Who's at fault here?(End of race collision)

[AdamA998]

Genuinely not sure about this, quarter way through 9th lap I overtake a driver and did not expect that move by him and thought I was going quick enough for him to not be able to reach me. Have a look for yourselves and determine what's the case. I honestly don't know how I could have avoided that, he came in my view so suddenly and quickly not sure if I could react quickly enough. Here it is:

 

[Ginger yido]

I think their are a few factors here that lead me to say racing incident.

1st is you should have your raider on

Your in front before the braking leading into the corner, but brake heavy in compensation for the inside line (if you had the radar on you may have noticed that he had moved further over to the right of the track giving you the potential to take a better line)

When you brake early, He may think he’s already full cars length in front ( and to be fair he nearly was, but he could have givin a little more room)

And then it was a touch and you when on the kerb but I think you probably could have kept it going forward if you back out the gas a bit more.

I’d say it only your fault in that you shouldn’t have givin him the opportunity to pass you with that much extra speed going into the corner, but in turn he could have left a bit of a gap.

 

[HellzFire]

His fault. He turned in thinking youd yield or you werent there anymore.

 

[Huzar]

Look like he tuned in not knowing you are there.

 

[deviln3]

I think its his fault, you were holding your inside line in control, and he came over in to your racing line. He should have left you a bit more room. But it seemed like you gave him too much room and could have pushed for some late braking yourself.

Also I'm glad we're talking about racing incidents between players, rather than bad AI. Yay GT Sport!

 

[AdamA998]

I think their are a few factors here that lead me to say racing incident.

1st is you should have your raider on

Your in front before the braking leading into the corner, but brake heavy in compensation for the inside line (if you had the radar on you may have noticed that he had moved further over to the right of the track giving you the potential to take a better line)

When you brake early, He may think he’s already full cars length in front ( and to be fair he nearly was, but he could have givin a little more room)

And then it was a touch and you when on the kerb but I think you probably could have kept it going forward if you back out the gas a bit more.

I’d say it only your fault in that you shouldn’t have givin him the opportunity to pass you with that much extra speed going into the corner, but in turn he could have left a bit of a gap.

Thanks, I tried to brake progressively as opposed to harder braking so I wouldn't lose too much speed or end up making a twitchy turn to avoid collision. I knew he was right behind me or near me. I did not suspect he would try recovering the position instantly so it caught me off guard. Although I wonder how much a pedal upgrade would help, along with learning to take better learns and brake later, just needs more practice.

His fault. He turned in thinking youd yield or you werent there anymore.

Thanks for the input, I explained above what my mindset was going in, it is difficult being on the inside in that situation and trying to avoid a crash. Your name looks familiar , I may have seen you in a Z28 gaming video ....

Look like he tuned in not knowing you are there.

We talked about it, he knew I was there but he probably didn't expect me to brake then let off then brake, I was trying to be smooth but yeah need to learn to drive better on defense. I'm not that used to the 458, it has been a handful for me so far.

 

[deviln3]

We talked about it, he knew I was there but he probably didn't expect me to brake then let off then brake, I was trying to be smooth but yeah need to learn to drive better on defense. I'm not that used to the 458, it has been a handful for me so far.

If you had radar on, you could have braked way later and blocked him from turning in at the apex, given that you are ahead and holding the inside line in control (without bumping him of course), and it would force him to slow down just as much as you. Your exit speed would be way worst, so if someone was behind the two of you, you would be vulnerable in the next straight. Its also possible that he may go for the undercut in that situation.

 

[AdamA998]

If you had radar on, you could have braked way later and blocked him from turning in at the apex, given that you are ahead and holding the inside line in control (without bumping him of course), and it would force him to slow down just as much as you. Your exit speed would be way worst, so if someone was behind the two of you, you would be vulnerable in the next straight. Its also possible that he may go for the undercut in that situation.

Yeah I normally don't try that move but on that turn it is probably necessary as there's a lot of room to work with. I was cautious due to us being side by side, I think it would have caused an instant collision to be blamed on me.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I am the driver of the Porsche in this video, what the view that he is showing fails to show is that with him being so tight to the inside on the straight approaching the corner that he started braking so early on the straight that by the time we had reached the end of the straight and the turn in point for the corner he may have had at most his front bumper next to my back bumper due to the difference in speed and I figured he would realize that there was not room to make the pass and back off.


