Wait, what?

[Terronium-12]

Before addressing the focus of this thread, you're wondering why you've come here, right?

This thread relates to the upcoming Marvel films that serve as a precursor to The Avengers; next year Captain America: The First Avenger, and Thor are coming to theaters in May and July, respectively. While I'm looking forward to both (Captain America more then Thor if I'm to be perfectly honest) one thing has dawned on me and is going to bother me until it's resolved. Chris Evans, the guy who portrayed Johnny in both Fantastic Four films has been given the role to also portray Steve.

...

What?

What kind of a social time paradox is that? How can one person play two totally different people in the same universe? Or, is it a different universe? It's a common fact that the current Marvel films borrow their storyline and character depictions from the Marvel Ultimate universe (which I'll refer to as the "Ultiverse" from hereon out); I mean, look at Samuel Jackson portraying himself as Nick Fury (literally, the Ultimate Fury was modeled after Jackson) that alone is enough proof to end any confusion about that. However, it brings up another question - were both Fantastic Four movies portraying in the canon Marvel universe, or the so to speak non-canon Ultiverse? If it was the Ultiverse, then, like I asked before, what kind of paradox is that?

I ask because I honestly don't know F4 as well as I know most other superheroes, or superhero teams. And, yes, I realize that only people who read comic books and/or are geeks will ever consider/think about this, but it's something that for me, would have me in theater thinking to myself "How is this even happening?"

Discuss...

 

[McLaren]

I'm pretty sure Marvel does not consider the FF movies to be part of the universe of films they are creating just like they probably won't be considering the Spider Man movies either.

For one thing, the FF movies were not very amazing like the current array of Marvel films, save for maybe The Hulk. Second, the FF movies like Spider Man again, didn't build up any steam to the upcoming Avengers movie, like Marvel is making sure Iron Man, Cpt. America, etc. all do. Being so, if Marvel really want them to appear, they will either remake the Fantastic Four movie so it does blend into the Avengers or (most likely), just bring them in during the Avengers movie w/ no background as to how they came to be (though it doesn't need to be explained honestly; the first FF movie did that part decent enough).

One thing I'm noticing looking through The Avengers comic history is that the Fantastic Four members never seemed to have been members at the same time, so I'm guessing they're not going to be an issue anyway for the movie itself.

However, I am curious as to what timeline the Avengers movie is basing itself on. Is Marvel just re-doing the creation of The Avengers in a different way for the movie because there are some characters like The Wasp listed as a founder (while Nick Fury isn't) in the original comic and I haven't seen any mention of him being in the 2012 film.

I think YSSMAN will probably be able to shed more light on Marvel plans to who & who not to incorporate into the movie.

 

[Terronium-12]

I'm pretty sure Marvel does not consider the FF movies to be part of the universe of films they are creating just like they probably won't be considering the Spider Man movies either.

For one thing, the FF movies were not very amazing like the current array of Marvel films, save for maybe The Hulk. Second, the FF movies like Spider Man again, didn't build up any steam to the upcoming Avengers movie, like Marvel is making sure Iron Man, Cpt. America, etc. all do. Being so, if Marvel really want them to appear, they will either remake the Fantastic Four movie so it does blend into the Avengers or (most likely), just bring them in during the Avengers movie w/ no background as to how they came to be (though it doesn't need to be explained honestly; the first FF movie did that part decent enough).

I hadn't thought of or even considered that.

When I found out Evans got the role for Rogers, one of the first things I thought was "Wait, WTF is going on here?"

I must admit though, I do like the retro look of the Cap'n.

I wonder if Bucky is going to have a place this time?

However, I am curious as to what timeline the Avengers movie is basing itself on. Is Marvel just re-doing the creation of The Avengers in a different way for the movie because there are some characters like The Wasp listed as a founder (while Nick Fury isn't) in the original comic and I haven't seen any mention of him being in the 2012 film.

The movie itself is shaping up to be a hybrid of both the canon Marvel universe and the Ultiverse, that much I know for certain. There are a few changes here and there (obviously) and one thing I'm actually wondering is whether or not The Sentry is going to be on the team, or even mentioned for that matter.

They might play it off as a four person super team.

 

[McLaren]

I hadn't thought of or even considered that.

When I found out Evans got the role for Rogers, one of the first things I thought was "Wait, WTF is going on here?"

