other shootings that have happened.

I see stuff every day that I don't like, but the thought of going up to someone and saying, "Hey in light of _____________ incident, would you please stop doing this or wearing that" never crosses my mind.

 

[Exorcet]

Judging by what some people are saying in this thread, they certainly wouldn't be bothered by it - so long as the person exercising their rights can prove that they were exercising them, then it doesn't matter if they are denying someone else their own rights.

Someone cannot be exercising their rights if they are violating someone else's. So I have to ask again, do you see this happening?

If you think that someone else's rights were violating, then you must think the student had no right to wear the shirt.

It's a case of "my rights are more important than your rights", and then they have the hide to claim that they are defending those rights.

Let's assume that the goal by everyone here is to defend their right of free speech and nothing else. How is that hurting anyone else? Secondly is it really selfish when the person whose right's they are arguing for is most likely a complete stranger?

Think Monkey is say that it may offend some people to see a picture of a gun on a shirt worn in school with the school shootings and other shootings that have happened.

It certainly may. It may also offend someone to see a pink breast cancer bracelet or shirt.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It certainly may. It may also offend someone to see a pink breast cancer bracelet or shirt.

Funny you should mention that. 4 of my buddies and I play in a yearly golf tournament for bragging rights, in teams of 2. Last year we decided we would force the losers each subsequent year to wear something embarassing. One of us was absent when we decided it would be bright pink golf shirts with the words "Loser" emblazened on the back, idea being, it's all swarthy, , meat eating, knuckledragging types in this tournament and pink would be embarassing, and the word "loser" is self explanatory.

When we told our other friend about it he objected saying that we might offend women wearing pink shirts because it's the colour adopted by the Breast Cancer Society's pink ribbon campaign to support the fight against breast cancer. Call me insensitive, but I actually laughed out loud that we might offend someone by wearing pink but he was joined by another mate who agreed with him.

The first guy said, somewhat indignant, "my Mother just survived cancer", whereupon I replied, "you may recall my mother and brother both died of cancer, and it doesn't bother me in the least". Of course in this PC world where just about anything can be perceived as an insult, I lost and no pink golf shirts will be worn this summer.

 

[Minty]

I feel like this is somewhat relevant given the pkst above:

 

[Johnnypenso]

What is a pkst? Yes I googled it, and came up with Pakistan Student Teachers (which I'm not) and something to do with a toolkit.

Haha..don't want to assume in this crowd as it usually gets you in trouble but maybe you meant "post"...lol...

 

[Nicksfix]

As a teacher, you're inevitably going to be drawn into conflict.

I can understand that part ... it does happen. However, in this given case, I feel the teacher went against the grain that you have outlined.

you should actively seek it out, but you cannot afford to ignore it, avoid it, or pretend it doesn't exist. Nor can you allow a student to continue doing something that you consider to be dangerous, disruptive, or which the school has made it known that it wishes to see come to an end, just because you're afraid that the kid will claim his rights have been trampled on.

Given the scenario / pertaining subject at hand, I can agree with this ... to a point. However, in this particular case, it is all wrong (IMO). Up until this point in the day, the lunch period teacher was the only one to have had a problem here. No other teacher did. Why ? Probably because they knew that they were going to be in the wrong, had they approached him. This can only lead to one conclusion. The teacher knew that the kid was well within his rights about wearing the t-shirt in question. As mentioned before, this teacher was obviously anti gun / 2nd amendment. So be it, your allowed to have your expression on the matter. I've not a problem with that part. The problem is that this teacher pushed his view on this kid, telling him that he was wrong. That is where he overstepped the boundary. That is why,(I feel) what led up to this getting escalated the way it did, ultimately leading to the kids arrest. The teacher was power tripping his views on the kid. You can't blame the kid for firing back (no pun intended).

These are the first three things that I learned about how to be a teacher before I got into a classroom:

1) Never, ever be alone with a student.
2) Never, ever let emotion dictate your course of action.
3) Never, ever push a political opinion onto a student.