He did have a good run but I knew there was no way with his location on the track that he could hold that inside line and his speed and sure enough he because of his line was forced into braking early enough on the straight prior to corner entry that he was not able to complete the pass or even stay side by side before turn in. Some passes at high speed you can pull off and some you cannot and in my opinion it was a bad decision on the OP to try the pass he tried with his position on the track.

It was definitely a ballsy move by the OP and in no way did I intentionally make contact but with so many aggressive drivers making "forced" passes it conditions you to hold your line and position with perhaps to much gusto at times but that exact same situation I would do the same thing. There was not a clear car width passing lane without me moving over to allow him through.

We did run pretty hard for a few laps and had some fun nose to tail racing.

 

[eran0004]

The Porsche should have left some room on the inside. If you know that there is another car near you, but you don't see where, you should assume that it's next to you and give it enough room to stay on the track.

 

[jesQuick]

IMO it's the Porsche who's at fault. He drove into you. That's pretty clear. Sorry Porsche dude. Be more alert next time...

 

[VFOURMAX1]

The Porsche should have left some room on the inside. If you know that there is another car near you, but you don't see where, you should assume that it's next to you and give it enough room to stay on the track.

I saw he had a run and I did not try to block him but being the lead car I did not choose my position on the track randomly but with the purpose of controlling how the cars would be positioned at the end of the straight with relation to the corner entry. He had a choice pass on the inside and need to scrub off speed prior to approaching the corner because of needing to hold the inside line or pass on the outside and try to complete the pass the long way around.

As I figured he attempted the pass on the inside and I held my line as I knew he would have limited room and be pinched into scrubbing off major speed to be able to try to maintain that tight inside line. At the end of the straight and corner turn in point my car was at least 95% in the lead starting into the corner the contact was his front bumper and my rear bumper.

At the point of contact there was not enough of a lane approaching the corner apex that even using the full curbing would there have been enough room to complete the pass. .
I did not change lines to cut him off and my racing line remained fluid and on a constant arc until contact. I do not feel as being the leading car entering the corner that it is my responsibility to leave an open lane for a car to make a pass. If he had of been able to maintain his position beside me until corner turn in then yes I would be obligated to leave an open lane but in this situation that was not the case.

What is good though is I do not think either of us was intentionally trying to race dirty or play bulldozer. We both made a decision at race speed that did not work out. It is easier to play the video frame by frame to see what transpired but you do not have that luxury in the race.

IMO it's the Porsche who's at fault. He drove into you. That's pretty clear. Sorry Porsche dude. Be more alert next time...

I would agree IF he had of been further up beside me at initial turn in to the corner but his front bumper up beside my rear bumper does not give him the right if there is not a clear lane to the apex without the lead car needing to alter the trajectory of their racing line which in this situation did not exist.

 

[jesQuick]

I saw he had a run and I did not try to block him but being the lead car I did not choose my position on the track randomly but with the purpose of controlling how the cars would be positioned at the end of the straight with relation to the corner entry. He had a choice pass on the inside and need to scrub off speed prior to approaching the corner because of needing to hold the inside line or pass on the outside and try to complete the pass the long way around.

As I figured he attempted the pass on the inside and I held my line as I knew he would have limited room and be pinched into scrubbing off major speed to be able to try to maintain that tight inside line. At the end of the straight and corner turn in point my car was at least 95% in the lead starting into the corner the contact was his front bumper and my rear bumper.

At the point of contact there was not enough of a lane approaching the corner apex that even using the full curbing would there have been enough room to complete the pass. .
I did not change lines to cut him off and my racing line remained fluid and on a constant arc until contact. I do not feel as being the leading car entering the corner that it is my responsibility to leave an open lane for a car to make a pass. If he had of been able to maintain his position beside me until corner turn in then yes I would be obligated to leave an open lane but in this situation that was not the case.

What is good though is I do not think either of us was intentionally trying to race dirty or play bulldozer. We both made a decision at race speed that did not work out. It is easier to play the video frame by frame to see what transpired but you do not have that luxury.



