Why doesn't Sony just takeover the developing of GT7

[ironman44321]

Can you spot the missing polygons? I can't. Can you honestly say you don't think these would fit right into GT6 or GT7?

No, but PD models are very future proof. 500k polygons means that when it comes time to transition from the PS4 to the PS5 we don't have to worry about two gen old assets being included in the new games, because they'll already be of a high enough quality to keep up.

Though I will say that the models themselves in those pictures don't look as sharp as the ones we have in GT6.

 

[05XR8]

......Ooooh an open world GT game discussion: love this topic.
Standard cars can stay, used by AI only, as traffic. Midnight Club LA did this, Test Drive Unlimited did this, so why not open world GT. Hell, pretty sure other open world racers do the same (The Crew, FH). As for premium race cars, why not keep them - allowing you to utilize them in "closed road-course" races, as well as all those tracks that needs to stay in game too.
So, basically, you drive around, find landmarks like car dealerships, places of interests, garages, gas stations, tuning shops and entrances to race tracks, all strewn across a varied map. To the west, you get Venice Beach-esque scenery, complete with American dealerships, races and challenges for muscle cars and the like.
To the north, you get "posh" mountainous areas simulating The Olde World (i.e. Europe) and your European dealers/tracks; and when you enter "CBD" area it's all tall skyscrapers and Japanese makers/tracks.
To the east you get a desert with lots of room for drag/off road, while to the south, you get some epic cruising routes flanked by the ocean and a cliffside.
The game needs to have a fast-travel system - if you found a landmark, then just press a button and boom, you are there, kinda like The Crew. And some sort of messaging system, where your friends can send you PMs and invites to a lobby; also for AIs regularly challenging you to a race, like in Midnight Club.
Also, this being a GT, not GTA, you've gotta obey the traffic law - the way I envisioned it, the game has a discreet EXP system where every action you perform nets you some points. If you misbehave, your EXPs are deducted. And with these points you can periodically claim bonus goodies such as new livery (yes!), new tuning parts and such.
And the physics needs to be GT, not GTA too. Add to that day/night cycle, full-on weather/season system (snows in winter, dry in autumn etc), some sort of damage system, and more accurate tyre wear/ fuel usage/ chassis and motor degradation, then we got ourselves pretty much perfect template of an open world racer. 👍👍

I can't wait to get home and play GTA5!

 

[Johnnypenso]

No, but PD models are very future proof. 500k polygons means that when it comes time to transition from the PS4 to the PS5 we don't have to worry about two gen old assets being included in the new games, because they'll already be of a high enough quality to keep up.

Though I will say that the models themselves in those pictures don't look as sharp as the ones we have in GT6.

Polygons quickly reach a point where adding another 100k won't make any difference unless you use a microscope to look at the cars. Those DriveClub shots are in game by the way, on the fly, not static optimized renders like the one you showed. You're comparing apple to oranges. Can you honestly say that a car like this wouldn't be right at home in GT6 and likely GT7?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

No, but PD models are very future proof.

Yes and no. The models that have been built with AT from the ground up (some GT6 models)? Yep. You can zoom in as much as you want on those ones, and the curves keep coming. GT5 models? Not really: they're more than acceptable sure, and a very high quality, but cars like the Gallardo already have noticeable polygons on their wheelarches. Though that's not even the main hurdle with the idea of "future-proofing" (which is a guessing game at best): the engine bays, the opening doors, the undersides of the cars... these are things that will need to be modeled eventually, especially if a detailed damage model is to be incorporated.

 

[Imari]

No, but PD models are very future proof.

Yes and no.

Above a certain range, polys don't seem to be the problem any more. Assets on 8th gen really don't benefit very much from further smoothing.

What will catch them out eventually is the lack of modelling beneath the surface. Games are starting to model the structures below the outer surface to allow for damage and things like Forzavista. Maybe Polyphony have been doing that, but I doubt it or they'd be showing it off in Photomode.

They're fine on the outside, but GT5/6 models probably aren't going to be sufficient for PS5 without at least some additional work. They may not even be suitable for late-PS4, depending on how their competitors progress. Unless Polyphony stick with their "dirty textures" approach to damage, which would be disappointing.

Edit: Tree'd by Slip.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

No, but PD models are very future proof.

Yes and no.

No, but PD models are very future proof.

Yes and no.

Less than a minute apart? Well done!

 

[JKgo]

I take it we're talking about a map of an as of so-far unseen scale, if we're thinking of putting areas representative of North America, Europe and East Asia on the same map. It'd be a heck of a thing if anyone could be bothered to render a map of that size. Can't imagine it could be done whilst staying in-line with modern graphical standards.

.....Not really. Think about it: GTA: San Andreas did it with a PS2. What about Skyrim? Witcher 2? And with PS4, it's not entirely impossible - from what I hear, MGSV is going to feature massive open world too.

Edit: you might have noticed that I consciously left out open world racing games, such as TDU 2, The Crew, FH2....

 

[Griffith500]

It's quite possible that the models can be retro fitted with extra detail in the same way other parts can be swapped out - that will make them reusable for some time.

The tessellation is probably in the same boat, depending on exactly how it's achieved. One thing's for sure, the progressive mesh aspect does not give you subdivision beyond the resolution stored in the mesh, you need a separate method for that. The progressive mesh approach can be applied to existing models trivially (best results achieved with human input, though), they just need storing in a different format. The tessellation preparation is effectively new content, and would also result in at least a subtle change to file format.

I'd personally be happy with the visual damage system from GT5, as long as the physics aspects of damage are improved. Don't underestimate the effect of a greatly increased texture budget on their procedural damage system, either.