1) check
2) teacher failed
3) teacher failed again

2 strikes against this teacher, as per your words. So by your interpretation, and going off of what really happened, who (in your opinion) was wrong ? I think you answered it in your post.

That's really why I'm questioning this version of events where the teacher started shouting at a student because he himself did not agree with gun ownership.

So now we have two teacher varying aspects of this matter. What really happened, and what you would have done.

If I felt that the student's shirt was questionable under the school dress code, then I probably would have approached him. But I would also have the sense to approach him before school starts if I could. A big part of the reactions in this case come down to the way the teacher approached him late in the day; he'd been fine until then, and then one teacher approached him at lunch, and that's where the trouble started.

In approaching him, I'd make it pretty clear that I felt the shirt was questionable under the dress code, and that the responsible thing to do would be to err on the side of caution. If I can think that, then other teacher might think it, too. I'd make it pretty clear up-front that this has nothing to do with my views on gun ownership, just that it's an issue to do with the dress code, and that there may be people out there who can misinterpret the message he wants to make.

If he resists, I'd appeal to his sense of knowing and respecting guns - he should know and respect the issues that come with them as well, and that maybe he should consider the idea that making a statement in support of gun ownership at school isn't the most appropriate way to make that statement.

Finally, it would be important to bear in mind that he is fourteen. He's concerned about an issue that he cares deeply about, but he hasn't necessarily thought the idea all the way though. So I'd try and get him to consider that there are people out there who feel just as strongly about the issue as he does, with the difference being that he holds an opposing position. They might see his actions as something that they can use to further their own cause. They could claim that "The NRA is getting kids to support gun ownership in schools!", and regardless of whether or not that is actually true, he shouldn't give them the opportunity to say it, which weakens their cause and strengthens his own.

If he still resists after all of that - particularly if he wants to make a political issue out of it by bringing up his rights - then I'd make it clear that if he wants to exercise his rights, then he needs to shoulder the responsibilities that come with them. If he cannot accept that responsibility, then he should not exercise that right to begin with, or choose another way to exercise it, one that has responsibilities that he can handle.

I'd make it pretty clear up-front that this has nothing to do with my views on gun ownership, just that it's an issue to do with the dress code

It's not a dress code issue. It's a personal issue, with the teacher. Had it been a dress code issue, it would have been snagged in the early morning. Remember to dot your I's and to cross your T's upon approach. Saying the wrong thing can lead you straight into a conflict, as it did here in this case.

They've probably sought legal advice of their own, and have decided to remain silent. There is no need for them to be drawn into a conflict with the kid that will only make headlines and further enable him. No, this will go behind closed doors. I very much doubt anything will come of it - legal costs would build up at such a rate that the kid and his family would reach a point of diminishing returns, where any damages paid out just go to cover the costs, making the whole affair an expensive waste of time. That's probably why the family went to the media: a quick settlement is the only way they'd get anything out of it, if that. There's a case here where the school might want to remove the kid from school, out of concerns that any student who disagrees with a teacher will simply launch legal action.

As with anything, there has to be two sides to every matter. For the school not to make a statement, they are basically admitting guilt.

By the way, upon returning to the school on the following week, the kid wore the same shirt that he did on the day of this incident. Why did nothing happen on this given day when he returned ? Where was the teacher in question who had a problem with this ? If it was not permissible last week, why all of a sudden is it permissible this week ?

 

[sumbrownkid]

I think it's because the school didn't want to deal with anymore backlash.

 

[arora]

That makes no sense, if they where right they should stick to their guns, if they where wrong(which is obvious) they need to do way more then just let him back with the same t shirt that put him in jail.

Make the dress code more strict, can the teacher better yet, close the whole damn school district(yes a joke so don't cry monkey)

Anyway, such a shame, I am shamed as an American having to see that garbage ...

 

[MrSulu]

So it was in the kids rights to wear the T-shirt, fair enough.