I would agree IF he had of been further up beside me at initial turn in to the corner but his front bumper up beside my rear bumper does not give him the right if there is not a clear lane to the apex without the lead car needing to alter the trajectory of their racing line which in this situation did not exist.

I'm no racing expert, so I will leave with this. You knew he was there, yet you still hold 'your' line and crash him.
Was it your right to chose that line? Maybe, hard to know from the vid, but you took the turn knowing he was there. That makes it your fault (wether or not you had the 'right' to do so).
You should have anticipated it and waited till the next corner where you'd have the advantage of a better angle and more speed.
Again, just MO. No h8 towards anyone. **** happens. Live and learn

 

[rono_thomas]

@AdamA998 can you provide a chase cam view?

Not enough footage to be able to make a decision here.

 

[stevenhiggster]

I saw he had a run and I did not try to block him but being the lead car I did not choose my position on the track randomly but with the purpose of controlling how the cars would be positioned at the end of the straight with relation to the corner entry. He had a choice pass on the inside and need to scrub off speed prior to approaching the corner because of needing to hold the inside line or pass on the outside and try to complete the pass the long way around.

As I figured he attempted the pass on the inside and I held my line as I knew he would have limited room and be pinched into scrubbing off major speed to be able to try to maintain that tight inside line. At the end of the straight and corner turn in point my car was at least 95% in the lead starting into the corner the contact was his front bumper and my rear bumper.

At the point of contact there was not enough of a lane approaching the corner apex that even using the full curbing would there have been enough room to complete the pass. .
I did not change lines to cut him off and my racing line remained fluid and on a constant arc until contact. I do not feel as being the leading car entering the corner that it is my responsibility to leave an open lane for a car to make a pass. If he had of been able to maintain his position beside me until corner turn in then yes I would be obligated to leave an open lane but in this situation that was not the case.

What is good though is I do not think either of us was intentionally trying to race dirty or play bulldozer. We both made a decision at race speed that did not work out. It is easier to play the video frame by frame to see what transpired but you do not have that luxury in the race.



I would agree IF he had of been further up beside me at initial turn in to the corner but his front bumper up beside my rear bumper does not give him the right if there is not a clear lane to the apex without the lead car needing to alter the trajectory of their racing line which in this situation did not exist.

I'm afraid in this situation VFOURMAX1 it was your fault. You turned in on him. You knew he was there and tried a block and clipped his front corner. I know people keep saying the car in front can be where it wants but that is only true if the car behind is not along side you (doesn't matter if it's just his front bumper), then you must leave space. In this case you didn't. At the end of the day, if the game didn't give you a penalty then it didn't deem it dirty or dangerous. Likely would just have been chalked up as a racing incident irl. Tin top racing is a contact sport.

 

[rono_thomas]

In this case you didn't.

We dont know how far alongside the OP is yet, not defending the Porsche, but neither are we in a position to defend the OP yet.

Gut feeling is that the OP is far enough alongside but its unfair to judge until different views have been seen.

I would be very wary of the following scenario:

B. Attacker less than half-way alongside

In this case, the attacker has only their front wing alongside the defender’s rear wheel. The defender has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the attacker.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/amp/

 

[stevenhiggster]

We dont know how far alongside the OP is yet, not defending the Porsche, but neither are we in a position to defend the OP yet.

Gut feeling is that the OP is far enough alongside but its unfair to judge until different views have been seen.

I would be very wary of the following scenario:

B. Attacker less than half-way alongside

In this case, the attacker has only their front wing alongside the defender’s rear wheel. The defender has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the attacker.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/amp/

Good point, I did amend my post to say it's probably just a racing incident anyway.
Looking from OP's view again though he had more than just a bumper along side. Would need to see it from Vfourmax's view.
A lot if this stems from the game not giving us enough warning of where cars are along side us, the radar is too hard to see in all views except bumper and the silly little red dot on the centre of the hud is as much use as a chocolate teapot. We need a proper indication on the side of the screen like there is in Assetto Corsa. And a virtual mirror in every view. But that's all for another thread lol.

 

[Revver00]

His fault, as you do not have a hyperspace button to suddenly disappear when he expects you to get out of his way. He should have left more room for you.