I must admit though, I do like the retro look of the Cap'n.

I wonder if Bucky is going to have a place this time?

Possibly. I have already read that Loki, Hawkeye, & Dum Dum Dungan will all appear in the movie, so it looks like anyone is a possibility.

 

[TB]

Don't forget that Ryan Reynolds is slated to play both Deadpool and Green Lantern, too.

 

[FoolKiller]

I'll make it easy for you:

Fantastic Four was created by Fox as a licensed brand. The current Avengers continuity is created solely by Marvel (and Disney now as they are merged). The Fantastic Four movies will never have any tie-in to the current Avengers continuity films Marvel is currently working on, and thus you will never have to fear that the two Fantastic Four films will ever cross over into the Avengers storyline. If Fox ever gives up the license for F4 then Marvel may incorporate them with a new list of actors. But that requires Fox to not use any of the license in any way for X number of years (I do not know the value of X).

Similarly, Spiderman is licensed to Sony and X-Men to Fox. The current Spiderman and X-Men films will never cross over into the Avengers continuity.



As for Bucky:

http://movies.ign.com/articles/108/1081582p1.html

Captain America won't be fighting the Nazis solo. The character of Bucky, Cap's partner in the comic books, has been cast in The First Avenger: Captain America - and it's someone who almost played the title role.

According to the Hollywood Reporter, Sebastian Stan (Kings / Gossip Girl) will play James Buchanan Barnes, AKA Bucky, a character from the classic Captain America comics of the 1940s. Stan was one of the finalists to actually play Captain America himself, before Marvel ultimately cast Chris Evans in that role.

And Ryan Reynolds name may be tied to Deadpool, but he has a whole lot of work to do before I am ready to accept that he is Deadpool after the atrocity that was X-Men Origins: Wolverine. Ryan Reynolds is Hal Jordan, and also happens to play that weird monstrosity Fox has created.

 

[McLaren]

Similarly, Spiderman is licensed to Sony and X-Men to Fox. The current Spiderman and X-Men films will never cross over into the Avengers continuity.

Does this mean that the characters themselves like Wolverine & such will not be able to appear in The Avengers if Fox & Sony hold rights?

 

[Terronium-12]

Does this mean that the characters themselves like Wolverine & such will not be able to appear in The Avengers if Fox & Sony hold rights?

Another good question as we don't know exactly what team era the Avengers movie is going by. The average movie-goer won't have any clue who the rest of the members are (admittedly, none of whom I can remember right now ) so, as I said before....they might play it off as a four person super team.

 

[FoolKiller]

Does this mean that the characters themselves like Wolverine & such will not be able to appear in The Avengers if Fox & Sony hold rights?

Unless Marvel manages to work out a deal or the contract expires, that is correct. It really is a shame because I would love to see the Spiderman - Nick Fury personality conflicts. Or watch Wolverine basically say that he doesn't take orders from any poster boy.

But Marvel made these deals years ago and until they run out this is where they are stuck. With the exception of Hulk, none of these third-parties have any incentive to let these franchises go. As we have seen with Wolverine, and likely soon the new Spiderman film, these studios will even put out crap just to maintain their hold on the licenses. Marvel shares merchandising profits, so it is actually in Marvel's best interest to support these films and hope they do well, even if it does prevent them from directly cashing in on the movie itself.

I have been trying to find the details of the movie deals, but we are talking 10+ year old contracts so I can't find news of the original deals when they happened through Google without much more digging.

 

[McLaren]

All I can say then, is to boo to that. Here's hoping a deal is worked out for everybody's gain.

 

[FoolKiller]

All I can say then, is to boo to that. Here's hoping a deal is worked out for everybody's gain.

The thing to keep in mind though is that Marvel does have a catalog of thousands of un-licensed characters that can be made into films to keep us distracted in the interim. A few of the big favorites were lost in their early licensing attempts but many of the lesser known characters with great stories are available.

 

[YSSMAN]

I think most of the basics are summed up. Until the contracts with Sony and Fox expire, franchises like X-Men, Fantastic Four and Spider-Man are their own deals. It is unfortunate, especially when Marvel Studios has done so well controlling their IPs, which are now working to create the new Avengers Universe. Eventually I would think that Disney would work to get everything organized under a single house, but it would probably be closer to the end of the decade before that happens.

