What is Pd's massive obsession with cheating one way rubberband ai and catch the rabbit events?

  • Thread starter mercgoat
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The rubber banding is super annoying, along with the "chase the rabbit" format. I prefer to take a car that's down 50 to 100PP in almost all races just to keep everything exciting, as it's no fun to just decimate the field. But when you have a slightly less equal car in a race, the front runners start DUSTING me when I catch up, usually pulling away HARD on the straights, but then when I'm past it is very rare they keep pressure on. They usually seem to "give up" which is disheartening. Sometimes this forces some tuning to up-rate PP just to have a chance against a straight line AI bomber on a track with long straights.

But... the one thing.... that drives me UP THE WALL... is their total lack of awareness when you're a partial or full car past them. The amount of times I've yelled obscenities at the screen because some A-hole AI pushed into my rear quarter AND THEN CONTINUED TO PUSH until I'm at full steering lock and too far gone is INSANE. I notice they have some awareness when going into braking zones and other scenarios where it's apparent they are giving you room, but it's like all bets are off once you are past them, then you either don't exist, of they've formed some cyberdyne robot vendetta against you. I've had MANY a restart from a moronic AI, and it's just something that really sucks about racing with the current AI.
 
wakawakawaka
I am deeply perplexed.
Isn't the age at which you become aware that there is something fishy going on with AI cars pace in GT, also the age you wanna realize that racing AI cars, in any game, was never meant for someone your age?
And from that age on, all the AI racing you would be doing in a racing game you would exclusively do out of absolute necessity, and you couldn't care less about realistic/unrealistic behaviour by AI.
Which is why the existence of this thread is such an insane paradox.
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Not everybody is interested in racing online with others. I have always prefered racing against AI no matter how bad they are.
 
XSquareStickIt
I am entirely convinced that PD are wholly incapable of programming semi competent AI, which is why these chase the rabbit style "races" is the only way PD can give us any sort of a goal or semblance of a challenge.
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I see it the same way. GT7 would be such a great game with better AI and quallifying modes an therefore real races. Than we would not need to grind for every car, just the car you like and want to have competetive racing. I am playing racing games since the early 90s and since the end of the 1990 there have been better AI in most any racing game than GT7. Specially adjustable AI to find the competition you like. Imagine GT7 with ACC AI and game modes, would be a bomb.
 
For me personally the AI in GT7 Is an example of how real humans should behave. I know, it’s a very unpopular and unconventional Statement, but let me explain what I mean.
My Goal is ALWAYS to have the most clean and realistic race experience I can get, that’s what I aim for when I drive Racing Games. Be it against Humans or AI, I don’t differentiate.
I NEVER enter a race with the Mindset to win at any Cost. Never.
My goal is to pass every Car on Track as clean as possible. NO Contact, never.
And with GT7 AI, it’s a pleasure to play that way.
They race super clean.
I treat them with the same respect as I would treat any Human In Lobbies.
That’s my Mindset.
I don’t care if I win or loose.
Look, just yesterday I completed and golded all of the Cafe Books.
I ALWAYS kept it at least 50-100 pp below the restrictions.
I ONLY used Sports Hard Tires for every Event except the Final GT3 World Event.
IN 99.9% of ALL the Events I managed to not make Contact with any other Drivers, and the same goes for them.
They behaved very clean and trustworthy and made all the Events a pure pleasure and a seriously tough challenge.
That’s what I extremely appreciate about racing AI in GT7, and it’s difficulty in general.
You can set it up perfectly to your likings and have a hell of a fun.
Of course for someone who only cares for passing every other as fast as possible and only cares for Wins, it might be a different Story.
Might be an unique opinion but that’s how I am 😉
 
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It's pretty simple my dudes. It's one of many small inconspicuous mechanics that directly affects the average earning rate of credits. They know most of their users are naive and/or lack a basic understanding of software development, system design and how these systems affect revenue streams and will have opinions like "they are clearly incompetent" lol.

This is all deliberate, goes undetected by most and absolutely does result in more microtransaction sales.

