What fur farms really do.

[Danny]

People just assume the "Slavedrivers" are bad. They don't need much coverage, although granted they don't get much.

 

[PS]

True, but how many videos are made an spun to make it look like those people are evil? Not to many. But we're evil for eating a chicken sandwich. See my point?

Yah, but how many chickens are skinned and beaten and left to slowly die before they're eaten?

 

[Swift]

Yah, but how many chickens are skinned and beaten and left to slowly die before they're eaten?

Honestly, I'm not worried about it. Why? Because chickens on a chicken farm are born to die. That is there purpose to become food for humans. When you see a purdue chicken in the store, it usually says "young chicken" Meaning it didn't have the longest most fulfilling life a chicken could have. Well, so? It was born in a chicken farm.

But besides where it was born, we're talking about animals here. Now, I don't think animals should be constantaly tortured. But I look at it this way. If/when we stop cruelty to humans from humans, then I'll worry about cruelty towards animals farmed for food, OK?

 

[PS]

Honestly, I'm not worried about it. Why? Because chickens on a chicken farm are born to die. That is there purpose to become food for humans. When you see a purdue chicken in the store, it usually says "young chicken" Meaning it didn't have the longest most fulfilling life a chicken could have. Well, so? It was born in a chicken farm.

But besides where it was born, we're talking about animals here. Now, I don't think animals should be constantaly tortured. But I look at it this way. If/when we stop cruelty to humans from humans, then I'll worry about cruelty towards animals farmed for food, OK?

You've got a surprisingly sadistic and arrogant demeanour.

 

[Hell Raiser]

You've got a surprisingly sadistic and arrogant demeanour.

I'm sorry,but I think Swift nailed it on the head.While people whine and cry about chickens and racoons,there are thousands of people( children,old people) dying every hour on the hour,either because they have no food or water,or because of war......................And frankly I don't see a lot of people giving a damn about them,So I say to hell with chickens,cows,racoons........WHATEVER............... let them die

 

[Swift]

You've got a surprisingly sadistic and arrogant demeanour.

Why? Because I value human life over animals? I like animals a lot. Horses, dogs, large birds and especially tigers. But you know what, as cool at they are, they're not people. Sure they deserve a chance to live an all. But not more then you or I.

So if it's arrogant to think that humans are on a more valued level then animals, then call me arrogant.

EDIT: Thanks Hellraiser. I'm not particularly fond of your username, but what you said was on the money.

 

[keram]

Those African people are dying from lack of water and FOOD.

food can be things like chickens and cows (but not racoons ) so if they die then there is nothing to eat and people die.
Of course no one wants to go vegatarian.

 

[Swift]

Those African people are dying from lack of water and FOOD.

So what are the American or British people dying from?

 

[PS]

So what are the American or British people dying from?

Other people. And cancer. Mostly.

 

[Swift]

Other people. And cancer. Mostly.

As hard as it might be to believe, people in America starve to death. Rough thought huh?

Anyway, I say let's worry about humans first and animals second.

 

[Saleen Man]

I'm not in any way saying that animals should be treated better than humans, that's crazy talk. I'm also not supporting PETA when I say that video is disgusting. I'm merely saying that animals should be treated better than they were in the video.

 

[PS]

As hard as it might be to believe, people in America starve to death. Rough thought huh?

Anyway, I say let's worry about humans first and animals second.

Not hard to believe at all, but the death tallies comprises of what, 1% starvation?

There are many homeless folks in America, and there's no doubt most of them are starving or malnourished. But if America is "the land of opportunity", why aren't there less homeless? Ultimately, being homeless is just the result of someone's poor choices and they should take responsiblity for it. They should try to take care of themselves better, or revise your school programs.


Animals have to be taken care of, especially domesticated ones, because they lack the ability to take care of themselves. An animal can not make the "right" or "wrong" choice: it lacks the capacity to do so. So we must intervene and support them if possible. Sure a cat can catch a mouse, but will it find enouogh food and water to survive? It won't just adapt in a matter of days to its' environment, that takes years of breeding and adaptation, or even worse, climate change.

