Why does Gran Turismo not have updated cars like Forza?
- Thread starter iClique.com
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- Ulricehamn
And before that they where owned by Ford... so they have been other things than Swedish for a while. We still think of them as Swedish here though. And the cars are build here, in China and in the States.
It's like Jaguar, that now is Indian, Opel that now is French, Chrysler that now is partly Italian etc etc
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Yup, makes me funny when people talk about All American MOPAR when Chrysler technically is owned by and profits the Italians(and now the French with Stellantis, and previously the Germans with Diamler-Benz)
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- SpacedustDaddy
And Mini(MINI) German. By PD standards.
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- ScottPuss20
- CheetahsMeow
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- SpacedustDaddy
Could be any reason. Like the 911 RSR. That is the GTE Le Mans racer. It's the top GT race car. We got that in the game. Could be the reason we didn't get the GT3 R. Both cars were then new in the same year. So, why not the top GT Ferrari? Would make sense to debut the 488 GTE and/or GT3.
Gr.3 cars have been added throughout GT Sport. Even multiple cars from the same brand. The 488 Pista could have been modelled and the GTE car added. Instead(I don't know), we got the 365GTB4 '71.
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How is the quality of Volvo now? The S60 is sort of a dream car of mine. If only it wasn't so big..
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- Ulricehamn
The quality is still good compared to competitors but it's not the bullet proof thing it was before.
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Scaff
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Did I say they weren't? Oh, are you trying to make a point because I'm from the UK?
Nah, that's not going to do the job, I've worked in the Motor Industry long enough to know who's sold what to who and how the British car industry imploded and got sold off.
You want an interesting story, that would be how BMW stiffed VAG over the Rolls Royce brand!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Motors
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- Ridley-X4
Agreed.
Also, regarding the 488, I find it generally interesting that the PS3-era games had both the F430 and F430 Scuderia, so I also wonder if they're waiting for the 488 Pista or what. I wouldn't mind getting both the normal 488 and the 488 Pista, nor would I mind just getting the former. Either way, I think there are plenty of Ferrari models both new and old that could and should come to GT, like the F12berlinetta. Frankly, I think the Roma is more of a luxury car than a sports car, so I could go without it. I also really hope not only the two F430s come back, but also the SP1. The 360 would be great, too - but that's before we get into much older models, as I also really like Pininfarina's handiwork from the decades.
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With the growing number of competing simulators on the market, it is possible that it will become increasingly difficult for PD to obtain licensing for new racing cars and modern cars.
The Forza franchise, it seems, monopolizes modern hypercars from the big brands. The Assetto Corsa along with the SRO may have priority for new GT3 cars. The RaceRoom game can have the exclusivity of vintage cars from the 90s and Class 1 of the DTM league, anyway.
At this rate, the day will come when PD will settle for just more modest street cars, vintage cars, authored cars (VGT) and fictional racing cars.
I have always defended the idea of the PD signing commercial agreements with the main sports leagues. For example, I think it was a missed opportunity that Sony didn't negotiate the GT Challenge naming rights with SRO. This could make it easier to add new world circuits and new GT3 cars in GTS and GT7.
In that sense, until today I don't understand why PD didn't close a deal with the WEC, since PD had an e-sports deal with the FIA.
There will come a day when some competing franchises will get Super GT and Super Formula exclusivity and PD will not even be able to add the Japanese cars in their future games.
The Forza franchise, it seems, monopolizes modern hypercars from the big brands. The Assetto Corsa along with the SRO may have priority for new GT3 cars. The RaceRoom game can have the exclusivity of vintage cars from the 90s and Class 1 of the DTM league, anyway.
At this rate, the day will come when PD will settle for just more modest street cars, vintage cars, authored cars (VGT) and fictional racing cars.
I have always defended the idea of the PD signing commercial agreements with the main sports leagues. For example, I think it was a missed opportunity that Sony didn't negotiate the GT Challenge naming rights with SRO. This could make it easier to add new world circuits and new GT3 cars in GTS and GT7.
In that sense, until today I don't understand why PD didn't close a deal with the WEC, since PD had an e-sports deal with the FIA.
There will come a day when some competing franchises will get Super GT and Super Formula exclusivity and PD will not even be able to add the Japanese cars in their future games.
