Ward's Top Engines for 2005

[Jay]

and I'm pretty sure the Veyrons were developed in-house. My god. And you say I'm blind to facts.

I have read that the turbo's used on Veyron are from Mitsubishi or Mitsubishi spec. Very similar to what you find on a standard Evo lancer.

 

[niky]

This is just getting ridiculuous. Might as well lock it, Blazin'.

@PlagueGhost: 10 seconds... that's how close the BMW's excellent and very VERY expensive electronic nannies get it to a sportscar that costs just about half as much. Sure, it's nice for a sedan, but it's a very expensive one.

The SRT4 may not be the best handling FF ever, but it's a very good one. Neons, in fact, are generally liked for their good handling capabilities, if nothing else... and since when is 235 hp from a boosted 2.4 bad? Considering VW's boosted engines in stock trim do much less than 100 hp/l... And, by the way, independent tests have shown that's around 235 at the wheels, which means around 250+ at the crank, so yes, it does get more than 100 hp/l stock. The only complaint I've ever heard of Neons is about the quality, nothing else.

By the way, Nissans have some bad torque steer, too. The new SE-R had a lot of it when it first came out (before the helical LSD was installed), and that's "only"
175 hp.

Mercedes takes huge engines with superchargers to make power... Like the 7.3 liter engine in the Zonda? Which has to be supercharged to get 600 hp?

Whatever you may say about the ancient design architecture, Chevy's Corvette engine still works. It meets fuel economy requirements (much better than some more sophisticated engines), performance parameters and emissions requirements, while still costing less to manufacture than many smaller engines.

It's like the old Apples vs. IBM Architecture argument... sure, the new Macs perform as fast or faster with less power than the current Pentium powered iterations of the old IBM PC system, but PCs get the job done, and they cost less.

 

[Plague.Ghost]

I have read that the turbo's used on Veyron are from Mitsubishi or Mitsubishi spec. Very similar to what you find on a standard Evo lancer.

I find that comical, though not surprising; the old EB110's IHIs are Japanese as well.

 

[Joey D]

Might as well lock it, Blazin'.

You guys are here now, there is no way I can lock it. I'm starting to have fun because its 1 AM where I am and well I can't sleep...I'll get bored if I don't .

 

[Plague.Ghost]

This is just getting ridiculuous. Might as well lock it, Blazin'.

@PlagueGhost: 10 seconds... that's how close the BMW's excellent and very VERY expensive electronic nannies get it to a sportscar that costs just about half as much. Sure, it's nice for a sedan, but it's a very expensive one.

The SRT4 may not be the best handling FF ever, but it's a very good one. Neons, in fact, are generally liked for their good handling capabilities, if nothing else... and since when is 235 hp from a boosted 2.4 bad? Considering VW's boosted engines in stock trim do much less than 100 hp/l... And, by the way, independent tests have shown that's around 235 at the wheels, which means around 250+ at the crank, so yes, it does get more than 100 hp/l stock. The only complaint I've ever heard of Neons is about the quality, nothing else.

By the way, Nissans have some bad torque steer, too. The new SE-R had a lot of it when it first came out (before the helical LSD was installed), and that's "only"
175 hp.

Mercedes takes huge engines with superchargers to make power... Like the 7.3 liter engine in the Zonda? Which has to be supercharged to get 600 hp?

Whatever you may say about the ancient design architecture, Chevy's Corvette engine still works. It meets fuel economy requirements (much better than some more sophisticated engines), performance parameters and emissions requirements, while still costing less to manufacture than many smaller engines.

It's like the old Apples vs. IBM Architecture argument... sure, the new Macs perform as fast or faster with less power than the current Pentium powered iterations of the old IBM PC system, but PCs get the job done, and they cost less.

But I wasn't comparing those vehicles. And I never said Zonda or Mercedes made great engines.

Plus, the Z06 is "only" 13K less than an M5. Not 40. But I see your point of simplicity works.

 

[Joey D]

Wait you think Mercedes builds bad engines now...what the hell do you like? Mercedes built the first flippin car, I think they know how to build engines.

 

[Jay]

Mercedes takes huge engines with superchargers to make power... Like the 7.3 liter engine in the Zonda? Which has to be supercharged to get 600 hp?

Zonda's 7.3 engine (Merc) isnt supercharged.

 

[niky]

Oops... but it's still only 500-600 hp from a 7.3 engine... wait, let me dig up specs for the F...

