What PD Has Been Doing For 5 Years.....

[GTracerRens]

Dont get mad, but I started to smile when reading your wishful and glorifying post how PD always surprise us with best product etc etc...

heh... have you ever heard about GT4, which many years ago was very waited too, and people were crawling to get that and it's promised Damage-feature, Online-feature, Cockpit-view and almost everything same what we are now waiting too.

It was not so great Game for many of us who likes racing and social-part of it, and after that release, I will never give to PD any respect of being trustful game developer.


Pessimist will never disappoint, so keep your foots down dear soulmates!

Indeed. I think most of us expect too much of GT5. I doubt there is a day and night cycle, I doubt weather changes on the circuit. Maybe there is a wet version of every track or something... They did disappoint me with Porsche. I thought to remember an interview where Kaz said that Porsche was almost confirmed or something. Now I'm only waiting for confirmations. And ye, they don't tell us enough. Nobody canb tell us how far the game is done yet, because there isn't any information or gameplay footage. I don't think PD is very nice to their fans. They visit Goodwood after they said that the game was almost ready. Was it just a documentary of the festival for GTTV? And now at Gamescom we see just a ery very small piece of the game that disappoints almost all of us. There are too many quenstions and to less info. I'm going to buy DiRT2 and let me surprise with GT5 instead of disappointments. All those carwishlists. It would be cool if all those cars are included, but they aren't. 1000 cars: Nissan skyline BNR, Nissan Skyline tuned, Nissan Skyline Motul, Nissan Skyline pacecar, Nissan SKyline V-spec...... 1000 cars

 

[Angerdx]

Hehe not mad at all, just that what people take as promises is almost always really just a we are working on it and hope we can do it from Kaz, those of us who got some idea of the constraints of the technology used also realise that some things can´t happen just yet as much as we want it too, that was the case for the ps2 as it was an extremly limited machine, really there was no way at the time to squezee those things out of it, and still for me there where things that made me go wow how the hell did they get that out of the ps2.

As for dissapointments, ofcourse there is always some in any game ever made, even for me who can seem a huge optimist but aslong as the positives outweight the negatives i´m all good.

 

[paskowitz]

I really do not care about damage, and all the other features. Its the 170 cockpit rumor that has me a little bit worried. Hopefully we are just reading the info wrong.

 

[BolgOfThe North]

I really do not care about damage, and all the other features. Its the 170 cockpit rumor that has me a little bit worried. Hopefully we are just reading the info wrong.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[GTP_HairyCurry]

To everyone talking about how Kaz won't answer questions and he tiptoes around and all that jazz, it's called building anticipation.

I disagree.
I think he knows that GT5 is not near the 100% finished article he wants. He will have to duck and weave all manner of questions and he probably feels very embarrased about things.
GT3 was delayed until it was as perfect as it could be, but that was in a different time when games were not the huge money bringer that they are now.
It is now 5 years since GT4 and 3 years since PS3 were released. People are understandably and justifiably getting fed up with waiting for GT5.
The bottom line is that PD have bitten off more than they can chew with trying to release a product that caters for all demands. Sony are desperate for a pick-up in PS3 sales and I reckon they have given an ultimatum to PD to get the game out, no matter how finished, or otherwise it actually is.

 

[Devedander]

I am also of the camp where I am dissapointed and I can't give the benefit of the doubt that this was an old demo and they will pack in a lot before release... I mean its supposed to come out "soon after gtm" right? Well factor in when you make any big changes you then have to do LOTS of testing. Then go gold, the press and distribute. There just isn't time to make a lot of big changes.

And old demo? No don't buy it. After this long and this much hype toss out a subpar demo with the whole world watching and not even mention it so as to excuse its shortcomings? No I don't buy it.

I think this is fairly recent and its very indicative of the final product in terms of game engine (I think more damage is certainly possible and likely though).

Aki I think that is indeed what we will see is a spit polished gt4 in terms of game engine with a few touchups and added modes/features.

Basically bigger prettier what you had before which is vey much what pd has done for the last 3 iterations.

I think pd is a one trick pony and that trick was awesome the first time around and with a little polish each time its redone, its heald up - but its age is finally showing. I think the core of gt is not going to change much and that it may well just be beyond pd to pull off what many of us want (and they know we want).

I also get the feeling pd may be having their hand forced and releasing too early. Like they did what they do first (what sells well and what they are good at) by making it pretty, but are now out of time (and out of their element) making it solid gameplay wise.