Putting a human before an animal just because someone thinks they're smarter (which is debateable, because animals don't start wars, kill senselessly, oppress other cultures, control people, force their beliefs onto others, or completely destroy their habitat) than an animal is, in my opinion, arrogant. And that doesn't justify, in the least, the cruel treatment of animals, even if they were raised to be slaughtered. Treat them humanely, or you will pay, in one way or another.

 

[Swift]

Not hard to believe at all, but the death tallies comprises of what, 1% starvation?

There are many homeless folks in America, and there's no doubt most of them are starving or malnourished. But if America is "the land of opportunity", why aren't there less homeless? Ultimately, being homeless is just the result of someone's poor choices and they should take responsiblity for it. They should try to take care of themselves better, or revise your school programs.

Putting a human before an animal just because someone thinks they're smarter (which is debateable, because animals don't start wars, kill senselessly, oppress other cultures, control people, force their beliefs onto others, or completely destroy their habitat) than an animal is, in my opinion, arrogant. And that doesn't justify, in the least, the cruel treatment of animals, even if they were raised to be slaughtered. Treat them humanely, or you will pay, in one way or another.

To the first part. If a person is laid off from their job and this causes them to loose what they have because they weren't able to find a job quickly, is that all their fault?

To the second part. How am I going to pay? YOu don't believe in God, so who's going to make me pay for slaughtering animals?

Again, I'm not an advocate of animal cruelty. I just think it's amazing how people will bend over backwards for a baby seal but won't help someone they KNOW on the street.

 

[Hell Raiser]

P.S. Man you are going off on the deep end here,it's either you have nothing better to do(which is very obvious),or just just trying to start something.Either way it doesn't matter,because people will keep on doing what they have been doing for the longest.I saw the video,and to say I was not moved by what I saw would be a lie,but then I could show you some footage form different parts of the world,videos about real human beings,that would make you faint.We live in a cruel world,grow up and get used to it

 

[Hell Raiser]

EDIT: Thanks Hellraiser. I'm not particularly fond of your username, but what you said was on the money.

LOL,Man I have not raised any hell here,have I?

 

[Swift]

LOL,Man I have not raised any hell here,have I?

Not that I've noticed. I'm just not a big fan of the use of the word "hell"

 

[Hell Raiser]

Not that I've noticed. I'm just not a big fan of the use of the word "hell"

Point taken,Swift

Now back to the topic before Swift warns us.........................LOL

 

[FoolKiller]

Putting a human before an animal just because someone thinks they're smarter (which is debateable, because animals don't start wars, kill senselessly, oppress other cultures, control people, force their beliefs onto others, or completely destroy their habitat) than an animal is, in my opinion, arrogant. And that doesn't justify, in the least, the cruel treatment of animals, even if they were raised to be slaughtered. Treat them humanely, or you will pay, in one way or another.

Have you ever watched Animal Planet or Discovery or National Geographic or any of the other nature based channels? Animals will kill their own kind for territory, food, mates, or just because they saw each other. Animals kill other types regularly and not always for food. Sometimes they just don't want the other one there. Animals that live in colonies of any form oppress each other left and right in monarchy/slave type cultures. The male lion is leader of his pride but his only purpose is to mate while the females must hunt. If a male lion cub appears to be a threat to the adult male the adult male will kill him. Gorillas battle for Alpha Male positions all the time, sometimes killing each other. Birds will steal nest from other birds, destroying the previous owners' eggs. Many insects have colonies with queens and workers (slaves). If you don't participate in this structure you die. Have you ever heard of survival of the fittest? That is essentially you die because you are weak. End of story.

Call me arrogant all you want, but I have opposable thumbs, a larger brain, tools that do more than get me food and kill other people, I can survive without worrying about physical prowess, we have constructed buidlings and cities that are a testament to our intelligence to house many people in a small footprint, and we have video games. So, yes, I think I am better than animals. At least my entire life doesn't have to revolve around sex and food. I occasionally think about sports and Gran Turismo too.

