White Privilege

[PeterJB]

Persians and other central Asians tend not to "look" white so they can't receive white privilege, and since most of them are Muslim that becomes their new racial classification because logic. Generally speaking "white" people can be defined as anyone with genetic origins from pretty much all of Europe sans Turkey. But again, most people don't think that hard about whether that is actually the case or if you simply look like someone that does.

 

[twitcher]

Persians and other central Asians tend not to "look" white so they can't receive white privilege, and since most of them are Muslim that becomes their new racial classification because logic. Generally speaking "white" people can be defined as anyone with genetic origins from pretty much all of Europe sans Turkey. But again, most people don't think that hard about whether that is actually the case or if you simply look like someone that does.

Hmm, I would have to disagree with you that Persians don't look white. Do a google image search for "Persian People", and focus on the images where people aren't wearing traditional attire. Most of those people look pretty "white" to me (especially some of the fashion model pics).

Remember this photo from National Geographic?
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She doesn't look "white" to you?


I think this maybe brings up another interesting aspect of defining someone as white. Does the context in which a white person is viewed, have any effect on how white they are.

This is Gad Saad, a Lebanese Jew, now he's a prof at Concordia in Montreal.
%5BURL=http://s1069.photobucket.com/user/Twitcher_6/media/IMG_0739_zpsuqqcxmqf.png.html][/URL]
Not European, but he looks pretty white to me.

Now....what if instead of topless, exposing his sunburnt shoulders, he were wearing traditional Arabic attire, like what men in Saudi Arabia wear. Does he suddenly appear "less white"?

Let's go a step further. Does a white women who adopts Sharia Law, and only goes out in public fully covered, head to toe, even the eye slit - does she have white privilage? Or does her Islamic attire nullify her white privilage?

Edit: photos don't seem to be showing up...same as before. Maybe they'll appear later.

 

[PeterJB]

Neither of your examples look white because to look white you have to look European. Despite their skin tone there are other features that give away that they're not European (such as with black albinos). Doesn't really matter what they're wearing, and if they were covered head to toe in a burqa anyone could be under there. The assumption would be in that case that they're not white because apparently being white and being Muslim are mutually exclusive now.

The US 75% white, which is split between descendants of European immigrants and European settlers, identifying, or at least a reasoned guess at who is or isn't white is quite simple if 3 out of every 4 you meet will be white.

 

[Imari]

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She doesn't look "white" to you?

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Not European, but he looks pretty white to me.

Where the hell are you from that those people look "white" to you?

Perhaps as you get older and are more exposed to people you'll learn to identify people better by faces and skin colour. It's obviously not fool proof in these days of significant racial interbreeding, but once you learn you can totally pick at the very least people who are exemplars of their race/country's defining features. It's stereotyping, but it does work.

The guy is pretty stereotypically Jewish. The girl might pass as white with a different outfit and a face wash, it's hard to tell how dark her skin really is in that shot and the eyes WIDE OPEN thing makes it really tough to judge her features.

 

[PeterJB]

At best you could guess she's Romani, which is still European but not white.

 

[Danoff]

At best you could guess she's Romani, which is still European but not white.

"White" includes a ton of people though. The Vladimir Putin is "white" for example. I think being ethnically Jewish counts as non-white for some people and white for others. Just kinda depends on the person.

This is a dumb rabbit hole to go down though, and I understand why we're going down it - to expose how arbitrary it all is. But the bottom line is that it's not a hard and fast definition. Whoever is crying WP just applies that label to whoever they think looks like they might receive preference.

My wife was on a panel speaking at a university at one point and was basically told that her opinion on the school's affirmative action policy should be discounted because she is blonde. Try that one on for size. I believe she was told this by a white person. Blonde privilege.

 

[twitcher]

Wait, so Jewish people aren't white now?

Here's Dave Rubin interviewing James Damore, regarding being fired from Google for his now infamous diversity memo.

Both Dave and James are Jewish (by that I mean they have Jewish ancestry, not that they're practicing religious Jews)...James' nose kind of gives him away Rubin I know is Jewish because he's stated so many times.