But what I'm getting at is power-displacement matters a bit less than power+economy-weight... and the LS-series is not very heavy for the amount of power it puts out, which is the reason the ZR1's sophisticated DOHC LT-engine was scrapped. (Heavy, very expensive).

Sure, you can get insane numbers out of some other engines, The Evo's 4G63Ts, for example... but those things drink almost as much gas as say, an LS-engine while making 100 horses less. And this is on a light car, too... There's a reason you don't see the "new" MIVEC - 4G63T on that list, and you DO see the Mazda's MZR 2.3 Turbo, even though it makes less power from more cubes.

 

[YSSMAN]

I don't think anyone is making a point that American cars aren't good value, or trying to compare specific models against other European models in different catagories per se...

It is an indisputible fact that the level of engineering and technical advancement of US cars is not at the same level as in other parts of the world, price aside. No one is saying US cars and how they are built don't make sense for Americans, but that they really don't make sense from an international perspective. Making them seem very lazily engineered from the world's eyes, which is a valid criticism if America wants to export a lot of cars and have non-Americans buy them in great numbers.

For instance, we have just had some Aussie reviews of the Chrysler 300C, and it gets universally panned. The suspension is terrible and the build quality of the interior isn't too hot at all. It also uses too much fuel for its power, and looks ridiculously un-classy and comically macho (for non-US tastes - ie we HAVE taste).

Ouch, that hurts our Pride...

Technically, you are right. Americans dont give a hoot if their engines are made with magnesium, run on a G5 processor, and make a 100hp per liter. But the simple fact of the matter is that our technology is proven to work consistantly, is durable, and fits into a wide assortment of vehcles. Thats why the Chevrolet 350 is so widely used in so many cars throughout the world, wether it be trucks, cars, sports cars, custom cars, etc... You Aussies seem to love our GENIII V8s in your Holdens, as my research turns up that almost every "major" model can be equipped with the equivalent to our Camaro-spec LS1, and some our your HSVs with our LS2. Now you tell me sir, is our "technically inferior" V8 that bad in all those Holdens?

The comments about the Chrysler 300C seem a bit odd. I seem to recall an episode of the BBC's Top Gear (while they were airing in the US) where Mr. Clarkson took the Hemi-powered car out for a drive and he absolutely loved it. The power, the looks, the sounds, and more than anything, the price.

It strikes me as odd that the car wouldnt be popular in Australia, as it really is a direct compeditor to the likes of the Ford Fairlane and the Holden Caprice. The simple RWD V8 layout is pretty simple, and IMO, is better looking than the Ford and if anything a bit better than the Holden. You cant complain about the performance, and for $30K US, the interior isnt too shabby either.

Whats funny though, is you Aussies hate the styling because "you have good taste"... Funny you should mention that, a lot of Americans say the same thing about the Pontiac GTO/Holden Monaro "because we have good taste"...

 

[James2097]

Now you tell me sir, is our "technically inferior" V8 that bad in all those Holdens?

Its powerful and cheap, the two best things about it (along with the sound). Its not however, sophisticated, which is the only point I was making - with no other inference good or bad. Its also a fairly harsh engine, not that smooth. The torquey quality for towing boats etc is to be loved however. I'm really not bashing American stuff, just saying the solutions Americans tend to come up with are usually less technically advanced than say, the Japanese, Germans or Brits... At no point do I infer anything negative about Americans along the lines that you guys are too stupid to make complex machinery (just look at NASA...) or anything like that. I'm just saying that currently (and historically), US cars aren't as advanced technologically as many non-US cars. Which is simpy a fact.

The comments about the Chrysler 300C seem a bit odd. I seem to recall an episode of the BBC's Top Gear (while they were airing in the US) where Mr. Clarkson took the Hemi-powered car out for a drive and he absolutely loved it. The power, the looks, the sounds, and more than anything, the price.

The review I was mostly bringing up points from was in last week's 'drive' section in the Melbourne paper "The Age". These are things they were annoyed at. They did appreciate the overall feeling of luxury and power however, and that the car was excellent value, as they noted on Top Gear also.