Is it cruel to skin an animal alive? Yes. I would rather see them killed quickly, but if I had to chose between stopping the torture of a human or an animal I would save the human without a thought. Which would you save?

Don't get me wrong here, what happened in that video was horrible and I hope the man doing it meets up with a rabid raccoon one day. A bullet, knife, or spike would do the job fine. But if you expect me to not think that the plight of a starving or tortured human being forced into slavery in Africa is not greater than the plight of the raccoon then you are wrong. No animal, including my pet, will come before a human.

 

[Grand Prix]

"One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic." - Joesph Stalin

I think that quote sums up human nature quite well. We can be compassionate to the most immediate suffering of a human/animal. However, when we are in a battlefield surrounded by dead soldiers, we don't really care anymore. We cry when a child dies, but do we cry 10,000 times as much tears when we see 10,000 African children die? No, of course not. Sure, we might cry for five times longer, but never 10,000 times longer. It is impossible to do. When we read reports of a massacre in Rwanda, we are shocked, but we don't feel compassion because we don't know those people, and because the number is too great for us to care.
That is how we can be disgusted by a raccoon being skinned alive, and never bother to give $100 to a homeless person.

 

[Swift]

"One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic." - Joesph Stalin

I think that quote sums up human nature quite well. We can be compassionate to the most immediate suffering of a human/animal. However, when we are in a battlefield surrounded by dead soldiers, we don't really care anymore. We cry when a child dies, but do we cry 10,000 times as much tears when we see 10,000 African children die? No, of course not. Sure, we might cry for five times longer, but never 10,000 times longer. It is impossible to do. When we read reports of a massacre in Rwanda, we are shocked, but we don't feel compassion because we don't know those people, and because the number is too great for us to care.
That is how we can be disgusted by a raccoon being skinned alive, and never bother to give $100 to a homeless person.

Don't get me wrong here, what happened in that video was horrible and I hope the man doing it meets up with a rabid raccoon one day. A bullet, knife, or spike would do the job fine. But if you expect me to not think that the plight of a starving or tortured human being forced into slavery in Africa is not greater than the plight of the raccoon then you are wrong. No animal, including my pet, will come before a human.

Well said gentlemen.

 

[Roo]

I do sometimes wonder if members of PETA and suchlike assume that if thgey work hard for animals, the animals will 1) live forever and 2) thank them for it. Everything dies eventually. I can appriciate how the skinning alive of a racoon is unjustifiable when a poke in the right place with a knife would be better, but how many racoons die every day by, say, being eaten alive*, or through disease and eventually hunger?

In terms of farming animals for food: if I had the choice between living in a shed, with plenty of food and water, but a quick early death, or living in the wild, fighting for survival every day, and eventually dying from an infected wound over a matter of weeks, then show me the shed door and hand me that bolt gun. Easy choice.


*Does anything eat racoons? I've no idea. That was just an example.

Incidentally, no I'm not any good at arguing and getting my point across.

 

[FoolKiller]

*Does anything eat racoons? I've no idea. That was just an example.

All kinds of things. Foxes, wolves, coyotes, any large wildcat such as bobcats, mountain lions/pumas, and I am sure there are other predators too. I can picture one washing his little apple in the lake only to have an alligator pop out, grab him, and pull him under. That's just America. Other places have much more vicious predators that I am sure would happily gobble up a raccoon.

Maybe I should quit watching Animal Planet. I just have a fascination with watching a cheetah chase down some helpless gazelle.

 

[PS]

To the first part. If a person is laid off from their job and this causes them to loose what they have because they weren't able to find a job quickly, is that all their fault?

I agree that some part of it is due to bad luck, but it's still up to that person to have had preparation for a "rainy day" and a resume on tap, because you never know.

To the second part. How am I going to pay? YOu don't believe in God, so who's going to make me pay for slaughtering animals?

The law. The government. A cranky old man with private property. Anyone.

Again, I'm not an advocate of animal cruelty. I just think it's amazing how people will bend over backwards for a baby seal but won't help someone they KNOW on the street.

