Ward's Top Engines for 2005

[Poverty]

I belive the best V8 in the world right now is that of the Audi RS4.

Engine
Type: V8
Displacement cu in (cc): 254 (4163)
Power bhp (kW) at RPM: 420(323) / 7800
Torque lb-ft (Nm) at RPM: 317(430) / 5500 (of which 90% is available at 2250rpm and 7600 rpm)
Redline at RPM: 8250

We have had the ECOTEC Inline-4 in the US I think since 2002 or 2003 in the Cavalier and Sunfire. Although they arent nearly as good as some of it's variants in their European cousins, I continue to believe that they are a well built and proven powerplant when compared to the Honda VTEC and Toyota VVT-i engines.

So your saying that the EcoTecs are better than hondas VTEC's and Toyotas VVT-I?

 

[Joey D]

I imagine it would go something like this:

2006 Pontiac Grand Prix GXP - 5.3L V8, 303hp, 328lb.ft
2006 Mercedes-Benz SL55 AMG - 5.4L V8, 493hp, 516lb.ft

...and if anyone mentions the price difference between these two cars, they've obviously missed the point that we are talking engines, here.

The Benz's ENGINE cost MORE to build, like way more. Also how does reliablity fair? I would guess the tried and tested American V8 would last longer then something computer controlled. When you bring a bunch of electronics into the equations you are only asking for problems.

 

[Poverty]

Thats beside the point. The benz engine cost so much because its hand built. AMG churns out so many engines nowadays its mad.As long as the wires are of a high quality material and the electronics are kept in good nick and are well insulated from weathering you should have minimal problems. If you open a copy of exotic marques you will see plently of the older v8 sl mercs with well over 120k miles on them that are immaculate performers.

 

[Joey D]

How is that besides the point, something hand built with billions of dollars into the program should be better then a tried and true engine. And I don't care what you say, electronics will always give you more problems over mechincal. I know I would rather put my trust in mechincal over electrical.

And American V8's will run forever, look at any American truck, you can put hundreds of thousands of miles on them in work conditions and it's fine.

 

[Plague.Ghost]

But where does engineering come in if it's "tried and true"? It's just a repeat of what's already been done. You don't get anywhere without development and experimentation.

 

[Joey D]

"if it ain't broke, why fix it?"

The American V8's work, they sell well (Chevy 350 being the best selling of all time) and they are good. GM, Ford, Chysler would be a bunch of idiots to change something that works really well. Sure they will redo some thing to get more power out of them, but they are still the same old formula.

If Chevy were to change the 350 it would be about as good of an idea as Coke had with the "New Coke".

 

[Driftster]

suprized to se no W16, and no LS7

 

[YSSMAN]

I seem to recall a certain British V8 design, that of the various Rover V8 designations, being among one of the oldest "tried and true" engine platforms that had ever existed. Up untill a few years ago, it could be found in everything from the Land Rover Disco to the classic Morgan sports cars... Although it's design dates back to a '50s Buick V8 archetecture, it is one of the most beloved V8s outside of the Chevrolet (and now GM) small block that is in everything.

Why is it so necessary for things to change when they do not need to be changed at all? American V8 design is what it is, powerful and simplistic. Why do you think there are so few problems with them? Maybe because the design has changed so little? We havent had a need to change with the times?

Our engines have always been powerful enough not only to compete stateside, but around the world. Why do you think so many racecars are powered by the Chevrolet 350 or the Ford 302? Why are engines like the Chrysler Hemi 426, Ford 427, and Chevrolet 427 still reguarded as some of the best racing engines ever built?

The Germans and the Japanese can do all they want with handbuilt V6s, V8s, V10s, and V12s... But they are still getting their asses handed to them by a simple 400HP V8 built in a plant just outside of Detroit, why go through all the trouble with the special stuff?

Now, I will admit that the three greatest engines in the American arsenal are handbuilt... Those of the 5.4L S/C V8 in the Ford GT, the 8.3L V10 in the Dodge Viper, and the 7.0L LS7 V8 in the Chevrolet Corvette Z06... But considering they they reside in cars that cost less than their competition and at the same time completely blow them out of the water with old-school building techniques... It just goes to show that Americans can still do it with less, no matter the circumstances...

 

[Wolfe]

@ Blazin for asking about the reliability of a Benz engine compared to a Pontiac's.

Oh well, it's irrelevant anyway -- I failed to notice that the Benz's engine was supercharged. MSN Autos is useful for some things, but sometimes it'll just lead you completely astray. Stupid mistake on my part.

It's almost impossible to find another example as perfect as that one seemed, too...the Germans and Japanese simply don't make engines as big as the americans do...

 

[JCE]

Our engines have always been powerful enough not only to compete stateside, but around the world. Why do you think so many racecars are powered by the Chevrolet 350 or the Ford 302? Why are engines like the Chrysler Hemi 426, Ford 427, and Chevrolet 427 still reguarded as some of the best racing engines ever built?