You guys trying to tell me that neither of the people in the video are white?

And again, you guys are saying that to be white is to have European ancestry....but define that. Europe as defined by what boarders, in what century? European empires and middle eastern empires have fought over the Med for mellinia, intermingling with one another for thousands of years.


Who's the white European in these 4 photos?
1.
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2.
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3.
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4.
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Edit: what is up with the photos. Is it the website or photobuckets that giving me issues?

 

[Danoff]

Wait, so Jewish people aren't white now?

You're gonna get different answers on that depending on who you talk to. Some people will lump them in with white privilege. Others would not.

 

[twitcher]

You're gonna get different answers on that depending on who you talk to. Some people will lump them in with white privilege. Others would not.

More subjectivity, I love it!!

 

[PeterJB]

Again, it depends if people perceive them as being white. Most Jewish Hollywood celebrities are not full-blood Jews, and if they are their heritage usually comes from Eastern-European Jews who fled Europe because of the Holocaust. Full-blood Israeli Jews look quite distinct from "mixed-race" white American Jews.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Wait, so Jewish people aren't white now?

That's a pointless discussion, Jews come from many racial backgrounds as do Christianicals, Muslamicals, Buddlamicals and Jedi-amicals.

I know you "didn't have time" to look over the sources but I linked one of the most important ones for you. Do you think any of the effects discussed therein exist for anyone, and do you think they're more likely to exist for non-"whites"?

 

[twitcher]

That's a pointless discussion, Jews come from many racial backgrounds as do Christianicals, Muslamicals, Buddlamicals and Jedi-amicals.

I know you "didn't have time" to look over the sources but I linked one of the most important ones for you. Do you think any of the effects discussed therein exist for anyone, and do you think they're more likely to exist for non-"whites"?

Actually Jewish can refer to both a racial group of people, or to the people who follow the religion. I don't know the technical terms to differentiate between the two.

Also, I'm just being honest that I haven't had time to read your sources, although I fully intend to. I'm at work right now, I can throw my thoughts down in a forum post and link some photos. But if I'm going to read someone's thesis that supposedly provides a foundation for WP, then I need to be in the right frame of mind to properly go through that...and I just haven't had the time. I'm hoping I'll be able to read through a lot of material on the weekend. That explain why I "haven't had the time" to read your sources in what you consider a timely fashion?

 

[Danoff]

Actually Jewish can refer to both a racial group of people, or to the people who follow the religion. I don't know the technical terms to differentiate between the two.

An Ethnic Jew (which breaks down into way more subgroups than I would possibly have realized), is someone with "Jewish" genetic heritage.

 

[Famine]

I think the error here is trying to objectively define who is white enough in order to say that they have white privilege.

The people who are white enough to have white privilege are whoever the kind of numbskull would actually use the term "white privilege" in all seriousness in order to try to invalidate someone else's opinion says they are. It defies objective and rational description, because it's patently a load of dung spewed by sixteenth-wits.

 

[SagarisGTB]

@twitcher Would you reject the claim that "good looking" guys are more popular with androphiles on the basis that "good looking" is subjective?

Race itself is both arbitrary and a social construct, but that doesn't mean it can't influence how people see you and what kind of prejudice your face will invoke. Most populations have a well established idea of what each "race" roughly looks like, by way of a set of socially defined facial structure/skin tone criteria. This perception of race certainly affected millions in the Jim Crow USA and apartheid South Africa, and, though clearly not as explicitly, it still does today in most of the world.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I think the error here is trying to objectively define who is white enough in order to say that they have white privilege.

The people who are white enough to have white privilege are whoever the kind of numbskull would actually use the term "white privilege" in all seriousness in order to try to invalidate someone else's opinion says they are. It defies objective and rational description, because it's patently a load of dung spewed by sixteenth-wits.

Interestingly this audit test suggests (in this specific example) that 'privilege' wasn't only conferred by 'whites'.

Do you think that any of the effects described in the 'invisible knapsack' are real?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Interestingly this audit test suggests (in this specific example) that 'privilege' wasn't only conferred by 'whites'.

