White Privilege

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It's a forum so most of us are chill and still have the ability to argue decisive subject matter without the need to get high. But if you must don't let our "hostility" stop you from doing something that is off topic.

Doesn’t change the fact that if you are in Mexico, Mexicans would be both the most & least racist people in that country, in the US it would be the majority (which is white people), in Brazil, it would be Brazilians. Round and round we go, still.
 
Doesn’t change the fact that if you are in Mexico, Mexicans would be both the most & least racist people in that country, in the US it would be the majority (which is white people), in Brazil, it would be Brazilians. Round and round we go, still.
Shame Mexicans and Brazilians can be named what they are, but Americans get divided into skin colour.
 
Doesn’t change the fact that if you are in Mexico, Mexicans would be both the most & least racist people in that country, in the US it would be the majority (which is white people), in Brazil, it would be Brazilians. Round and round we go, still.

First off what does that have to do with taking drugs to interact in this or other OCE threads (presumably). Second, demographics as you've tried to express just now don't work nearly as black and white as shown. Brazil for instances has populations of Brazilians that are more Portuguese and then some of those that are darker and more descendant of black ancestry that has at times been a discriminating factor. Same for those who are of indigenous descent and currently at risk from the new elected Brazilian President. Mexico has also had this issue. The U.S. however is comprised of American's with various racial backgrounds and thus while whites may be the majority color that doesn't mean your correlation is correct at all. What you've described is not ethnicity or race, but nationality, which is actually different.

Interestingly enough whites are the majority race in Brazil, not "Brazilians", thus showing that you are loosely throwing about ideals that aren't correct. You did strike luck with Mexico since mexico does not record census data on ethnicity.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2075.html
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mx.html

Futher, to @mustafur point I find your (the_boy) views a bit racist (though not your intent). That you would essentially blanket group various people of color in these nations, and label them only by their nationality, due to ignorance of their actual census make up. But when it comes to the U.S. you break them down by ethnicity but not nationality like said other nations.
 
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Doesn’t change the fact that if you are in Mexico, Mexicans would be both the most & least racist people in that country, in the US it would be the majority (which is white people), in Brazil, it would be Brazilians. Round and round we go, still.

The ironic part about that is that white people are not the majority in Brasil.
 
It's not rocket science. I'm not an adult yet so my options are more limited but:
  • Support POC political candidates
  • Vote out candidates who are racist.
  • Protest all forms of racism, including going to BLM rallies.
  • Become allies with POC, understanding their hardships.
  • Donate to charities that are dedicated to uplifting POCs.
  • Be an activist against white supremacy on social media.
  • Support POC owned business/corporations.
The list goes on. As white people (the priviliged), it is our obligation to do what we can to help disadvantaged Americans like POCs.

How do you address this in countries where white people are not the majority?

I'm not stirring, I'm honestly just curious as to what your thoughts on it are.
 
I don't think it's racist. It's a holiday tradition for another culture, so there's a story to it and the origin of Jan Schenkman's story doesn't seem as if he purposely intended on painting black people as Santa's helpers in the future. From what I'm researching, Black Pete is black because he's from a Muslim country & is nothing more than basically, Saint Nicholas' companion in the original story. Thus, the people there are Saint Nicholas' companions.

But, I do see the controversy. At first impressions, it is an old white man surrounded by black servants, or worse yet, white people portraying black servants. Again, based on its history though, I don't believe there is any ill-will meant by any of those people towards blacks. Black Pete seems more of a revered character with Saint Nicholas & they hold respect for his companionship.

That is exactly the point of view a lot of ducth people view the "tradition". However reality is somewhat darker:

P1130971-PJ-van-Geldorp-1200pix.jpg
2697695_orig.jpg


Black Pete was originally conceived to "scare" small children to be good or otherwise they would be taken in a sack to Spain as punishment. And most likely was based of "Krampus" a black half-goat/half-man demon.
krampus-en-sint.jpg


People also forget to mention that the Netherlands had a big role in the slavetrade. While you could say Black pete wasnt intended as racism, you do need to know that slavery only was abolished in 1860 in the netherlands. So there was a similair "blackface"stereotype here as there was in the Netherlands. And "black" people were often used to scare young children at the time.