Whatever tweaks they have made just don't cover for things like:

Cycling weather: 24 hour lemans had this on the DC!

Intlligent AI: plenty of games have ai cars that are aware of the human driver and race appripriately. Not just the pileups but respecting when someone has a wheel up on you, and giving up the line into a turn to avoid a collision. I keep pointing to TOCA as I think they do this very well.

Collision physics: It looks better but still looks too bumper cars with the cars acting like they are made of adamantium and less like crushable metal.

Don't get me wrong, I still want to play (I love eye candy as much as the next guy) but I don't care how much yoou tweak the small stuff, glaring omissions like dumb blind ai ruin it for me.

 

[Earth]

I am also of the camp where I am dissapointed and I can't give the benefit of the doubt that this was an old demo and they will pack in a lot before release... I mean its supposed to come out "soon after gtm" right? Well factor in when you make any big changes you then have to do LOTS of testing. Then go gold, the press and distribute. There just isn't time to make a lot of big changes.

And old demo? No don't buy it. After this long and this much hype toss out a subpar demo with the whole world watching and not even mention it so as to excuse its shortcomings? No I don't buy it.

I think this is fairly recent and its very indicative of the final product in terms of game engine (I think more damage is certainly possible and likely though).

Aki I think that is indeed what we will see is a spit polished gt4 in terms of game engine with a few touchups and added modes/features.

Basically bigger prettier what you had before which is vey much what pd has done for the last 3 iterations.

I think pd is a one trick pony and that trick was awesome the first time around and with a little polish each time its redone, its heald up - but its age is finally showing. I think the core of gt is not going to change much and that it may well just be beyond pd to pull off what many of us want (and they know we want).

I also get the feeling pd may be having their hand forced and releasing too early. Like they did what they do first (what sells well and what they are good at) by making it pretty, but are now out of time (and out of their element) making it solid gameplay wise.

Whatever tweaks they have made just don't cover for things like:

Cycling weather: 24 hour lemans had this on the DC!

Intlligent AI: plenty of games have ai cars that are aware of the human driver and race appripriately. Not just the pileups but respecting when someone has a wheel up on you, and giving up the line into a turn to avoid a collision. I keep pointing to TOCA as I think they do this very well.

Collision physics: It looks better but still looks too bumper cars with the cars acting like they are made of adamantium and less like crushable metal.

Don't get me wrong, I still want to play (I love eye candy as much as the next guy) but I don't care how much yoou tweak the small stuff, glaring omissions like dumb blind ai ruin it for me.

Well, I hope you enjoy Forza 3

 

[Reckoner]

well said

 

[Reckoner]

My thoughts exactly.

same here, give all cars cockpit view, and forget about damage altogether, but I understand that most people disagree with this.

(sorry about double posting)

 

[Northstar]

-G25's FFB still not fully

Not sure if you realize it or not but the G25 isn't even officially compatible with the PS3. We are lucky that it works at all.

Also, how can you be disappointed when all we have seen is a couple demo's and a badly written list that mentioned that more info would be at TGS by the way.

Come back after TGS and decide if you are disappointed or not.

 

[Devedander]

Well, I hope you enjoy Forza 3

I don't get why fanboys must always resort to this... let's say Forza 3 totally blows... does that mean that suddenly GTs AI problems go away? No...

And it's not like both games couldn't be totally awesome... I would love nothing more than for GT5 to blow me away right after Forza 3 blows me away...

Or we could just stick our heads in the sand, ignore the potential for any dissapointments and the just say "Whatever, it's not that bad!" while we hand over our $60... hmmmm

The best part... in that whole post you quoted... I never mentioned Forza once...

same here, give all cars cockpit view, and forget about damage altogether, but I understand that most people disagree with this.

(sorry about double posting)

I would rather have that than half and half of anything... When someone says, it will come out when it's ready, and we are making sure we do it right, I kind of expect it to be done right across the board. Not a bit of this here and a bit of that there.

Come back after TGS and decide if you are disappointed or not.

Just wondering, if TGS is dissapointing too, will you be saying "Well wait until you play the final release and see if you are dissapointed or not"?

 

[Northstar]

Than you can be disappointed since that is when we expect to know about what GT5 will really be like.

Although I think you should always wait for the full release version to judge a game.

