Watchmen - Who Watches the Watchmen?

[niky]

I don 't think it did...

Spoiler

with Ozzy as the villain, and the rest of the Watchmen rushing in to play hero by taking him down, it deviates from your typical superhero story in a few ways:

1. Ozzy does the villain's monologue, yet ends it with the rejoinder: "You don't think I'd have told this to you if you still had a chance to stop me, do you?"

2. There is no magical "hero" moment that allows the Watchmen to overpower their obviously superior foe.

3. The "villain" wins, in the end.

 

[FoolKiller]

Maybe it's the sentimentalist in me.... I would have rather seen the idealists win.

Who did win? This is something the book leaves a bigger question mark on because you have more info.

Spoiler

The New Frontiersman, the paper that receives Rorschach's journal, is barely above a tabloid. They are known to make stuff up, but they mainly stick to opinionated bias in their stories. They are so extremist in their views that they agree almost completely with everything Rorschach does. So, even knowing that Rorschach's Journal is going to be published, because The New Frontiersman WILL publish it, you do not know if it will be taken seriously. Also, Dan knows that Rorschach mailed his journal. So, Dan's actions in the end were always odd to me, because I wasn't sure if he backed down in order to get away without bloodshed, knowing the information was already out, or if he really forgot and agreed to let this go forward.

As for Jon's actions. It makes better sense in the book as he was not tied to the event. Jon feels that they have helped humanity, albeit in an I, Robot kind of way. Jon then chooses to leave, because his return to Earth would upset the new balance. He leaves to protect humans from themselves.

My friends had never seen the book either, but most of the movie just went way over their heads. Although i do agree with them that once

I think the way the movie played it out made it seem that way, but it wasn't really.

Spoiler

Sure, there was the final confrontation, but this was the scene that blatantly deconstructs the genre. "I did it 35 minutes ago" does that very well. No last minute save, no battle to the death. The deed is done and in their shock, some of our "heroes" agree with it.

Now, in the book the act is very different in its nature, although the outcome is the same. In the book the act is just off the wall insanity. You look at the images and say, "What the?" Even for a comic it was out there and off the wall. The effect that has on the deconstruction of the genre is mightier than anything else that happens. Bodies are strewn about New York City and this thing is there. Had they been able to make that work in the movie the shock value on the non-book reading audience would have been through the roof.

But they changed it.

 

[Omnis]

I think this movie was soft. I didn't like it very much, and I can see why Alan Moore hates Hollywood so much. I didn't hate it, but I have mixed feelings about it. The story itself eats at my moral conscience and logic. It's like you're soaked and tumbled in the wash and then hung out to dry. It's frustrating.

You guys ask who won. Nobody won. That's the point. It's just like the nuclear conflict and MAD. That's why Dan is disgusted with Adrian. Adrian made everyone lose.

That's what I get from the movie, at least. Maybe I'm missing something from the book.

From the tech side of the film, I would have preferred it if they cut some of the sex and glow-dicks to make way for more character development and a deeper understanding of the conflict. DC Comics (graphic novels no less) are not like Marvel Comics. I'll bet half the audience doesn't know what they're watching and won't care about it afterwards.

 

[Giancarlo]

I thought that there was plenty of character development; we know that Dr. Manhattan is a show-er.

 

[YSSMAN]

I thought that there was plenty of character development; we know that Dr. Manhattan is a show-er.

That's one of the things that bothered me, however. They didn't show the total breakdown of John throughout the movie. They hinted at it, but you really didn't see the nakedness as a representation of his detachment from humanity like you do in the book. There were a lot of subtle points that were left out, which is disappointing. But, I kinda believe that goes back to the question of who you make a movie for when you have a a nine-figure budget to keep in line.

 

[Omnis]

I think my favorite part of the movie was when they were haxing Ozy's Apple. The audible scroll was so nostalgic.

I thought that there was plenty of character development; we know that Dr. Manhattan is a show-er.

No, John is the shower. Dr. Manhattan is a glowing grower. I wouldn't be surprised if the Gateway (aka Gayway) theater down in Ft. Lauderdale has this movie playing in every room. At least we can be grateful that he didn't smash his ding-dong through the glass pyramid.

 

[niky]

@Foolkiller: I guess I really have to read the book, then. It would be interesting to see how the final confrontation happened on paper.

Spoiler

Like I said, it's just a personal dislike of how the ending worked out, but logically, I can't see any other conclusion. No last minute "save the day" moments, for sure. I'll be sure to pick up a copy and do some reading this weekend.

I personally felt it worked very well as a movie. Granted, they did Hollywoodize it a bit, but it came off as being very comic book in its sensibility. Sort of like "Lord of the Rings". There's a movie that altered much of the original story to adapt it to film, yet managed to stay true to the spirit of the story.

