Where does Gran Turismo Sport stand in the order of racing titles? (on realism and difficulty).

[Scaff]

I don't have DR2 but I do have DR so I know what it lacks but could you say what it is about SLRE and WRC8 that they do better?

SLRE has the better overall tyre model, with the grip levels closer to what they should be, particularly on gravel. The impact of the surface changes has a lot more impact on the vehicle and its stability and your ability to lay down power and brake.

With WRC8 is less of a clear advantage over DR2.0, certainly, it gets the grip levels on the tarmac more accurate than DR2.0 (but they are still too grippy) and again the impact of the surface changes, particularly across the very wide range of surfaces that can occur on a stage have much more impact. Its tyre wear model is also better, with DR2.0 you can pretty much slap on softs and not really worry about it, with WRC8 you have to think about the impact the surface, the stage length, your driving style and the next stage will have and it can impact massively on the amount of wear, particularly as on gravel grip starts to drop off from around 40%-50% wear (which is accurate as the square shoulders on the tread wear and start to lose the ability to cut into the gravel).

 

[beyond72]

I've never seen much of a difference with the handling of past GT and Forza games on a controller.
But in terms of difficulty, the weak AI in GT6 put me off the series.

I think the trouble with FM7 is the homologation coupled with the amount of cars in the game, so many cars are set up badly I'm guessing through an automatic upgrade system?

 

[bil coz]

Nice Post, not often people take the time to consider it from two perspectives.

My own view, based on real world experience and quite a lot of analysis is :

Track Based.
AC
Project Cars 2
GTS
F1 20xx
Driveclub
Grid

Rally.
SLRE
WRC8
Dirt Rally 2
Dakar 18
Baja Edge of Control
V Rally 4
Gravel

Would you mind expanding on what constitutes your "real world experience" and "quite a lot of analysis"?
I took a glance at your YouTube channel and noticed you were driving with TCS on in GTS and your driving did not exactly look like one of a very experienced driver.

Respectfully yours,

Me.

(I put all of my remaining faith in humanity in this post. Please don't delete it)

 

[Nuschel01]

you were driving with TCS on

What's the problem with that? If you look a bit closer it's not really engaging that much so I suppose he's not using it to just compensate for awful throttle control and wanting the ability to just floor it and be rescued by TCS.

 

[bil coz]

What's the problem with that? If you look a bit closer it's not really engaging that much so I suppose he's not using it to just compensate for awful throttle control and wanting the ability to just floor it and be rescued by TCS.

The problem with that is anyone who can drive would have made sure to disable it from the get go because there is nothing quite like it to waste your fun in a car.
Thus by using the simplest bit of logic I'm quickly faced with the cold facts: This person is not in a position to participate in the debate.

 

[daan]

This person is not in a position to participate in the debate.

That is not your decision. It's been said already but play the ball, not the man.

 

[Scaff]

The problem with that is anyone who can drive would have made sure to disable it from the get go because there is nothing quite like it to waste your fun in a car.
Thus by using the simplest bit of logic, I'm quickly faced with the cold facts: This person is not in a position to participate in the debate.

So just to be clear no current GT4, GT3 driver, Aryton Senna and any other F1 driver from the early '90s and no LMP1 or LMP2 driver 'can drive'?

I only ask as they all partake or have partaken in series that run TCS systems.

As for why I run it in GTS, the simple answer is I don't always run it, I run it depending on the car in question and how I feel on the day. With titles that have a better physics engine than GTS I always run the configuration that the real car/series allows, as that's what I am personally after in a title.

My own experience is over twenty years in the motor industry, much of it in training, with experience in training vehicle dynamics for a range of OEMs, as well as countless hours of track and proving ground time for both road and race-spec cars (something the staff here at GTP are all well aware of). Not that it actually matters in the least, as an analogy Leo Fender, the man who brought more developments and innovation to the guitar than perhaps anyone (and came up with the entire concept of the bass guitar) couldn't himself play the guitar. would that then invalidate him from a discussion on the guitar? No.

You don't get to pick who does and doesn't participate, the staff do, and being able to drive a pretend car quickly doesn't automatically make you an expert in vehicle dynamics and how accurately they are modelled in titles.

 

[bil coz]

So just to be clear no current GT4, GT3 driver, Aryton Senna and any other F1 driver from the early '90s and no LMP1 or LMP2 driver 'can drive'?