Because that person brought it upon themselves, that baby seal as you so eloquently put it, didn't have the capacity to make a poor decision. But, if a human was being skinned alive, I'd still have to kick that persons' ass for doing it. Maybe even skin them. See how they like it. And it's not the company's fault for firing the bugger, maybe he sucked at his job? Maybe he was stealing? Sleeping on the job? Not following protocol, or was being a safety hazard? Again, much of it is brought upon themselves.

P.S. Man you are going off on the deep end here,it's either you have nothing better to do(which is very obvious),or just just trying to start something.Either way it doesn't matter,because people will keep on doing what they have been doing for the longest.I saw the video,and to say I was not moved by what I saw would be a lie,but then I could show you some footage form different parts of the world,videos about real human beings,that would make you faint.We live in a cruel world,grow up and get used to it

It's very obvious, is it? Well, at least it's comforting to know that I'll be attacked for my beliefs on the internet by someone so bothered by them. I don't care if you were moved or not by the video, it's a man skinning a living critter alive. I don't care if it was a wale, a dog, a baby, or your grandma, he wasn't right.
Oh, and it's "PS".

Have you ever watched Animal Planet or Discovery or National Geographic or any of the other nature based channels? Animals will kill their own kind for territory, food, mates, or just because they saw each other. Animals kill other types regularly and not always for food.

I am well aware of that and acknowledge your point. However, animals lack the capacity to distinguish between right and wrong. You don't leave a package of cookies on the counter in front of a five year old and expect him not to eat it, and then punish him without telling him why.

The male lion is leader of his pride but his only purpose is to mate while the females must hunt. If a male lion cub appears to be a threat to the adult male the adult male will kill him. Gorillas battle for Alpha Male positions all the time, sometimes killing each other. Birds will steal nest from other birds, destroying the previous owners' eggs. Many insects have colonies with queens and workers (slaves). If you don't participate in this structure you die. Have you ever heard of survival of the fittest? That is essentially you die because you are weak. End of story.

Once again, well aware. Your point? If we're so smart, why can't we rise above, and, if we're so capable, treat those creatures with the respect they deserve? They feed us, they might as well die as quickly or painlessly as possible. In the animal world, it's every man for himself, but it's not in ours and we shouldn't be forced to act like that.

Call me arrogant all you want, but I have opposable thumbs, a larger brain, tools that do more than get me food and kill other people, I can survive without worrying about physical prowess, we have constructed buidlings and cities that are a testament to our intelligence to house many people in a small footprint, and we have video games. So, yes, I think I am better than animals. At least my entire life doesn't have to revolve around sex and food. I occasionally think about sports and Gran Turismo too.

Larger brains mean nothing more than wasted space. It's the efficiency of themind that counts, and thats where as so many of you say we excell: our minds. If that's true, then why do we destroy our own environments we live in and kill and maim each other if we're consciously able to not do it?

Is it cruel to skin an animal alive? Yes. I would rather see them killed quickly, but if I had to chose between stopping the torture of a human or an animal I would save the human without a thought. Which would you save?

It's not a question of who would I save, it's who would I punish.

Don't get me wrong here, what happened in that video was horrible and I hope the man doing it meets up with a rabid raccoon one day. A bullet, knife, or spike would do the job fine. But if you expect me to not think that the plight of a starving or tortured human being forced into slavery in Africa is not greater than the plight of the raccoon then you are wrong. No animal, including my pet, will come before a human.

I expected as much, and I respect that. I'm kind of the same way, but it's justice, not salvation that's in my mind.

Prix "One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic." - Joesph Stalin

I think that quote sums up human nature quite well. We can be compassionate to the most immediate suffering of a human/animal. However, when we are in a battlefield surrounded by dead soldiers, we don't really care anymore. We cry when a child dies, but do we cry 10,000 times as much tears when we see 10,000 African children die? No, of course not. Sure, we might cry for five times longer, but never 10,000 times longer. It is impossible to do. When we read reports of a massacre in Rwanda, we are shocked, but we don't feel compassion because we don't know those people, and because the number is too great for us to care.
That is how we can be disgusted by a raccoon being skinned alive, and never bother to give $100 to a homeless person.

