What Would Make the Next GT Too Easy?

[Gabkicks]

if this site were japanese and run by a japanese owner i think we'd be a bit less worried about if GT5 would have what we want. I mean, look how we got the small manual while japan got the big one. I highly doubt Yamauchi has been on gtplanet. he is just essentric like that.

 

[Dave A]

Nice idea. But how about you get (a modest amount of) cash and cars for winning. But you can only win the cars once, if you repeat a race you have won previously you only get cash, but not as much as you won the first time.
Say you get 50% of the money you won the frst time, any time you complete them their after. 👍

i.e. Frist time win = car + 5000cr
Second time win = 2500cr
Third time win = 2500cr
etc etc

Obviously as races get harder you get more money. This way it isnt that easy to cheat the sytem and repeat races over and over and make lots of money by selling the cars.

Hmm, the idea is really to prevent you from earning loads of cash quickly, not prevent you from winning cars more than once. If you have to win a series once and then you never win a car from thast again it kind of defeats the purpose of trying that series again.

I like this idea a lot. However, I would like to add that when you win a prize car, it is automatically unlocked in the dealership.

If you take your idea and Shadows idea, but instead of winning the series allowing you to unlock the car for sale for good, you say each time you win that series, this car is unlocked to buy, but just once, so if you want to get that car again you still have an incentive to re-run that series so another one becomes available to buy.

 

[Classic Anycar]

FROM FORZA

Suggested line, that tells you when to accelerate and when to brake, replaces license tests

FROM SEGA

Name your own price when selling cars
Win the race, win a car

 

[Gabkicks]

if gt5 is online, there will be no need for the suggested race line .

 

[FooAtari]

If you take your idea and Shadows idea, but instead of winning the series allowing you to unlock the car for sale for good, you say each time you win that series, this car is unlocked to buy, but just once, so if you want to get that car again you still have an incentive to re-run that series so another one becomes available to buy.

Hmmm, further refinement! I quite like that suggestion. So you get the car when you win, but if you sell it you have to run the races again and win to unlock the car to buy, but you can only buy it once? If you want to get it again , you have to run the races again.

Yeah I like that one. 👍

 

[McLaren'sAngel]

Hiya! Meow! (='.'=)

did we all reached an agreement? I want to somehow get PD's attention to do GTP's idea! Maybe we can get either GTP's name or our GTP names on the credit of GT5!

 

[Dave A]

Unfortunately neither Sony nor any of it's owned companies will accept any ideas from anyone outside their organisation so if you sent the idea to Sony they would refuse it. This is simply to avoid potential legal issues in the future, if they turn down all advice then no-one can say thats my idea I want to be paid for it later on. They may see this info and then use it, but if it was sent to them as an idea from us they'd say thanks but no. If it's not an idea sent by us they can just say they looked at feedback and came to that conclusion and no legallities would occur because no-one sent them the idea.

 

[JohnBM01]

Well, this is why I say that we can only speculate, and that we are part of many different underground clubs of Gran Turismo. We're just part of the GT Underground. We can only speculate, but I'm just wondering what it would take so that the challenge is enough so that fewer people say "GT_ is too easy." I'm a people person, so I kind of want to know how do you address and answer an issue like this. You know, I'm a person among other people, so I really wanted to investigate this deal as best as I can.

In terms of challenges, is there something PD hasn't really attempted or thought about to add challenge to the game without complication? My thing is, I'm a bit rusty, and I am thinking about how the next GT can be challenging enough, but not too much. Again, it's all about finding the middle ground. You all are the pilots, how do we steer this boat in the right direction?

 

[McLaren'sAngel]

Unfortunately neither Sony nor any of it's owned companies will accept any ideas from anyone outside their organisation so if you sent the idea to Sony they would refuse it. This is simply to avoid potential legal issues in the future, if they turn down all advice then no-one can say thats my idea I want to be paid for it later on. They may see this info and then use it, but if it was sent to them as an idea from us they'd say thanks but no. If it's not an idea sent by us they can just say they looked at feedback and came to that conclusion and no legallities would occur because no-one sent them the idea.