 

[eran0004]

I saw he had a run and I did not try to block him but being the lead car I did not choose my position on the track randomly but with the purpose of controlling how the cars would be positioned at the end of the straight with relation to the corner entry. He had a choice pass on the inside and need to scrub off speed prior to approaching the corner because of needing to hold the inside line or pass on the outside and try to complete the pass the long way around.

As I figured he attempted the pass on the inside and I held my line as I knew he would have limited room and be pinched into scrubbing off major speed to be able to try to maintain that tight inside line. At the end of the straight and corner turn in point my car was at least 95% in the lead starting into the corner the contact was his front bumper and my rear bumper.

At the point of contact there was not enough of a lane approaching the corner apex that even using the full curbing would there have been enough room to complete the pass. .
I did not change lines to cut him off and my racing line remained fluid and on a constant arc until contact. I do not feel as being the leading car entering the corner that it is my responsibility to leave an open lane for a car to make a pass. If he had of been able to maintain his position beside me until corner turn in then yes I would be obligated to leave an open lane but in this situation that was not the case.

What is good though is I do not think either of us was intentionally trying to race dirty or play bulldozer. We both made a decision at race speed that did not work out. It is easier to play the video frame by frame to see what transpired but you do not have that luxury in the race.

It's a substantial overlap, so you should have left him enough room to stay on the track. Furthermore, he was actually ahead of you on the straight, so in this situation it's you overtaking him.

 

[rono_thomas]

Lacking any other footage it seems @VFOURMAX1 you need to revaluate how you think you did not cause the collision, see the following screen grabs.

It was definitely a ballsy move by the OP and in no way did I intentionally make contact but with so many aggressive drivers making "forced" passes it conditions you to hold your line and position with perhaps to much gusto at times but that exact same situation I would do the same thing. There was not a clear car width passing lane without me moving over to allow him through.

There is plenty of tarmac to run two wide through this section.

The OP is the one that held his line the screen grabs below will show you this.

This is a very fast corner and the entry requires very little speed scrubbing to make the apex.

At the point of contact there was not enough of a lane approaching the corner apex that even using the full curbing would there have been enough room to complete the pass. .

He did not need to complete the pass he was already alongside, he does not need to complete it this corner either, but its clear that you do not have ownership of the racing line to arrow straight for the apex.

The OP is in front.

You have to allow racing room its more than a bumper.

You then crowd him off the track.

Just like Vettel at Singapore.

 

[cleanLX]

It's a substantial overlap, so you should have left him enough room to stay on the track. Furthermore, he was actually ahead of you on the straight, so in this situation it's you overtaking him.

100%.
Additionally, when 2 cars are side by side entering a corner, the one on the preferred racing line no longer owns that line, you gotta get through side by side, or, cut back and get the power down.

Edit
Rono posted while I was typing... full agreement with Rono and Eran.

 

[TheGeologist]

I am the driver of the Porsche in this video

I've been waiting for this to happen on one of these "who is at fault posts". Lol

 

[TheGeologist]

I'm inclined to agree with rono_thomas, there is plenty of room to go two wide there. The Porsche needs to give OP the lane as the upcoming corner is a legitimate passing zone. Furthermore, OP was alongside the Porsche for several seconds and had more than just a bumper alongside him during that time.

A couple of notes to consider for the OP

1. I understand the upcoming corner is a left-hander, but with the run you had, it may have been possible to complete the pass on the right. You crossed the white line by going on the left side and may have lost some momentum by squeezing yourself.

2. When posting views, please use the chase view and show it for all cars involved.

Cheers!

 

[racingchamp30]

You did a clean pass. He did a dirty pass where he punted you and spun you out. More than enough room for both of you in the turn.

 

[AdamA998]

@VFOURMAX1

Mate, I had more speed on the straight, wouldn't consider it a ''ballsy' pass....

@AdamA998 can you provide a chase cam view?

Not enough footage to be able to make a decision here.

I don't unfortunately, only saved via the share button.

I'm inclined to agree with rono_thomas, there is plenty of room to go two wide there. The Porsche needs to give OP the lane as the upcoming corner is a legitimate passing zone. Furthermore, OP was alongside the Porsche for several seconds and had more than just a bumper alongside him during that time.