When people say "the game is designed around MTX" this is one of hundreds of examples of that. All the little things add up. If every design decision was based on the objective of creating a fun and captivating game, we'd have nearly a completely different game.
 
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XSquareStickIt
I am entirely convinced that PD are wholly incapable of programming semi competent AI, which is why these chase the rabbit style "races" is the only way PD can give us any sort of a goal or semblance of a challenge.
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Pretty sure it's this^ the main reason.

Sophy AI can't be implemented into the game because otherwise 99.99% of the playerbase won't win races. As you guys could see in the demo videos, the AI was destroying the best players in GT Sport, Nations Cup champions. What chance does the average joe like us have?


It's not about making a fast AI, it's about making it balanced and inteligent.

The GT7 AI is to date the best AI in the Gran Turismo franchise, but, the AI in other GT games was absolutely dredful, so it's not much of a compliment.
The AI in GT7 doesn't even respect blue flags, that's a massive disappointment. They do respect yellows though.
kraftwerkd
GT4 still had a little bit of the catch-the-rabbit going on, but because the grid was only 5 opponents and the pool to select those opponents could be 20-30 different cars, the chances of seeing that type of race was pretty slim - but it still happened from time to time. Now with larger grids and potentially smaller pools to pick from, it's pretty much guaranteed you're going to spawn a "rabbit" in the grid.
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GT4 catch the rabbit was much less used than from GT5 upwards. Half the tracks you had rolling starts and the other half was grid starts. And, as you said, you only had 5 opponents, so the leader was only a couple of seconds ahead of you and not over 10, or sometimes 30-40 like in the games after it. GT4 also had no rubberbanding...

And GT4 also had something that no other Gran Turismo even to this day has... Qualifying. It only existed in the Championship format, not in single race format, but that was good enough, you could qualify, post a faster time than the AI and start in pole position or simply higher up the grid, and this would apply to any track be it rolling start or grid start.

It baffles me why PD removed Qualifying from GT5 and continues to this day not integrate it in the game. It's just... shocking. One of the most important parts of a racing game and it's not even in the game, and yet it was available in an older game of the same franchise.
It's just... Why????

If they want to give us a challenge, just make the restrictions harsher on us, like 50pp less than the AI or something, and do so according to the setting we choose (since not all players are good or great at playing this game), but allow us to qualify for a higher grid position, and not a rolling start EVERY time with the AI over 20 seconds in the lead and we have to treat that race like the other cars are nothing more than moving roadblocks.
 
wakawakawaka
Clearly Polyphony Digital doesn't think that way. The reason the AI races are like that is because they're intended for young players/beginners to get started in the game, before moving on to what PD must consider greater things.
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Ah, anyone who wants competent AI must be young or a beginner?

That would be a nope, and also fails to explain the equally bad AI in the GT titles without an online focus.

It also ignores the fact that the majority of players don't race online.
wakawakawaka
Once you start reaching your potential, the actual way to enjoy GT to the fullest when not competing against other human drivers, is spending hours in time trial mode pushing yourself on the track and your car in the tuning screen, ending up fighting for thousandths of a second, or a few points in drift mode.
Not to mention other parts of the game like photo mode or livery making.
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Ah, now you've pivoted to 'you're trying to enjoy it the wrong way'.
wakawakawaka
GT was made by perfectionists for perfectionists to obsess over, racing the AI may take a lot of space in the UI and seem like it's the main thing, but it's actually level 1 of 50.
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It's really, really not. It's a series that has always favoured visuals over physics accuracy, and as such is way behind the curve in as many areas as its ahead.

Its not even in the upper 50 percentile in a good number of areas, and all excusing these issues does is result in a lack of serious development in them.

Grimm6Jack
And GT4 also had something that no other Gran Turismo even to this day has...
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Untrue, the original also had qualifying.
 