Also, please no triple posting.

 

[Earth]

I don't get why fanboys must always resort to this... let's say Forza 3 totally blows... does that mean that suddenly GTs AI problems go away? No...

And it's not like both games couldn't be totally awesome... I would love nothing more than for GT5 to blow me away right after Forza 3 blows me away...

Or we could just stick our heads in the sand, ignore the potential for any dissapointments and the just say "Whatever, it's not that bad!" while we hand over our $60... hmmmm

The best part... in that whole post you quoted... I never mentioned Forza once...

Sorry, but your post sounded like it came straight out of Dan Greenwald's mouth. Talking about how GT1 was great but the series has been stale ever since.

The collision physics have improved. Maybe not up to your lofty standards, but again PD is making progress with the game, unlike what your post implies.

The AI in GT5P improved over the AI in GT4 by leaps and bounds, and judging by a 2 minute demo it appears they are even more human now, locking up bakes being one example. Sure there is still problems, but again, they are improving.

Also, many racing games have AI problems. GTR2's AI was a crash fest, rFactor's AI is far too timid, and NASCAR 2003's AI is as cold as ice.

But in the end, while you complain about the ever improving AI and crash/damage physics I'm going to look forward to the 1,000 cars, youtube replay output, head tracking, online modes, museum modes and whatever else surprises PD has coming our way.

 

[Devedander]

Than you can be disappointed since that is when we expect to know about what GT5 will really be like.

Although I think you should always wait for the full release version to judge a game.

Also, please no triple posting.

Sorry for the triple post, literally more posts popped up while I was replying.

Sorry, but your post sounded like it came straight out of Dan Greenwald's mouth. Talking about how GT1 was great but the series has been stale ever since.

The collision physics have improved. Maybe not up to your lofty standards, but again PD is making progress with the game, unlike what your post implies.

I don't have very lofty standards... I was happy with Toca 2 and Grid collisions. I am not asking for perfection, I am asking for passable. I guess actually GT5 is looking passable but just barely. I mean when that red car plows into the pileup it reminds me more of marbles hitting each other than cars.

I think it's been stale since GT3... GT1 and GT2 not so much because at the time they were setting the curve... but since GT3, especially in retrospect, it does feel like PD are just dressing up the same dog and pony show in more and more complicated costumes.

The AI in GT5P improved over the AI in GT4 by leaps and bounds, and judging by a 2 minute demo it appears they are even more human now, locking up bakes being one example. Sure there is still problems, but again, they are improving.

I am sorry but that's like saying the Hindenberg has nicer leather seats now, but it's still full of hydrogen. Don't get me wrong, I will take any improvement I can get, but I won't stop being dissapointed as long as the big stuff isn't addressed.

AI cars not locking up? Ok not realistic but pretty minor.

AI cars plowing down a straight, directly at a 3 car pileup and not changing corse at all? WTF?

AI cars forcing themselves to drive the line even when it will absolutely cost everyone involved and infact themselves more than if they just backed off and gave up the line? WTF?

All I am saying is get the basics and the big things right, then start adding the details. I want to drive like I am racing against racers, not drive like it's an autox course with car shaped moving obstacles on set paths.

Also, many racing games have AI problems. GTR2's AI was a crash fest, rFactor's AI is far too timid, and NASCAR 2003's AI is as cold as ice.

Great... I wasn't interseted in those games but had I beent I would probably have been just as dissapointed with those flaws. As much as other games had big flaws, yet other games have overcome the exact flaws we are seeing in GT5... actually the ones we have been seeing in GT4 and GT3 and GT2 and GT1...

GT1 and GT2... totally excuseable, they were miles ahead of anything at the time. But now? Now it's not even par for the course... PD is actually falling behind the competition in some key areas.
I mean if NO one had figured out how to program decent AI yet, that would be foregiveable... it has been done, it was done a long time ago by a smaller company on a smaller budget in less time... it's just not excuseable here.

But in the end, while you complain about the ever improving AI and crash/damage physics I'm going to look forward to the 1,000 cars, youtube replay output, head tracking, online modes, museum modes and whatever else surprises PD has coming our way.

Hey I always said PD is great at making the pretty pokimon of car games. If all you want is more and prettier, well then you got it!

But for me, I don't want more, I want better. I would LOVE more AND better, but get the better before you start giving more.