A couple of notes to consider for the OP

1. I understand the upcoming corner is a left-hander, but with the run you had, it may have been possible to complete the pass on the right. You crossed the white line by going on the left side and may have lost some momentum by squeezing yourself.

2. When posting views, please use the chase view and show it for all cars involved.

Cheers!

Thanks, yes I am aware of that but I was worried we were still relatively close and trying to go wide and back inside would cause a collision. So I tried the safest possible line and the race was mostly casual for the most part so didn't expect a more aggressive move.

I've been waiting for this to happen on one of these "who is at fault posts". Lol

Well I was upset initially about it and it turned out he was a member here(via psn messaging ), I knew beforehand.

 

[danthespam]

OP had every right there to brake later and run you out wide if he was so inclined, would’ve been a bit mean and he didn’t in the end anyway, @VFOURMAX1 he actually gave you a lot of respect and room by braking early and trying to keep tight to the apex. He had greater speed, greater track position and was alongside clearly more than a bumper. I’m afraid at that point you have to try and hang with it outside or back off and undercut him at the exit.

 

[Shottah072]

I think u both made mistakes that led to this incident.

First of all OP please turn on your radar. Much better spacial awareness with it wich could have come in hand in this situation.

OP you could have had his spot but you needed to use more of the space available in the run up to the corner. You position yourself to much to the inside compromising your turn in allowing VFOURMAX1 to brake much later and less hard wich gets him back in front of u. If u went more to the right just leaving enough space for VFOURMAX1 you could have entered the corner much faster and would have controlled the moment of turn in as VFOURMAX1 then could only turn in after you did or he would bump himself off of your side.

As for VFOURMAX1 he could have taken a wider entry to that corner as there was a car on the inside. You can go a bit wide on entry and still have a good exit on this corner and OP probably would not be able to make his pass because of his tight entry compromising his speed.

If i really had to blame someone i think VFOURMAX1 is most at fault for cutting across. But all in all i would call this a race incident though.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I made my judgement during the race based on pretty much the view that you posted. At the point of this shot if you look at the orientation of both cars looking towards the APEX of the corner and neither car changes lines then it is apparent the line I as the outside car will intersect the apex at just about the white line on the outside of the blue pavement.
We are still on the straight here and the OP has been on the brakes for a good bit already and our speed difference is pretty high already as I am still carrying full straight line speed (the op shows to still be running at 119 mph and he has been on the brakes for a while in this photo) and have not needed to start braking at all at this point unlike the op at this point.

You have to allow racing room its more than a bumper.

If you compare the two photos using the beginning of the curbing as a reference above you can see the short distance traveled on track and speeds of over 120 mph and the difference in relation to how out cars are positioned between photo 1 and photo 2 to give an indication to the speed difference between the two cars.

In the second photo it is pretty obvious his front bumper is just up to the left side of my rear bumper and contact is being made..

Also in the second photo the contact appears to have already started to turn my car pushing the rear towards the outside of the track and even with the added turning force from the contact I am still showing the same basic trajectory towards white line on the outside of the blue pavement away from the curbing.

B. Attacker less than half-way alongside

In this case, the attacker has only their front wing alongside the defender’s rear wheel. The defender has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the attacker.

The above diagram depicts exactly the circumstance I feel that we had. In that diagram it does not really make any difference where the car was on the straight but where and how the cars are positioned at the end of the straight and the start of the corner. Where this incident occurred is not a slow speed corner with a heavy braking point and turn in but a high speed corner where trajectory and momentum are important aspects.

With the line that the op had to take then he had to brake fairly hard and therefore losing his momentum to maintain that inside line at the speeds we were traveling. As I had stated in an earlier post my car positioning on the straight was done with the exact intent of if the op chose that line to force that exact scenario giving me back the better momentum required to maintain the position on track.

I still stand by that the pictures do indicate that the op by taking the line and the positioning on the track at that point he had to take to attempt the pass in that location he could not maintain the speed and momentum that was required to be able to complete all facets of the passing process or maintain his position of being along side entering the corner granting the rights for a racing lane.

If he had of kept his front bumper up alongside at least my rear wheel but preferably my door then I would have made sure he had plenty of room like I did on the straight where he was given room to attempt the overtake . As the lead car I do not feel obligated to give the trailing car a lane.