I understand your point of disconnection, and it is valid. But I tend to think more along the lines of "Who is at fault" rather than "Who should be saved". For every action, there is a reaction, and for every crime, there is a consequence.

All kinds of things. Foxes, wolves, coyotes, any large wildcat such as bobcats, mountain lions/pumas, and I am sure there are other predators too. I can picture one washing his little apple in the lake only to have an alligator pop out, grab him, and pull him under. That's just America. Other places have much more vicious predators that I am sure would happily gobble up a raccoon.

Maybe I should quit watching Animal Planet. I just have a fascination with watching a cheetah chase down some helpless gazelle.

The animal world is indeed interesting, but we are and aren't animals, if you get my drift.





So, in my conclusion, I ask "what has everyone gathered from this post today"?

 

[Hell Raiser]

It's very obvious, is it? Well, at least it's comforting to know that I'll be attacked for my beliefs on the internet by someone so bothered by them. I don't care if you were moved or not by the video, it's a man skinning a living critter alive. I don't care if it was a wale, a dog, a baby, or your grandma, he wasn't right.
Oh, and it's "PS"

Who the hell is bothered?.........I think it's moronic of you to think that I would give a damn for what you believe in.
Yes the guy skinning the racoon was,taking things a little too far,and I hope to God that he would meet someone to do him the same way he did that racoon,but like Swift said,if it comes down to saving a human life or an animal's life,I sure as hell will be saving the human's.
If you had bothered to read an earlier post that i had you would know that there is a lot of human suffering out there,and I would be concerned with that far more than I would be with the animals.As for what we have learned today....................well................if you ever come out of your shell,i'd tell you "WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD"

 

[FoolKiller]

I am well aware of that and acknowledge your point. However, animals lack the capacity to distinguish between right and wrong. You don't leave a package of cookies on the counter in front of a five year old and expect him not to eat it, and then punish him without telling him why.

Once again, well aware. Your point? If we're so smart, why can't we rise above, and, if we're so capable, treat those creatures with the respect they deserve? They feed us, they might as well die as quickly or painlessly as possible. In the animal world, it's every man for himself, but it's not in ours and we shouldn't be forced to act like that.

My point is that I am responding to you saying

Putting a human before an animal just because someone thinks they're smarter (which is debateable, because animals don't start wars, kill senselessly, oppress other cultures, control people, force their beliefs onto others, or completely destroy their habitat) than an animal is, in my opinion, arrogant.

I am showing how they do kill senselessly, enslave each other, and when left unchecked sometimes can destroy their habitat.

Larger brains mean nothing more than wasted space. It's the efficiency of themind that counts, and thats where as so many of you say we excell: our minds. If that's true, then why do we destroy our own environments we live in and kill and maim each other if we're consciously able to not do it?

It's not a question of who would I save, it's who would I punish.

Let me rephrase that to say more efficient minds. Humans have the ability of self awareness which allows them to weigh the cost/benefit ratio of things such as wars, death penalty, and even crime and then come to their own decisions. I can also rephrase my question in a who do you punish format. Who do you punish, the man torturing the raccoon or the BTK killer?

The animal world is indeed interesting, but we are and aren't animals, if you get my drift.

I get it, but tht only humans I consider animals are tht ones who can kill, rape, or torture without remorse. And a serial killer saying he is sorry during sentencing doesn't count in my book. When a dictator can commit genocide and then refer to the people he killed as dogs at his trial, he is an animal.

So, in my conclusion, I ask "what has everyone gathered from this post today"?

That we all agree that the guy in the video is sick but we all have a different opinion of how important the issue of his being dealt with is. Pretty much we all have a different opinion.