I only ask as they all partake or have partaken in series that run TCS systems.

As for why I run it in GTS, the simple answer is I don't always run it, I run it depending on the car in question and how I feel on the day. With titles that have a better physics engine than GTS I always run the configuration that the real car/series allows, as that's what I am personally after in a title.

My own experience is over twenty years in the motor industry, much of it in training, with experience in training vehicle dynamics for a range of OEMs, as well as countless hours of track and proving ground time for both road and race-spec cars (something the staff here at GTP are all well aware of). Not that it actually matters in the least, as an analogy Leo Fender, the man who brought more developments and innovation to the guitar than perhaps anyone (and came up with the entire concept of the bass guitar) couldn't himself play the guitar. would that then invalidate him from a discussion on the guitar? No.

You don't get to pick who does and doesn't participate, the staff do, and being able to drive a pretend car quickly doesn't automatically make you an expert in vehicle dynamics and how accurately they are modelled in titles.

You are using TCS on SH tyres so don't try to Ayrton Senna me. It might make sense to use TCS on very high grip setups, because if you ever break traction you're in a hairy situation. Using it as you do is just a classic beginner move.

 

[Groundfish]

The problem with that is anyone who can drive would have made sure to disable it from the get go because there is nothing quite like it to waste your fun in a car.
Thus by using the simplest bit of logic I'm quickly faced with the cold facts: This person is not in a position to participate in the debate.

I’m against the blanket turn tcs off always typical simracer recommendation as well.
I’m outspoken and my opinions differ from some others, but that’s not a non starter for street cred.
I think we know what I’m trying to say.
I do agree about some driving I have seen though.
I do my own thing DR2 I run alfresco all cars everything off.
GTS I run TCS Off on most MR but power cars usually default or 2. GTs I use quite a bit of ABS weak depending on combo.

 

[MaxAttack]

You are using TCS on SH tyres so don't try to Ayrton Senna me. It might make sense to use TCS on very high grip setups, because if you ever break traction you're in a hairy situation. Using it as you do is just a classic beginner move.

As a guy who drives almost exclusively with TCS off all the way up to Gr. 1, you're in the wrong.

Someone using driver aids that you don't doesn't automatically make them a worse driver than you, neither does it disqualify them from having an opinion about the game they play and its realism/lack thereof.

You're not a bigman or an expert just because you drive with TCS off, and it doesn't qualify you to tell people how the game should be played. You can espouse the merits of TCS off - like explaining that it will increase your pace out of corners if you can master it, or that it might make the game feel a bit more visceral and exciting when the back can step out for a mistake, but it's wrong and rude of you to imply someone has an inferior opinion/understanding of the game because they don't play it the same way as you do.

 

[bil coz]

That is not your decision. It's been said already but play the ball, not the man.

the ball is mainly each participant's credibility in this game.

As a guy who drives almost exclusively with TCS off all the way up to Gr. 1, you're in the wrong.

Someone using driver aids that you don't doesn't automatically make them a worse driver than you, neither does it disqualify them from having an opinion about the game they play and its realism/lack thereof.

You're not a bigman or an expert just because you drive with TCS off, and it doesn't qualify you to tell people how the game should be played. You can espouse the merits of TCS off - like explaining that it will increase your pace out of corners if you can master it, or that it might make the game feel a bit more visceral and exciting when the back can step out for a mistake, but it's wrong and rude of you to imply someone has an inferior opinion/understanding of the game because they don't play it the same way as you do.

I didn't try to imply I was the big man by always turning TCS off on road cars, it's just the basics bro. I stand by my point that someone who doesn't know how to enjoy driving the right way is in a bad place to judge which game does it better.

 

[Groundfish]

I have to say, for a unique and phenomenal experience, the tarmac of Monte Carlo and Ribadalles, and one of the Baumholder stages in DIRT RALLY 2
are amazing, incredible flow for miles.
With rear drive cars these are definite highlights on console.
Whether the actual grip levels have been measured and compared to correlate with reality is absolutely irrelevant in my view.
These are amazing to drive period.
Cockpit has hands and wheel or none your choice.
What’s real is when you are in the flow going fast at the proper slip angle.
Amazing.
Whether or not the g forces match some measured value in reality is not relevant to quality driving. Plus, I would guess any assertions made regarding that are opinions and have not been objectively measured. My point though is it doesn’t matter in terms of enjoyment.
Highly recommend.
Same with New Zealand.
If you have good fundamental technique and start to hit a flow the experience provided is sublime and far different from circuit racing.
That’s not to mention varying weather and surface conditions ranging from dry tarmac to ice IN THE SAME STAGE.