Top Gear:

I've seen the episode, and yes he liked the car. I'm not saying its a bad car overall even, just that its got flaws that will stop it moving a lot of product out of Aussie dealers. Besides, didn't you see the Top Gear show (series 5) where the top gear team tried out a Holden (imported as a Vauxhall in the UK), a 300C and a Jag (the aussie and the yank cost the same and the brit a little more). The team liked the Monaro a LOT more by a long shot, with the Jag coming second. They also liked the intimidating looks of the 300C, but they ALL uniformly thought the ride was terrible! They said it should be a boat - more at home in the sea - with horrid wallowing every time it hit a bump! It couldn't corner as well as either other car (with the Monaro far superior). The monaro can also beat the 300C in a drag race (on a road, not on the beach where it just dug a hole in the sand ), so the 300C isn't really better at any basic things car need to do. Not better at cornering, not better at ride, not better at straight line speed. Jeremy even said if you have the money to buy one if these cars you would be either BORING OR STUPID if you didn't get the Monaro. Jeremy said it was as if Holden had a picture of him on their desk and said "Lets build this bloke a CAR!"
Clarkson liked the Aussie car WAAY more than anything else you can get for that kind of money. I can't see patriotic Aussies disagreeing with him any time soon.

It strikes me as odd that the car wouldnt be popular in Australia, as it really is a direct compeditor to the likes of the Ford Fairlane and the Holden Caprice. The simple RWD V8 layout is pretty simple, and IMO, is better looking than the Ford and if anything a bit better than the Holden. You cant complain about the performance, and for $30K US, the interior isnt too shabby either.

Chrysler just isn't a big brand in Aus at all, they would have to be VERY competitive to steal sales from the big Aussie two - Statesman and Fairlane - both cars that are more suited to Australian conditions with better ride and dynamics. The Age review even judged the 300C as not as good as these two cars already, even as both the Falcon and Comodoore based cars are about to get a big overhaul with all new platforms.

Until Chrysler starts winning Bathurst 1000's, I garauntee sales will be a fraction of those the Aussie cars enjoy. What can I say? Aussies tend to be just as patriotic as yanks about cars. American cars are designed for Americans and Aussie cars are designed for Australians.

Whats funny though, is you Aussies hate the styling because "you have good taste"... Funny you should mention that, a lot of Americans say the same thing about the Pontiac GTO/Holden Monaro "because we have good taste"...

The yank version of the Monaro was a catastrophy of major proportions. I hated it too. You guys totally wrecked it. Everyone would like to think they have good taste. The rest of the world has decided that American things really aren't tasteful however. You've been outvoted.

Are you seriously saying that a 300C is tasteful? It is many things: badass, bling, excessive, pretentious, chunky, featuristic, imposing etc... tasteful is not one of them.

 

[Wolfe]

HP/L argument: You're both wrong. The majority of American engines, as well as a great deal of Mercedes ones, including the Zonda's, are engineered to provide more torque than a high-revving high-specific-output motor would. Does that make them technologically advanced? Not really, making an engine bigger to get more power out of it isn't advanced at all. Does that make them incredibly inferior? Not really -- the only point where an engine can be considered "crappy" is when you start dropping below 50hp/L, IMO.

Quality: Detroit has made leaps and bounds, but interiors aren't really there yet, great handling (gasp!) has yet to trickle down to anything slower than cars like the Mustang GT, SRT-4, 'Vette, or one of those new Caddies, high-specific-output engines are have only begun to be explored, and only time can tell whether the latest from Detroit just looks and feels more reliable, or if it is more reliable...

Oh, and american family cars are still horrifically boring and lifeless.

 

[niky]

Bingo. And yes, it would be nice to see whether the perception of quality in new US automobiles will hold up in the long run.

Look at what happened to Nissan due to the perception of bad quality... they almost went down the toilet... Mitsubishi is going through that now... Mazda almost bit it a while back (not noticeable in the US, as it had its own Mazda plants, and Mazda was still shifting units there)... while none of their problems were solely due to quality or perceived quality, their near-disasters begs the question: How long can US Automakers hold out? And how long will the negative perception of quality (deserved or undeserved) plague US Autos?

 

[Joey D]

the only point where an engine can be considered "crappy" is when you start dropping below 50hp/L, IMO.

Score! 4.3L @ 190hp = 44hp/L. Oh ya the Blazer has a crappy motor. Well it might not be fast, but it's bullet proof.

Quality: Detroit has made leaps and bounds, but interiors aren't really there yet, great handling (gasp!) has yet to trickle down to anything slower than cars like the Mustang GT, SRT-4, 'Vette, or one of those new Caddies, high-specific-output engines are have only begun to be explored, and only time can tell whether the latest from Detroit just looks and feels more reliable, or if it is more reliable..