Just some random points off the top of my head...

Continuity in the Avengers Universe (Marvel Controlled)

Currently, both Iron Man and Iron Man 2 take place just before what happens in The Incredible Hulk, although you can see in Iron Man 2 that some small bits of Hulk show up at the end of the movie. This of course plays nicely into the after-credits sequence at the end of Hulk when Stark, as a "frontman" for S.H.I.E.L.D goes into the bar to convince the General that Hulk should be on the team. My understanding is that Thor is going to take place right near the end of Hulk, or shortly thereafter, although I'm not sure how the story will fit into the continuity that we know of.

There is a bit of confusion as to whether or not there will be an Iron Man 3, and whether or not it will take place before or after the events of Captain America. Of course, we know that much of that film will be an origin story piece with a major portion of it taking place during WWII (which will ROCK I might add - Can't wait to see stuff at SDCC'10), so I can't imagine too much happening in the present aside from Cap being unfrozen and being taken in under Fury's wing. Where Iron Man 3 would go is really up in the air at this point, although I know Favreau has talked about doing The Mandrin as the villain, and I could easily imagine it having something to do with China developing an Iron Man MKIV rival.

Eventually everything comes together with The Mighty Avengers, and with Hawkeye being added to the mix already, I'd say things are coming along smoothly. Word is that the story will have to do with S.H.I.E.L.D and The Avengers fighting off a Skrull invasion, which seems a bit forward-thinking (given Secret Invasion just happening), but I'm not sure what else they would really want to do at this point. I'm under the assumption that Avengers will probably have at least one sequel, but will more than likely serve as a jump-off point for a pretty hardcore S.H.I.E.L.D film (anything with Sam Jackson is worth it), and presumably a Hawkeye/Black Widow project as well. There has been talk of a Hank Pym and Wasp film for a while, with names like David Duchovny and Eva Longoria being thrown around, but I have no idea where that project has ended up.

...Whew...

So, TL;DR: The Mighty Avengers will probably follow a story arc more like what we saw in Ultimates.

Chances are that we'll know a lot more come time for Comic Con this summer. I'm going to be doing my damndest to at least sit in on the Thor panel, which I assume will be filled with a lot of talk about continuity plans and so on. Simply put, Marvel knows where it wants to go, and with Disney now footing the bill for everything after Thor, things are going to get crazy.

Deadpool - Whaddup Wit Dat?
(Read that in a yellow text bubble, please)

Ryan Renolds is still on for a Deadpool film... After Green Lantern is finished. Generally speaking, he is pretty enthusiastic for the character and what he is supposed to be doing. My understanding is that, with this project, its going to be entirely separate from what we saw in X-Men Origins. That means he will not look like a melted GI:Joe with razorblades in his arms, he will don the black/red ninja outfit, the fourth wall will be broken consistently, and there will be plenty of outrageous pop-culture references to boot. When you get a pretty popular actor behind a character, chances are that things will get done properly. IMO, with Deadpool, its more about the witty writing than anything else.


Known Reboots (As of Now)

• Spider-Man by Sony, going for a "younger" Ultimate-style storyline in Parker's High School days
• X-Men: First Class by Fox, going waaay back to the early days with the first studens of Xavier and so on. When I say "waaaay back" I mean, like, Xavier and Magneto in their 30's. Which, now that I think about it, doesn't make as much sense as I thought...
• Fantastic Four by Fox, presumably with an entirely new cast, a new story as well. Not sure how they will manage this given the madness that was the first two films. I just wanna see Doctor Doom blow stuff up.
• Ghostrider, presumably by Marvel-Disney. No idea how this will work out.
• Daredevil, presumably by Marvel-Disney as well. Again, no idea how this will work out
• The Punisher. Its been talked about, but after the trainwreck that was the last film (odd how this works over, and over, eh?), I'm not sure how it will happen. Especially in a Disney-controlled future.

Personally, I don't really know of any other Marvel IPs that are going toward movie town just yet. The only other big, primary characters left to do are Doctor Strange and Prince Namor, and those would likely come long after The Mighty Avengers goes down. I've seen rumors about a Luke Cage project, same with Spider-Woman, but I'm personally doubting whether or not those would ever happen.