Tell that to the Ford hater in this thread: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=74501&page=2. = /

It's almost impossible to find another example as perfect as that one seemed, too...the Germans and Japanese simply don't make engines as big as the americans do...

The previous gen M5 had a 5.0l engine and the current engine in some of Nissans SUVs are 5.6l--but that may be a moot point because I'm fairly positive that's an American designed and built V8. Nissan's 4.5l V8 might be the biggest they build on a large scale in Japan...can't think of any other Japanese manufacturer with a medium displacement V8. Anyone know of one?

 

[Poverty]

Why is it so necessary for things to change when they do not need to be changed at all? American V8 design is what it is, powerful and simplistic. Why do you think there are so few problems with them? Maybe because the design has changed so little? We havent had a need to change with the times?

And I thought ford and GM were in financial difficulties. Silly of me.So basically everytime you buy a new american car the only new thing about it is the shell. Seriously though people like change and no one wants to be driving what is practically the same car years on end. Mercedes were building rock solid cars back in the 70's to the 90's yet they still pushed ahead with technology.The only reason why you guys still have those great big engines is because the likes of GM are lazy. They know they can (or should I say could) get away with it. Theyre not doing you a favour by making low tech engines they are just maximising their profits (or should I say trying to) in the short term. The term of which is seemingly ending.It is afterall your big engines that gets Americans mocked by Europe and Japan car enthusiats.

Our engines have always been powerful enough not only to compete stateside, but around the world. Why do you think so many racecars are powered by the Chevrolet 350 or the Ford 302? Why are engines like the Chrysler Hemi 426, Ford 427, and Chevrolet 427 still reguarded as some of the best racing engines ever built?

Because they were cheap to buy and maintain.

The Germans and the Japanese can do all they want with handbuilt V6s, V8s, V10s, and V12s... But they are still getting their asses handed to them by a simple 400HP V8 built in a plant just outside of Detroit, why go through all the trouble with the special stuff?

If no one went through with the special stuff we would probably not have 4wd in our cars lsd traction control yaw control and any other technical goodness. And we'd still be averaging 20mpg.

And which 400hp v8 is that. Also I highly doubt any v10 or 12 would get its ass handed to by a 400hp motor.

Now, I will admit that the three greatest engines in the American arsenal are handbuilt... Those of the 5.4L S/C V8 in the Ford GT, the 8.3L V10 in the Dodge Viper, and the 7.0L LS7 V8 in the Chevrolet Corvette Z06... But considering they they reside in cars that cost less than their competition and at the same time completely blow them out of the water with old-school building techniques... It just goes to show that Americans can still do it with less, no matter the circumstances...

Mate you never heard of TVR? There are also sever other low production companies that make cars such as TVR's in Germany but arent well known because they are indeed small specialist companies.

As for the Ford GT engine and the viper I fail to see any greatness at all. At 8.3 litres id be actually dissapointed with the power output and the ford GT is nothing special either just a supercharged truck engine that sucks more than a porn star. 2mpg thats less than a bugatti veyron.

So the ford GT and the viper both have about 500hp give or take a few horses.A bmw M5 has also 500hp yet it takes a supercharger and a larger displacement of the GT to muster the same power and the viper needs nearly double the displacement to get 500hp. Those two engines are far from special.

 

[Joey D]

The only reason why you guys still have those great big engines is because the likes of GM are lazy.

That's a really stupid comment, GM had big engines because people in America like big engines. It's called marketing.

Theyre not doing you a favour by making low tech engines they are just maximising their profits (or should I say trying to) in the short term. The term of which is seemingly ending.It is afterall your big engines that gets Americans mocked by Europe and Japan car enthusiats.

Actually they are because you can buy a "low-tech" engine Corvette Z06 for 67k and still whip things ass's which are much more expensive. And the reason Europe and Japan mocks the US is because they don't see the US market correctly.

And which 400hp v8 is that. Also I highly doubt any v10 or 12 would get its ass handed to by a 400hp motor.

Well maybe not a 400hp V8, but what about the C6R? That thing owns most cars around the track, and all it really is is a Z06 with some safety features and less weight.

Mate you never heard of TVR? There are also sever other low production companies that make cars such as TVR's in Germany but arent well known because they are indeed small specialist companies.

You have to negate TVR in this discussion since they aren't sold in America, and if they were they sticker would read "Arm & Leg". TVR's would not sell in America because for far less money you could be driving around a Vette or Viper.

As for the Ford GT engine and the viper I fail to see any greatness at all. At 8.3 litres id be actually dissapointed with the power output and the ford GT is nothing special either just a supercharged truck engine that sucks more than a porn star. 2mpg thats less than a bugatti veyron.

The GT engine is from a Mustang, the only truck I can think of it was in was the Lightining but that was no truck per say. The GT is great car and does not suck, even your British God of Jermy Clarkston loved the thing. But I hope to god the Bugatti is better since its 10 times more expensive.