Is it a sensible thing to wear considering the recent tragedies in schools? Absolutely not.

The last thing a 14 year old boy should be interested in doing is making political statements.

14 year olds should be chasing girls, playing conkers, and playing video games.

Ultimately guns and school don't mix well in any way, shape or form, As this has proven.

 

[Johnnypenso]

So it was in the kids rights to wear the T-shirt, fair enough.

Is it a sensible thing to wear considering the recent tragedies in schools? Absolutely not.

The last thing a 14 year old boy should be interested in doing is making political statements.

14 year olds should be chasing girls, playing conkers, and playing video games.

Ultimately guns and school don't mix well in any way, shape or form, As this has proven.

I along with most of my classmates, were very politically aware at the age of 14 and I can remember to this day some of the very heated discussions we had. And 14 year olds today are far more worldly then we were back in the day. One could easily ask the same question in reverse. Is it sensible for someone to react to a picture of a gun that isn't advertising or advocating anything violent? Guns in and of themselves cause no harm, someone needs to pull the trigger.

Just as an aside, whenever I read your posts, I can't help but hear it in Sulu's voice in my head

 

[Tesla]

The last thing a 14 year old boy should be interested in doing is making political statements.

14 year olds should be chasing girls, playing conkers, and playing video games.

I disagree. Teaching children from a young age - one from which they may still be able to understand the content - the values of a particular movement or party without bias would certainly better our society in the long term. Whether it is possible to teach a subject like that without bias is questionable, however.

 

[MrSulu]

I along with most of my classmates, were very politically aware at the age of 14 and I can remember to this day some of the very heated discussions we had. And 14 year olds today are far more worldly then we were back in the day. One could easily ask the same question in reverse. Is it sensible for someone to react to a picture of a gun that isn't advertising or advocating anything violent? Guns in and of themselves cause no harm, someone needs to pull the trigger.

Just as an aside, whenever I read your posts, I can't help but hear it in Sulu's voice in my head

Aye captain

Watching the youtube vid a few pages back he seems like a decent lad who probably meant no harm. Being arrested was harsh, I think both sides could have shown a little more discretion the shirt can be misinterpreted, and can be easily viewed as controversial by many, but he was likely aware of that to begin with.

 

[Zenith]

It's not his job to ensure that nobody who sees that shirt will be offended in the same way it is not your job to ensure that your speech/expression does not offend others. People can and do take offense to whatever they want using whatever interpretations they want.

 

[Exorcet]

Is it a sensible thing to wear considering the recent tragedies in schools? Absolutely not.

His shirt is unrelated to those events. The closest it gets is that the school shootings have helped spark an increase in anti gun sentiments which threaten the the second amendment.

The last thing a 14 year old boy should be interested in doing is making political statements.

This is the last thing a 14 year old should be told. "You're an idiot, and don't you dare try to act like an adult. You will do it wrong and you will deservingly be hated for it."

Ultimately guns and school don't mix well in any way, shape or form, As this has proven.

Nothing mixes well when people take offense at anything. His shirt is perfectly fine for a school environment where the dress code allows people to state opinions. It is non violent, it is legal, and it's not flamboyant. How is it different from wearing a shirt defending free speech, peace in the middle east, or advertising your favorite band?

 

[counter345]

So it was in the kids rights to wear the T-shirt, fair enough.

Is it a sensible thing to wear considering the recent tragedies in schools? Absolutely not.

The last thing a 14 year old boy should be interested in doing is making political statements.

14 year olds should be chasing girls, playing conkers, and playing video games.

Ultimately guns and school don't mix well in any way, shape or form, As this has proven.

Why can't a fourteen year old make political stances? I know a few intelligent fourteen year olds that know more politics than my uninterested parents.

Here's a better question: How does someone, coming in to school with a gun on the t-shirt, affect anyone's rights what-so-ever, because that's what it boils down to: who's rights is infringed.

