W.VA. teen arrested after "almost inciting riot"

  • Thread starter Nicksfix
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Given the scenario you asked me, I would not even do that. Just let it go, as to not start the slightest possible confrontation.
As a teacher, you're inevitably going to be drawn into conflict. That's not to say that you should actively seek it out, but you cannot afford to ignore it, avoid it, or pretend it doesn't exist. Nor can you allow a student to continue doing something that you consider to be dangerous, disruptive, or which the school has made it known that it wishes to see come to an end, just because you're afraid that the kid will claim his rights have been trampled on.

In the scenario I have outlined, the school has made it known that energy drinks and anything associated with them are not permitted in the school. This isn't just something that they've written down on a sheet of paper that is currently in a pile in the copy room, waiting to be distributed to everyone. The students have been told that energy drinks are banned in the school - they are not sold in the canteen (if they ever were to begin with), and students who are caught with them will be asked to throw them out.

Question for you prisonermonkeys. With you being a teacher, if this were you in this given case about this NRA t-shirt wearing kid. How would have you handled it ?

Lets assume that you are well aware of the dress code, but yet you are an anti gun proponent.
These are the first three things that I learned about how to be a teacher before I got into a classroom:

1) Never, ever be alone with a student.
2) Never, ever let emotion dictate your course of action.
3) Never, ever push a political opinion onto a student.

The third is the most important. For the sake of argument, let's just pretend that voting is and always has been compulsory in America, the way it is here (hear me out - there's a reason why I'm asking you to do this; you'll see it in a moment). Now, you have an eighth-grade civics class, and you are trying to teach them the difference between Republicans and Democrats.

This is an example of what you can say:
"The Democratic Party supports same-sex marriage. The Republican Party does not support it."
This, on the other hand, is what you cannot say:
"The Democratic Party is good, because they support same-sex marriage. The Republican Party is bad, because they do not support it."
The reason for this is because by the time those eighth-graders turn eighteen, there might be another election where same-sex marriage is one of the key issues. In this version of America, where voting is compulsory, if you have taught them that one party is good because they support it and the other party is bad because they do not, then you're influencing the vote with your own politics. Even if you only influence one student.

Now, you can offer your political opinion, particularly if you want to discuss an issue like same-sex marriage, but generally speaking, you're better off saying nothing unless a student asks you a direct question. If you do choose to do it, then you have to make it clear that this is your opinion, and not a fact.

That's really why I'm questioning this version of events where the teacher started shouting at a student because he himself did not agree with gun ownership. Teachers are instrumental in the development of young minds - many students spend more time with their teachers than they do with their parents, particualrly in households where both parents work. We're keenly aware of this, as it's something that has been drummed into us since a time before we even got into a classroom for the first time.

Would you approach this kid, or would you just let it be ? Would you approach this kid because you thought that the t-shirt in question was a borderline dress code violation ? Would you be confident enough in your decision to approach him, knowing that you may be treading on thin ice ... infringing on his rights and freedom of expression and possibly violating any school bylaws ?
If I felt that the student's shirt was questionable under the school dress code, then I probably would have approached him. But I would also have the sense to approach him before school starts if I could. A big part of the reactions in this case come down to the way the teacher approached him late in the day; he'd been fine until then, and then one teacher approached him at lunch, and that's where the trouble started.

In approaching him, I'd make it pretty clear that I felt the shirt was questionable under the dress code, and that the responsible thing to do would be to err on the side of caution. If I can think that, then other teacher might think it, too. I'd make it pretty clear up-front that this has nothing to do with my views on gun ownership, just that it's an issue to do with the dress code, and that there may be people out there who can misinterpret the message he wants to make.

If he resists, I'd appeal to his sense of knowing and respecting guns - he should know and respect the issues that come with them as well, and that maybe he should consider the idea that making a statement in support of gun ownership at school isn't the most appropriate way to make that statement.

Finally, it would be important to bear in mind that he is fourteen. He's concerned about an issue that he cares deeply about, but he hasn't necessarily thought the idea all the way though. So I'd try and get him to consider that there are people out there who feel just as strongly about the issue as he does, with the difference being that he holds an opposing position. They might see his actions as something that they can use to further their own cause. They could claim that "The NRA is getting kids to support gun ownership in schools!", and regardless of whether or not that is actually true, he shouldn't give them the opportunity to say it, which weakens their cause and strengthens his own.