His demeanor did change to a much friendlier one in modern times. But even if you dont consider the origin racist, what does make it racist know is that blackface culturally is considered much more offensive then a 60-100 years ago. And know many dutch use the excuse of blackface as being sutter from going down the chimney to give people their gifts.
ZP3.jpg


But that doesnt explain the red lips, golden earrings and frizzy hair and often fake accent. Also most home dont use chimnies anymore compared to 60-100 years ago.

16744_18517_500_500.jpg


Their second defense is that it is a childrens holiday which they dont want to ruin for the children. However I am convinced that children would enjoy the holiday even when Pete is blue, red, yellow or any random color or pattern.
Do you still think it is not racist?
 
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However I am convinced that children would enjoy the holiday even when Pete is blue, red, yellow or any random color or pattern.
Well that could include black and just not making race a part of it. Even if it was originally something racist, it can evolve not to be. Unless right now people are using Pete to mock or belittle others, it doesn't bother me.
 
That is exactly the point of view a lot of ducth people view the "tradition". However reality is somewhat darker:

P1130971-PJ-van-Geldorp-1200pix.jpg
2697695_orig.jpg


Black Pete was originally conceived to "scare" small children to be good or otherwise they would be taken in a sack to Spain as punishment. And most likely was based of "Krampus" a black half-goat/half-man demon.
krampus-en-sint.jpg


People also forget to mention that the Netherlands had a big role in the slavetrade. While you could say Black pete wasnt intended as racism, you do need to know that slavery only was abolished in 1860 in the netherlands. So there was a similair "blackface"stereotype here as there was in the Netherlands. And "black" people were often used to scare young children at the time.

His demeanor did change to a much friendlier one in modern times. But even if you dont consider the origin racist, what does make it racist know is that blackface culturally is considered much more offensive then a 60-100 years ago. And know many dutch use the excuse of blackface as being sutter from going down the chimney to give people their gifts.
ZP3.jpg


But that doesnt explain the red lips, golden earrings and frizzy hair and often fake accent. Also most home dont use chimnies anymore compared to 60-100 years ago.

16744_18517_500_500.jpg


Their second defense is that it is a childrens holiday which they dont want to ruin for the children. However I am convinced that children would enjoy the holiday even when Pete is blue, red, yellow or any random color or pattern.
Do you still think it is not racist?


Even taking that context into account as 100% correct, would it be possible to make a tradition with darker roots (no pun intended) into a positive thing? Like, say, Christmas turned into a family reunion more than a religious celebration of a pagan god and other similar traditions that nowadays don't involve human or animal sacrifices?

I don't like to say something is racist / tribalist because a century or millenia ago it brew out of racism / tribalism. It seems the holiday in the Netherlands, and from the pictures I've seen on google, people turned something questionably stupid into something fun. That's better than deleting it from history IMO. In that lst picture you shared, it doesn't seem the girls are making fun of black people or being racist but just having fun.

On the other hand, I can understand how for some people this might seem wrong or at least morally questionable, especially if they're not directly involved in the tradition or live in the Netherlands and are black. I imagine these types of traditions could possible attract less and less people and be something future generations will only read about in books and see in pictures. But I think it's way to easy to accuse these people, who enjoy the holiday today, of being racist.
 
Well that could include black and just not making race a part of it. Even if it was originally something racist, it can evolve not to be. Unless right now people are using Pete to mock or belittle others, it doesn't bother me.

Yeah it could in theory. But many dutch also dont want to get rid of the red lipstick and frizzy hair. Which does establish black pete being ethnically black again, instead of just a random blackcoloured (literal sense of the word) person. My opinion is that changing the apprearance of black pete would have no concequense of the hilday for the children at all. But in the end, the logic they use is that it is a childrens holiday, so it couldnt possibly racist.

In the Netherlands, or in America?


Good lord that's a stretch.

Both.

whta do you meant with a stretch?
 
Yeah it could in theory. But many dutch also dont want to get rid of the red lipstick and frizzy hair. Which does establish black pete being ethnically black again, instead of just a random blackcoloured (literal sense of the word) person. My opinion is that changing the apprearance of black pete would have no concequense of the hilday for the children at all. But in the end, the logic they use is that it is a childrens holiday, so it couldnt possibly racist.
I agree that changing Pete's appearance wouldn't have much effect on the holiday, but at the same time I can see why people might resist on the grounds of tradition. The closest thing I might compare it to the traditional image of Santa Claus being fat. If a movement came along that suggested he be made thin to promote health or something, that wouldn't change the holiday. People would probably resist anyway.

