When is abortion wrong?

[Danoff]

This country stands for freedom period. But for crying out loud, freedom has a cost! and that cost is responsibility for one's actions. If people would take more responsibility for themselves, then abortion would be almost unheard of.

You're making an assumption in that statement. You're assuming that the responsible thing to do is give birth. I don't agree. I think the responsible thing to do is to have an abortion unless you're absolutely certain that you want a child.

Your statement assumes that there is something undesirable or bad about having an abortion. I don't see why that's the case.

 

[Swift]

You're making an assumption in that statement. You're assuming that the responsible thing to do is give birth. I don't agree. I think the responsible thing to do is to have an abortion unless you're absolutely certain that you want a child.

Your statement assumes that there is something undesirable or bad about having an abortion. I don't see why that's the case.

Having safe sex is like walking through a gang's neighborhood wearing the wrong colors. Sooner or later, you're not going to get through with no problem.

See, I think the responsible thing to do is say, we don't want children now at all. So let's not have sex. Now, if you do want children or are ready to support another child or flat out want to give it up for adoption, go ahead.

Abortion in America is a quick fix that doesn't even come close to solving the problem.

 

[Famine]

See, I think the responsible thing to do is say, we don't want children now at all. So let's...

... have anal sex...


*determined to kill this thread*

 

[ledhed]

Having safe sex is like walking through a gang's neighborhood wearing the wrong colors. Sooner or later, you're not going to get through with no problem.

See, I think the responsible thing to do is say, we don't want children now at all. So let's not have sex. Now, if you do want children or are ready to support another child or flat out want to give it up for adoption, go ahead.

Abortion in America is a quick fix that doesn't even come close to solving the problem.

What problem ? Unwanted pregnancy ?

@ Famine ..Wouldnt oral sex be a better solution ? I just cant seem to get behind anal sex..in fact I think it stinks. Surely it will cause hemmaroids . And worse poopy peter .

 

[Danoff]

See, I think the responsible thing to do is say, we don't want children now at all. So let's not have sex.

Swift, what is the difference between practicing safe sex, not having sex, and having an abortion?

Fundamentally what is the difference?

I don't really see it. In all three cases no child is created.

 

[Swift]

Swift, what is the difference between practicing safe sex, not having sex, and having an abortion?

Fundamentally what is the difference?

I don't really see it. In all three cases no child is created.

Take a look at Arwin's story for safe sex.

Abortion is trying to cover up responsibility for previous action. Like declaring bankrupcy for credit card debt.

Not having sex is what I've been saying.

 

[Danoff]

Take a look at Arwin's story for safe sex.

Abortion is trying to cover up responsibility for previous action. Like declaring bankrupcy for credit card debt.

Not having sex is what I've been saying.

Swift, what is wrong with having an abortion? What makes having an abortion any worse than not having sex at all?

 

[Swift]

Swift, what is wrong with having an abortion? What makes having an abortion any worse than not having sex at all?

An abortion is killing a young life. Ending life before the child has a chance to born after life has started.

Not having sex simply means that I'm not ready for the responsibilties that come with sex(there are more then just children) so I'm going to wait.

 

[Danoff]

An abortion is killing a young life. Ending life before the child has a chance to born after life has started.

Your entire argument rests on this assertion. What reason do you have to think that a fetus or embryo is a "young life"? What reason do you have to think that life begins at conception?

 

[Swift]

Your entire argument rests on this assertion. What reason do you have to think that a fetus or embryo is a "young life"? What reason do you have to think that life begins at conception?

Wow, do I really have to say it again and again? How did you get here again? You started as an embryo right?

 

[Danoff]

Wow, do I really have to say it again and again?

Just trying to get your full argument out for the record. I believe your answer to my question is that it has a soul at conception.

So your entire argument rests on the assertion that a fetus is a "young life", and your entire reasoning for that is that you belive it has a soul.

So your whole argument boils down to your religion. Now nobody is forcing you to get an abortion, but how can you think that it is ok for you to force other people not to get an abortion when the only reason you have is your religion?

Laws in the US aren't made based on religion. If they are, they're unconstitutional.

Yes, I know you wish that people would just not have sex and so this whole abortion issue would just go away. But that's not going to happen so the abortion issue will remain. There will always be unwanted pregnancies and this thread is about what is moral when that happens.

 

[Swift]

Is there any other way to get make a human naturally? huh? Any possible way?

 

[Danoff]

Is there any other way to get make a human naturally? huh? Any possible way?

Not that I know of. What does that have to do with anything?

Perhpas if you could give me some sort of objective, non-religious reason why I should think that a fetus is a living human being with rights - then I would see your argument. But if all you can point to is this notion of a soul which many don't believe in (or they believe in different versions etc..) - then I see no basis for changing the law.

 

[Swift]

Not that I know of. What does that have to do with anything?

It goes with my argument. If there is no other way to procreate humans. Then the beginning of that development is human life. To take that life is to kill.

 

[Danoff]

If there is no other way to procreate humans. Then the beginning of that development is human life.