 

[MrSulu]

His shirt is unrelated to those events. The closest it gets is that the school shootings have helped spark an increase in anti gun sentiments which threaten the the second amendment.

Well if its your right, fine carry on, it's going to happen again, but it's your right to let that happen. Use the second amendment to justify pretty much anything, common sense be damned.

This is the last thing a 14 year old should be told. "You're an idiot, and don't you dare try to act like an adult. You will do it wrong and you will deservingly be hated for it."

Who said they are idiots? that's a severe twisting of words.

Nothing mixes well when people take offense at anything. His shirt is perfectly fine for a school environment where the dress code allows people to state opinions. It is non violent, it is legal, and it's not flamboyant. How is it different from wearing a shirt defending free speech, peace in the middle east, or advertising your favorite band?

It's quite a bold statement, there's a time and a place for everything.

Why can't a fourteen year old make political stances?

For the same reason a fourteen year old can't be an actual politician? I'd like to see you take them seriously, or even vote for him/her. You would dismiss them as a joke.

 

[Zenith]

The Guns thread is that-a-way. If you want to argue the content, read first. All of your arguments have already been addressed.

For the same reason a fourteen year old can't be an actual politician? I'd like to see you take them seriously, or even vote for him/her. You would dismiss them as a joke.

?!

 

[arora]

It's quite a bold statement, there's a time and a place for everything.

There is nothing bold about asking to uphold the U.S. Constitution in a public school, are you serious? I know I know, they try their best to teach the kids anything but what made our country great.


Funny that you say a kid should not make political stands, the truth is teachers should stop piling there political views on the kids, 2 + 2 should not = Marx.

I'm going to say it again, we now think it's fine to criminalize children for t-shirts or any other sort of whatever? That is great, strip them of a life before they even get to start, second class citizens remind me of a time we once tried to get away from

 

[MrSulu]

I see my posts will just get twisted to whatever you guys want them to say.

I've already said in previous posts to arrest him was grossly wrong.

Unfortunately, you see your constitution like the bible, utterly inflexible, and always right in any circumstance without debate or common sense even though its hundreds of years old. 👍

/Done with thread

 

[arora]

Absolutely, I can never see anything good from taking a tool away from some while stockpiling more for another. It doesn't mater how old it is, common sense should tell you taking things away from people is never a good thing.

I didn't twist a thing btw, you are a socialist at best, maybe you can hold my hand and tell me how I should tie my shoe 👍

/I'm never done with a thread

 

[MrSulu]

Absolutely, I can never see anything good from taking a tool away from some while stockpiling more for another. It doesn't mater how old it is, common sense should tell you taking things away from people is never a good thing.

I didn't twist a thing btw, you are a socialist at best, maybe you can hold my hand and tell me how I should tie my shoe 👍

/I'm never done with a thread

Niiiiice! anyone who disagrees with me is a pinko! Real Classy 👍

Totally done.

 

[arora]

/totally not done it seems.

Indeed, not pinko, I said socialist and I know I'm right. What other reason could there be to say even if people where responsible you ideally do not think they should have a tool?

Common man.

 

[BobK]

Niiiiice! anyone who disagrees with me is a pinko! Real Classy 👍

Totally done.

I've disagreed with arora from time to time but I can't recall his ever insinuating I was a socialist, much less call me a pinko.

Just sayin'.

 

[MrSulu]

you are a socialist at best

Quite an accusation. I shudder to think what he considers me at worst

 

[Johnnypenso]

Quite an accusation. I shudder to think what he considers me at worst

As your Captain, I suggest you read the thread from start to finish to get up to speed on the various issues but as a general rule of thumb, any time one appears to casually dismiss constitutional rights in favour of just getting along , you're going to get a lot of kickback. You may get painted as a "socialist" because that's the typical attitude of socialists, sort of, "All the stuff you believe in you should relax about and change the way you do things so we can all get along, and all the stuff we believe in you should accept because we've already defined the issues so we can all get along, even if the Constitution says otherwise"

Carry on Mr. Sulu...