Heck, I just finished watching the extended edition (the zillion DVD boxed set was one of the best Christmas presents (bought by my wife with my money... but still... ) ever) and it's amazing just how badly it could have all gone... some scenes that strayed even further from the book were left on the cutting room floor. Which is good. At least knowing what was (thankfully) cut from the films makes the removal of the "Sharky" chapter from the films more understandable.

Spoiler

I'm pretty sure Jackson would have been lynched by an angry mob if they'd left in Saruman's death scene in "The Two Towers".

Like I said, though, temporary 9/10... possibly downgraded when I've read the book.

 

[Omnis]

Good god, Niky, you're right. I just watched it and that scene was dreadful.

 

[FoolKiller]

That's one of the things that bothered me, however. They didn't show the total breakdown of John throughout the movie. They hinted at it, but you really didn't see the nakedness as a representation of his detachment from humanity like you do in the book. There were a lot of subtle points that were left out, which is disappointing. But, I kinda believe that goes back to the question of who you make a movie for when you have a a nine-figure budget to keep in line.

Honetsly, no one got properly developed. From the movie I know more about why Hollis Mason became a vigilante than I do anyone else. Mason's story made sense in an odd way. All the current characters though, why? It doesn't explain it.

I have been thinking about it though and I honestly believe the only way this could be done completely properly is an HBO mini series with a Band of Brothers budget. Or in two to three parts. And then it is still questionable.

No, John is the shower. Dr. Manhattan is a glowing grower. I wouldn't be surprised if the Gateway (aka Gayway) theater down in Ft. Lauderdale has this movie playing in every room. At least we can be grateful that he didn't smash his ding-dong through the glass pyramid.

You are really hung up on this aren't you? The nudity is representative of his loss of humanity. That said, the way it was done was wrong. In the book he appears as the Michealangelo drawing. He was not attempting to represent his past self in any way.

 

[niky]

EDIT: I think the exposed sausage only grates if you're either a female virgin, homophobic, or haven't watched a lot of European artsy-fartsy stuff. I tuned it out, myself.





Took all of thirty minutes, but I tuned it out.

RE: LOTR: As were a lot of others... a lot of deleted scenes from Fellowship, I mourn because they add to the story... some of the scenes between Two Towers and Return of the King, featuring Merry and Pippin, would have done well in the theater... providing some light in what were otherwise grim and dreary movies... but others? They were absolute dreck. One wishes, in fact, that the Legolas Extreme Sports Videos had been left on the cutting room floor, too... but we can't have everything.

 

[niky]

Bump. The pure awesomeness.

 

[Giancarlo]

That's awesome.

 

[Prosthetic]

I thought the movie was pretty good... The fight was pretty corny and I didn't think the movie was intense at all... Some people left it... This being the first "Superhero" movie that I somewhat enjoyed. They usually suck IMO.

 

[Omnis]

You are really hung up on this aren't you? The nudity is representative of his loss of humanity. That said, the way it was done was wrong. In the book he appears as the Michealangelo drawing. He was not attempting to represent his past self in any way.

No. Just poking fun.

 

[Studentdriver]

I just watched this Friday, and it seems I'm in agreement with some here that the final sequence is completely flipped over upon itself. I can't remember the last time I was so angry at a movie. Especially when the key line is uttered by Laurie, of all people, completely out of context. Hopefully this is somehow fixed on the DVD.

 

[FoolKiller]

Well, I have now watched The Black Freighter and Under the Hood on DVD.

I am glad I rented them. Outside of the context of the movie these really just feel out of place.

The Black Freighter is just a gruesome story that reminds me of some of my very old Tales from the Crypt comics as a kid. Without it being juxtaposed into the film the actual message behind it and the comparisons to the film are lost on the viewer. I found myself attempting to make it mesh with my memories from the film, but it was hard to do it. Some of the narrated lines being voiced over the appropriate film sequences would have been awesome. By themselves it is just the rantings of a mad man.

Technically it is well done. Gerard Butler is The Captain. It's only weakness is that a large team worked on this, and not being full-time animation specialists occasionally shows. Things like the water are beautiful, but then the crew of The Black Freighter have stubby arms and somewhat jittery animations. It is almost obvious that multiple people of differing talents put it together. I think that these things would be easily overlooked if it was part of the film and you were caught up in making the comparisons and seeing the overall statement being made.