 

[bil coz]

I have to say, for a unique and phenomenal experience, the tarmac of Monte Carlo and Ribadalles, and one of the Baumholder stages in DIRT RALLY 2
are amazing, incredible flow for miles.
With rear drive cars these are definite highlights on console.
Whether the actual grip levels have been measured and compared to correlate with reality is absolutely irrelevant in my view.
These are amazing to drive period.
Cockpit has hands and wheel or none your choice.
What’s real is when you are in the flow going fast at the proper slip angle.
Amazing.
Whether or not the g forces match some measured value in reality is not relevant to quality driving. Plus, I would guess any assertions made regarding that are opinions and have not been objectively measured. My point though is it doesn’t matter in terms of enjoyment.
Highly recommend.
Same with New Zealand.
If you have good fundamental technique and start to hit a flow the experience provided is sublime and far different from circuit racing.

All I know is that RWD cars were zero joy in the wheel on Dirt Rally 1 (completely unnatural physics, car impossible to spin), and eye test on Dirt Rally 2 looks like more of the same but I'd love to be wrong.

 

[Groundfish]

All I know is that RWD cars were zero joy in the wheel on Dirt Rally 1 (completely unnatural physics, car impossible to spin), and eye test on Dirt Rally 2 looks like more of the same but I'd love to be wrong.

I hated DR1 tarmac.

 

[bil coz]

I hated DR1 tarmac.

watched some DR2 vid of a guy drifting a Mustang. Doesn't look great even though the guy seems skilled, not enough countersteer is needed. Like the car wants to snap back as soon as he countersteers, even if he stays on power. That's 4wd type behaviour on a rwd car, same as DR1. good for gamers I guess, but not an enjoyable sim.

 

[bil coz]

I mean come on. Assoluto Racing on Android, GT1 on PSX are light years ahead of that physics wise.

Look at this thing not being a car.

 

[Groundfish]

watched some DR2 vid of a guy drifting a Mustang. Doesn't look great even though the guy seems skilled, not enough countersteer is needed. Like the car wants to snap back as soon as he countersteers, even if he stays on power. That's 4wd type behaviour on a rwd car, same as DR1. good for gamers I guess, but not an enjoyable sim.

I can’t compare to rf2, I pretty much despise drifting.
I like to get power down.
For me, dr2 ribadalles is sublime not for oversteer drifting but finding that balanced slip angle and staying in it.
Maybe for pc people their opinion might be very different from mine.
I can say skill wise Dr2 is fun for the challenges daily because no retries, one off and you’ll be midpack on the world cross platform leaderboard. Clean slow stage midpack.
I like the aspect of one chance you v world on a stage.
The game has annoying pay content though.
For me in cars I like a good daily run will net me around 2-300 overall world.
I’m solid in rwd, I’ve hit 300s group b a few times.
Cockpit view alfresco no nothin no abs nothin.
I don’t think that’s unskilled.
I think the games sublime ymmv.

 

[Groundfish]

I mean come on. Assoluto Racing on Android, GT1 on PSX are light years ahead of that physics wise.

Look at this thing not being a car.

Driving like that is not the fastest way or most fun imo.
Lotta scrubbing speed and wheel spin, no idea if that’s on controller with aids or what.
Driving like that’s not my cup of tea.
But again to each their own, and I haven’t tried rf2.
It may well be you are phenomenal, and I am a pleb.

 

[dragster666]

i still cannot believe that people are buying ac on console the physics got dumbed down by a lot on console. PC2 feels simcade imo. its like the car just wants to snap out at times they can even feel like go karts. The Huyara bc for an example feels tame in ac in pc2 it feels like its a freaking tvr cerebra speed 12 this goes the same for forza with its over exaggeration. On rf2 and ac you can feel every bump on the nur. Never played Irent

 

[Shingo_civic]

I mean come on. Assoluto Racing on Android, GT1 on PSX are light years ahead of that physics wise.

Look at this thing not being a car.