So the ford GT and the viper both have about 500hp give or take a few horses.A bmw M5 has also 500hp yet it takes a supercharger and a larger displacement of the GT to muster the same power and the viper needs nearly double the displacement to get 500hp. Those two engines are far from special.

QUIT COMPARING THE M5 TO SPORTS CARS!!!!

It's already been established that the Z06 kicks the M5's ass with the same power out put, but they are two different cars.

 

[YSSMAN]

You Europeans just dont get it, do you? I guess we Americans will never understand you either...

American engines design, espically that of the V8, hasent changed because it never needed to. The design has remained the same because it works, its just that simple. Being that the only major advancements in American engine technology over the past few years have been aluminum casting, fuel injection, OHC designs, and now VVT... And they still make more power than the European compeditors. Displacement makes no difference in general. As long as it is powerful, it works just fine. The 400HP V8 I was discussing was the GM LS2 V8 out of the Corvette, Monaro/GTO, etc... The design isnt far beyond that of the origional small-block design outside of the larger bore and stroke (and a few casting and cylinder design changes as well)... It is cheaper to build, maintain, and will undoubtedly have a less troubled life than those from BMW and Mercedes.

GM or Ford may be making larger profits by using older engine technology, but GM had said before that they were going to stick with pushrod designs because they work well, and there isnt a reason to change it. The engines are capable of getting the same gas mileage as those other German and Japanese V8s in many applications... When was the last time your BMW M5 got 30MPG on the highway like our Camaros and Corvettes?

So you think that your LSD is so wonderfull, like Mitsubishi and Subaru invented it? Need I remind you that it was poping up on our cars long before those rice-rockets... Yaw control? Who cares? I dont need a computer to control my car for me... I seem to recall traction-control poping up on Cadilacs back in the 1980s, before it became standard on many European models... Wowee, looks like the Americans beat you to it!

The 400HP V8 I was taking about is of course, the GM LS2 V8 found in many vechilces such as the Corvette, Monaro/GTO, SSR, Trailblazer SS, CTS-V, etc... The Corvette continues to be a good example of a $45K old-school V8-powered sports car that continues to outrun its competition for almost half the price. The CTS-V has been beating up on the M3 for a few years now, and it even beat up on the old M5 for a bit. The Monaro/GTO is still considered to be a huge performance bargin that can play with the big kids, and the Trailblazer SS did a good job at throwing it's hat into the super-SUV ring.

We could also talk about the DC HEMI lineup, both the 5.7L 345HP version and the 6.1L 425HP version... Runs on much of the same old-school tech that the HEMI name recalls, and like the GM LS2, powers cars and trucks that have shown that Americans can still build cars (and engines for that matter) that can match efforts from Germany, Great Britan, etc...

Who hasnt herd of TVR that isnt an automotive enthusiest? Thats almost insulting to even assume that I dont know who they are or what they build... Damn good sports cars. But being that they arent sold in the US, and very few people from the US have even seen one or driven one, how exactly can it be a direct compeditor to the likes of the GT, SRT-10 Coupe, and Z06? Sure, the Segaris kicks ass (no doubts there), but it is kinda funny that use pretty American ideas when building their cars...

So you ***** about a Ford GT's truck engine when it literally kicked the crap out of the Ferrari 360 Modena (now F430), Lamborghini Gallarado, Mercedes SL55 AMG, Porsche 911 GT2, etc...? It may rely on a S/C for extra power, but so do many of the Mercedes powerplants, the Porsche relies on extra turbo power to make it the monster that it is... Where in the hell did you get the idea that it gets 2MPG? I seem to recall the GT was getting 13 in the city and 21 on the highway, just a bit better than the Bugatti.... Its kinda funny that you Europeans ***** about the GT now, just like when you *****ed about the "barbaric" GT40 back in the '60s. That was powered by the same V8 found in Ford's Talladega NASCARs, and yet it kicked the crap out of Ferrari too... Hmmm, history does like to repeat itself, doesnt it?

The Viper's V10 may be an aluminum truck-sourced V10, but it still kicks ass. 510HP and 535ft/lbs of torque is enough to make any serious sports car from Europe have a bit of worry. 0-60 in 3.8 seconds and a top speed near 200MPH for around $90K is still a great deal in the realm of supercars, and just like the GT, it beats up on those other $200K European sports cars. I dont know what is dissapointing about those figures, but I suppose that if you havent driven one, you have no idea what it is all about. There is some kind of gunt at every level of the tachometer... Punch it in almost any gear, and it will put you back in your seat...

Why the hell are you Europeans so obsessed with that damn M5? It has 500HP in a 5.0L V10, who cares? You do realise it has to be activated by throwing a switch, right?