Under the Hood is the best produced DVD add-on I have ever seen. That is purely what it felt like. This is something you expect to be included on the movie DVD, not as a standalone item. It is important for the movie though. This is where the history of the masked heroes is told in full. There are interviews with Nite Owl 1, Silk Spectre 1, Wally Weaver, Moloch, and even a cameo of The Comedian telling them to get that camera out of his face. But aside from that you learn about Silhouette, Dollar Bill, Mothman, Hooded Justice, Captain Metropolis, and all the other bits of Crimebusters history that would make the movie feel more coherent. You even get the opinions of Bernie, the newspaper vendor. It felt so good to see him discuss how newspaper vendors know everything because they see it all.

Now, what I think would be great for the film would be if they placed some of this footage in the movie somehow and then included more of Hollis Mason, including his death. It would bring the audience into this much more. The biggest drawback to the affect necessary for the audience to understand the severity of what happens in the end is that we do not care about the innocent citizens. All we see of the world are criminals and pedophiles. The film makes the mistake of just showing us the world through Rorschach's eyes. But if it showed even a bit of this stuff you would realize that Rorschach has been in the underworld too long. People are nice. People care.

After watching Stephen McHattie as Hollis Mason, he is as much Hollis as Jackie Earle Hallie is Rorschach. Seeing Hollis Mason, Bernie, the now clean Moloch, and Sally Jupiter you realize that what happens to the world is a huge tragedy.


So, I find myself looking at this and looking at the movie. I know Zack Snyder wants to release a version with The Black Freighter cut in, but if I could pick I think Under the Hood would have a bigger effect on the film. The Black Freighter is just a metaphor to make you think more about the story as it is being told. But Under the Hood causes your emotions to become more tied to the world of Watchmen. It lets you see the things the theatrical cut missed due to time. Add in that the physical connection of The Black Freighter to the story is removed and it becomes nothing but an artistic tool.


Anyway, I think separately these are interesting, but their intended purposes are lost. I am glad I rented it because I do not want this without the film as a part of the whole.

 

[FoolKiller]

A bit of a bonus for PS3 owners if you are going to buy the movie on home video.

http://kotaku.com/5264477/playstation-3-getting-the-total-watchmen-experience

PlayStation 3 Getting The Total Watchmen Experience
By Mike Fahey, 10:40 AM on Thu May 21 2009

The PlayStation 3's Blu-ray drive has its advantages, as proven by the Watchmen: The End is Nigh The Complete Experience, a two-disc set collecting the game and the film for the PlayStation 3.

While the Xbox 360 is getting Watchmen: The End is Nigh Parts 1 and 2 as a standalone retail release, the PlayStation 3 is getting a much more enticing release. The two-disc set combines the director's cut of the Watchmen film with both parts of the downloadable game, with exclusive artwork thrown in for good measure. The director's cut of the movie contains 25 minutes of footage not seen in theaters, but still no giant squid.

The releases will coincide with standard DVD release on July 21st, with The End is Nigh Part 2 also available as a standalone download on Xbox Live Arcade and the PlayStation Network.

 

[FoolKiller]

I recently got the Watchmen Ultimate Cut, and thought I would do a bit of an unboxing. It comes in a massive box with a magnetically sealed flap. I apologize for the cell phone pics.

Front of the box.

Back of the box.

Flap open showing inner cases.

The two cases by themselves.

Inner flaps of the Ultimate Cut case.

Everything exposed.

The Motion Comic is about 6 hours, the movie is 3.5, and then all the special features makes this about 11-12 hours worth of video in total. If you want to count the theatrical version digital copy included as well then you may need to add another 2.5 hours to that. It is a bit insane, and well worth the $30 I got it for.

 

[niky]

Definitely insane! I'd love to add that to my box collection this Christmas!

Any views on how the 3.5 hour cut of the movie compares to the 2+ hour theatrical cut?

 

[Studentdriver]

So I take it they didn't fix the ending?

 

[FoolKiller]

Definitely insane! I'd love to add that to my box collection this Christmas!

Any views on how the 3.5 hour cut of the movie compares to the 2+ hour theatrical cut?

I haven't had an opportunity to watch it yet. But it is just Tales of the Black Freighter cut into the director's cut, both of which I have seen. The only addition from the director's cut is more of the Bernies as it cuts in and out of the Black Freighter story.

The Director's Cut however, is infinitely better as it flushes out the characters more. And more of Hollis Mason, including his death scene, which is 100% pure awesome.

So I take it they didn't fix the ending?

Define fix. It still ends the same and I think the director's cut has a few more minutes (if that much) of moral debate stuff added. But that's it.

If you are looking for a squid you won't find it here (or anywhere). Although the motion comics are lifted straight out of the book. I could actually follow along with it and compare shots. The voice acting is just one guy though, and so all the females sound like transvestites.

 

[Studentdriver]

Well I wasn't exactly expecting a squid, but I did expect "Nothing ever ends" to come out of the right mouth (and in the right context) this time.