Lomic
Why don't they give space when you are inside a turn (not dive-bombing) ? Why they shove you in the grass if you are outside ? Why they punt you if you brake a bit too much instead of trying to avoid contact ? (as you do for a very good reason)
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But they give space, actually quite a lot. I didn’t got shoved wide or punted deliberately not even once. We raced super close in an extremely clean and fair manner throughout all of the Events.
They absolutely give their best to avoid Contact. So do I.
It’s all about how you approach the Race.
Like I mentioned before, your Mindset how you treat GT7 is crucial to have an incredibly pleasing experience.
You don’t believe me?! 😁
No problem, just check some of my Replays I shared on my Profile Page. Go ahead. Convince yourself, I got nothing to hide nor am I lying a single bit I can prove it with 100% Confidence 🙂
I just uploaded 3 or 4 Replays but if you wish I can upload more.
I have saved them almost all.
 
AI are awful in this game. Ridiculous rubberbanding in the World GT Series. AI backing off massively when being overtaken. GT is yet to make a good AI as I remember this rubberbanding has been going on in GT3 already. PD are behind the competition when it comes to their AI and also using chase the rabbit that was most likely inspired from arcade racing games of the 80s. Thankfully finished GT Café and unlocked all the tracks so no more AI for me until maybe GT Sophy comes. They're nice for getting free wins but it's not enough competition for me.
 
Barring SOPHI which is some long term goal, AI seems to be a very low priority on PD list, much the same cut and paste from previous games.

One thing that should be obvious is the AI has zero awareness of what's behind them and don't make any attempt to protect it's line or position, it just follows the racing line.
It's why when passing them, they become very easy to predict where there going to be at a turn, and the mid turn brake check they do.
 
Scaff
Untrue, the original also had qualifying.
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It's been over 20 years since I last played those games (GT1 and GT2). I was a little kid back then, apologies if I don't remember.

But still, it stands, that GT4 was the last Gran Turismo with qualifying. GT5 was when it really started with the hardcore 20-30 second chase the rabbit races without qualifying for any race.
 
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Grimm6Jack
Pretty sure it's this^ the main reason.

Sophy AI can't be implemented into the game because otherwise 99.99% of the playerbase won't win races. As you guys could see in the demo videos, the AI was destroying the best players in GT Sport, Nations Cup champions. What chance does the average joe like us have?


It's not about making a fast AI, it's about making it balanced and inteligent.

The GT7 AI is to date the best AI in the Gran Turismo franchise, but, the AI in other GT games was absolutely dredful, so it's not much of a compliment.
The AI in GT7 doesn't even respect blue flags, that's a massive disappointment. They do respect yellows though.

GT4 catch the rabbit was much less used than from GT5 upwards. Half the tracks you had rolling starts and the other half was grid starts. And, as you said, you only had 5 opponents, so the leader was only a couple of seconds ahead of you and not over 10, or sometimes 30-40 like in the games after it. GT4 also had no rubberbanding...

And GT4 also had something that no other Gran Turismo even to this day has... Qualifying. It only existed in the Championship format, not in single race format, but that was good enough, you could qualify, post a faster time than the AI and start in pole position or simply higher up the grid, and this would apply to any track be it rolling start or grid start.

It baffles me why PD removed Qualifying from GT5 and continues to this day not integrate it in the game. It's just... shocking. One of the most important parts of a racing game and it's not even in the game, and yet it was available in an older game of the same franchise.
It's just... Why????

If they want to give us a challenge, just make the restrictions harsher on us, like 50pp less than the AI or something, and do so according to the setting we choose (since not all players are good or great at playing this game), but allow us to qualify for a higher grid position, and not a rolling start EVERY time with the AI over 20 seconds in the lead and we have to treat that race like the other cars are nothing more than moving roadblocks.
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GT1 andGT3 also had qualifying sessions. I very much miss them along with practice sessions to set your car up.
Actually GT1 or GT2 AI is pretty good and fun when you set your car just right.
 
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karelpipa
GT1 andGT3 also had qualifying sessions. I very much miss them along with practice sessions to set your car up.
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Practice is one thing... You can just know which tracks you are going to race beforehand and then practice yourself in Time Trial.

Qualifying however should be a must in a game like this.
 