Thats my biggest beef with European and Japanese cars these days. There is so much technology poured into every model that it isnt the driver driving the car any longer... If I hit the throttle in the M5 it first has to be filtered through the engine's computer, before it talks to the transmission which selects what gear it needs to be in, while the suspension's computer attempts to even out the load during acceleration, while another computer keeps track of wheelspin and adjusts the traction controll accordingly... NOT FUN!!!

Maybe thats why cars like the Chevrolet Corvette Z06 are loved so much by the automotive press. There arent any special gizmos or dodadds to make you drive better. The only helpful add-on to the Z06 was the traction control that has a few different settings: track, on, and off. PERFECT! I can still shift my own gears (thats where you use your left foot to operate the clutch), I dont have to filter my inputs through 30 computers, and I can still leave a 30 ft patch of rubber behind me if I wish.

 

[JCE]

The GT engine is from a Mustang, the only truck I can think of it was in was the Lightining but that was no truck per say.

I have to correct you here bud. The 5.4l Triton V8 is standard equipment on several F150 models, Explorer, Expedition, and even some trims of the F250. The SVT Lightning/Ford GT just uses a few engine tweaks and a supercharger. While I am a little disappointed in Ford for going forced induction when they have a 6.8 V10 they could of rigged up for a supercar. Still, it's upsetting alot of Europeans because it DOES kick the asses of cars that cost 2x or more the price.

And as for the MPG arguements, ANY car will get **** gas mileage if you drive the hell out of it. Case in point, if I drive normal in my Focus I get an average of 30mpg (US gallon) but if I drive it like I stole it I get 23mpg. When I owned my Crown Vic Police Interceptor if I drove it slow and easy I got 15mpg--but if I drive it like I normally do (which is like a bat out of hell) I got 8mpg. 8mpg!! The same can be said of these sportscars and supercars. Drive a Ford GT with your foot to the floor and yes you will get 2-4mpg...do the same in a Porsche, Merc, or BMW and you will get rubbish mpg. It's common sense...

You Europeans just dont get it, do you? I guess we Americans will never understand you either...

Why the hell are you Europeans so obsessed with that damn M5? It has 500HP in a 5.0L V10, who cares? You do realise it has to be activated by throwing a switch, right?

Thats my biggest beef with European and Japanese cars these days. There is so much technology poured into every model that it isnt the driver driving the car any longer... If I hit the throttle in the M5 it first has to be filtered through the engine's computer, before it talks to the transmission which selects what gear it needs to be in, while the suspension's computer attempts to even out the load during acceleration, while another computer keeps track of wheelspin and adjusts the traction controll accordingly... NOT FUN!!!

Maybe thats why cars like the Chevrolet Corvette Z06 are loved so much by the automotive press. There arent any special gizmos or dodadds to make you drive better. The only helpful add-on to the Z06 was the traction control that has a few different settings: track, on, and off. PERFECT! I can still shift my own gears (thats where you use your left foot to operate the clutch), I dont have to filter my inputs through 30 computers, and I can still leave a 30 ft patch of rubber behind me if I wish.

The ones that are American bashers don't get it because they have a imperialistic world view and they are closed minded. Any real unbiased auto enthusiast will appreciate any car with any engine from any region. PERIOD.

Secondly, I slightly disagree on the M5 comment...the car is most certainly fun. You just have to find ways of having fun when the computers won't let you. And the noise it makes in M mode is worth the price of admission.

Driving nannies are ok by me as long as you have the OPTION to turn them completely off...none of this crap where you turn it completely off and it's still there--*COUGH*VOLVO*COUGH*.

 

[niky]

All this bickering over big engines is beside the point. America makes great V8s, yes, but the Japanese have focused a lot of their time and energy on developing small displacement engines. This is one displacement class where good old American knowhow doesn't cut it.

A lot of markets put ridiculous restrictions on engine sizes, in terms of registration, taxes, insurance penalties and the like. Others tax the hell out of petroleum products.

If the American companies want to compete in these markets, it's the small engines that count. Ford used to dominate this market, way back in the 70's and 80's, with the Escort, but they've failed to capitalize on it.

 

[YSSMAN]

...Too bad Ford ended up canceling the "Hurricanne" 6.2L OHV V8... They said it was going to be pushing 400HP and origionally was slated to be the powerplant in the SVT products.

I still dissagree with the nannies. Although they do save grandma and grandpa's buts when they get a little overzealous with thier LS430, nannies take out all the fun.

But, when BMW did announce that they were going to offer a six-speed manual for the US market M5, I did get a bit excited... But after reading the reviews, I really dont care. Its not the same as the old one, which in my opinion was damn near perfect...

 

[Tornado]

Driving nannies are ok by me as long as you have the OPTION to turn them completely off...none of this crap where you turn it completely off and it's still there--*COUGH*VOLVO*COUGH*.

Or *Mercedes* or *Lexus* or...

A lot of markets put ridiculous restrictions on engine sizes, in terms of registration, taxes, insurance penalties and the like. Others tax the hell out of petroleum products.

Cough cough *France and Italy* cough cough.
Stupid Ferrari 208T.