Hiya! Meow! (='.'=)

Guess we can just only dream about how the next GT5's gameplay system would work.

I still think the difficulty system will stay the same then, but possibly with improved AI if they really try.

 

[Dave A]

I suppose the only way to do it would be to get somone at PD to see this forum, if they notice our ideas while browsing the forums they may very well use them, they can do that. But if we approached them and gave them the idea's ourselves they'd turn them down.

 

[zPhoenix]

If it is any consolation, GT Planet is one of the few -->Moderated<-- GT sites.

That means that most posts (like this one) are quite serious and helpful in nature (you should see the bull you get in forums like GameFAQs - flame wars and even intentional lies to beginners - the most popular recommendation to solve a problem at the GameFAQs GT4 forum seems to be "suck less" - ).

We can only hope that the people at PD recognize our superior discussions and "quietly" read our posts. I read somewhere that they cannot officially acknowledge reading anything from anybody and that they automatically reject all suggestions, to protect themselves from lawsuits.

I think the only way to get them to read our stuff might be to (a) Create a super-moderated sub-forum for "recommendations for future GTs". (b) Only allow moderators to post to that forum. (c) Have very strict rules about how to submit proposals like this one to the moderators. (d) Have someone at GT Planet who meets with someone at PD (maybe after an interview) casually "comment" about the subforum and give them the URL. (e) Hope that the person at PD will join the forum anonymously and read the recommendations, and be able to officially claim that "they never read it". (f) There should be some very explicit legal language in the subforum that grants PD the right to use any ideas in their GT series without any liability.

 

[Dave A]

A legal page wouldn't make them accept the idea because they'd have to pay a solcicitor to read theough it thouroughly which costs a lot of money. The only way they'll use an idea posted on here is if they either have that same idea themselves, or if they read it on here and just implement it. If you point them to it, or send them a link to it, they will avoid it.

 

[zPhoenix]

Yes, that is why I suggest we post in a place where ideas are already filtered and cleaned up, so that they don't waste much time reading.

Then we make them aware of it in a way that is easily denied. We are not looking for credit, we are looking for game improvements. The whole concept is to give them a way to accept our ideas without any liability or risk for them.

 

[Dave A]

A forum with just moderators posts will do nothing, I'm very sure there are people from Sony who monitor different GT forums including this one. If they're looking, they'll find the ideas here. Maybe a thread with less banter would be good for us, but it won't make much difference to Sony. What I think Sony should do is a large scale customer questionaire with each form nwith a disclaimer saying any ideas given on the form become the property of SCE. They could do this online, and just have questions about GT, what you'd like to see in it, what the best/worst part is for you ect.

 

[KurtisGSXR]

The HP limits mentioned earlier could be used with some success if changed to a bhp/tonne limit. This way your monster powered 2 tonne Vantage could tackle your tuned but ultimately comparatively gutless Elise.

This would allow better difficulty levels for things like the FR cup where car choice is wide and varied, the only problem is in events like the DTM cup where you can't easily tune down your car. It's these races where the cars are near identical where the AI is crying out for improvement. Not merely in raw pace either, but in their race craft (pit timing, don't get me started), passing and risk taking and collision avoidance.

I'm not sure the physics engine could be changed significantly. When your brain is trying to figure out what's happening with just your sense of sight, looking at the screen, it's hard to compare this to a real racer, where, sight, sounds, feel, movement, vibrations, and forces on the car all help you to determine how to control a slide, or feather the throttle. GT does very well with the limitations of your CRT box in the corner with the game boxes on it. Also for that matter the limitations of the DS2, which I would imagine 90% of the world or more plays their GT on.

Some people may be looking for the wrong things when looking at future GT's. I play this game as a toy, just for fun. For an hour or so of an evening to chill out after work. So is it more important to make GT fun with huge bodykits and exhausts and such which are being championed by many posts I've seen. But given the context of GT I still believe that the fun should be derived from the realism, and the satisfaction of having to wring every last drop of performance from your S2000 to catch that 350Z, then knowing that it was you that made the difference. You took an inferior machine and made it better just by being the one higher quality component in it.