If he still resists after all of that - particularly if he wants to make a political issue out of it by bringing up his rights - then I'd make it clear that if he wants to exercise his rights, then he needs to shoulder the responsibilities that come with them. If he cannot accept that responsibility, then he should not exercise that right to begin with, or choose another way to exercise it, one that has responsibilities that he can handle.

Which brings up another question .... why has the school in question here not yet made any response on this case ?

Are they buying time for something ? Are they dotting their I's and crossing their T's in preparation of the time when they do decide to voice their opinion ?

Are they embarrassed by the fact that they know their teacher was in the wrong and just don't want to face any public ridicule ?
They've probably sought legal advice of their own, and have decided to remain silent. There is no need for them to be drawn into a conflict with the kid that will only make headlines and further enable him. No, this will go behind closed doors. I very much doubt anything will come of it - legal costs would build up at such a rate that the kid and his family would reach a point of diminishing returns, where any damages paid out just go to cover the costs, making the whole affair an expensive waste of time. That's probably why the family went to the media: a quick settlement is the only way they'd get anything out of it, if that. There's a case here where the school might want to remove the kid from school, out of concerns that any student who disagrees with a teacher will simply launch legal action.
 
If he still resists after all of that - particularly if he wants to make a political issue out of it by bringing up his rights - then I'd make it clear that if he wants to exercise his rights, then he needs to shoulder the responsibilities that come with them. If he cannot accept that responsibility, then he should not exercise that right to begin with, or choose another way to exercise it, one that has responsibilities that he can handle.

And what are responsibilities for wearing a shirt showing a gun, which may or may not be against the dress code, to school?
 
It's not a dress code issue. It's a case of recognising that even if you are well within your rights to do or say something, doing or saying it may cause distress to someone else.

Too many people seem to think that "I'm exercising my rights" means "I can say or do what I want, and damn the consequences, whatever they may be".
 
I think we just fundamentally disagree about the issue here. I don't think it's an issue whether or not it's divisive. It's not the kid's problem if other people get offended by his shirt, he is not advocating or promoting violence at all. Understanding the responsibilities of exercisong his rights shouldn't mean being told to turn his shirt inside out.


As an aside, I think most people in this thread would probably be OK if the issue were handled the way you suggested you would.
 
Considering that the issue of guns in schools is highly divisive, and may potentially cause distress among students.

Similar to all the cases of students who were told to do same for wearing shirts related to drug use, rape, racism, women's rights, abortion, political views, and pretty much every subject ever? This is basic. You do not have a right to impose your will on somebody else because you were offended by their opinion.

It's not a dress code issue. It's a case of recognising that even if you are well within your rights to do or say something, doing or saying it may cause distress to someone else.

Too many people seem to think that "I'm exercising my rights" means "I can say or do what I want, and damn the consequences, whatever they may be".

You keep talking about this when you're the one defending the teacher who chose to make a scene in the cafeteria in front of the student body and the school who chose to have a student arrested and are being sued for doing this.

This is a theme in your arguments that basically comes down to "I don't like what you're saying/doing so I'll pretend like all negative outcomes are your responsibility."
 
Can we not go liberal this and conservative that for just one thread?

I digress, wearing a picture of a gun is not harmful and certainly won't encourage others to actually bring guns.
 
This is a theme in your arguments that basically comes down to "I don't like what you're saying/doing so I'll pretend like all negative outcomes are your responsibility."
And there is a theme in your arguments that basically comes down to "My rights are so involate that if I exercise them and violate your rights, then that's your problem".
 
prisonermonkeys
And there is a theme in your arguments that basically comes down to "My rights are so involate that if I exercise them and violate your rights, then that's your problem".

I'd love to hear how wearing a T-shirt violates anyone's rights. This isn't "fire" in a crowded theater.

I understand what you're getting at with people saying "well it's my right", but we are talking about a T-shirt. There aren't serious consequences and if someone is offended by the shirt that isn't the fault of the person wearing it.
 