If the American companies want to compete in these markets, it's the small engines that count. Ford used to dominate this market, way back in the 70's and 80's, with the Escort, but they've failed to capitalize on it.

What about the Focus? I thought that was supposed to be Ford's Neo-"World Car". It was built to replace the Escort.

But not on a 13 MILE track!

See response below.

HA! Are you actually arguing that?! The EB110 had a 3.5L V12, the Bugatti has a 16 cylinder W-W8! They aren't even remotely the same! Even the turbos are different; the EB110's were supplied by IHI, and I'm pretty sure the Veyrons were developed in-house. My god. And you say I'm blind to facts.

Well, you were the one that brought it up by saying that the Veyron had quad turboes because the EB110 did.

Hardy har har, Mr. I'm-comparing-a-racecar-to-a-luxury-sport-tourer.

I hope you realise that if it didn't matter than BMW wouldn't release the car's times outside of the company.

By the way, Nissans have some bad torque steer, too. The new SE-R had a lot of it when it first came out (before the helical LSD was installed), and that's "only" 175 hp.

I'm not so sure the new keeper of the flame of the Torque Steer GP (took it right from the 850T5R ) is the best example to cite when talking about FWD torque steer.

 

[Poverty]

The GT is great car and does not suck

I was reffering to mpg.

That's a really stupid comment, GM had big engines because people in America like big engines. It's called marketing.

Yet theyre bringing these great big stonking engines to the UK...Why offer us only big engines?

QUIT COMPARING THE M5 TO SPORTS CARS!!!!

It's already been established that the Z06 kicks the M5's ass with the same power out put, but they are two different cars.

Read the title of your own thread. This thread is about engines so I compare the engines. The M5 engine is a better engine from a technical and engineering viewpoint. It pushes boundries and therefore its a better engine.

American engines design, espically that of the V8, hasent changed because it never needed to.

Because there was no competition to force them to change to make their product better than their competitiors? Are you really saying american car companies had no competitiors? They didnt at first but they do now and with competition requires change to stay at the top. Your car companies are lazy. I dont think a consumer would compalin if theyre 7.0 500hp engine got double the mileage over its predacessor.

Well maybe not a 400hp V8, but what about the C6R? That thing owns most cars around the track, and all it really is is a Z06 with some safety features and less weight.

Are you for real? So I quess my friends DB9 is basically just a DB9R minus weight reduction race tires and rollcage. Comeone now dont be silly. All they share is the logo and engine block and thats about it. You really do buy into any marketing dont you.

Hey my audi quattro is basically just a audi quattro rally car from the 80's then minus rollcage and a couple HP.

And they still make more power than the European compeditors.

No they dont.

GM or Ford may be making larger profits by using older engine technology, but GM had said before that they were going to stick with pushrod designs because they work well, and there isnt a reason to change it.

And GWB said Iraq had WMD.

The Corvette continues to be a good example of a $45K old-school V8-powered sports car that continues to outrun its competition for almost half the price.

Doesnt outrun cars with similair or lower HP though does it. If porsche really wanted to they could sell their 911s for the same price as a z06 but they dont have to.

The CTS-V has been beating up on the M3 for a few years now

330hp versus 400hp yet the m3 is still faster around a track. And if you want to make it fair compare your precious cts-v versus the 414hp audi rs4 which eats it alive.

Segaris kicks ass (no doubts there), but it is kinda funny that use pretty American ideas when building their cars...

So your saying the tvr's are muscle cars when the biggest size engine tvr you can but today is a 4.2? or 4.0? Sorry buddy but no.

So you ***** about a Ford GT's truck engine when it literally kicked the crap out of the Ferrari 360 Modena (now F430), Lamborghini Gallarado, Mercedes SL55 AMG, Porsche 911 GT2,

Compare it to the murcelago not gallardo and the sl55 amg please. That thing weighs 2 tonnes and has 355hp. Not fair isit. Oh and prove it.

The Viper's V10 may be an aluminum truck-sourced V10, but it still kicks ass. 510HP and 535ft/lbs of torque is enough to make any serious sports car from Europe have a bit of worry. 0-60 in 3.8 seconds and a top speed near 200MPH for around $90K

So a £40 thousand pound tvr with a 4.0 engine is faster than the viper and no doubtly handles better and is cheaper and prettier...

Why the hell are you Europeans so obsessed with that damn M5? It has 500HP in a 5.0L V10, who cares? You do realise it has to be activated by throwing a switch, right?

That switch is actually counted as a positive mate.

If I hit the throttle in the M5 it first has to be filtered through the engine's computer, before it talks to the transmission which selects what gear it needs to be in, while the suspension's computer attempts to even out the load during acceleration, while another computer keeps track of wheelspin and adjusts the traction controll accordingly... NOT FUN!!!

Ask a car revier the most fun cars hes driven and he will most likely mention bmw ferrari honda and porsche.