What's the point of a good handling low end car? You aren't buying it to be fast, you are buying it to be a low end car. The Soltice is very quick in the corners and so is the Cobalt, the Focus has always been good in the handling department, the Dodge Stratus isn't god aweful.

But America builds purposeful cars and trucks, they don't go out and try to dominate everything with one vehicle.

The interiors are cheapish on lower end cars, but on mid level cars they aren't bad...just simple. I hate how complicated European interiors are, I like everything laid out very simple and easy to use while I'm driving down the road.

And American cars are more reliable then they were back in the mid-90's, just look at JD Power awards.

Oh, and american family cars are still horrifically boring and lifeless.

Here are your boring American family sedans...

Chysler 300C with a 5.7L Hemi
Dodge Charger with a 5.7L Hemi
Impala, Monte Carlo, Grand Prix with the 5.3L V8
Grand Prix GTP with the supercharged 3.8L V6
Chevy Malibu SS with the 3.9L V6

They aren't boring, they are big cars with big engines...classic Detroit.

 

[Plague.Ghost]

Wait you think Mercedes builds bad engines now...what the hell do you like? Mercedes built the first flippin car, I think they know how to build engines.

***k dude, quit twisting what I say. Did I ever explicitly anounce I didn't like Mercedes' engines? NO. Did I say I did like them? NO. How can you derive from what I've said that I think they're bad engines?

I don't think they're "bad", just overrated. Do NOT say I said something when I obviously didn't.

 

[James2097]

Here we go here we go here we go...

I love a good stouch.

 

[Wolfe]

Score! 4.3L @ 190hp = 44hp/L. Oh ya the Blazer has a crappy motor. Well it might not be fast, but it's bullet proof.

It's more of a gradual thing than a "crappy/not crappy" borderline. It's more applicable on engines designed with speed in mind anyway, and is, again, merely my opinion.

What's the point of a good handling low end car? You aren't buying it to be fast, you are buying it to be a low end car. The Soltice is very quick in the corners and so is the Cobalt, the Focus has always been good in the handling department, the Dodge Stratus isn't god aweful.

You're right, there's no point in having a good handling low end car -- only rich people and enthusiasts deserve the luxury of being able to swerve to avoid something, or easily regain control in an emergency situation of some kind.

Solstice - It's a sportscar, whuddya expect?
Cobalt - Okay, the Cobalt is good - its european breeding shows.
Focus - See above.
Stratus - "Not god awful" != "Good"

But America builds purposeful cars and trucks, they don't go out and try to dominate everything with one vehicle.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying...it sounds like you mean to say that american family cars are only meant to be comfortable and roomy, american trucks are only meant to be big and powerful, and american sportscars are only meant to be fast....if so, how could that possibly mean that foreign cars that do those things and more aren't any better?

The interiors are cheapish on lower end cars, but on mid level cars they aren't bad...just simple. I hate how complicated European interiors are, I like everything laid out very simple and easy to use while I'm driving down the road.

This doesn't really seem more complicated than this...

In any case, it's more than just simplicity vs. complexity -- it's the quality of the materials and construction, and the visual appeal. I know which one of those two I prefer, but since that opinion matches my bias, I know that it would be a moot point to bring up here anyway...

And American cars are more reliable then they were back in the mid-90's, just look at JD Power awards.

My point was that it'll take some time before today's cars are as old as those 90's cars are now. In other words, we can only wait and see whether or not Detroit's efforts have paid off in the long-term.

Here are your boring American family sedans...

Chysler 300C with a 5.7L Hemi
Dodge Charger with a 5.7L Hemi
Impala, Monte Carlo, Grand Prix with the 5.3L V8
Grand Prix GTP with the supercharged 3.8L V6
Chevy Malibu SS with the 3.9L V6

They aren't boring, they are big cars with big engines...classic Detroit.

Okay, those cars aren't boring, but a normal Impala, Monte Carlo, and Malibu are, and cars like the FiveHundred and pretty much any Buick are even more so.

 

[Joey D]

You're right, there's no point in having a good handling low end car -- only rich people and enthusiasts deserve the luxury of being able to swerve to avoid something, or easily regain control in an emergency situation of some kind.

Solstice - It's a sportscar, whuddya expect?
Cobalt - Okay, the Cobalt is good - its european breeding shows.
Focus - See above.
Stratus - "Not god awful" != "Good"

Most people expect race car handeling at a low price. You can't get that, but you will get enough to go around sticky situations.