I'm not sure I understand this, how is it possible to violate someone else's rights by exercising your own? If the school dress code permits something and that something is worn it can't violate someone else's right, they don't have a right to not be offended or distressed by someone exercising that right. If that something is not permitted and it is worn then they, the wearer, didn't have that right to begin with.
 
if someone is offended by the shirt that isn't the fault of the person wearing it.
But don't you think that the person wearing the shirt should at least consider that the idea that it might upset someone? Or should they just barge in with no thought for anyone else's sensibilities, and if someone does object, then the person wearing the shirt can say "that's your problem and not mine, and if you make it my problem, then you're depriving me of my rights"?

I find that to be at odds with the perception of America as a whole. In the immediate aftermath of the Boston marathon bombings, the most striking images were not of people running away in terror, but of people running back into the fray to help out, regardless of whether there was another bomb about to go off. And yet there are a handful of people in here who are changing that perception for me, presenting themselves as having the attitude of "I'm not responsible for my actions because I'm only exercising my rights".

Is there no situation where you would consciously and voluntarily give up a right for an hour - you're not surrendering it; you're making the decision not to use it, and nobody ever has to know - to ensure that someone else has their rights protected? Or do you genuinely have that "me, me, me" attitude that some of you are presenting?
 
But don't you think that the person wearing the shirt should at least consider that the idea that it might upset someone? Or should they just barge in with no thought for anyone else's sensibilities, and if someone does object, then the person wearing the shirt can say "that's your problem and not mine, and if you make it my problem, then you're depriving me of my rights"?

What if someone wants to wear a Jesus shirt or some other religious shirt?

It may offend those who do not believe in that region.

Should the wearer of the shirt know that others may be offended or should others accept other peoples views.
 
Is there no situation where you would consciously and voluntarily give up a right for an hour - you're not surrendering it; you're making the decision not to use it, and nobody ever has to know - to ensure that someone else has their rights protected? Or do you genuinely have that "me, me, me" attitude that some of you are presenting?

The "me, me, me" attitude belong to a person who sees that you are well within the dress code and haven't broken any rules, yet choose to be offended and are so offended they expect you to stop doing what you are doing because they are upset. 50 years ago, this young man would have had the same thing happen because his hair was too long, dress code or not. When you open the door to making decisions based on, "I'm upset therefore you have to change your behaviour" , it never ends. Someone will always be upset about something and once you give in one time and say, "Oh ok, I haven't broken any rules but you don't like my tshirt so I'll turn it inside out", then you have rubber stamped someone else's feelings dictating your behaviour and it just never ends. They will then expect you to always conform to their hurt feelings. This kid chose to take a stand and defend what he believes and should be commended for that rather than villified which is what it seems you want to do. Arresting him was ridiculous and I hope his family wins millions of $$$$ in the lawsuit.

I find your position to be at odds with America as a whole. Looking at things from the outside, America is first and foremost about the strength of the individual, about exercising individual rights and freedoms, about the freedom to express how you think and feel about anything, within the framework of the Constitution, and the laws of the jurisdiction you reside in. Increasingly I see attitudes like yours though, "I'm upset therefore you have to change". For 230 years it was more like, "I'm upset about your position, now here's my position to counter your arguments", and then a debate would ensue. This new America full of hurt feelings and straw man injustice attitudes sucks quite frankly and my own country is in the same boat. It worries me for our collective future.
 
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Is there no situation where you would consciously and voluntarily give up a right for an hour - you're not surrendering it; you're making the decision not to use it, and nobody ever has to know - to ensure that someone else has their rights protected? Or do you genuinely have that "me, me, me" attitude that some of you are presenting?

What rights were being violated in the first place by the kid wearing a T-shirt?
 
Considering that the issue of guns in schools is highly divisive, and may potentially cause distress among students.

Kids that age here don't give a crap what their peers might have on a t-shirt, they simply don't. It's the adults that care, parents and teachers are the ones raising a stink.

BTW Criminalizing our youth is something becoming rampant and should be considered unacceptable, go to jail for a t-shirt? At what age?