Marvel-Disney vs Warner-DC

My guess is that DC is waiting patiently to see how things work out with the overwhelming majority of these new Marvel films before they get neck-deep in universe building as the others have. Part of the problem right now is that while Nolan has created a masterpiece with Batman, and will like do a repeat with he and his brothers work on Superman, it sets an awfully high, perhaps too realistic precedent for the rest of the DC films. It will be interesting to see how both Superman and Green Lantern work out, especially when knowing that Batman 3 is on the way for 2012. Furthermore, however they're going to get Wonder Woman and Flash to work out as well.

Marvel has done a really good job of placing their IPs in the hands of good directors, many of whom are fans of the material that they are working with in the first place. Furthermore, they've made their IPs modern, relevant, and attractive - even to people who know nothing about the comics. I feel like DC will have to work pretty hard to replicate that, despite dominating my childhood with their various animated series on television. But, that may be where DC's strength ultimately comes from. With a more focused look at a smaller group of characters and franchises, they may walk away with a more polished product overall. DC's catalog doesn't have nearly as many flagship titles as Marvel, but certainly has a lot more of the artistic, story-driven pieces that will translate better to film than most of the Marvel work.

 

[Terronium-12]

Such a lengthy post, and yet I read every word. Probably because like you, I'm just another comic book nerd.

Anywho, Brandon Routh has to be (Yes, has to be) tied to the new Superman movie. Why? One, he looks (incredibly, might I add) a lot like Christopher Reeve. Two, he made the character his own and wasn't really trying to replicate what Reeves brought to the character. Three, he was able to pull off the signature "Smile at the audience as the movie closes" that Reeves coined, while looking a lot like him, again. Seriously, if Routh isn't tied to it I'll be really removed from the entire thing as he was just so perfect for the role; and Kevin Spacey...well, let's just say the only person whom I would accept as Luthor over him is Michael Rosenbaum, end of story.

As for The Avengers (now that almost everything has been cleared up on my behalf) there still remains the little aspect of whether or not it's going to be played off as a four person super team, or will they just introduce other members on a whim? And seeing as my early assumptions were correct, and this is all taking place in the Ultiverse I can pretty much abandon all hope of seeing Sentry on the team (what a bummer because any person who can go fist to fist with an extremely enraged Hulk to the point where both of them revert back to their normal state of being is worth seeing anywhere. Oh, and did I mention he's almost seemingly omnipotent?) but enough of that because I won't be seeing him (hopefully he'll get a feature film of his own). After The Avengers has taken off, I can easily see the option of doing the Infinity Crisis story arc (how freakin' awesome would that be?) with Thanos just slapping everyone to the side with absolutely no exhausted effort.

Boy, oh boy.

I'm going to stop now before my head explodes from all of the possibilities. I'll close by saying "Yes!" to everything above.

 

[niky]

Actually... I've felt that DC's characters translate less well to the big screen than Marvel's younger crew.

Most DC characters are golden-age... and as such are saddled with villains straight out of the funny pages. This problem plagued the various Batman movies (strangely, as he's the big DC nameplate that's easiest to modernize), until Chris Nolan managed to reboot him in a more modern style.

Marvel has had fresh content come in over the decades, and the X-Men series is as modern as any of the big franchises gets.

I hope they do Green Lantern justice... as with the incredibly huge cast of characters and cosmic backdrop, it's possible for them to turn it into an incredible SFX bonanza.

I don't see (and will likely never see) the lack of FF and X-Men tie-ins to be a problem. Crossovers are messy things. I generally don't like them in comic books, as it's hard for different writers and artists to get a handle on characters they're not familiar with, and there's the potential that they'll be a mess in movies, where the lead time between issues isn't measured in weeks, but in years...

 

[FoolKiller]

I don't see (and will likely never see) the lack of FF and X-Men tie-ins to be a problem. Crossovers are messy things. I generally don't like them in comic books, as it's hard for different writers and artists to get a handle on characters they're not familiar with, and there's the potential that they'll be a mess in movies, where the lead time between issues isn't measured in weeks, but in years...

I kind of agree here. Creating a universe is one thing so that you can give nods to the other movies and completely acknowledge their existence. It definitely works better than Spiderman's approach of only one super hero in the whole world. I think the only character that can pull that off is Superman because he is not human, but then you have to open the story to other alien interactions.