That simply doesn't follow. I don't see why your conclusion is a necessary consequence of the premise. The beginning of that development is quite simply that - the beginning of that development. It isn't the successful culmination of that development, it isn't a product of the development, it is the beginning of it.

How can you simply assert that the beginning of the development process is the same as the beginning of life? I'm right back to my earlier argument about how we don't hand out social security numbers and birth certificates (or perhaps life certificates) to developming clusters of cells.

Pregnancy is easily viewed as a process that results in life.

What is a life in your mind? How do you define a human life? Part of my definition includes physiological independance. Yours has more to do with religion. Which of those two things does it make more sense to base law on?

 

[Famine]

Just trying to get your full argument out for the record. I believe your answer to my question is that it has a soul at conception.

So your entire argument rests on the assertion that a fetus is a "young life", and your entire reasoning for that is that you belive it has a soul.

So your whole argument boils down to your religion. Now nobody is forcing you to get an abortion, but how can you think that it is ok for you to force other people not to get an abortion when the only reason you have is your religion?

Laws in the US aren't made based on religion. If they are, they're unconstitutional.

Yes, I know you wish that people would just not have sex and so this whole abortion issue would just go away. But that's not going to happen so the abortion issue will remain. There will always be unwanted pregnancies and this thread is about what is moral when that happens.

*applauds*

 

[TheCracker]

...don't worry - there'll still be an answer

 

[Arwin]

I felt abortion was wrong BEFORE I was a christian.

If you're going to try to talk about the bible to me, that's great and I welcome it. But please don't misquote it.

I didn't quote. But I didn't misread either, you did though:


Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
[/quote]

This is easily read as "before I formed your body in the womb, I knew your Soul." It does not state at which point the Soul enters the body, although it is suggested that this happens before the body is formed. The interpretation of formed can be 'before I merged two cells', or it can be 'when your body was shapen and ready to be conceived with all five fingers, lungs, and so on'. If you are arguing that the former is the more likely interpretation, you're being a very creative reader.

(Also makes me wonder what baptism is for, by the way, as you've apparently already been sanctified before birth? Original sin is a very creative Catholic addition, it seems, unless of course this sanctification was retracted after the death of Jesus perhaps? I reckon this would be one of the bigger theological issues ... )

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Which either means that he had a well laid out plan before he started building Earth (which would suit intelligent design), or (or maybe even and) that he had a full supply of Souls ready and waiting for the endless bodies humanity was and is going to (re)create - minus two, of course, which came from clay and a 13th rib.

In other words, God knows us in the womb of our mother even before the foundation of the world. Yeah, I know. You're all going to say fundie garbage. That's fine, just don't misquote it.

My valuation of the Bible notwithstanding, I'm not convinced the Book has the definitive word on this and you're making things up as you feel suit you best. In the meantime, in practice, it has been shown again and again that the best way to limit abortions is sex-ed.

 

[TheCracker]

Saying that the only way to avoid having an unwanted pregnancy is not to have sex, is like saying the only way to avoid getting a speeding ticket is to not drive a car. Apart from stating the obvious, its just not inline with the modern world, and the way people live their lives.

 

[ledhed]

Most organized religion in this country will only agree to teach abstinence ...for some strange reason they feel that promoting condom use is encourging sexual activity .
Aside from the fact that this flys into the face of reality and is a harmfull attitude it also fails to recognize that not everyone shares the same attitude towards sex . but neverless when ever a public program is brought into schools or any other public place or when ever tax money is used to pay for a program the holier than thou will oppose it ...no matter how many die or are infected because of this lack of action. Yes education will save lives .
Try to implement it. When it comes to attitudes about the human body and sex the US is one of the most backwards countries in the world . Not that you would know it from watching MTV or cable ...go figure.

 

[Swift]

Saying that the only way to avoid having an unwanted pregnancy is not to have sex, is like saying the only way to avoid getting a speeding ticket is to not drive a car. Apart from stating the obvious, its just not inline with the modern world, and the way people live their lives.

And because it's popular it's correct?

My valuation of the Bible notwithstanding, I'm not convinced the Book has the definitive word on this and you're making things up as you feel suit you best. In the meantime, in practice, it has been shown again and again that the best way to limit abortions is sex-ed.

When did I ever say the sexual education wouldn't be a good thing? Infact, with good sexual education, people wouldn't want to have sex as much since the consequences and benifits would be clearer.

This is easily read as "before I formed your body in the womb, I knew your Soul." It does not state at which point the Soul enters the body, although it is suggested that this happens before the body is formed. The interpretation of formed can be 'before I merged two cells', or it can be 'when your body was shapen and ready to be conceived with all five fingers, lungs, and so on'. If you are arguing that the former is the more likely interpretation, you're being a very creative reader.

What part of "before" do you not get?

I'm not making things up, I'm just quoting scripture and intepreting scripture with scripture. That's all.

 

[TheCracker]

And because it's popular it's correct?

..and because its written in the pages of a 2000 year old Hebrew story book it's correct?

When did I ever say the sexual education wouldn't be a good thing? Infact, with good sexual education, people wouldn't want to have sex as much since the consequences and benifits would be clearer.