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- Codemasters (EA)
- PJTierney
Motorsport Games bought the exclusive rights in 2021.
Whether they'll actually make a game with that license is another matter entirely.
SestoScudo
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- Decepticon 47
I hate exclusive licences
HyperSpeeder
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Forza has IMSA deal and the most that came from it was a few vintage IMSA GT cars... which most people don't race anyway.
It goes a lot deeper. When FM7 added the Tomica Skyline (with wrong sound! as usual), they soon had to remove the branding. Why? Tomica makes model cars. And Hot Wheels, a competing brand, happens to have a commercial deal with Forza. Once Hot Wheels cars were added to FM7 (an update which 99% of people hated BTW), Tomica miraculously reappeared on the Skyline's panels.
To me, it's a few things:
- More difficult traveling due to pandemic (Forza has 1 studio in America and 1 in Europe)
- Less people doing the job for PD (Forza outsources like crazy to cheap Vietnamese CAD studios, which is why quality ranges from excellent to terrible)
- Less quality control on Forza's part (rarely do I see bugged cars in GT, whereas in Forza you always stumble upon a badly made one)
- Less physics detail required (in Forza the 919 is full time AWD, a joke, whereas in GT and other games it's correctly simulated)
- Possible political difficulties due to certain brands being owned by the Chinese, who are direct rivals of the Japanese
If all you want is content, Forza is the game for you. But there are still people who want something more, who want cars done right. Those go to more sim oriented games, with the entry level being GT.
When it comes to licensing, I think PD is in a relatively good position. They have Toyota, which everyone fanwanks over, and they have Japanese motorsport, which, although niche, is still seen as kind of a holy grail of motorsport where competition is still genuine with active motorsport development. Forza seems to be trying to cover the American motorsport, but, although things have changed in recent years, Indycar is still a shadow of what CART was (genuine threat to F1) and NASCAR is uninteresting to most people outside the American Midwest, with even F1 making strides in claiming popularity among the more "globalized" Americans.
What's important to each brand is that they have their niche. But neither GT, nor Forza will be the one stop shop for anything endurance related. Unfortunately, this cancer called Motorsport Games exists.
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- GBalao888
- GBalao888
To me I think this all boils down to the possible theories why Polyphony may be behind in terms of the variety of cars compared to other games:
Gran Turismo sort of has a partnership with Hot Wheels, except it's just limited to their toy cars and not in any form of in-game content such as their concept cars.
Apparently they're also the publishers of rFactor 2, I guess?
jalopnik.com
www.racedepartment.com
Limited manpower - Polyphony has around 250 employees, and I'm not sure how many of them work in the car modeling department. That being said, a single car built from scratch, with the complete process, will take six months, modeled by a single person, before it's implemented in the game, but with outsourced modeling work, this can be halved to three months. As to how many firms they're outsourcing is still unknown at this stage.
While sourcing cars, most of the car modeling team will be traveling around the world in search for certain cars that they want to add to the game.
Ever since they introduced premium quality cars - even more than in GT Sport, they've always obsessive pursued attention to detail in that regard, everything from the car design to their sounds and even the physics. At this point, we have roughly 430 cars in GT7 (including the three cars from the upcoming update as of writing), this number being roughly half of what's in Forza Motorsport 7.
Speaking of the complete process, I think it's this:
Don't get me wrong, but Turn Ten/Playground have also been plagued with poor decision making as well, such as leaving out older models from a car's specific model family series (latest or fastest rule).
Another is that the focus on the cars featured in the more modern Gran Turismo titles have shifted from featuring everyday vehicles (from GT1 to GT4) to dream vehicles from throughout the ages.
Budget/Licensing - Having sold nearly 80 to 90 million copies throughout the Gran Turismo series' lifespan, it's expected that Polyphony, and in part, Sony Interactive Entertainment, are sitting on perhaps an enormous amount of money that can help them acquire all the manpower, resources and opportunities they need to increase their production of cars, tracks and the overall quality of the game. And ironically, Gran Turismo is Playstation's best-selling franchise. But then again, no developer's funding is ever unlimited.