Remember ultimate racing simulator... not ultimate pretty car collection game. Get the racing right then put the icing on the cake. I don't want just a big bucket of icing.

 

[Earth]

Sorry for the triple post, literally more posts popped up while I was replying.

I don't have very lofty standards... I was happy with Toca 2 and Grid collisions. I am not asking for perfection, I am asking for passable. I guess actually GT5 is looking passable but just barely. I mean when that red car plows into the pileup it reminds me more of marbles hitting each other than cars.

I think it's been stale since GT3... GT1 and GT2 not so much because at the time they were setting the curve... but since GT3, especially in retrospect, it does feel like PD are just dressing up the same dog and pony show in more and more complicated costumes.

I am sorry but that's like saying the Hindenberg has nicer leather seats now, but it's still full of hydrogen. Don't get me wrong, I will take any improvement I can get, but I won't stop being dissapointed as long as the big stuff isn't addressed.

AI cars not locking up? Ok not realistic but pretty minor.

AI cars plowing down a straight, directly at a 3 car pileup and not changing corse at all? WTF?

AI cars forcing themselves to drive the line even when it will absolutely cost everyone involved and infact themselves more than if they just backed off and gave up the line? WTF?

All I am saying is get the basics and the big things right, then start adding the details. I want to drive like I am racing against racers, not drive like it's an autox course with car shaped moving obstacles on set paths.

Great... I wasn't interseted in those games but had I beent I would probably have been just as dissapointed with those flaws. As much as other games had big flaws, yet other games have overcome the exact flaws we are seeing in GT5... actually the ones we have been seeing in GT4 and GT3 and GT2 and GT1...

GT1 and GT2... totally excuseable, they were miles ahead of anything at the time. But now? Now it's not even par for the course... PD is actually falling behind the competition in some key areas.
I mean if NO one had figured out how to program decent AI yet, that would be foregiveable... it has been done, it was done a long time ago by a smaller company on a smaller budget in less time... it's just not excuseable here.

Hey I always said PD is great at making the pretty pokimon of car games. If all you want is more and prettier, well then you got it!

But for me, I don't want more, I want better. I would LOVE more AND better, but get the better before you start giving more.

Remember ultimate racing simulator... not ultimate pretty car collection game. Get the racing right then put the icing on the cake. I don't want just a big bucket of icing.

Hehehe, your post sounds just like your typical Forza fan, but I'm sure mine sounds like a GT fan.

Well, it seems your priorities are far different then mine. AI has and never will be a challenge to me in racing simulators, I get very little enjoyment in racing mindless bots, (though I enjoy watching them race each other) my enjoyment comes from racing real people online. No matter how good they get at modeling AI it will never match a real person. Trying to outbreak AI going into a corner = snooze. Trying to outbreak a human going into a corner = exciting.

Same thing with ultra real collision physics or damage. It doesn't make a sim racing game to me, but it appears to be everything to some people.

For GT5 I expected a basic damage model on just the racecars, (based on how PD said they designed the cars) and slightly improved A.I. over GT5P (basic progression).

Some people expected an industry changing damage model on PD's first go with damage, and an A.I. leaps and bounds better then GT5P's, which was of course all unreastic expectations.

While GT5 may look stale and unimproved to you, I'm looking forward to it greatly. Nothing has fell below my expectations or dissappointed me except for the thought there may just be 20 tracks.

 

[Devedander]

Hehehe, your post sounds just like your typical Forza fan, but I'm sure mine sounds like a GT fan.

Well, it seems your priorities are far different then mine. AI has and never will be a challenge to me in racing simulators, I get very little enjoyment in racing mindless bots, (though I enjoy watching them race each other) my enjoyment comes from racing real people online. No matter how good they get at modeling AI it will never match a real person. Trying to outbreak AI going into a corner = snooze. Trying to outbreak a human going into a corner = exciting.

Same thing with ultra real collision physics or damage. It doesn't make a sim racing game to me, but it appears to be everything to some people.

For GT5 I expected a basic damage model on just the racecars, (based on how PD said they designed the cars) and slightly improved A.I. over GT5P (basic progression).

Some people expected an industry changing damage model on PD's first go with damage, and an A.I. leaps and bounds better then GT5P's, which was of course all unreastic expectations.

While GT5 may look stale and unimproved to you, I'm looking forward to it greatly. Nothing has fell below my expectations or dissappointed me except for the thought there may just be 20 tracks.