It transfers to life, I take my bike to trackdays. I'm nothing special, intermediate group, moderate pace on a road bike and road tyres. Quite respectable I think. Although there is no official racing on thse days, people pass each other, and when you finally track down that 998R you've been gaining on for 3 laps and power around the outside of him on the exit of an off camber bumpy downhill left... For those few moments you feel like you are the greatest...

until the 12 year old on the 125 with slicks nails you into the next corner. Dang.

That's how I want GT to feel.

I write a lot when I get going don't I?


Kurtis.

 

[Dave A]

I agree on the point of AI, however, on the topic of physics, they can be improved on for the better. Think LFS, GTR, GPL, they all have more realistic physics and are all hugely enjoyable.

 

[GTguy40990]

Don't sort them by horsepower. Sort by WEIGHT TO POWER RATIO. Then you don't have to worry about a 1500 pound 300 hp car beating the snot out of a 3500 pound 300 hp car.

 

[FooAtari]

Don't sort them by horsepower. Sort by WEIGHT TO POWER RATIO. Then you don't have to worry about a 1500 pound 300 hp car beating the snot out of a 3500 pound 300 hp car.

Nice Idea 👍

If done properly that could really work...

 

[Dave A]

What you need is a maximum/minimum weight depending on the series, and the maximum power output. You could do with more extensive weight modifications too, it is possible to get a V8 Vantage down to little over a ton. Then you could have competitions for luxury cars, say anything over 1800kg's and set different classes by power. You could have restrictions on parts you can use, like some competitions don't allow any race spec parts and so on. Then you could have the reverse, cars between 650 and 850kg's in weight and then classes set by power so you'd have the VX220's and Elises and co battling it out ithoes races, and maybe if the right cars are included a superlight series with cars under 650kg's and again a few classes set by power, you'd have some really nippy cars in here like Caterhams, Westfields and radicals ect. By combining multiple restrictions you create close classes, some can remain fairly open for people who want to race their F1 car against a mondeo, but branch series out a bit too, like dont just have one 5 race event for FF cars, have 3 or 4 5 race events for them, with each event offering a different level of car performance wise so you'd have the FF150 series, 5 races with a 150Bhp maximum power, great for racing your first car, then the FF250, same as but a 250Bhp maximum power, then FF400 and then a FF+ or something to signify an unlimited class.

 

[JohnBM01]

By adding restriction after restriction, would it take away from open-ended fun, or would it make the game tougher to enjoy? My only concern about it all is, how do you keep a game fun while not overburdening the novice or lightly experienced racing gamer? I try to look at the big picture, not to mention thinking about how to make a game too tough that people will hate a game such as a Gran Turismo.

 

[Gabkicks]

leave some races open, but have most of the races with decent restrictions. or at least with restrictions that would require you being cleaver to obtain a big advantage hardware wise.

 

[KurtisGSXR]

I agree on the point of AI, however, on the topic of physics, they can be improved on for the better. Think LFS, GTR, GPL, they all have more realistic physics and are all hugely enjoyable.

This is a hard topic to tackle for most of us due to the difficulty in comparison. I've played Forza, Toca, some F1 games and a few others with a more realism based driving system rather than a ridge racer or EA type style. I can't say with any honesty which is the most realistic as I have no way of of comparing. I can wrestle an LMP round the 'ring in about 5:20 for as many laps as you like, but in real life... I'd be dead in less than 2. I imagine there are amongst the many members of GTP people who race. There must be considering it's a forum about racing games. They're in a better position to know than me, but even for them it must be tricky to compare a car's reactions to inputs made with a real set of pedals and wheel to either a DS2 or a PS2 wheel.

I'm not even close in life to what I can do in the game. I imagine I'd even smash up an MX5 if I were to try and push it round the ring in less than about 10 minutes.

My point is, I don't know what is realistic when driving a 900bhp flame spitting monster to the edge of adhesion on a killer track. I know what it is when I'm doing 60 on the ring road and fiddling with the heater, but I wouldn't play GT if it involved that...

I do know what feels right though. And GT feels more right now than ever before. If they do change the physics I hope it's in the direction they're already moving in.