Ultimately though I don't see any racist intent behind Pete in his current form. I can understand why some people might be offended and changing Pete to appease them I can also understand.
 

Do KKK members put on black face to mock or belittle black people? I seriously doubt it. They'd never dream of making themselves into the image of something they consider to be so beneath them. These people are putting black face on themselves. If anything, it highlights that they consider the change to be only skin deep. Do they behave differently while wearing the makeup? Do they perform in a derogatory manner?

Do they encourage people to throw bananas at them or behave in a way that would suggest that they're a lesser primate? If not, this is as un-racist as it gets. The willingness to actually become someone with another skin color and yet be yourself and have fun is inclusive.

john-barnes-974085.png
 
I agree that changing Pete's appearance wouldn't have much effect on the holiday, but at the same time I can see why people might resist on the grounds of tradition. The closest thing I might compare it to the traditional image of Santa Claus being fat. If a movement came along that suggested he be made thin to promote health or something, that wouldn't change the holiday. People would probably resist anyway.

Ultimately though I don't see any racist intent behind Pete in his current form. I can understand why some people might be offended and changing Pete to appease them I can also understand.

I think the comparison would be better if short people would start claiming santa's little helpers being vertically challenged is racist. I forgot to add that Pete is the servant of Sinterklaas. Which might add to the argument of the racist slavetrade origins.

How does Sinterklaus get the gifts into the homes and to the children if people don't use chimneys anymore? B&E?
25ab0c6beb69f1c8bd924f9af1c30c5b.jpg

I guess the same way how Santaclaus does it when he enters home without chimnees?

images


Do KKK members put on black face to mock or belittle black people? I seriously doubt it. They'd never dream of making themselves into the image of something they consider to be so beneath them. These people are putting black face on themselves. If anything, it highlights that they consider the change to be only skin deep. Do they behave differently while wearing the makeup? Do they perform in a derogatory manner?

Do they encourage people to throw bananas at them or behave in a way that would suggest that they're a lesser primate? If not, this is as un-racist as it gets. The willingness to actually become someone with another skin color and yet be yourself and have fun is inclusive.

john-barnes-974085.png

I would agree. But it really depends how blackface is done. Red lipstick, creole earrings, frizzy hair really makes it too much of a stereotype. But honestly how would a white person dressing up for halloween as michael jordan or beyonce do it , without being offensive?

Apparantly you leave out the color.
Kristin+Wiig+Visits+Late+Night+Jimmy+Fallon+Py0jP2RhmKDl.jpg



If a white person dressed up as an asian like mickey Rooney, I would be extremely offended though.

muckeyrooney-mryunioshi-300x294.jpg
 
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Do KKK members put on black face to mock or belittle black people? I seriously doubt it. They'd never dream of making themselves into the image of something they consider to be so beneath them. These people are putting black face on themselves. If anything, it highlights that they consider the change to be only skin deep. Do they behave differently while wearing the makeup? Do they perform in a derogatory manner?
john-barnes-974085.png

Historically, black face often was used for clown and comical type characters. It wasn't exactly reverent in how it portrayed people of color. So you can find historical issue in that.

The other problem is appropriation. By "borrowing" traits that would typically resulted in a group being persecuted - dark skin, the hair - and using those while not having to deal with the troubles of living with those traits comes across as "it's okay for us to pretend to be you but still not okay for you to be you." This issue comes up constantly, from Apu in the Simpsons to wearing a sombrero and borrowing a bad Mexican accent to squinting one's eyes and saying vaguely "Chinese" sounding "words," for the sake of humor at the expense of a group that is routinely punished for having those traits.

This is the problem with Black Face. And generally ties into the issue of White Privilege and cultural appropriation.
 
cultural appropriation

So we got another non issue brought to the discussion of a non issue to start with.

Because you assume only white people make fun (that's not being racist) of other people. I'd guess more people make fun of rednecks and southerners in the USA than make fun of black people. Are they (mostly white people) racist against other white people?

And this happens everywhere btw. In my country, people from the north make fun of people from the south, the way they talk, etc. And we all look the same.