I try to race clean, I am subject to mistakes or judgement calls like everyone else. I have learned through the last month racing online a certain level of aggressive behavior is present and taking a complete passive approach will result in being pushed around all over the track.
I do now hold my line or not just give way because of aggressive attempts of overtakes. I have learned that online races are what they are to a certain degree.

Some will not agree with my reasoning or my decision, some will. It was a judgement call made at full speed in the heat of a racing battle, v

 

[AdamA998]

@VFOURMAX1

As I told you in our exchange, I think you went in with too much speed early in that corner and had to slam on the brakes and I don't share your narrative that your maneuver was controlled. You would have lost momentum or went into the grass and you're lucky I was there to straighten you out. Anyone can see from the video that if we didn't collide, you would slammed the brakes or snap steered to the right and lost plenty of momentum. If you somehow managed that pass without colliding with me and didn't snap steer to the right you would have gone right into the grass and rails. You colliding with me is the only factor that enabled you to correct yourself there. If you had tried that overtake mid way through the corner(where you can start gaining momentum and exiting with higher speed), it would have been clean and worked. But, likely I would have more momentum and could had possibly finished the race in front of you after that point.

 

[rono_thomas]

I made my judgement during the race based on pretty much the view that you posted. At the point of this shot if you look at the orientation of both cars looking towards the APEX of the corner and neither car changes lines then it is apparent the line I as the outside car will intersect the apex at just about the white line on the outside of the blue pavement.
We are still on the straight here and the OP has been on the brakes for a good bit already and our speed difference is pretty high already as I am still carrying full straight line speed (the op shows to still be running at 119 mph and he has been on the brakes for a while in this photo) and have not needed to start braking at all at this point unlike the op at this point.

If you compare the two photos using the beginning of the curbing as a reference above you can see the short distance traveled on track and speeds of over 120 mph and the difference in relation to how out cars are positioned between photo 1 and photo 2 to give an indication to the speed difference between the two cars.

In the second photo it is pretty obvious his front bumper is just up to the left side of my rear bumper and contact is being made..

Also in the second photo the contact appears to have already started to turn my car pushing the rear towards the outside of the track and even with the added turning force from the contact I am still showing the same basic trajectory towards white line on the outside of the blue pavement away from the curbing.



The above diagram depicts exactly the circumstance I feel that we had. In that diagram it does not really make any difference where the car was on the straight but where and how the cars are positioned at the end of the straight and the start of the corner. Where this incident occurred is not a slow speed corner with a heavy braking point and turn in but a high speed corner where trajectory and momentum are important aspects.

With the line that the op had to take then he had to brake fairly hard and therefore losing his momentum to maintain that inside line at the speeds we were traveling. As I had stated in an earlier post my car positioning on the straight was done with the exact intent of if the op chose that line to force that exact scenario giving me back the better momentum required to maintain the position on track.

I still stand by that the pictures do indicate that the op by taking the line and the positioning on the track at that point he had to take to attempt the pass in that location he could not maintain the speed and momentum that was required to be able to complete all facets of the passing process or maintain his position of being along side entering the corner granting the rights for a racing lane.

If he had of kept his front bumper up alongside at least my rear wheel but preferably my door then I would have made sure he had plenty of room like I did on the straight where he was given room to attempt the overtake . As the lead car I do not feel obligated to give the trailing car a lane.

I try to race clean, I am subject to mistakes or judgement calls like everyone else. I have learned through the last month racing online a certain level of aggressive behavior is present and taking a complete passive approach will result in being pushed around all over the track.
I do now hold my line or not just give way because of aggressive attempts of overtakes. I have learned that online races are what they are to a certain degree.

Some will not agree with my reasoning or my decision, some will. It was a judgement call made at full speed in the heat of a racing battle, v

You’ve got it wrong, you dont have ownership to dive for the apex. If the OP had been later on the brakes as he has room to do there would have been no confusion, as it stands your gamble didn’t pay off, and yes it was a gamble, your talking to a fellow sim racer and we all know what has been attempted here.

You’ve tried to go later on the brakes and then cut in front for the apex, you’ve misjudged it and caused a collision.

Had it been me you were racing I would have left my braking as late as possible and run you wide, thats the only thing the OP had done wrong is be too polite.