Kurtis.



Incidentally, live4speed, what part of Manc are you from. I'm from wythenshawe and my mum is still in Gorton. And Manyoo or Citeh?

 

[Dave A]

Yep there are memebers here who race, ther are professional drivers who created some of the games as well. Believe me, anyone who says GT4, Toca or Forza comes close to real life is wrong, GTR and LFS (especially S2) are far more realistic, not spot on but far more realistic and people who have raced all attest to that. I can understand when people just say A is more real than B without really knowing, but in this case I think GTR is the most realistic of the bunch by a long shot.

I'm from Withington (or should that be Wivinton) originally but I live in West Didsbury now, and I'm Manyoo though there too many Citeh boys around here in their Blue.

 

[zPhoenix]

By adding restriction after restriction, would it take away from open-ended fun, or would it make the game tougher to enjoy? My only concern about it all is, how do you keep a game fun while not overburdening the novice or lightly experienced racing gamer? I try to look at the big picture, not to mention thinking about how to make a game too tough that people will hate a game such as a Gran Turismo.

Restrictions can be good, if done right. But, as you say, you are better off without any if the restrictions are not done properly. A perfect example of a lame restriction that could have been awesome if done right... 5 second penalty.

 

[McLaren'sAngel]

Hiya! Meow! (='.'=)

If there is to be tight restrictions for the game, I think it would be a bad idea to put it on nearly all races. We can't just think the game being just for GT veterens, but we also have to consider the beginners too!

I would say leave the races open, but with little restrictions in the beginning of the game. Then start adding more tighter and tighter restrictions as you go. The restrictions as it gets tighter should not be like how GT4's restriction system seems to add only about 2-3 things.

Like an FF class ONLY race, but with faster FF cars. It should add like FF class ONLY, X power to weight ratio, Sport Tires, etc. Also, the bottom of the screen should tell you if you have any car in your garage that meets these requirements just like how Forza did.

We should at least allow room for the beginners to get better and get through a good majority of the game without much stress. Otherwise we may be having unsatisfied customers who will return the game because it is too hard to enjoy.

 

[Dave A]

e could have a beginner league with many more cups than the beginner league in GT4 and every race is unrestricted exept for things like FF cars only ect then have all the other events with different degree's of restrictions in all the other leagues.

 

[zPhoenix]

e could have a beginner league with many more cups than the beginner league in GT4 and every race is unrestricted exept for things like FF cars only ect then have all the other events with different degree's of restrictions in all the other leagues.

Actually, those races already exist... they are just very well hidden. You could probably reach 25% or maybe 50% completion without doing a single race over National A license.

Some beginner races are (of all ridiculous places!) in the Professional League. Many other beginner races are single-brand races, but you can't tell they are beginner level until you try them. As a matter of fact at least 50% of the single-brand races are what I would call beginner races, and they are usually beatable with non-HP upgrades. The only difficulty is the price of the car and upgrades.

What we really need is better navigation. 💡 Maybe a menu/accomplishment system similar to the status screen of GT3's arcade mode, with some minor additions like license requirements, whether your current car meets the other requirements, and what the A-spec points would be for your current vehicle.

 

[Dave A]

I'm talking about a beginner hall specifically for events with none or only a single restriction and easy competition.

 

[zPhoenix]

I'm talking about a beginner hall specifically for events with none or only a single restriction and easy competition.

OK, then what I said is still partially correct. There are a lot of single-brand races that have no other restriction besides being single brand, not even a National B license. I'd guess about 5-10% completion with no license whatsoever.

And 90% of the single-brand races can be absolutely trivial to beat if you do HP upgrades. I just did all the single-brands over the last couple weeks and I had to limit myself to brakes, suspension, and sometimes tires and/or trannies to avoid getting bored.

Combine those races, a decent menu system, and Costa D'Amalfi rally for cash... problem solved.

As I said, the problem is not lack of races, only that they are impossible to find unless you know where to look!!!

Maybe a "link" in the beginner hall that points to them?

 

[niky]

A "link" would be swell. A simplified menu system to reach all possible races would be great.