And there I named 4 leading cars under 20 grand that are good...you need more? And the Cobalt wasn't designed for Europe, it was tested on the Ring, but not dsigned there.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying...it sounds like you mean to say that american family cars are only meant to be comfortable and roomy, american trucks are only meant to be big and powerful, and american sportscars are only meant to be fast....if so, how could that possibly mean that foreign cars that do those things and more aren't any better?

American companies don't go out and try to dominate market segments...they build there cars and trucks for the American people adn they are damn good at it. American's typically like American cars and trucks

Okay, those cars aren't boring, but a normal Impala, Monte Carlo, and Malibu are, and cars like the FiveHundred and pretty much any Buick are even more so.

A lot of people don't find them boring, hence why they sell well.

 

[YSSMAN]

Allright James, you made your point, and you totally back it up, and I can totally see where youre comming from.

As an American living in Michigan, we do take a lot of pride in our cars, and what parts we make that go into cars throughout the world.

You Aussies have the formula, and I (among many other Americans) are pissed that you have such kick ass cars comming out of Ford and Holden and yet we are stuck with crap like the Fusion and Impala. The Chrysler 300 is possibly the most "American" American sedan to be released since the new Caprice in 1993.

The Monaro turned GTO seemed to have sold well here in Michigan despite the "lackluster" visual styling, and I continue to want one whether it be with the 5.7L LS1 or 6.0L LS2... The cars are built exceotionally well, have one of the best interiors in any GM vehicle, and have a very capable platform that lets it hang with the M3 when necessary.

Hopefully the influx of the 2007 Zeta-Based GTO will fix many of the problems the current model has, as it should be styled more like the '64 Goat than any of the other models. Beyond that, who knows what else may come from the Zeta... GM had said before that other US-bound models had been canceled, but as the Camaro concept may suggest, there may be more Zeta cars in the works than they belive...

 

[JCE]

You Aussies have the formula, and I (among many other Americans) are pissed that you have such kick ass cars comming out of Ford and Holden and yet we are stuck with crap like the Fusion and Impala. The Chrysler 300 is possibly the most "American" American sedan to be released since the new Caprice in 1993.

The Monaro turned GTO seemed to have sold well here in Michigan despite the "lackluster" visual styling, and I continue to want one whether it be with the 5.7L LS1 or 6.0L LS2... The cars are built exceotionally well, have one of the best interiors in any GM vehicle, and have a very capable platform that lets it hang with the M3 when necessary.

The US Spec Ford Fusion is by no means boring or crap. It's a Mazda6 with a nice exterior look--not better than the 6 but not crap either. It's one of the only cars in Ford's US lineup that doesn't have that same grille front end. And even with the American butcher of the Monaro the GTO is anything but "lackluster" in appearance--infact I'm here to tell you that the GTO is my favorite car that has a non-German car badge on it. I want one so bad it's killing me...but now that I work for Honda I'll be making some money to pay off both of my Foci (I own 2 Focus) then I get to choose between a German sport saloon, the 2006 GTO (screw the new one), and a 350Z (or Skyline).

And, I for one am sort of in disappointment that GM or Ford won't import more of it's international brands/models as-is and not murder them. I was genuinely sad when the platform that the Monaro was based on was discontinued.

 

[Poverty]

American companies don't go out and try to dominate market segments...they build there cars and trucks for the American people adn they are damn good at it. American's typically like American cars and trucks

Which most definetly has contributed to GM debt woes.

American's typically like American cars and trucks

America is also the most patriotic country in the world.

 

[James2097]

Which most definetly has contributed to GM debt woes.



America is also the most patriotic country in the world.

Hey dude, whats with the username? Famine's cousin or something...

 

[Joey D]

Which most definetly has contributed to GM debt woes.

Wrong, the UAW has screwed up GM the most.

America is also the most patriotic country in the world.

You say it like its a bad thing, there is no problem loving ones country.

 

[YSSMAN]

Youre completely right Blazin, it is the UAW that has completely screwed every American automaker in the ass...

As far as American companies dominating segments, the only ones that they have had success in doing so is for the most part the SUV market. The GMT800 trucks, the F-150, and even the Dodge Ram-based vehciles have had and maintained a lot of success despite the full-on attacks lead by Toyota and Nissan in the truck market.