Maybe thats why cars like the Chevrolet Corvette Z06 are loved so much by the automotive press. There arent any special gizmos or dodadds to make you drive better. The only helpful add-on to the Z06 was the traction control that has a few different settings: track, on, and off. PERFECT!

Like a tvr or ferrari or porsche or bmw (Track tuned models)

Drive a Ford GT with your foot to the floor and yes you will get 2-4mpg...do the same in a Porsche, Merc, or BMW and you will get rubbish mpg.

Tripe or quadruple what the gt gets though.

 

[Plague.Ghost]

Well, you were the one that brought it up by saying that the Veyron had quad turboes because the EB110 did.

That was merely a nostalgia thing, like a trademark or catchphrase. Bugatti isn't even owned by the same company any more.

[edit]

I hope you realise that if it didn't matter than BMW wouldn't release the car's times outside of the company.

I never said it didn't matter. What matters is 2 cars, with completely different purposes, having only .75s difference per mile of track. One is a big-engined, light-weight, designed-for-GT-racing high performance vehicle, the other is a luxury sport tourer that's 10x as safe with twice the build quality. There's a big difference between the vehicles, yet only 3/4 of a second the difference per mile (on average).

This is a comparo about engines.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I rate engines by efficiency, effectiveness, and reliability. An 8.3L V10 or a 7.0L V8 making the same horsepower as a 5.0L V10 is NOT efficient. It's a waste of space.

Also, comparing mileage for high-horsepower vehicles is ultimately pointless. If you're spending over $65,000 for a car, you can obviously spend a couple more for the gasoline to enjoy it.

The M5 and M3 engines both make over 100hp/L, yet your precious 4.4L Northstar V8 uses forced induction to achieve the same hp/L. Both the M3 and M5 engines are statistically better! Fancy that!

 

[Joey D]

By Poverty:

I was reffering to mpg.

If you buy a sports/super car you don't really care about the mileage on it.

Yet theyre bringing these great big stonking engines to the UK...Why offer us only big engines?

Might as well try to sell a few, I mean income is income right?

Are you for real? So I quess my friends DB9 is basically just a DB9R minus weight reduction race tires and rollcage. Comeone now dont be silly. All they share is the logo and engine block and thats about it. You really do buy into any marketing dont you.

Hey guess what? I worked on the Corvette and Z06 programs, I know whats up. The cars were engineered side by side at the same time. They are strikingly similar in many ways.

Doesnt outrun cars with similair or lower HP though does it. If porsche really wanted to they could sell their 911s for the same price as a z06 but they dont have to.

What are you stupid? Look at track numbers...alla the 'Ring, the Z06 out ran many cars with more power then it and certianly more with less. Quit knocking a sweet car.

330hp versus 400hp yet the m3 is still faster around a track. And if you want to make it fair compare your precious cts-v versus the 414hp audi rs4 which eats it alive.

Actually they are very close in track numbers, but I'm guessing the CTS-V has some extra weight on it.

 

[niky]

What about the Focus? I thought that was supposed to be Ford's Neo-"World Car". It was built to replace the Escort.

Yes, it is. It sells well in Europe, but in Asia, Africa and Australia, they've been relying on sales of re-badged Mazda Proteges. They did okay, but weren't stellar sales models.

The new Focus still waiting to catch on in Asia. Chevy's lazy re-badge of the Optra/Forenza is doing very well, but merely because they're selling it much cheaper than anything else. The Focus sells well in RHD markets here, but nowhere near the sales figures of Toyota/Honda/Nissan. They've passed Mitsu at least, but as that's a dying company, I don't know if it counts.

I'm not so sure the new keeper of the flame of the Torque Steer GP (took it right from the 850T5R ) is the best example to cite when talking about FWD torque steer.

That is so damn quotable.

Actually they are very close in track numbers, but I'm guessing the CTS-V has some extra weight on it.

So does the M3. But I agree that it's senseless to compare the two, as one's a very expensive luxury coupe with more technological nannies and assists than the Space Shuttle and the other's a relatively heavy muscle car in a pinstripe suit.

 

[JCE]

Tripe or quadruple what the gt gets though.

Take any supercar in the same class as the GT and drive it with your foot to the floor and YOU WILL GET THAT LOW OF GAS MILEAGE! PERIOD! I 100% guarantee it. And before you say **** like "oh the M5 gets..." I don't care, that's not a supercar in the GT's class--that'd be price and stature. Just TRY and prove me wrong--you can't because you'd OBVIOSULY NEVER DRIVEN A REAL SUPERCAR for longer than 1 minute--I have both an American one and European one--they both got ****ty mpg because I drove the hell out of them. Look at that EVO that got 1mpg on Top Gear, where's your b*tching about that? The Veryon will not get more than 2mpg if you drive it with your foot to the floor--actually it will get you 0mpg because it would most likely KILL you. You are OBVIOUSLY an American hater and will hate and insult everything with a closed mind. You are not a real car enthusiast you are simply a "fanboy". Thanks come again.