I think its funny how you say I must the the ultimate forza fan... where did I mention anything about forza? The whole post was about GT, what it has done and what I think it shoud have accomplished... I didn't compare it to forza at all...

No offense but when you start reading a favoritism towards forza into anything negative about gt then you might want to reconsider your obejctiveness...

You will notice that I usually try to talk only about what GT is doing, and try not to compare too much to other games (especially forza since it tends to rile up the fanboys even more beyond reason). And when i do compare to other games, often its a lot of games, not just forza is god (in fact you will see that I consistenly say that Toca does the AI racing feeling best for me).

Actually I had some pretty frustrating times with Forza also, and noteably with the AI, however I had to respect that they tried and did a decent job even if not perfect.

GTs AI has been a long standing issue, one which was excuseable early on but with each generation becomes less and less excuseable.

Now as for your specific situation, I am not sure why you feel it somehow invalidates the problems with the game somehow?

I mean the single player is a huge part of the game even if you plan to avoid it as much as possible. And for a lot of people it is a very important part of the game.

I personally love getting friends together to play, but a huge part of the game is being able to pop it in and get in a fun race when you dont have time to coordinate a human race.

As for what I expect? I expect what PD leads me to expect, with comments about how long its taking being related to getting it right, with all the talk of it being worth the wait and the direct comments from PD et all basically saying how this will be the biggest, baddest and greatest.

My expectatinos are also set by what I see is possible and what the competition is doing... I mean if no one else had figured out how to create a good AI, ok its just still int he works, but good AI has been around for a while. And regardless what we have seen so far doesnt even look like mediocre AI, it looks like blind drive on rails AI.

It seems to me that your eagerness to jump on me for being a forza fanboy (BTW I have barely been playing attention to Forza 3... my xbox is packed up and hasnt been played in months let alone any forza playing yet I am actively considering buying a PS3 just to play GT5) is a somewhat freudian reflection of your own fanboyism... something which shows in your eagerness to excuse obvious flaws as being not important becuase of your own particular (and I must say probably not very common) situation. I mean it sounds like you take everything that is wrong with GT and then find a situation in which it is not relevant, then say thats all you want out of it.

It would be like me saying 'who cares madden has no running game, all I want to do is pass the ball anyway, no big deal"'. Well great for you, but the problem still definitely exists.

I am glad GT hasnt let you down and your desires were limited to what works in GT but again, it doesnt excuse what isnt there or isnt done right, and I am talking about the kind of things that were directly or indirectly promised in big ways.

 

[Earth]

... I am talking about the kind of things that were directly or indirectly promised in big ways.

This is the whole problem right here

Unfounded high extremely high expectations that weren't met. This is the result of 5 years of day dreaming about every single feature a racing game should have and how perfectly it could be implemented.

The dreamy vision of a Lamborghini getting spun out at Eau Rouge in a rain storm at night by an Enzo only for it to flip over and over throwing debris hundreds of yards across the track until it cleared the guard rails and hit a tree only to land upside down and burst into flames and an animated ambulance drove up to it while two pace cars slowed the field down while rescue crews cleaned up the mess and a tow truck picked the Lambo up and set it on a wrecker while the field darted for pitlane every crew at 10 animated members add fuel, change tires and you got to play a pit minigame while y our crew executed your stop 2 minutes later the race is under green again your blind as the spray blindes your view the ultra realistic AI darts around behind you looking for a way by and over brakes the corner sliding past you into the mud after a failed pass attempt the next AI ahead of you sees you coming fast and pulls over the next AI ahead tries to block you despearately but fails the next AI ahead you barely tap but he loses it big time and wrecks big collecting you in the progress.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Devedander has a point though on the promises PD said, but didn't fulfill. Besides why are you guys jumping on the guy? What he says ain't gonna effect the game development.

 

[Earth]

Devedander has a point though on the promises PD said, but didn't fulfill. Besides why are you guys jumping on the guy? What he says ain't gonna effect the game development.

What promises?

Not jumping on him, I just find it strange that so many people are "disappointed" in GT5 after watching grainy poor quality video of a 2 minute demo.

 

[Earth]

Devedander has a point though on the promises PD said, but didn't fulfill. Besides why are you guys jumping on the guy? What he says ain't gonna effect the game development.

What promises?