Before now hero movies always felt like they were trying to tell us that we were looking at our own world where something interesting has happened with this one person. Creating a universe where your films acknowledge the existence of each other openly tells the audience that this is not the world we live in, but a different one where all these things happen.

What this also does is leave room for Marvel to establish certain characters as bit players in one film and then see what the audience reaction is. If the audience liked them then you can have them as either a small recurrence in other films or eventually give them their own film.

So, the universe concept works well, but crossovers that aren't tied to a team film should be minimized. I think that Wolverine showed what happens when you have too many large characters put into a film without proper reference. By the time you are finished their character names aren't even properly established.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Before addressing the focus of this thread, you're wondering why you've come here, right?

This thread relates to the upcoming Marvel films that serve as a precursor to The Avengers; next year Captain America: The First Avenger, and Thor are coming to theaters in May and July, respectively. While I'm looking forward to both (Captain America more then Thor if I'm to be perfectly honest) one thing has dawned on me and is going to bother me until it's resolved. Chris Evans, the guy who portrayed Johnny in both Fantastic Four films has been given the role to also portray Steve.

...

What?

What kind of a social time paradox is that? How can one person play two totally different people in the same universe? Or, is it a different universe? It's a common fact that the current Marvel films borrow their storyline and character depictions from the Marvel Ultimate universe (which I'll refer to as the "Ultiverse" from hereon out); I mean, look at Samuel Jackson portraying himself as Nick Fury (literally, the Ultimate Fury was modeled after Jackson) that alone is enough proof to end any confusion about that. However, it brings up another question - were both Fantastic Four movies portraying in the canon Marvel universe, or the so to speak non-canon Ultiverse? If it was the Ultiverse, then, like I asked before, what kind of paradox is that?

I ask because I honestly don't know F4 as well as I know most other superheroes, or superhero teams. And, yes, I realize that only people who read comic books and/or are geeks will ever consider/think about this, but it's something that for me, would have me in theater thinking to myself "How is this even happening?"

Discuss...

Don't worry - THE AVENGERS is being written by Joss Whedon, which automatically makes it about 1000% more intelligent than FANTASTIC FOUR without even turning a page of the script. The difference in quality will be so noiceable that you won't even recognise Evans.

 

[niky]

http://www.pvponline.com/2005/05/10/tue-may-10/

Couldn't resist.

Creating a universe where your films acknowledge the existence of each other openly tells the audience that this is not the world we live in, but a different one where all these things happen.

And therein lies the problem. If you have too many heroes and too many franchises sharing space on one movie screen, the uniqueness just wears thin.

To quote Syndrome from the Incredibles: "When everybody is special, no one is..."

I think that Wolverine showed what happens when you have too many large characters put into a film without proper reference. By the time you are finished their character names aren't even properly established.

The problem with Wolverine was that they were trying to do too much with too much and failed to contain the muchness. Presenting a more pared back story with fewer characters and more development would have made it infinitely better. Having it start out as a team movie took too much focus off of the main character.

The lack of story development is my beef with Black Widow's inclusion in Iron Man 2. She lacked a specific role in the Iron Man "family" of characters and was more filler than anything else. If she had been more fully fleshed out... more human... (introduce her martial arts skills in a sneaky way... don't do it in a fight scene at the beginning of the movie!)... she would have fit better.

Avengers will be an incredible challenge to get right. So many diverse characters... so little screen time to make it all gel... With the X-Men, it took two movies to make it work (and a third to bring it all crashing down...)... but that was a linear progression between X1 and X2... Avengers will have to bring together threads from at least four separate movies!

So hopeful, yet so...

 

[niky]

Holy Gravedig Batman! (Warning: Might be spoilerish if you haven't watched Captain America and don't know a thing about him)

So... the final pieces of the Avengers puzzle is complete. And we get a taste of the Avengers trailer with Captain America. But from what we've seen in the past few movies... what do we know?

Definitely, we'll be seeing Loki... he's in the trailer. And I have a sneaking suspicion that the Red Skull and the Cosmic Cube will be featured in a return engagement. There are no notable villains from Iron Man still left alive, and we haven't seen the Hulk in the trailer though we know he's there.