Do you think that any of the effects described in the 'invisible knapsack' are real?

Frankly, I couldn't get past this part and it's where I stopped reading

Through work to bring materials from women's studies into the rest of the curriculum, I have often noticed men's unwillingness to grant that they are overprivileged,

 

[UKMikey]

Frankly, I couldn't get past this part and it's where I stopped reading

Sounds like the part where she says male people overlook male privilege may apply here.

I wonder when we'll get onto the concept of money privilege.

 

[McLaren]

Where the hell are you from that those people look "white" to you?

Perhaps as you get older and are more exposed to people you'll learn to identify people better by faces and skin colour. It's obviously not fool proof in these days of significant racial interbreeding, but once you learn you can totally pick at the very least people who are exemplars of their race/country's defining features. It's stereotyping, but it does work.

The guy is pretty stereotypically Jewish. The girl might pass as white with a different outfit and a face wash, it's hard to tell how dark her skin really is in that shot and the eyes WIDE OPEN thing makes it really tough to judge her features.

I think he has certain characteristics that would identify him as Middle Eastern, but based purely on skin color alone, I could see him easily being seen as an older white man here in the states. Reveal he's Jewish, and the belief strengthens due to our stereotype of Jews all being white men with big noses & payots.

We're an ignorance bunch though.

 

[Imari]

Sounds like the part where she says male people overlook male privilege may apply here.

I wonder when we'll get onto the concept of money privilege.

Bring on the money privilege, I say. Down with the Trumps. Once we deal with that perhaps we can find time for white "privilege", because it's damn sure a lot weaker than rich privilege.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Sounds like the part where she says male people overlook male privilege may apply here.

I wonder when we'll get onto the concept of money privilege.

Sounds like the part where "overprivileged" is a ridiculous term actually. That said, I did continue on and found the list of "Daily Effects of White Privilege" quite amusing, coming from my multi-cultural, egalitarian, Canadian perspective of course. I can't speak for what it's like to live anywhere else, but parts of the list are downright laughable and much of the rest is several decades out of date.

 

[Tina Branford]

Being someone whom is white and once lived presenting as a male I can say from experience that white male privilege is entirely situational at most. I have never experience white male privilege in my life and have been treated unfairly in the workplace and been denied promotions(even though I did great work) and lost over to female or Mexican employees that have been there less than me. I can only assume it to have been an affirmative action thing. As a man I was messed with more and people were more aggressive with me. After hrt(as a transwoman on female hormones and passing) people are generally friendlier I get less aggressive behavior etc.

Even being trans I really have to say that I don't agree with all the typical politics and beliefs the community holds. I'm generally fed up with the lgbt community too the slightest disagreement one may hold against them lands one a severe berating. Even when I'd just try and express my 'personal' experience the trans community would get on me saying that all people seen as white males have experienced significant privilege and that I "must not be understanding or REMEMBERING my past" correctly. Yeah well excuse me I think I am aware of my own experiences more than anyone.

The feminists and trans community attack like a swarm of locusts at the slightest differ in views being expressed and it kinda disappoints me in them and it's sad being trans myself and not liking most of my kind.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Being someone whom is white and once lived presenting as a male I can say from experience that white male privilege is entirely situational at most.

That's absolutely correct, I'm sure. The question is 'in what proportion of situations does that present itself?'.

 

[Tina Branford]

That's absolutely correct, I'm sure. The question is 'in what proportion of situations does that present itself?'.