But hey, we have to fill all those private prisons somehow 👍
 
But don't you think that the person wearing the shirt should at least consider that the idea that it might upset someone?
What if he did? Would considering others' feelings mean he should automatically not where the shirt? People can take offense at anything, whether or not they're really justified in doing so (or rather justified in making a big deal out of it) is another issue.

Or should they just barge in with no thought for anyone else's sensibilities, and if someone does object, then the person wearing the shirt can say "that's your problem and not mine, and if you make it my problem, then you're depriving me of my rights"?
Rights end where another's begin. No one has to base their life around worrying about what will offend me or not, though they have the option to consider it. There will be consequences for whatever action is taken and possibly chances for further action on the part of the person making a statement.

It is certain that the only option you have when faced with opposition is not "Too bad for you, freedom!". You can try think like "Well, let's talk about it." And no, just because the disagreement may happen between a group of teens doesn't mean the latter will never happen. At the same time it does not have to go smoothly.

Is there no situation where you would consciously and voluntarily give up a right for an hour - you're not surrendering it; you're making the decision not to use it, and nobody ever has to know - to ensure that someone else has their rights protected?
Rights begin where another's rights end, so the above can't happen. What could happen is that someone withholds a right for the sake of another's feelings. It's up to the individual to decide on what to do.

I see nothing wrong with the shirt given the situation. I don't see too much wrong with how the situation was handled either, though in the end it seemed to get out of hand for one reason or another. I would have made it more a private issue had I felt that the shirt was a problem.

Or do you genuinely have that "me, me, me" attitude that some of you are presenting?
Defending rights isn't a me issue, it's an everyone issue, even if the person chanting for rights is incredibly selfish.
 
Defending rights isn't a me issue, it's an everyone issue, even if the person chanting for rights is incredibly selfish.
Then why do so many people come across as having the attitude of "my rights are more important than your rights", even when they're talking about the selfsame right?
 
Agreed, please point me to the question in your latest statement directed towards me.

And there is a theme in your arguments that basically comes down to "My rights are so involate that if I exercise them and violate your rights, then that's your problem".

To which I find Toronado's quote relevant.
 
I was asking you a question directly, on a tangent from the main discussion. The events in the school have nothing to do with it.
 
Then why do so many people come across as having the attitude of "my rights are more important than your rights", even when they're talking about the selfsame right?

How they come across, or what their motivation is doesn't really matter. Defending a right leaves that right available for everyone. Trying to favor one person over someone else would be the opposite of defending rights anyway. I don't see that happening here. I'm sure there are people who would take offense at the shirt. Their rights aren't being infringed. Maybe if guns were expressly banned by the dress code I would look at it differently, but I don't see what part of the code the shirt violates. On the forums here, you could make a case for some people favoring one party, but I don't see an argument to deny anyone their rights.

Just because people might be disturbed by the shirt does not mean it can't be worn. Other people's reactions are a valid concern, but they don't really change what can or can't be done.
 
How they come across, or what their motivation is doesn't really matter.
Yes, it does. Because it speaks to our values - and when someone values one person's freedom to exercise a right over another person's freedom to exercise that same right, it's a problem.
 
One person's rights being upheld does not mean another's are violated, really.

As for the dress code, I have to say I'm not against something concrete say, no shirts with written language for instance. but in this case, that shirt was not provocative or inciting of anything other then an over reacting teacher. Surprise surprise :rolleyes:
 
If I was concerned about not offending any person, in any way, with such numerous backgrounds, unknown anger triggers and religious beliefs, I would not be able to wear anything without at least offending someone. How can you know beforehand what will hurt others' feelings?

The kid wanted to express his opinion on something through a T-shirt, a teacher thinks it could offend people, and tells him to take it off in front of the whole school. He did this instead of discussing the issue in private. To me, this sounds like the teacher was trying to make a political statement, by attempting to force him to take off the shirt in the cafeteria. That may not have been what his intention was, but at least that is how it comes across to me.
 
But is that happening?
Judging by what some people are saying in this thread, they certainly wouldn't be bothered by it - so long as the person exercising their rights can prove that they were exercising them, then it doesn't matter if they are denying someone else their own rights. It's a case of "my rights are more important than your rights", and then they have the hide to claim that they are defending those rights.
 
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