Not jumping on him, I just find it strange that so many people are "disappointed" in GT5 after watching grainy poor quality video of a 2 minute demo.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Oh there are a lot of things that Kaz said that'll be in GT over that it's history. May not be promises, but they were close to being as such.

And you gotta understand that five years is a really long time to develop a game. I got annoyed too by the people voicing their disappointments, but they've got legit reasons to do so, and the five year time is the biggest reasong among them.

Besides Devedander perhaps mostly plays simulation games that requires a PC's power, so he knows what GT has to compete with.

 

[Devedander]

Earth I don't have the time to go searching back through everything KY or PD has said over the years, but yes, they basically promised us the absolute **** when this game came out and really the only MAJOR improvement seen to date is in number of cars and of course graphics.

That's compounded by the fact that there are areas that BADLY need improvement that appear to have been ignored.

Sorry earth, you are just wrong this time... things were promised (sometimes indirectly but not in any uncertain way) and many of those things have only been partially or almost not done at all.

I mean when you say you will have damage modeling, I expect damage modeling. When that damage appears on only a small section of cars I am dissapointed. Did anyone every specifcially say "Full damage modeling on every car on every course"? No, probably not, but the inference that without a disclaimer it will be all cars all tracks is to be expected.

Consider also that I don't recall any other game to date that has damage limited to certain cars only... I mean if no one ever had damage, maybe it could be looked at as assuming too much, but if everyone to date has had either damage or no damage across the board, you need a disclaimer or you know what you are setting people up to expect.

And when you claim improved AI, it's kind of assumed you have improved the areas that need it most glaringly, not touched up the already acceptable areas only.

For clarification here is a short list of games I found a lot of fun and which met or exceeded my expectations:

RBR
Toca 2 - 3
Forza 1-2
NFS underground
Grid
Rallisport 1-2
GTR

Basically you can see I can enjoy a wide range of games based on their merits. I am not fanboy hater, I just call it like I see it. And the way I see it now is: GT5 is shaping up to offer incredible graphics and an even larger list of cars than previus GT games, but with many of the flaws and limitations of said GT games... considering the development time, the promises and what the competition is pulling off in short order, I think these are legitimate reasons to worry and voice concern.

 

[Earth]

sumbrownkid, Devedander, Gran Turismo has sold tens of millions of copies with no damage and poor AI.

What does that say? There's more to Gran Turismo then AI and damage.

For clarification here is a short list of games I found a lot of fun and which met or exceeded my expectations:

RBR
Toca 2 - 3
Forza 1-2
NFS underground
Grid
Rallisport 1-2
GTR

Wow, not a single Gran Turismo game?

Here is something you cannot deny. Ever since GT5P the AI in GT has been improving. While you make such a huge deal about how they run into wrecked cars (like the AI in so many other racing games) you fail to mention how they make mistakes now and can go around a corner with you side by side

The damage model. You don't know if this was an early build, if it was limited because it was a public demo, or anything. Nobody knows. It's like when we first saw GT5P for the first time there was only 6 cars on track. People went crazy then a couple of weeks later screenshots of 16 cars on track were everywhere and people went crazy

The point is everyone is jumping to conclusions over a 2 minute demo

If PD was so proud of this demo why is there not more publicity about it? Why no trailer at the Sony gamescon press conference? Why no high quality direct feed video of it from Sony or PD? Why did PD pull down all the info on their website?

That's right, they're saving all their big guns for TGS. They sent a couple of Gran turismo 5 prologue seats with a primitive demo of GT5 to gamescon.

Devedander, the more I listen to what you have to say the more you sound like someone who never really truly liked the Gran Turismo series. You don't have any of the games on your list of games that live up to your standards (some questionable games on that list). You've only criticized the game in every post I've seen of yours. You simply don't like GT and the way PD does things

 

[RACECAR]

What I will never understand is why there's always a Competition or some comparison to other racing titles when it comes to this game(and Vice Versa). I will most likely be laughed at for not thinking like everyone else, but I feel that there is no competition between GT and many established PC sims or console games(or with any games period), all I see is a "My **** is bigger then yours" contest going on With all the "this game has fallen behind and everyone is pulling ahead" comments. My opinion simply is this: It does not have to be like another game or have to be "to end all" perfect to me, all I ask for is a great game that'll keep me coming back. So far despite what little I've seen, I'm already convinced I may be on this game much longer then I have with the previous titles.