The biggest problem that American automakers face in the truck/SUV market is that they are building TRUCKS with stuff built in, not like the Japanese or European way of tinkering with stuff and then building a truck. It can be argued either way as to what is the correct way of doing things, but IMO, American trucks and SUVs are still the ones to beat in overall toughness and day-to-day operation.

Living in Michigan and living on a fairly large plot of land that does require the use of a truck to get things done, I couldnt imagine doing what me and my father do in our Silverados or Avalanches as compared to the Tundra or Titan. The American trucks simply put are better suited to work then to whatever the hell the others are supposed to do. I would suppose that the Titan could pass as an acceptable truck, but I will still be paying a visit to the local Chevy or GMC dealer before considering a Toyota or Nissan.

As far as cars go, I still maintain the idea that it currently is the Germans who do almost everything right. There is a distinct feeling to the cars in the way they ride, drive, accelerate, etc... that no one has seemed to match. VWs are obviously my favorite brand (outside of Chevrolet), and IMO are some of the most beautiful and safe cars available for a somewhat reasonable price today. Although their build quality may come into question, the MKIII and MKIV Jetta/Golf is damn near perfect, and the MKIV Passat continues to be one of my favorite cars ever built outside of the US.

However, American cars can hold their own. Although most people would choose an Accord or Camry over cars like the Malibu or Fusion, they are both great cars if youre looking for a great V6 car for less than $25K. They have a very American taste to them, with a good ride and decent acceleration. If the handling isnt too great, the compromise is awesome highway crusing complete with average or above average mileage at the pump. I personally would go with a Malibu SS over an Accord LX V6 any day, espically with the lower insurance and parts replacement costs... But in overall value, the Honda still is a winner, no matter what side you may be on.

 

[Poverty]

You say it like its a bad thing, there is no problem loving ones country.

No not at all. I think its extremly important and that its lacking over here in the UK outside of football stadiums.

 

[Wolfe]

Most people expect race car handeling at a low price. You can't get that, but you will get enough to go around sticky situations.

Okay, so once you reach this "enough to go around sticky situations" point, cars that handle better aren't any better at avoiding those same situations?...also, it isn't about "racecar" handling. It's just about good handling, and it is available in small, cheap packages. I'd trust a Golf or Civic with my life long before, say, a Sunfire.

This goes beyond "cheap," too. In the post where I first mentioned this, I was actually referring to cars slower than the ones listed. As in, big floaty Buicks, Bonnevilles, and whatnot. The only Detroit sedans that can even begin to compete with European and Japanese ones are cars like the 300C, Fusion, and Cadillacs. And the first two are foreign-influenced.

And there I named 4 leading cars under 20 grand that are good...you need more? And the Cobalt wasn't designed for Europe, it was tested on the Ring, but not dsigned there.

"In this way, the new Chevrolet Cobalt is born from the same architecture as Opel Astra, sharing the same stiff structure, Europe-tuned suspensions and the Lotus-developed L850 aluminum 16V engines." - Autozine

And I wasn't asking for more. You just didn't really give any strong counter-example.

American companies don't go out and try to dominate market segments...

Since when...? I fail to see how that would be logical for any major auto manufacturer to simply give up on being any better...I sincerely hope that's not the mindset in Detroit -- if so, they deserve to go bankrupt.

Anyway if you believe this to be true, then why complain when consumers go for something better?

they build there cars and trucks for the American people adn they are damn good at it.

If so, then why are they struggling? (unless you want to tell me that the only reason why GM is struggling is because of the UAW)

American's typically like American cars and trucks

This is true for a lot of the nation (mostly as far as land-area goes...in other words, rural areas), but I think you may be looking at things through Michigan-tinted glasses...large cities such as New York, Los Angeles, etc. and typically more liberal-minded towns/cities are packed with Japanese and German cars.

A lot of people don't find them boring, hence why they sell well.

If I may make a correction -- a lot of people don't care if they're boring, hence why they sell well.

 

[niky]

Actually, the Ford Fusion and the Chrysler 300 aren't foreign influenced, they're a Mazda 6 and a Mercedes E-series with plusher suspensions.

I'd trust my Ford sooner than I'd trust a Golf!... errh... my Ford Protege, that is.

This is true for a lot of the nation (mostly as far as land-area goes...in other words, rural areas), but I think you may be looking at things through Michigan-tinted glasses...large cities such as New York, Los Angeles, etc. and typically more liberal-minded towns/cities are packed with Japanese and German cars.