Zero2Oblivion
I think most people may be misunderstanding the situation, and calling something "rubber banding" when it's not.
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Yeah the other thing people think is "rubberbanding" is they'll start a race and be catching first place at some hilarious rate, and then it'll stop midway through the race (because a faster AI car passed the leader) and people assume the AI suddenly picked up speed, when really the player wasn't actually catching the faster AI car all along.
 
meekrab
and then it'll stop midway through the race (because a faster AI car passed the leader)
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what was he doing all this time ? waiting for you to be 1st ? if he is that fast all the time, he should have taken the lead long before you get there, and be far away when you finally take 2nds spot
 
wheelhp
I highly doubt PD are such terrible devs that they couldn't even make a competitive AI if they wanted to. They have the funding of Sony, GT7 being a First party title.
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There are actually events where the AI starts just in front of you and is pretty fast. Like Daytona 10 laps. So... it's even in the game.

Sophy will as far as I know not be implemented into the game. It's not meant to participate in gt modes. But who knows, I'm sure yamauchi doesn't.
 
wakawakawaka
well then, these other games must be seriously lacking somewhere else. there's about a million things to do in GT before racing AI cars for fun.
I agree that lobbies are in a sorry state right now, but is sport also bad? haven't even tried it to be honest. Whatever the case is, I'm sure improvements are on the way.
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GT Sport did have plenty to do, but depends on if you liked everything it offered or not, since it's a departure from every other GT game. GT7 is straight up unfinished in every way from physics to online to the economy, bar the graphics and sound design. I'm not saying GT7 isn't a true next-gen title, but when you delve deeper, you find out that it's not quite there yet, and that pisses you off. Pissed everyone off since it was banking on that nostalgia, which everyone paid full price for, to support a new mainline GT title in a decade and ultimately they got a terrible "game" where the game economy is rigged so that you have to invest 4000 hours(they did the math) just to collect every car when MTX is just a click away, and half the good nostalgia is gone... GT7 is a complete disaster for what was sold as a "return to form", lol
 
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I feel that putting the player so far back actually creates bad driving habits because it compels you to act desperately to dive ahead all the time in order to catch up 1st place who could literally be miles ahead of you.

Rather than planning when to overtake and driving more normally.

This likely translates into bad habits being taken online too with the same dive bomb and move on approach from many drivers.
 
nickg07
This likely translates into bad habits being taken online too with the same dive bomb and move on approach from many drivers.
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I don't think players online would drive much more cleanly even if the solo mode was better in terms of racing, but it sure does not help.
 
Lomic
I am really doubtful
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Than you actually haven’t convinced yourself by watching my shared in Game Replays 😉all driven from Cockpit View Type 2 with HUD turned off completely without Assists, just ABS on weak and Sport Tires go ahead…watch it 🙂
Lomic
I don't have many footage available but this afternoon I got this one : tell me how he tries to avoid contact ?
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No offense, but please Don’t ask me questions to which I simply can not give you an adequate answer. Be your own Judge. If you would ask me for my opinion I’d say he pretty much TRIED to avoid Contact, but hey we still playing a Racing Game and slight Contacts CAN always happen. Nothing deliberate there from my point of View …I’d say 😏
 
Lomic
what was he doing all this time ? waiting for you to be 1st ? if he is that fast all the time, he should have taken the lead long before you get there, and be far away when you finally take 2nds spot
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The AI aren't very good at passing each other.
 
I was wondering this today. One mission I was doing today even had a grid start and the opponents starting before me and I waiting a whole minute before I was allowed to start "racing".
So much for realism.
 
CrimsonKing
OooAhh Cantona
There should be no surprise. PD have clearly communicated what the game is. The Real DRIVING Simulator. It’s not the real racing simulator.
This is what I've been saying but then you have the game calling these "races". It's like the developers have never seen what a real race looks like.
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PD can call it what they want but when the player is competing against other vehicles at high speed using racing lines and often on purpose built racetracks then we are racing. It's not like we are getting into a virtual car and driving at the speed limit, obeying traffic signals as we make our way to the supermarket to do the grocery shopping.
Among other things GT7 is most definitely a racing game.
 
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