Yup, that's going to happen! - Sex education won't stop one single person from not having sex - hopefully it will make many of them think before they do it and then have safe sex. As Famine mentioned earlier, pent-up sexual tension can only lead to bad things in later life.

The only people who i know who've restrained themselves from having sex (or sex before marriage) have ended up totally ****ed up on the subject, either finding out that they and their husband/wife are totally uncompatible sexually or turned into porno hungry perv's 'cause they ain't getting any.

 

[Swift]

..and because its written in the pages of a 2000 year old Hebrew story book it's correct?

Let me ask you something. If people weren't having sex just "because" would there be a problem with AIDS right now? Or even a need for an issue on abortion?

Yup, that's going to happen! - Sex education won't stop one single person from not having sex - hopefully it will make many of them think before they do it and then have safe sex. As Famine mentioned earlier, pent-up sexual tension can only lead to bad things in later life.

Actually, it will. If people understand the significance of the consequences they can't help but to be much more careful and some, not all, will simply abstain.

 

[sicbeing]

And because it's popular it's correct?

No, it feels good 👍 are you still a virgin or something?

When did I ever say the sexual education wouldn't be a good thing? Infact, with good sexual education, people wouldn't want to have sex as much since the consequences and benifits would be clearer.

Kids wont care what the consquences are, especially guys. You could tell them that everytime they bust a nut that they'll take 5 minutes off of their life. Like how they tried to scare you with ciggarettes, bottom line is itll still happen.

What part of "before" do you not get?

I'm not making things up, I'm just quoting scripture and intepreting scripture with scripture. That's all.

Heres a good concept. When sperm is generated in my sack by my balls, id say they are "alive" , able to roam around by themselves, as far as i understand. Do they have a soul then? Or do they have a soul when they are ejected into your lady friend? Either way, it wont matter, cuz this country's administrations cant do anything based on something like a "soul".

Let me ask you something. If people weren't having sex just "because" would there be a problem with AIDS right now?
.

Sure, Blood transfers donars etc. Plus, besides, even if for the sex cases that arent "just because it feels good", you can still transfer it. Just because its "wrong" sex doesnt mean that "right" sex cant transfer the disease.

Sure, Blood transfers donars etc. Plus, besides, even if for the sex cases that arent "just because it feels good", you can still transfer it. Just because its "wrong" sex doesnt mean that "right" sex cant transfer the disease.

But that doesnt help agrue because where it came from was apparantly as monkey. So someone had to have sex with a monkey in africa or something and then come over here and just start doing it with other guys. Or something, i cant remember, i havent seen philadelphia in a long while neither.

Why do we argeu about such things anyway? Millions of people die each and every day, what will an extra million or so everyday hurt? and on top of that its the kind of life that MOST of the country dont want and its also the easiet life to create, i got tons of sperm left in there! Whats the difference anyway? When you let a load off, only 1 outta I dunno how many sperm will make it to the egg, IF at all. All the other one die (god bless the poor bastards) and when we masturbate / pull out / use condoms they all die too. =(

But, not having sex aint gonna work, its a nice thing to dream about if all the worlds people stayed virgins until they got married. But then what, wed have more marriages and divorces then one would be able to imagine. Wont solve anything.

 

[Swift]

Sicbeing, did you edit button break? Let me get that for you...

 

[sicbeing]

this isnt about me and my unabilty to use the edit button, this is about abortion!

No actually i figured if i edited it come back and have four more posts and then my edit would go unread, so i was making sure i was heard thats all 👍

 

[Duke]

But that doesnt help agrue because where it came from was apparantly as monkey. So someone had to have sex with a monkey in africa or something and then come over here and just start doing it with other guys.

Do the world a favor, and just don't post when you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Swift]

this isnt about me and my unabilty to use the edit button, this is about abortion!

No actually i figured if i edited it come back and have four more posts and then my edit would go unread, so i was making sure i was heard thats all 👍

That's not a cool policy. The people in this thread will read your edits. So use the edit button from now on. Thanks.

 

[smoovejas]

This is a very difficult issue and one that I just witnessed today.

A friend of mine from high school came to my work today. She had a child since I saw her at our graduation, four years ago. She is not married, not with the child's father, and is very irresponsible. In her situation, she had casual sex with a man. She blames her "horrible" life on the decision to have the child.

I would never want a child to be raised in a household where he/she is not appreciated because of their parent's mistake. To do so is to persecute the innocent party because the guitly party does not want the blame. I almost wish that she had an abortion so the child would not grow up in this household.

However, I know there are different situations such as rape and incest. I will never judge a woman for her decision to abort when she did not consent to sex.

As a woman, it is hard to see female friends make the decision to have children that they do not want. However, most of them decided to have sex with the other individual. When two adults consent to sex, they should regard the act as a life-changing event. The act should never be taken lightly.

I believe that abortion in this situation is knowing before having sex that you can delete your mistake. Adults who decide to do this have no respect for life in general.

 

[ledhed]

Not for nothing but...be a friend and buy her some condoms..maybe talk to her about birth control . WTF in this day and age you would think contraception would be known about and actualy used . Sex only has to be a life changing event if you want it to be ....or your a moron ...and dont want it to be and engage in it without precautions.