I knew it! The liberals are killing the automotive industry!

But seriously, American cars don't get respect for a variety of reasons, and one of those reaasons is American buyers. They didn't demand things from their cars that the Europeans and Japanese did... America's romance with open highways, powerful engines and plush cruisers made Detroit rely on old-school dynamics and engines for way too long.

Now, back on the engine topic.

Ever since the first oil crisis, US automakers have been losing ground, and it's sad that they're still playing catch-up. Like Wolfe said, the attitudes and wants of American consumers are changing, and more and more Americans want small, nimble, economical, efficient and modern cars. But since they want them now, they're not waiting on Detroit. They're buying what's on the market.

There's still enough of the old profile American consumer to support Detroit, but that's a shrinking market.

Ford's cashing in on its Mazda arm by stealing their platforms and engines wholesale (except the V6... which is why it's one of the weakest of the new DOHC 3 liter sixes) to make cars that buyers want. Unfortunately, I think this takes too much market away from Mazda. Mazda's MZRs are good, but not exactly class leading. I'm waiting to see whether Ford's next V6 will come from Mazda or whether it'll be the other way around.

I'm still befuddled by the Ford SOHC V8 being in there.

GM doesn't have the engine resources it needs to put out a class-killing world car. (world car - defined as compact, engines between 1.5-2.0) All it has is Saab, Opel, and Daewoo. Daewoo engines are really on the low end of the evolutionary scale, Saab and Opel engines aren't exactly lumps of engineering people tend to fawn over, either. GM had Subaru once, but Subaru's boxer formula isn't very easy to fit into an econobox. Even their 1.6's were expensive. .

The Ecotec may be good enough as it is, but in today's market, the numbers game is all that matters, and it doesn't have the numbers.

 

[Poverty]

May I ask how long have you guys been gettin your eco-tec engines over in the states?

As for the chrysler after some of the reviews I've read and videos Ive seen of it in action I was amazed to find out its sitting atop a E-class chassis. Is It the current E-class or the previous generation. Either how whatever GM did to it they managed to screw it up.

 

[YSSMAN]

1) We have had the ECOTEC Inline-4 in the US I think since 2002 or 2003 in the Cavalier and Sunfire. Although they arent nearly as good as some of it's variants in their European cousins, I continue to believe that they are a well built and proven powerplant when compared to the Honda VTEC and Toyota VVT-i engines.

2) The Daimler Chrysler LX Cars (300, Charger, Magnum) are all based on the previous-generation Mercedes-Benz E-class chassis. Not a bad thing, but it makes me wonder why DC couldnt build a RWD platform from scratch. Atleast the new Challenger is based on an Americanized version of the LX platform...

3) American engine technology is still behind those of the Europeans and Japanese because we never really had to change too much to make our engines more fuel efficent and economical because gas really only became "expensive" in the past few years. By no means is it anywhere near as expensive as what it is in Europe or Japan (what, $8 a gallon?)... VVT is just starting to pop-up in GM four and six cylinder cars, and will begin to appear on the Vortec V8s when the GMT900 trucks go on sale in Febuary.

But even then, are all the techno goodies making any of their engines any better? GM and Daimler Chrysler have both proven that you can build kick-ass OHV V8s that will easily outdo the best DOHC computer-controlled V8s Germany and Japan has to offer.

But alas, the V8 is the only thing American companies really accel at when it comes to engine building. We still cant come close to the BMW I6, Honda V6, or any of the British or German V12s... Even though the Aston Martin units are baisicly two Duratec V6s slapped together in the DB9...

 

[Plague.Ghost]

But even then, are all the techno goodies making any of their engines any better? GM and Daimler Chrysler have both proven that you can build kick-ass OHV V8s that will easily outdo the best DOHC computer-controlled V8s Germany and Japan has to offer.

But American car companies do that with insane engine sizes. Now what if every other manufacturer made their V8's that big, then how good would the American engines be? (comparitively speaking)

 

[Wolfe]

But American car companies do that with insane engine sizes. Now what if every other manufacturer made their V8's that big, then how good would the American engines be? (comparitively speaking)

I imagine it would go something like this:

2006 Pontiac Grand Prix GXP - 5.3L V8, 303hp, 328lb.ft
2006 Mercedes-Benz SL55 AMG - 5.4L V8, 493hp, 516lb.ft

...and if anyone mentions the price difference between these two cars, they've obviously missed the point that we are talking engines, here.