Cars in this game seem to have no weight,as if they were made of polystyrene

 

[bil coz]

Driving like that is not the fastest way or most fun imo.
Lotta scrubbing speed and wheel spin, no idea if that’s on controller with aids or what.
Driving like that’s not my cup of tea.
But again to each their own, and I haven’t tried rf2.
It may well be you are phenomenal, and I am a pleb.

to each his own but the point is that great sims are great for drifting. Even IRacing in which drifting is forbidden is good at it.
PCars joke of a physics system is exposed when you see people trying to drift. They had to release a special mx5 to make it possible and it was still laughable.

RFactor
LFS
Assetto Corsa
IRacing
GT
Forza

they're not frauds.

 

[Scaff]

You are using TCS on SH tyres so don't try to Ayrton Senna me. It might make sense to use TCS on very high grip setups, because if you ever break traction you're in a hairy situation.

You're the one who claimed that (with regard to TCS)...

"anyone who can drive would have made sure to disable it from the get go"

...so please don't complain when it comes back to bite you.

Using it as you do is just a classic beginner move.

Yep, utter beginner me, that must be it

the ball is mainly each participant's credibility in this game.

Nope, not at all.

Playing the ball is supporting you position with actual data and supporting evidence, playing the man is using insults and petty digs in place of it, which is why your posts doing so got deleted.

I didn't try to imply I was the big man by always turning TCS off on road cars, it's just the basics bro. I stand by my point that someone who doesn't know how to enjoy driving the right way is in a bad place to judge which game does it better.

Ah, so the right way is your way, got it.

By the way, what gives you that mandate?

 

[bil coz]

You're the one who claimed that (with regard to TCS)...

"anyone who can drive would have made sure to disable it from the get go"

...so please don't complain when it comes back to bite you.


Yep, utter beginner me, that must be it


Nope, not at all.

Playing the ball is supporting you position with actual data and supporting evidence, playing the man is using insults and petty digs in place of it, which is why your posts doing so got deleted.


Ah, so the right way is your way, got it.

By the way, what gives you that mandate?

drivel

 

[Groundfish]

I guess one thing is true. For some unknown reason when the words realism or sim are employed things get toxic within a couple posts.
It’s one reason I steer clear when the phenomenally talented and supremely knowledgeable and undoubtedly pale skinned pc sim community decides to flex its muscle over the net.
So toxic.

 

[killerjimbag]

drivel

Are you serious? I'm laughing my arse off. Bro you should look at whom is posting. Yes your correct,your starting to post drivel.

 

[Silver Arrows]

I guess one thing is true. For some unknown reason when the words realism or sim are employed things get toxic within a couple posts.
It’s one reason I steer clear when the phenomenally talented and supremely knowledgeable and undoubtedly pale skinned pc sim community decides to flex its muscle over the net.
So toxic.

It's really just another form of intra-series pissing matches, tbh. Instead of it being rooted in consoles and Forza and GT, it's rooted in tribalism via different sim racing series, all trying to one up one another via making their games harder and much more difficult in a chase for 'realism'.

drivel

lol so what kind of argument is this.

 

[watto79]

someone who doesn't know how to enjoy driving the right way

 

[Groundfish]

It's really just another form of intra-series pissing matches, tbh. Instead of it being rooted in consoles and Forza and GT, it's rooted in tribalism via different sim racing series, all trying to one up one another via making their games harder and much more difficult in a chase for 'realism'.



lol so what kind of argument is this.

Yeah I mean everyone has their video game threshold.
I’m at my fun zone with a nice ffb wheel load cell and console.
My family runs some very cool karts so for real fun and realism I do that.
For 5-1000 dollars outlay I can have way more fun irl.
To me 55 inch nice wheel good sound...
That’s peachy. I have no interest in the ‘hardcore sim’ deal.
Get karting it’s cheap and fun. Console games are way way real enough for me.
Super fun.
Gts has a great community of fun loving cool people.

 

[Scaff]

drivel

What an elegant and well articulated reply.

 

[Silver Arrows]

What an elegant and well articulated reply.

Not the first time he's done it, now that I remember the name...

Nobody cares sorry. tldr kind of as well.

There is no discussion. You're just hoping someone will notice your writing skills, but you got nothing to say.

Driving dirt tracks in GT2 on PSX feels better than Dirt Rally.
Blah Blah Blah Pokemon (Pokemon???) Blah Blah.