P.S. And before you try and insult me as an American remember this, I'm actually a German so if you're going to insult just to insult at least get the region right. 👍

 

[Poverty]

Take any supercar in the same class as the GT and drive it with your foot to the floor and YOU WILL GET THAT LOW OF GAS MILEAGE! PERIOD! I 100% guarantee it. And before you say **** like "oh the M5 gets..." I don't care, that's not a supercar in the GT's class--that'd be price and stature. Just TRY and prove me wrong--you can't because you'd OBVIOSULY NEVER DRIVEN A REAL SUPERCAR for longer than 1 minute--I have both an American one and European one--they both got ****ty mpg because I drove the hell out of them. Look at that EVO that got 1mpg on Top Gear, where's your b*tching about that? The Veryon will not get more than 2mpg if you drive it with your foot to the floor--actually it will get you 0mpg because it would most likely KILL you. You are OBVIOUSLY an American hater and will hate and insult everything with a closed mind. You are not a real car enthusiast you are simply a "fanboy". Thanks come again.

P.S. And before you try and insult me as an American remember this, I'm actually a German so if you're going to insult just to insult at least get the region right. 👍

Mate why are you getting so wound up. You really do wear your heart on your sleeve. First of all I can compare the M5 to the GT because this is a discussion about the engines but not car as a whole. BTW which supercars have you driven? Why arent I b!tching about the Evo? Because it was never brought up before. Even without driving the GT hard it will get dismall mpg. Alot worse than many of the other supercars. And seeing as you mentioned top gear they have mentioned that fact in about 3 or 4 episodes now about just how much it drinks.

And im not a american car hater because first of all I like the Z06. Used to really like the viper when I was a bit younger aswell but the z06 has taken its place. And secondly I am American Or partially at that my mums American but I still have quite alout of family in america so I go there from time to time. And I liked a Buick that we rented once because it drove smooth and it had loads of space. I really enjoyed that car for its long distance cruising capabilties.

 

[Onikaze]

*tosses his hat in*

I think the "TVR's are Musclecar's" comment was referring to the fact that while they only have 4 or so liters of engine, it's from 6 pots, not 8 or more.

With that, I will remove my hat again.

 

[Joey D]

So does the M3. But I agree that it's senseless to compare the two, as one's a very expensive luxury coupe with more technological nannies and assists than the Space Shuttle and the other's a relatively heavy muscle car in a pinstripe suit.

Meh I can agree on that, it sounds pretty reasonable.

 

[Tornado]

I never said it didn't matter. What matters is 2 cars, with completely different purposes, having only .75s difference per mile of track. One is a big-engined, light-weight, designed-for-GT-racing high performance vehicle, the other is a luxury sport tourer that's 10x as safe with twice the build quality. There's a big difference between the vehicles, yet only 3/4 of a second the difference per mile (on average).

That is true. If I remember correctly, no one was surprised when the Z06 pulled it's 7:42.

This is a comparo about engines.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I rate engines by efficiency, effectiveness, and reliability. An 8.3L V10 or a 7.0L V8 making the same horsepower as a 5.0L V10 is NOT efficient. It's a waste of space.

But it is most definately going to be more reliable. And I do believe that the Z06 7.0 is a little less technoligically advanced than the M5 motor (and therefore much cheaper to make), being a pushrod with 2 valves per cylinder. But you don't thin GM could have gotten 500 BHP out of the old 5.7 liter motor, or even the Camaro-only 5.0 liter? It's all marketing.

The M5 and M3 engines both make over 100hp/L, yet your precious 4.4L Northstar V8 uses forced induction to achieve the same hp/L. Both the M3 and M5 engines are statistically better! Fancy that!

The M3 has an Inline-6. It's easier (traditionally) to get high horsepower out of Inline engines because you don't have to work around cylinder banks. Look at Honda. They have Inline-4's pulling 120 BHP/Litre and the most they can get out of their 3.2 V6 for a $100,000 flagship sportscar is 87.5 BHP/Liter. A BMW M3 Inline-6 of the same size get's 111 BHP/Liter in lowest trim. Ferrari only get's astronimical numbers out of V8's and V12's because they have 5-valve engines. The BMW M5 has a V10 with (I believe) 5 valves per cylinder. So that's not actually that good of an indicator of power. It's nothing. Ferrari makes a 4.3 liter that has almost as much power with two less cylinders. So the M5 engine is a waste of space when compared to the Ferrari motor.

Hey my audi quattro is basically just a audi quattro rally car from the 80's then minus rollcage and a couple HP.

Actually, it technically is. Homologation and all.

 

[YSSMAN]

Compare it to the murcelago not gallardo and the sl55 amg please. That thing weighs 2 tonnes and has 355hp. Not fair isit. Oh and prove it.