It seems that, even with all that money, Polyphony and Sony aren't using most of it to their advantage to license a lot of things, from manufacturers to multiple types of racing series (so far, GT7 has licensed race cars from DTM, FIA WEC, IMSA, International GT Open and Super GT), and with how complex it is to develop the game, it's as if it's holding their creative freedoms back. The fact that they can't license Lotus and Volvo (two brands owned by Geely), and given that they demand a more handsome sum to license their cars, is quite alarming, especially with a major developer who has seen a lot of commercial success.
Lack of communication/community input - The fact that Polyphony is very tight-lipped with fans and the community can really be a bad sign, but this is not surprising. A lot of developers are open to share whatever they can share and engage with their fans, which could be crucial to suggestions and feedback, especially with fans requesting what cars and/or tracks they would like to see. The official social media pages for Gran Turismo isn't managed by Polyphony at all, and this could be a factor why.
As with the case of the most requested cars, it's the Lexus LFA and at least one Koenigsegg (Koenigsegg is also the most-requested new-to-series manufacturer yet to debut).
While sourcing cars, most of the car modeling team will be traveling around the world in search for certain cars that they want to add to the game.
Ever since they introduced premium quality cars - even more than in GT Sport, they've always obsessive pursued attention to detail in that regard, everything from the car design to their sounds and even the physics. At this point, we have roughly 430 cars in GT7 (including the three cars from the upcoming update as of writing), this number being roughly half of what's in Forza Motorsport 7.
Speaking of the complete process, I think it's this:
- Licensing (through manufacturers, racing agencies, teams and other such parties)
- Sourcing of cars
- Scanning, photography or CAD (depends on which methods are available to them)
- Sound recording and/or designing
- Modeling
- Rendering
- Implementation (physics, dynamics, game mechanics, etc.)
- Quality control/testing of final product
- Release
Don't get me wrong, but Turn Ten/Playground have also been plagued with poor decision making as well, such as leaving out older models from a car's specific model family series (latest or fastest rule).
Another is that the focus on the cars featured in the more modern Gran Turismo titles have shifted from featuring everyday vehicles (from GT1 to GT4) to dream vehicles from throughout the ages.
Budget/Licensing - Having sold nearly 80 to 90 million copies throughout the Gran Turismo series' lifespan, it's expected that Polyphony, and in part, Sony Interactive Entertainment, are sitting on perhaps an enormous amount of money that can help them acquire all the manpower, resources and opportunities they need to increase their production of cars, tracks and the overall quality of the game. And ironically, Gran Turismo is Playstation's best-selling franchise. But then again, no developer's funding is ever unlimited.
It seems that, even with all that money, Polyphony and Sony aren't using most of it to their advantage to license a lot of things, from manufacturers to multiple types of racing series (so far, GT7 has licensed race cars from DTM, FIA WEC, IMSA, International GT Open and Super GT), and with how complex it is to develop the game, it's as if it's holding their creative freedoms back. The fact that they can't license Lotus and Volvo (two brands owned by Geely), and given that they demand a more handsome sum to license their cars, is quite alarming, especially with a major developer who has seen a lot of commercial success.
Lack of communication/community input - The fact that Polyphony is very tight-lipped with fans and the community can really be a bad sign, but this is not surprising. A lot of developers are open to share whatever they can share and engage with their fans, which could be crucial to suggestions and feedback, especially with fans requesting what cars and/or tracks they would like to see. The official social media pages for Gran Turismo isn't managed by Polyphony at all, and this could be a factor why.
As with the case of the most requested cars, it's the Lexus LFA and at least one Koenigsegg (Koenigsegg is also the most-requested new-to-series manufacturer yet to debut).
Their partnership with IMSA, sadly, has not materialized into anything, at least not just yet. Other games such as the Project CARS series and even a mobile game like Real Racing 3 also have heavy IMSA representation, while for Gran Turismo, well, we have the Ford GT race car, and a Lexus RC F GT3 with an IMSA livery (albeit with Gran Turismo number plates).
I didn't know that. Apparently Forza's strong partnership with Hot Wheels allowed them access to some of their concept cars such as the Bone Shaker, Rip Rod and Twin Mill (they're also in Asphalt 8, albeit as limited-only cars), not to mention several HW Legends vehicles). I think the Twin Mill would be fitting for the Legendary Car Dealership, besides the return of the Tomica Skyline (I remember hearing it was in Gran Turismo 2).