As Hitchens used to say: A good joke has to be at someone's expense.

People take jokes way to seriously nowadays. I think not having to deal with serious problems in live and in society (which is a good thing) like, say, wars and epidemics, is part of it.

Edit: I don't think the people in the pictures are making fun of black people.
 
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I would agree. But it really depends how blackface is done. Red lipstick, creole earrings, frizzy hair really makes it too much of a stereotype.

The other problem is appropriation. By "borrowing" traits that would typically resulted in a group being persecuted - dark skin, the hair - and using those while not having to deal with the troubles of living with those traits comes across as "it's okay for us to pretend to be you but still not okay for you to be you." This issue comes up constantly, from Apu in the Simpsons to wearing a sombrero and borrowing a bad Mexican accent to squinting one's eyes and saying vaguely "Chinese" sounding "words," for the sake of humor at the expense of a group that is routinely punished for having those traits.

I completely agree that you can be offensive by dressing up as someone else. But you can also be celebratory by doing so. Dressing like Santa is not mocking Santa. Dressing like Guy Fawkes is not necessarily mocking him either. It's the difference between a statue and an effigy. It's all about intent.
 
That is exactly the point of view a lot of ducth people view the "tradition". However reality is somewhat darker:
Black Pete was originally conceived to "scare" small children to be good or otherwise they would be taken in a sack to Spain as punishment. And most likely was based of "Krampus" a black half-goat/half-man demon.
From what I have read, the 2 are recognized as different characters, and that Black Pete was altered to be more friendly because they found similarities between him & Krampus' demeanor.

According to Wiki, it would appear in folk songs that Saint Nicholas & Black Pete would either reward children, or take them back to Spain for being naughty.
People also forget to mention that the Netherlands had a big role in the slavetrade. While you could say Black pete wasnt intended as racism, you do need to know that slavery only was abolished in 1860 in the netherlands. So there was a similair "blackface"stereotype here as there was in the Netherlands. And "black" people were often used to scare young children at the time.
That may be, but Black Pete isn't a slave. It's written he's only black because he is a moor. Unless moors were also slaves during that time, it seems like a coincidence. The most I've read that implies Black Pete was a slave concludes that Saint Nicholas freed him and Black Pete returns his gesture with companionship.
His demeanor did change to a much friendlier one in modern times. But even if you dont consider the origin racist, what does make it racist know is that blackface culturally is considered much more offensive then a 60-100 years ago. And know many dutch use the excuse of blackface as being sutter from going down the chimney to give people their gifts.

But that doesnt explain the red lips, golden earrings and frizzy hair and often fake accent. Also most home dont use chimnies anymore compared to 60-100 years ago.

Their second defense is that it is a childrens holiday which they dont want to ruin for the children. However I am convinced that children would enjoy the holiday even when Pete is blue, red, yellow or any random color or pattern.
Do you still think it is not racist?
No, I don't. They're portraying a character that is seen as Santa's sidekick, some reports indicating that Black Pete arrives with Saint Nicholas with a basket full of gifts rather than a rod to punish. None of what they're doing appears to mock or push African stereotypes from what I've read: Renaissance clothing, red lips, and fake accents. So the only common ground is the blackface & frizzy hair, apparently.

They appear simply to only be in blackface & frizzy hair because Black Pete is black, and Black Pete is only black because of his origin as a Moor. Moors are a mix of Spanish, Arab, and Berber (which is likely where the skin color/hair is dictated) who were Muslims living in Portugal & Spain way back. Spain is relayed as the home country of where Saint Nicholas & Black Pete would take naughty children in the original story. There is a strong linkage of why he is portrayed the way he is.

As I said, I get the controversy. At first glance, it looks very insensitive. But, this is an innocent tradition that isn't really stereotyping black people at all. The only common ground appears to be the skin color. Otherwise, he has red lips, colorful clothing, and passes out gifts to children next to Santa. According to Wiki, some children seem to see him as more of a clown figure than a representation of black people. I think there are far, far more concerning portrayals of black people to get upset than 1 in which the character is seen as a welcome-sight. Altering the tradition because it has a black man in it, would be something like if we altered Christmas here because Santa's elves are portrayed as little people.
I would agree. But it really depends how blackface is done. Red lipstick, creole earrings, frizzy hair really makes it too much of a stereotype.
Mate, c'mon. Red lipstick and hoop earrlngs are not stereotypes of black people. The fact people (not you) get genuinely butthurt for hoop earrings to be seen as cultural appropriation shows that we must be at the best time in history for race relations if a damn earring ticks people off. If a giant circle version of an earring is cultural appropriation, then earrings themselves are cultural appropriations of Greece culture. Lipstick? That's Middle Eastern culture. Red versions were more commonly associated with Egypt.