 

[Devedander]

Actually you are entirely wrong on the GT thing... they are left out simply because when writing up that short list I was thinking specifically non GT so it was just a slip they didn't make it on.

I liked GT2 but at the time I was more of an arcade racer so got frustrated and gave up. I got into GT3 late but really liked it, then bought a PS2 and a DFP (again a little late in the game but still) for GT4 (and MGS).

In case you didn't notice I already said I am considering buying a PS3 just to play GT5...

So no I don't hate on PD for no reason, but I am becoming more and more irritated by the lack of focus on the meat of racing and the constant focus on pretty and more. As I said, a few iterations ago it was excuseable. Even along side games that already featured damage it seemed ok. But GT4 was really the last time I could bring myself to excuse the big AI issues. Too many other games had evolved past that to let it go.

As for always saying something bad about GT, no I have said it looks great, it will look great and it will have an incredible number of things. Those are all (likely) true and positive. However I have said the bad things too... I don't know why the bad things stick out to you so much more than the good other than the fact you feel attacked by them or something so they are more memorable.

As for the 2 minute demo, it could be any number of things, but those all sound like rationlizations. Basically all eyes are on PD and GT, this is a huge show and PD knows what they show here is going to resound around the gaming community. I can't believe they put up a dated demo without a disclaiming more of it under those circumstances. It just doesn't sit right.

I have seen too many game releases with near release demos with big issues that "will be fixed by release date" but what I have seen is more often than not, playable demos often represent a very near finished product. Generally a demo won't be released until the company feels it reasonably represents the final product for exactly the reason they know that judgements will be passed regardless of how many disclaimers come attached.

Remember you don't get a second chance to make a first impression.

I hope I am wrong, I really do, that slim PS3 is looking so nice... but honestly, I think we will either see GT5 pushed back MUCH farther than we want, or we will see it released with pretty much what we see here and a bit more polish.

Maybe they are saving their big guns for TGS but honestly, I would think if they were going to do that they would have had less (ie nothing) about GT5 here and just put it off for one big show. We all know that PD is perfectly happy to release stunning screenshots and CGI until they are good and ready to show their hands.

Sure we may be jumping to conclusions, but when the release of the game is promised to be "soon after GTM" which is already on the horizon I don't think it's at all far fetched to believe what we are being shown is near final.

I realize that there were six car shots of GTP and then sixteen car shots, and the same could happen here, but I just find it hard to extend that much benefit of the doubt. Something seems wrong about this release (timing and alongside GTM) and my gut tells me it's going to result in less than what most of us expected being the final product.

 

[Devedander]

What I will never understand is why there's always a Competition or some comparison to other racing titles when it comes to this game(and Vice Versa). I will most likely be laughed at for not thinking like everyone else, but I feel that there is no competition between GT and many established PC sims or console games(or with any games period), all I see is a "My **** is bigger then yours" contest going on With all the "this game has fallen behind and everyone is pulling ahead" comments. My opinion simply is this: It does not have to be like another game or have to be "to end all" perfect to me, all I ask for is a great game that'll keep me coming back. So far despite what little I've seen, I'm already convinced I may be on this game much longer then I have with the previous titles.

I don't compare becauase I think it should be like the other game. I had no problem with GT having photo mode but forza 1 not having it...

The only reason I compare to other games is that there are certain fundamentals that a game should have (for instance when it's touted as the ultimate racing simulator then it should have the fundamentals of racing down solidly) and when those fundamentals are missing or weak the only acceptable excuse to me is that it just can't be done yet. If others can do it, and do it in a reasonably similar environment, then it becomes legitimate to make that point.

For instance how about a force feedback clutch? That's pretty integral to shifting with a clutch properly isn't it? But GT5 won't have it... but that's excuseable... why? It's just not doable right now, no one else has one and I do'nt think anyone can. So we let that go.

But decent AI? Is that doable? Yes... where's the proof? Here are other games pushing similar quality graphics, control and game engines that do have decent AI. So that excuse goes right out the window.

I also want a great game that will keep me coming back.. but the problem is what will keep me coming back evolves. Years ago just having a lot of cars was enough. Now the bar has been raised, good physics and collisions as well as AI are pretty much a must. I get the feeling PD is not upping their game to reach that bar anymore and the legitimate way to show that is to point out the competition that IS clearing that bar.