I'm still doubtful about the whole enterprise... whoever does the directing and the script. You have one deadly serious superhero, the Hulk... the Last Boy Scout, Captain America, mister adlib, Iron Man, and Goldilocks himself, Thor. A very diverse set of characters and tones to contain within one movie. Add to that Hawkeye and Black Widow... up to now, only bit players in the other movies, but at least they're set-pieces that fit within SHIELD easily.

Not all of the previous movies have been wildly successful from the standpoint of a fan... Iron Man (the first one, at least) and Captain America stand out as the more successful ones... and it's hard to see how they're going to reconcile everything. With Joss Whedon as writer, I expect this will be more in the vein of Iron Man... only more intelligent.

Theories: The Red Skull and Cosmic Cube are not lost completely... they've either been transported to the halls of Asgard or the world of the Frost Giants, or somewhere in the middle of nowhere. Skull meets Loki, either here or both fall back to Earth through some as yet unexplained metaphysical means, and Loki sees the Cube as his ticket back to Asgard.

Or likely, Skull becomes godlike with the Cube's powers, and a powerless Loki tries to help the Avengers stop him. It's hard to say what other Super-Villains or threats show up... and thankfully they're keeping tight-lipped about it... but they've got to do something pretty good with this to ensure a continuing franchise.

 

[Terronium-12]

You know what?

What if, and I highly doubt this'll happen anyway, one of the central antagonists is Sentry? He's another Super Solider (of sorts) like Steve...except to a much, much greater extent. He could be linked somehow to the Cube.

I'd pay to see Sentry tear ass.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

With Joss Whedon as writer, I expect this will be more in the vein of Iron Man... only more intelligent.

He's already said he wants to make a superhero version of Glengarry Glen Ross, which will basically be the Avengers using underhanded tactics to carry out their mission.

 

[niky]

Super-soldier serum has already played a role in "The Hulk", right? So it's not beyond reason to expect it to feature in this film in some way.

Underhanded tactics? So... more like Mission Impossible (the real one, not the Cruise-mobile)...?

Kinda hard to justify when you have three heroes who could tear a tank to pieces and one who, though not that strong, can still kick a man across a room.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Wait wait wait. I got a few problems with this thread already.

Theories: The Red Skull and Cosmic Cube are not lost completely... they've either been transported to the halls of Asgard or the world of the Frost Giants, or somewhere in the middle of nowhere. Skull meets Loki, either here or both fall back to Earth through some as yet unexplained metaphysical means, and Loki sees the Cube as his ticket back to Asgard.

Or likely, Skull becomes godlike with the Cube's powers, and a powerless Loki tries to help the Avengers stop him. It's hard to say what other Super-Villains or threats show up... and thankfully they're keeping tight-lipped about it... but they've got to do something pretty good with this to ensure a continuing franchise.

Spoiler

Tom Hiddleston, who plays Loki, said, "How pleasant an experience is it to disappear into a wormhole that was created by some super-nuclear explosion of his own making? I think by the time Loki shows up he's seen a few things and has bigger things in mind than just his brother and Asgard..."

His comments are in line with the comics which Loki (indirectly) required the formation of the Avengers [in an alternate universe, not the 616 one] by causing a chain of natural disasters and brought the Kree-Skrull war to Earth.

Another good question as we don't know exactly what team era the Avengers movie is going by. The average movie-goer won't have any clue who the rest of the members are (admittedly, none of whom I can remember right now) so, as I said before....they might play it off as a four person super team.

You got to remember that there is another "avengers founder" film coming down the pipe AFTER the Avengers, Ant-Man(Henry Pym), that is being directed by Edgar Wright of Scott Pilgrim fame, that will feature two founders, the Wasp and Giant Man.

The casting challenge for Weldon, who loves to show off female heroes in his films, is that casting a Wasp that both he and Wright would like to work with.

As things stand now, Weldon does not have any eye candy besides Johansson.

 

[FoolKiller]

First of all, Niky, you may want to add a spoiler warning at the top of your grave digging post for anyone who hasn't been keeping up with the individual films now that we are discussing events from five different films and how we believe they will affect The Avengers.

That said, I am not using spoiler tags in this thread.

I'm still doubtful about the whole enterprise... whoever does the directing and the script. You have one deadly serious superhero, the Hulk... the Last Boy Scout, Captain America, mister adlib, Iron Man, and Goldilocks himself, Thor. A very diverse set of characters and tones to contain within one movie. Add to that Hawkeye and Black Widow... up to now, only bit players in the other movies, but at least they're set-pieces that fit within SHIELD easily.