Gran Turismo sort of has a partnership with Hot Wheels, except it's just limited to their toy cars and not in any form of in-game content such as their concept cars.
As a Forza fan myself, I've seen that they are trying to cover every single type of motorsport disciplines all at once, and throughout its history, I've seen that throughout all the games, there were numerous types such as Le Mans, IMSA, SCCA, Super GT/JGTC, Porsche Cup, V8 Supercars, IndyCar, Formula E, NASCAR, rallycross, trophy truck racing, various historic racing types and so much more, given Turn Ten/Playground's presumed larger funding and faster car production, they can license as many racing disciplines as they want.
Motorsport Games even have a bad reputation, as their NASCAR game was said to be really bad, that NASCAR themselves want new developers to create their official game. They're not gonna last long, and their efforts to make even an IndyCar and Le Mans game will also not do well. Their BTCC game is also in development limbo after their former president left the company.
Apparently they're also the publishers of rFactor 2, I guess?
NASCAR's Latest Video Game Was So Bad That It's Looking For A New Developer: Report
NASCAR 21: Ignition was the sport's first title fully developed by exclusive partner Motorsport Games. It sits with a 53 on Metacritic.
jalopnik.com
Motorsport Games' BTCC Title Might Be Delayed, President Stephen Hood Leaves
Following in the footsteps of the classic TOCA games, the BTCC was supposed to make a comeback to the sim racing stage with its own game in 2022: Announced in the summer of 2020, many touring car fans are looking forward to the title - however...
www.racedepartment.com
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- Codemasters (EA)
- PJTierney
You’re not far off.
There is a Step 0: Creative direction and pre-production.
Racing game developers first need to choose what kinds of (and often what specific) cars they want to have in their game.
Let’s take a rally game for example. You want to have a healthy mix of classes and era to represent the eras of rally history that are most important to your players. You also know that each car takes X number of days to make and you know that your game will release roughly 3 years after it’s greenlit.
Throwing all that into a blender you determine that you can have roughly 5-10 cars in every class. However, in your research you found out that a particular class has had 15-20 manufacturers get involved in real life.
Therefore, you have to choose the 5-10 best or most important/popular cars from this list and lock those in as the ones you wish to seek licenses for, assuming the licenses are available to begin with. The rest can be considered “nice to haves”, maybe DLC content (yes, DLC is not a reactionary thing, it’s planned from the beginning) or maybe fallbacks incase half of your priority cars are impossible to deliver on.
On a related note, for games with as many cars as any AAA release that doesn’t focus on a specific license (ie: not F1 since that’s mainly current season F1 cars), the vast majority of cars are selected or dismissed years in advance. Some developers have such close relationships with particular car manufacturers that they are working on the game version of a car before the real life one has been revealed to the world (look at Forza for that).
All those wish lists people were posting for cars after Gran Turismo 7 was released? You’ll be lucky if they have an influence on Gran Turismo 8.
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I think it will add 150-180 cars and 10-15 tracks.
HyperSpeeder
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Yup.
I remember when Shift 2 was released. Much of the content carried over from NFS Shift, meaning the games followed a roadmap and the cars were decided years before, which is why they had mostly older versions of the cars. On the other hand, NFS Hot Pursuit had several newer cars, which probably meant the licensing was done at a much later date.
With regards to GT, considering the licensing limbo certain brands and cars are in, it's very possible that cars such as the Tesla and the SLR McLaren only exist in the game because of very old licenses acquired years before any of the current roadblocks appeared.
This is why the better games in a franchise when it comes to content are usually those that follow a refresh in the licensing cycle, not so much those that carry over licenses from prior games. Forza Horizon 5 and Gran Turismo 7 came at the end of a licensing cycle, but Forza Motorsport is gonna come after a refresh. The new content does not ensure a game's success, but it sure does attract a lot of attention.
Problem with GT is that Sport delayed the game when it comes to road cars. If Sport had been GT7, you'd certainly have many more of those mid-2010s road cars in the game. GTS served a purpose in the Gran Turismo franchise by laying a strong foundation for an accessible sim with competitive play, but it did come at the expense of content you'd expect to find in a Gran Turismo game.
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