OK, here you go... In the August 2005 issue of Car and Driver, they compared the Aston Martin DB9, Ferrari F430, Ford GT, Lamborghini Gallarado, Mercedes-Benz SL65 AMG, and Porsche 911 Turbo Cabriolet in a super-car shootout which was supposed to find the best track-inspired performance car available in the US. All cars were ran at the Streets of Willow track in California, a 1.6 mile course often used by American automotive press to test and race cars.

Here are some performance stats:

Aston Martin DB9:
0-60 in 4.8 seconds
0-100 in 10.9 seconds
1/4 mile in 13.2 seconds @ 111
Top Speed of 186 (mfr claim)
Skidpad rating of .90g
Lane-Change at 70.0 MPH
Track time of 1:35.64
EPA fuel ratings 11/19, C/D observed 12

Ferrari F430:
0-60 in 4.1 seconds
0-100 in 9.4 seconds
1/4 mile in 12.5 seconds @ 116
Top Speed of 186 (redline)
Skidpad rating of .96g
Lane-Change at 71.4 MPH
Track time of 1:32.68
EPA fuel ratings 11/16, C/D observed 11

Ford GT:
0-60 in 3.6 seconds
0-100 in 8.4 seconds
1/4 mile in 12.0 seconds @ 123
Top Speed of 205 (gov limit)
Skidpad rating of .94g
Lane-Change at 71.8 MPH
Track time of 1:32.61
EPA fuel ratings 13/21, C/D observed 12

Lamborghini Gallarado (transmission failure during test, specs by E-Gear equipped model from Febuary 2004):
0-60 in 4.1 seconds
0-100 in 9.2 seconds
1/4 mile in 12.4 seconds @ 118
Top Speed of 192 (mfr claim)
Skidpad rating of 1.0g
Lane-Change at N/A
Track time of N/A
EPA fuel ratings 9/15, C/D observed 10

Mercedes Benz SL65 AMG:
0-60 in 4.2 seconds
0-100 in 9.1 seconds
1/4 mile in 12.1 seconds @ 120
Top Speed of 156 (gov limit)
Skidpad rating of .92g
Lane-Change at 69.1 MPH
Track time of 1:34.95
EPA fuel ratings 12/19, C/D observed 12

Porsche 911 Turbo Cabriolet:
0-60 in 4.0 seconds
0-100 in 9.2 seconds
1/4 mile in 12.1 seconds @ 117
Top Speed of 190 (mfr claim)
Skidpad rating of .94g
Lane-Change at 67.6 MPH
Track time of 1:34.97
EPA fuel ratings 15/22, C/D observed 14

After driving them heres how C/D rated them:

5th (tie): Aston Martin DB9
Highs: Body, torquey V-12, great interior
Lows: Bad ride, poor A/C quality, transmission overheating
Verdict: A beautiful car for the mature James Bond

5th (tie): Mercedes-Benz SL65 AMG
Highs: "God's own engine," high comfort and equipement levels, convertable top
Lows: heavy, costly, thirsty
Verdict: The most high-speed tourer in the bunch

4th: Porsche 911 Turbo Cabriolet
Highs: good power delivery, good interior, practical
Lows: 996 design dated, poor ride, "untrustworthy" chassis
Verdict: Still a solid purchse for the Porsche faithful

3rd: Ford GT
Highs: "iImense thrust," grip, looks, value, easy to drive
Lows: Ride hard and noisy, wind roar, difficulty getting in and out, no storage
Verdict: A skillful roadgoing reincarnation of a classic sports racer

2nd: Lamborghini Gallarado
Highs: Exotic presence, V-10 sound, "flexible power"
Lows: Small interior, poor control feel, clunky gated gearshift (lead to distruction of transmission which I believe is number 4 or 5 in Lamborghini transmission problems with C/D)
Verdict: An eye magnet for those who must be seen

1st: Ferrari F430
Highs: "Superb mix of dynamic brilliance," character, versitility
Lows: Price, availability, annoying beeps (everything has a blip or beep in the car to signal a shift, door ajar, etc...)
Verdict: If we had the money, we'd buy one

A completely reasonable comparison test, and I do agree that the Ferrari should have won overall. But performance wise, the GT was dominant in most tests, and as C/D had said, "The easiest to drive." Every automotive magazine I have read that had tested the GT loves the engine and it's massive thrust that allows it to keep up with even the world's best supercars. Although many complaints do lie with the interior and the difficult ingress/egress, most reviews say that it is the dominant American sports car... But now that the Chevrolet Corvette Z06 has come along, that has changed a bit.

 

[amp88]

Any magazine who actually chooses to use a cabriolet in a comparison when they don't need to is missing the point to a certain extent.

 

[YSSMAN]

They said that they had attempted to get a 911 Turbo coupe, but the Porsche test fleet was without one for the test. The man who had loaned C/D his F430 also gave up the keys to his 911 Turbo Cabriolet S as it was the only one available and C/D just had to have a Porsche.

 

[Vonie]

That was a good issue.