 

[energyracing]

I dont know where this came from, this thread was near death a couple days ago now theres a fight going on my heartfelt thread <---(laughs to self). As for the "AI Problems" in GT5, from just the GC demo vids that are out there, I have seen a RIDICULOUS (as in good) improvement in the AI just from Prologue, let alone any previous game, all I have to refer you to is the videos posted somewhere in the forums recently (can't remember where) but there were maybe 4 or 6 links to youtube vids in one post in the thread and on the 2nd link, you can clearly see AIs locking up tires going into the turns (which was impressive the first time I saw it, but then watching them doing it every time made it seem kinda off) but what REALLY impressed me was when two AI running side by side absolutely blew the demo drivers doors off going into the S curve while he was still on the racing line. They didn't skip a beat and just dusted him, and continued on. I've never seen that kind of AI in ANY racing game EVER made. At best, one of them closer to the human's line would slow up and the other would fly by, then he would attempt to pass. Again, that is the best case scenario I *may* have seen somewhere. But this just takes the cake. And again, cherry topper, ITS NOT FINAL. THE END


EDIT: Here it is, watch at 3:10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB1IQagkKps

 

[Devedander]

I dont know where this came from, this thread was near death a couple days ago now theres a fight going on my heartfelt thread <---(laughs to self). As for the "AI Problems" in GT5, from just the GC demo vids that are out there, I have seen a RIDICULOUS (as in good) improvement in the AI just from Prologue, let alone any previous game, all I have to refer you to is the videos posted somewhere in the forums recently (can't remember where) but there were maybe 4 or 6 links to youtube vids in one post in the thread and on the 2nd link, you can clearly see AIs locking up tires going into the turns (which was impressive the first time I saw it, but then watching them doing it every time made it seem kinda off) but what REALLY impressed me was when two AI running side by side absolutely blew the demo drivers doors off going into the S curve while he was still on the racing line. They didn't skip a beat and just dusted him, and continued on. I've never seen that kind of AI in ANY racing game EVER made. At best, one of them closer to the human's line would slow up and the other would fly by, then he would attempt to pass. Again, that is the best case scenario I *may* have seen somewhere. But this just takes the cake. And again, cherry topper, ITS NOT FINAL. THE END


EDIT: Here it is, watch at 3:10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB1IQagkKps

While that certainly looked good it didn't blow me away... it looked to me like the human driver was pretty poor and not up to speed and the AI were just doing their thing, happened to bring them close to him where they were going. Basically while it might be an improvement for the GT series, when watching it I don't get the feeling it's AI that's doing something I haven't seen in other games to date already. In short, nothing wrong with it, but nothing good. At best it's bringing GT up to par with where it should be anywya.

I would venture had the human driver been half a car left there it would have resulted in a massive rear ending.

Anyhow, I hope the good stuff is in there as well, but watch this video around 4 min http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQPM2g-UsCM&eurl=http://www.gtplanet.net/&feature=player_embedded
and you will see what I am talking about blind stupid AI.

If the AI make good solid overtakes, that's a plus, but it won't excuse the time they make blind stupid mistakes...

 

[Tired Tyres]

If you have played GT5P then you would know that the AI has improved. It actually tries to avoid you. Naturally it can't do this all the time but most of the time when it hits you it's because you have done something wrong.

 

[Preacher85]

Devedander has made some good points, I agree with some of them.

I don't really want to be involved in this but all I can say is I sincerely hope PD is holding out for a big show off at TGS, I pray that what they showed us at GameCon was a 'dated demo' as some people have suggested because I and I'm guessing a good few others where wanting to see more from PD all things considered. 5 years is a long time to come out with what people perceived as 'half-assed' damage (remember we have absolutely no idea what terms or conditions the manufacturors have put onto PD to display damage on their cars), personally any damage for me is a bonus. The secrecy of PD does'nt help speculation at all and as much as the AI might piss me off, I'll suck it up and carry on with the career until I have all the cars I want with a ton of money, not perfect AI certainly won't stop me from playing the game.

Regardless of the actual state of GT5 at TGS (ie: the GameCon state or the 'hopeful/wishful state that we all want') I will be getting the game because I just simply love it and have loved the series, even with the current flaws of the series. No game is perfect but for me if it looks good, plays good and has online I'm happy.

I don't think people should try to rationalise the demo either, I'm taking it as it comes, if it gets better its a bonus if it does'nt then its what I was expecting and won't be let down.

I am hoping for more, but expecting nothing.