The proportion is small. About the only thing I can think a white cismale will have more privilege is only in a situation where there is a racist, sexist white male small business owner that only hires within his kind. Being a small business owner most everything of his company is of his discretion. That's like seriously the only thing I can think of. Even different races of people or cisfemales can be prejudiced and own businesses and give privilege to women and their specific races respectively.. wherein in that situation they posses the privilege. After having gone through the Census wage statistics file available on a .gov site the pay wage gap argument is a fallacy as well. Hour per hour on a authority level to experience ratio basis regardless of gender, race or creed income does not change. The only thing contributing to the appearance of a wage gap is overall availability of employees to work longer hours and whether or not they will stay home with the kids(if they have them.) Since most women will take time off for children of their own volition (which is healthy for a child to have it's parent with them when young) the overall earnings of the year recorded for them seems lower but that only a result of time put in at work. Like I said earlier they are not making less per time put in they are just putting less time in overall to compensate for family obligations. If more men took the take care at home role when they had children there would be a overall earning gap for them too. Being one whom is guilty of having observing things what I should not, I have glanced at fellow coworkers paycheck stubs on payday and clearly seen equal hourly pay between coworkers of similar authority levels across the demographic spectrum.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The proportion is small. About the only thing I can think a white cismale will have more privilege is only in a situation where there is a racist, sexist white male small business owner that only hires within his kind. Being a small business owner most everything of his company is of his discretion. That's like seriously the only thing I can think of.

It sounds as if you're presenting situations specific to your own experience. Studies of 'white privelege' have demonstrated that it's not purely disbursed by white people and and that it isn't contained to small businesses.

As for gender pay gaps this is an interesting read. The point you make about home carers creating a natural gap is quite right. However, that doesn't take account of situations where women in equal work have demonstrably been paid less than men or the 'glass ceiling' effect.

 

[Tina Branford]

It sounds as if you're presenting situations specific to your own experience. Studies of 'white privelege' have demonstrated that it's not purely disbursed by white people and and that it isn't contained to small businesses.

As for gender pay gaps this is an interesting read. The point you make about home carers creating a natural gap is quite right. However, that doesn't take account of situations where women in equal work have demonstrably been paid less than men or the 'glass ceiling' effect.

Personal experience is a pretty important factor in shaping ones views on the world. I'm sure in some cases there are people favoring white people but it can happen with any race or gender depending on the branch and who is the HRM at work there. I'm not saying that there never 'was' white male privilege just that it's all but done away with in the modern era.

I feel bad that those women faced that discrimination though. In the 50's-mid 90's there was indeed a wage gap but it's been closed regardless of what far left people want to think.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I feel bad that those women faced that discrimination though. In the 50's-mid 90's there was indeed a wage gap but it's been closed regardless of what far left people want to think.

Closed but certainly not eradicated, and then only in some countries. I'm not sure what political leanings have to do with asserting the fact?

Personal experience is a pretty important factor in shaping ones views on the world. I'm sure in some cases there are people favoring white people but it can happen with any race or gender depending on the branch and who is the HRM at work there. I'm not saying that there never 'was' white male privilege just that it's all but done away with in the modern era.

Do you want to talk about 'white privilege' or 'male privilege'. The first is the point of this thread, I'm pretty sure there's another thread somewhere for the second.

Here's one simple recent experiment that demonstrates how unconscious actions define the idea of the 'backpack' that the thread is about.

 

[Tina Branford]

Closed but certainly not eradicated, and then only in some countries. I'm not sure what political leanings have to do with asserting the fact?



Do you want to talk about 'white privilege' or 'male privilege'. The first is the point of this thread, I'm pretty sure there's another thread somewhere for the second.

Here's one simple recent experiment that demonstrates how unconscious actions define the idea of the 'backpack' that the thread is about.

The wage gap is definitely eradicated in some countries like USA, or advanced first world nations.

If read that article before and it may apply to African decent people there and in some other nations but it's a non issue in america where I'm from. The African decent people that do face discrimination I feel for and I'm sure many do. It's just not a issue all have to face and I'm not going to feel guilty for what happened at the hands of my race 50 years ago.

America had a African, Irish, Arabian president so yeah no racism there and he served two terms. Australia has a lot of catching up to do.

 

[UKMikey]

Britain has had two women prime ministers so that must have put paid to our gender pay gap, right? I don't think it matters who's in government. Wage gaps still exist in the advanced first world nation I live in and you don't have to be far left to think so.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The wage gap is definitely eradicated in some countries like USA, or advanced first world nations.

If read that article before and it may apply to African decent people there and in some other nations but it's a non issue in america where I'm from.

You can say "black people", you know

Indeed the research was carried out in America, a sure sign that your adamance that such privilege is a 'non issue' there is strongly misplaced.