Some people genuinely have too much time on their hands to go around looking to be a victim by dictating whoever made what first, gets to keep as their culture.
 
I completely agree that you can be offensive by dressing up as someone else. But you can also be celebratory by doing so. Dressing like Santa is not mocking Santa. Dressing like Guy Fawkes is not necessarily mocking him either. It's the difference between a statue and an effigy. It's all about intent.

The issue is you are borrowing traits that these cultures have been persecuted for having. Intent isn't relevant as much as the message it sends - "we can do this thing that we've persecuted you for, even while you still can't do it." It just insensitive and generally demonstrates a lack of awareness.

Dressing up like Santa is a whole different topic than dressing up like an African stereotype, because Santa is fictional and not something generally persecuted. Honestly, comparing black face to Santa or Guy Fawkes is an awful analogy on several fronts.

And of course, people in some communities would take issue with having a black Santa at the mall.

Edit: I don't think the people in the pictures are making fun of black people.

They don't have to be making fun of them. Mocking is only part of the problem. The other part is again taking a part of a culture, and only a part of it, and saying it is "okay when we do this despite years/decades/centuries of us persecuting you for being this way."

This issues of cultural appropriation and white (or dominant culture/ethnic group if you look, at say, Japan or India) privilege would be non-issues in a post racism world, but we aren't there yet. Sadly, we never be as a society.
 
The issue is you are borrowing traits that these cultures have been persecuted for having. Intent isn't relevant as much as the message it sends - "we can do this thing that we've persecuted you for, even while you still can't do it." It just insensitive and generally demonstrates a lack of awareness.

Dressing up like Santa is a whole different topic than dressing up like an African stereotype, because Santa is fictional and not something generally persecuted. Honestly, comparing black face to Santa or Guy Fawkes is an awful analogy on several fronts.

And of course, people in some communities would take issue with having a black Santa at the mall.

They don't have to be making fun of them. Mocking is only part of the problem. The other part is again taking a part of a culture, and only a part of it, and saying it is "okay when we do this despite years/decades/centuries of us persecuting you for being this way."

This issues of cultural appropriation and white (or dominant culture/ethnic group if you look, at say, Japan or India) privilege would be non-issues in a post racism world, but we aren't there yet. Sadly, we never be as a society.

I don't understand why it's a problem if it's not done for the purpose of mocking or belittling. They're not saying "we can look like this but you can't". They're saying "it's ok to look like this". What's the problem? I get that people were identified and persecuted by certain traits in history (although, not nearly as much the people alive today as people who are all long since dead). But why does that make it bad to put a certain skin color on yourself now? There's no double standard, the people doing this are (presumably), NOT people who would persecute others for having those traits. And if they were, then it's not to be taken in the same light.

Ok, hypothetical scenario here. Imagine there's a black lives matter protest going on in the streets - with banners and chants and the whole 9 yards speaking out against some sort of police brutality event. So a hypothetical white guy puts black makeup on and goes out to join in the protest out of solidarity.

What's the problem?
 
I completely agree that you can be offensive by dressing up as someone else. But you can also be celebratory by doing so. Dressing like Santa is not mocking Santa. Dressing like Guy Fawkes is not necessarily mocking him either. It's the difference between a statue and an effigy. It's all about intent.

I understand the intention is not there to offend or mock. Similar to black Pete. But it does come across as very offensive.

Like if you make jokes about someone being fat or having being bald etc. some might not be offended because you know them very well, but it is a very thin line.
 
I understand the intention is not there to offend or mock. Similar to black Pete. But it does come across as very offensive.

Like if you make jokes about someone being fat or having being bald etc. some might not be offended because you know them very well, but it is a very thin line.