 

[PS]

Who the hell is bothered?.........I think it's moronic of you to think that I would give a damn for what you believe in.
Yes the guy skinning the racoon was,taking things a little too far,and I hope to God that he would meet someone to do him the same way he did that racoon,but like Swift said,if it comes down to saving a human life or an animal's life,I sure as hell will be saving the human's.
If you had bothered to read an earlier post that i had you would know that there is a lot of human suffering out there,and I would be concerned with that far more than I would be with the animals.As for what we have learned today....................well................if you ever come out of your shell,i'd tell you "WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD"

Welcome to the real world? Have you seen the Creation Vs. Evolution thread?


I don't think in terms of "Who do I save" or "Who is more important"—that's just plain righteous thinking—I think in terms of "Who is held accountable for their actions", which, is actually a lot more logical and achievable.

 

[PS]

My point is that I am responding to you saying
I am showing how they do kill senselessly, enslave each other, and when left unchecked sometimes can destroy their habitat.

Ah, but the differance between them and us is that we know better—or claim to—and look down upon them for it. Oftentimes it's not senseless, you just said yourself it's for territory or because another animal felt threatened. If you felt threatened, would you sit idly by while someone sodomized you with a plunger handle?

Let me rephrase that to say more efficient minds. Humans have the ability of self awareness which allows them to weigh the cost/benefit ratio of things such as wars, death penalty, and even crime and then come to their own decisions. I can also rephrase my question in a who do you punish format. Who do you punish, the man torturing the raccoon or the BTK killer?

When an animal refuses to take a walk through a forest fire, do you not think they're taking into consideration the cost:benefit ratio?

And the BTK killer is on a completely different level; he had a split personality disorder and many serial killers have a background history of mental/verbal/physical/sexual abuse or other torments.

I get it, but tht only humans I consider animals are tht ones who can kill, rape, or torture without remorse. And a serial killer saying he is sorry during sentencing doesn't count in my book. When a dictator can commit genocide and then refer to the people he killed as dogs at his trial, he is an animal.

True.

That we all agree that the guy in the video is sick but we all have a different opinion of how important the issue of his being dealt with is. Pretty much we all have a different opinion.

True.

 

[sicbeing]

Plants are alive too! They are just easier to catch... yum

 

[Swift]

Welcome to the real world? Have you seen the Creation Vs. Evolution thread?


I don't think in terms of "Who do I save" or "Who is more important"—that's just plain righteous thinking—I think in terms of "Who is held accountable for their actions", which, is actually a lot more logical and achievable.

Ok, so there's a drowning cat and a drowning child. You can't save both, who do you save?

 

[FoolKiller]

Ah, but the differance between them and us is that we know better—or claim to—and look down upon them for it. Oftentimes it's not senseless, you just said yourself it's for territory or because another animal felt threatened.

Doesn't the fact that we know better and the majority of humans choose to not act on the impulse to shoot someone for their house, or not even have the impulse to begin with, make us better. Most humans don't kill or steal from each other. When someone does the rest try to find and punish the guilty party. In the animal kingdom it is survival of the fittest. If humans lived that way we would never have built skyscrapers or organized a democracy of any form. In fact all of western civilization would have never existed. When Hitler decided killing people for who they are or so that he could take their country over the rest of the world stood up to him. When a tiger kills other tigers for more territory and females other tigers do nothing.

When an animal refuses to take a walk through a forest fire, do you not think they're taking into consideration the cost:benefit ratio?

And the BTK killer is on a completely different level; he had a split personality disorder and many serial killers have a background history of mental/verbal/physical/sexual abuse or other torments.

The animals avoid fire out of instinct. They never run through the fire, only away from it. Nor do they ever jump in to save another. Mothers protect offspring as much as they can but in the end will choose to live another day if they have to. They can always have more offspring but they only get one life. Humans die to save others.

I honestly believe that one day we will discover that murderers, rapists, and pedophiles have a different brain set up than others. Crimes of passion or necessity are on a different (or temporary) level but a premeditated crime of this nature requires an almost animalistic quality, for lack of a better term. For me it puts them on the level of an animal, as did the actions of the man in the video.

would you sit idly by while someone sodomized you with a plunger handle?

Will he be gentle?