Hawkeye and Black Widow are basically SHIELD babysitters for the metahumans (just close your eyes and count Stark as meta). Captain America will act as the enforcement muscle of SHIELD, but there is no guarantee to SHIELD that he will be in line with them.

Also, it is important to remember that Hulk is still on the lose and although the final scene of the film suggests that Banner may be controlling him, the military, and now SHIELD, still believe that he is out of control with Banner having no ability to keep him under control. Before we get Hulk we must first catch Hulk.

Theories: The Red Skull and Cosmic Cube are not lost completely... they've either been transported to the halls of Asgard or the world of the Frost Giants, or somewhere in the middle of nowhere. Skull meets Loki, either here or both fall back to Earth through some as yet unexplained metaphysical means, and Loki sees the Cube as his ticket back to Asgard.

When the Cosmic Cube sucks Red Skull up into a wormhole/space-time tear/whatever, you see the clouds that surround Asgard in the background.

I believe we just found out how Thor returns to Earth without a Bifrost bridge. It is also possibly how Loki returns. And Loki was seen in the hidden scene at the end of Thor. Even without seeing him in the trailer for Avengers we know he is back. If Red Skull joins him, I wouldn't be surprised.

Or likely, Skull becomes godlike with the Cube's powers, and a powerless Loki tries to help the Avengers stop him. It's hard to say what other Super-Villains or threats show up... and thankfully they're keeping tight-lipped about it... but they've got to do something pretty good with this to ensure a continuing franchise.

It is possible that they deal with lose threads individually in separate films. I believe this one would be perfect to have Loki stir up some trouble with Hulk (Using the wayback machine to get this group origin) and SHIELD gets the team together to catch him. Then this leads them to chase after Loki.

Next film we could have Red Skull, or another Captain America villain that I am positive they left an opening for (more on that later). Or both.

You know what?

What if, and I highly doubt this'll happen anyway, one of the central antagonists is Sentry? He's another Super Solider (of sorts) like Steve...except to a much, much greater extent. He could be linked somehow to the Cube.

I'd pay to see Sentry tear ass.

I had someone else in mind:

We saw Bucky fall. We did not see Bucky die.

Wait wait wait. I got a few problems with this thread already.

Tom Hiddleston, who plays Loki, said, "How pleasant an experience is it to disappear into a wormhole that was created by some super-nuclear explosion of his own making? I think by the time Loki shows up he's seen a few things and has bigger things in mind than just his brother and Asgard..."

His comments are in line with the comics which Loki (indirectly) required the formation of the Avengers [in an alternate universe, not the 616 one] by causing a chain of natural disasters and brought the Kree-Skrull war to Earth.

Loki has already been seen working his ways after the Thor credits, and going after something very powerful.

You got to remember that there is another "avengers founder" film coming down the pipe AFTER the Avengers, Ant-Man(Henry Pym), that is being directed by Edgar Wright of Scott Pilgrim fame, that will feature two founders, the Wasp and Giant Man.

The casting challenge for Weldon, who loves to show off female heroes in his films, is that casting a Wasp that both he and Wright would like to work with.

As things stand now, Weldon does not have any eye candy besides Johansson.

An Ant-Man film does not necessitate Ant-Man in the first Avengers film. Wasp and Ant/Giant Man could be an add-on in a second Avengers film. Also Whedon has three four five six supporting females to incorporate with Johnassen as Black Widow, Gwenyth Paltrow as Pepper Potts, Natalie Portman as Jane Foster, Kat Dennings as Darcy Lewis, Amanda Righetti as Sharon Carter, and whomever he chooses to cast as Betty Ross.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Loki has already been seen working his ways after the Thor credits, and going after something very powerful.

The Cosmic Cube, right? That was the only item that was powerful enough distort reality enough to shift a person from one reality to another as Captain America proved.

Spoiler

The item is currently lost in the Atlantic.

An Ant-Man film does not necessitate Ant-Man in the first Avengers film. Wasp and Ant/Giant Man could be an add-on in a second Avengers film. Also Whedon has three four five six supporting females to incorporate with Johnassen as Black Widow, Gwenyth Paltrow as Pepper Potts, Natalie Portman as Jane Foster, Kat Dennings as Darcy Lewis, Amanda Righetti as Sharon Carter, and whomever he chooses to cast as Betty Ross.