To you perhaps, to a guy like me that typically gets seen as black, no it's not offensive and me trying to dictate my constructivism world view because I'm American on their said culture would be pretty dumb on my part. One shows I don't understand them and think my world view should be theirs, and two I clearly am not taking the time to respect their culture since they in no way are disrespecting mine.
 
I don't think that's necessarily true at all, but there is a strongly thriving culture of humour in western society based on belittlement or misfortune.

Sometimes it's funny:

https://imgur.com/r/nononono/mnXYrQh

Sometimes not:

.

I don't think he (or any thinking person) would ever say laughing at the misfortunes and pain of children make good jokes. There are exceptions to the rule I think, children being one, sick / suffering innocent people another one.

But 99.99% of great stand up and comedy in general is fueled by mocking someone other people. And when it's self-deprecating kind of humour (Louis CK) the people laughing are laughing at his expense. The difference is that in his case, he's the one delivering the jokes about his "misfortunes", which makes it even funnier IMO.

I'd consider mocking and laughing at children being hit in the face just a pathology. Or maybe some other kids find the video you posted funny... I don't know because I'm not a kid anymore. ^^
 
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I understand the intention is not there to offend or mock. Similar to black Pete. But it does come across as very offensive.

Like if you make jokes about someone being fat or having being bald etc. some might not be offended because you know them very well, but it is a very thin line.
But no one is making jokes. They’re celebrating him.

How do you think the issue would play out if all the white people decided to ditch the blackface and begin identifying Black Pete as a white person instead so they don’t offend anyone when they dress up as him? Would they welcome it or would the Dutch black community feel the character was white washed?
 
The issue of Black Pete in the Netherlands is an exception that proves the rule. The act of black facing in the past was intended to portray black people as a caricature; stupid, clownish, without grace and unable to be successful in modern (read, white) society.

Sure, this is meant as a joke, but let’s look at it as a black person. Living in the United states, you are very much in the minority and the only real way you are represented is as a caricature. There is no mention of all the things African Americans did to help the advancement of this country. Over time, you come to think that this is offensive, especially at a time when African Americans are battling what they see (and so do I) as institutional and cultural racism.

Turning up to a Black Lives Matter protest as a black-faced white person is the height of white privelige. It’s not for me as a white person to claim that I don’t mean any offense when I’d be wearing the exact thing that’s been used by white people to mock black people for generations. Its not for any white person to decide what’s offensive for other races.
 
Turning up to a Black Lives Matter protest as a black-faced white person is the height of white privelige. It’s not for me as a white person to claim that I don’t mean any offense when I’d be wearing the exact thing that’s been used by white people to mock black people for generations. Its not for any white person to decide what’s offensive for other races.

People get offended by all kinds of things whether it makes sense or not. There's no possibility of deciding what someone else can get offended by, they'll do it whether you want them to or not.

The question was not whether anyone would get offended - someone always gets offended, by anything. The question was what's the problem? Why is it wrong for someone to put on black face out of solidarity? Why is that white privilege? Surely you're claiming that it is exactly NOT white privilege to do so out of concern for offense to others right?

It is your place to decide whether you were intending offense. You can't control whether someone else will be offended by it, but you know your intent.

Once again, if someone wants to put on black face to join a black lives matter protest in solidarity with their fellow man... what on earth is the problem with that? Why should anyone take offense? It's not belittling, it's not mocking, it's not a caricature, it's not making yourself a clown, it's a celebration.
 
Once again, if someone wants to put on black face to join a black lives matter protest in solidarity with their fellow man... what on earth is the problem with that? Why should anyone take offense? It's not belittling, it's not mocking, it's not a caricature, it's not making yourself a clown, it's a celebration.
I think it betrays a misunderstanding of human nature to expect that such a gesture would be widely welcomed and not seen as an attempt to mock. Why aren't more people doing this? Why isn't anyone doing this?
 
I think it betrays a misunderstanding of human nature to expect that such a gesture would be widely welcomed and not seen as an attempt to mock. Why aren't more people doing this? Why isn't anyone doing this?

Oh no, I understand precisely what would happen to someone who did that. My guess is that they would be beaten... badly. My question is why that kind of response should be expected or considered even remotely appropriate. What is the problem? That's the fundamental question.

I'm not saying that nobody would be offended, or that people would welcome it, or that nobody would think it was an attempt to mock. I'm saying what's the problem?

XkwQPHj.gif
 
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