Please note my choice of words, sir. I said heroes not supporting females intentionally to explain my point. And yes, in the 616 universe, Giant Man was a founding member of the Avengers, a point made clear that the film makers are ignoring.

 

[niky]

Sorry for the spoilerisms... I'm trying not to give anything away you couldn't gleam by seeing the trailers and reading the IMDB logs.

Cubes Cosmic:

Spoiler

That cube was retrieved by Howard Stark for the Government. The big question... why didn't they use it? Or to be more precise: Why haven't they used it at this point? Is it the Cosmic Cube that gave Stark his ideas for the generator that his son perfected? Why doesn't the US government have ray guns and all that stuff since they got it? Or maybe they lost it at some point?

Whedon only has two female "agents", Carter and Black Widow, and only one is a "super"... the film could do with some supporting female supers... maybe even a Scarlet Witch or a Spiderwoman... though I doubt those would translate well on-screen.... The Wasp is a possibility... only, please, Joss, don't make her shrink!

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Underhanded tactics? So... more like Mission Impossible (the real one, not the Cruise-mobile)...?

Whedon's words, not mine.

 

[niky]

I'm hopeful. Whedon can definitely do battles... and amongst director-writers, he can definitely do characters and dialogue. I'm just wondering if this particular movie will suit his style.

 

[FoolKiller]

The Cosmic Cube, right? That was the only item that was powerful enough distort reality enough to shift a person from one reality to another as Captain America proved.

That we've seen. Clearly Asgardians contain the ability to do it as guardians of the 9 realms. Don't forget that Loki found ways to bring the frost giants to Asgard without being seen crossing the bifrost bridge. Loki could also visit Thor without his physical body being present.

Please note my choice of words, sir. I said heroes not supporting females intentionally to explain my point. And yes, in the 616 universe, Giant Man was a founding member of the Avengers, a point made clear that the film makers are ignoring.

I was responding more to the eye candy statement. Plenty of eye candy is available. But as far as heroes, you are correct.

It is hard to tell which origin the filmmakers are following. It seems to be more of a combination of them. If I had to guess, I would think that heroes whose whole power is in their mass-shifting abilities might be something they want to test before incorporating them. I wouldn't be surprised if they do introduce us to Henry Pym as just a scientist though.

I'm hopeful. Whedon can definitely do battles... and amongst director-writers, he can definitely do characters and dialogue. I'm just wondering if this particular movie will suit his style.

Let's see what we got:

Wise-cracking, fun-loving, somewhat immature guy.
Moody, ultra-serious tough guy.
Ultra-good, boy scout character out of his element.
Hot chick.
Nervous scientist/someone that can kick ass when set off.
Guy that never misses his target.


Quite a band of misfits.

Hang on, I think I've seen something similar:

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Whedon can definitely do battles...

He can, but if you watch the director's commentary for the "Firefly" episode The Train Job he and co-writer Tim Minear reckon that "nothing is harder or more boring that writing a fight scene" because you have to find something for everyone to do (in this particular fight, Wash rides an ATV into some bad guys because he was in the scene and had to take part in the fight, but they were pressed for ideas for what he could do), and also because you have to be conscious of where everyone is at any given time. If you've seen X-MEN: FIRST CLASS, that film is particularly guilty of this - during the final fight, two minor characters are fighting, but then the story cuts to Magneto going into the submarine, and the film forgets the first two characters it was following. By the time it finally gets back to them, the audience has largely forgotten them, too.

I'm just wondering if this particular movie will suit his style.

Whedon got his start writing comics for Marvel, particularly for the X-Men. He still occasionally contributes.

 

[niky]

We're missing the goofy, nerdy chick type that everyone loves... unless they make Betsy Ross goofy...

EDIT: True... that was one of the big problems with the final battle in First Class... though they did the rest of the action scenes, which were more of the James-Bond-ish sneaky types, spot on.

-

X-Men is definitely within Whedon's style range. The Avengers... well... you have more basic archetypes than in the X-Men... more of the old-fashioned Superhero-type than the tortured, complex character types...

At least RDJ and Thor give him scope for wisecracking... but I wonder how he'll handle Cap and the Hulk.