 

[andrea]

Polyphony should open a secondary studio. Konami opened a new, Los Angeles-based branch of Kojima Productions expanding the sphere of Hideo Kojima. Why can't Sony do the same for their biggest with selling IP?

 

[SCER]

..................Not really. Think about it: GTA: San Andreas did it with a PS2. What about Skyrim? Witcher 2? And with PS4, it's not entirely impossible - from what I hear, MGSV is going to feature massive open world too.

Edit: you might have noticed that I consciously left out open world racing games, such as TDU 2, The Crew, FH2....

None of your examples attempt to put representations of multiple continents on the same map

 

[JKgo]

None of your examples attempt to put representations of multiple continents on the same map

....Hmm does the map really need to be large? I'd think almost 50 km x 50 km map should be able to fit the varying environments. Oblivion did come the closest regards to offering different landscapes from one end of the map to the other.
Hell, it's a fantasy map anyway, no need to be 100% serious Googlemaps ripoff....

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Why doesn't Sony just takeover the developing of GT7 ?

While its certainly debatable to what extent, I believe to a great degree, they already have.
PD has not been an independant developer for sometime now.
GT was Kaz's baby at one time, but he has shared and likely limited custody now.
IMO it would be ludicrous to think Sony does not hold sway over Kaz and what is now, ultimately their product.
Particularly considering the sea of red ink, Sony is still swimming in.
Once in the big corporate fold, I just don't believe Kaz has the freedom to operate like he did before.

Its hard to say how much of the last two GTs were Kaz's ideas and how much were Sony's.
Or how much they agreed or disagreed on the developement.

Again JMO but this marriage has resulted in more harm for the GT series than good.

The one plus possibly now is the underwhelming sales of GT6.
I 'm confident Sony has taken note of that.
My hope is this will help to create a better GT7, but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[highlifeGT]

People can rant and speculate all they want. For example, if you are impatient about gt7 coming, I understand how frustrating it can be seeing xboxers treated to a new forza title of some sort every year or other year. But its foolish to think that another forza title could drastically affect the success of any upcoming Gran Turismo title. Whenever a FULL gran turismo game is released, gamers of all ages, hardcore, casual, sim racing junkies, and those in between, they allllll come out of the ****ing woodwork to buy the new gran turismo it seems like. Lol. It surprises me everytime one comes out. The funniest memory i have is the day gran turismo 4 came out.
my friend told me his entire automotive engineering class had Panama stuck in their head that day. All these guys barely knew each other, brand new class.... None of them had talked much until that point, yet every one of them picked up a copy of gt4, and the instructor let em out early too. Why? So he could go play some gt4.

When gt5 came out, I was returning from a deployment in the navy, and I went out into town in Hawaii to get gt5 the night before our last day there. Then we'd be back out to sea til we arrived home in san diego. I wouldn't be able to leave the ship the following day because I had watch. So I took it down to the shop in a hurry that evening prior, hooked up the Logitech wheel, clamped it to our workshop desk, and fired the game up full blast.
I started playing around 9pm. By 1am our shop was filled with as many people as it could fit. Why? Because when they walked by the shop, they heard gran turismo, and they flipped out. None of em knew it had come out. They all bought it the next day. Lol. Didn't even know half their names as they were from other divisions.

There's always a bit of something for everyone in the gt franchise. It'll never be "everything" for "anyone" though. Lol. Perfection does not exist.
Look at the sales records of gt overall. It'll deliver. And if you end up dissapointed, don't worry. GTplanet is still here for you. We're listening.

 

[Imari]

It's funny how many people think "it's always been like this, so it will always be like this" is actual logic.

The human brain and it's heuristics are funny.

 

[girabyt3]

People can rant and speculate all they want. For example, if you are impatient about gt7 coming, I understand how frustrating it can be seeing xboxers treated to a new forza title of some sort every year or other year. But its foolish to think that another forza title could drastically affect the success of any upcoming Gran Turismo title. Whenever a FULL gran turismo game is released, gamers of all ages, hardcore, casual, sim racing junkies, and those in between, they allllll come out of the ****ing woodwork to buy the new gran turismo it seems like. Lol. It surprises me everytime one comes out. The funniest memory i have is the day gran turismo 4 came out.
my friend told me his entire automotive engineering class had Panama stuck in their head that day. All these guys barely knew each other, brand new class.... None of them had talked much until that point, yet every one of them picked up a copy of gt4, and the instructor let em out early too. Why? So he could go play some gt4.

When gt5 came out, I was returning from a deployment in the navy, and I went out into town in Hawaii to get gt5 the night before our last day there. Then we'd be back out to sea til we arrived home in san diego. I wouldn't be able to leave the ship the following day because I had watch. So I took it down to the shop in a hurry that evening prior, hooked up the Logitech wheel, clamped it to our workshop desk, and fired the game up full blast.
I started playing around 9pm. By 1am our shop was filled with as many people as it could fit. Why? Because when they walked by the shop, they heard gran turismo, and they flipped out. None of em knew it had come out. They all bought it the next day. Lol. Didn't even know half their names as they were from other divisions.

There's always a bit of something for everyone in the gt franchise. It'll never be "everything" for "anyone" though. Lol. Perfection does not exist.
Look at the sales records of gt overall. It'll deliver. And if you end up dissapointed, don't worry. GTplanet is still here for you. We're listening.

Finally I see someone here on GT planet that says GT is for everybody (from casuals to hardcore) rather to just say casuals!!. I understand you bro, because doesn't matter the issues PD and Sony can have with GT's development, they still sell like hot bread. Even GT6 with poor marketing got to pass over 5 million now and counting before gt sport arrives. I know at the end is decision of the buyer if he/she wants to still being playing their GT after a while, but the racing genre would be nothing without GT or NFS because those two (and Nintendo racing games) put the genre on the map, all of us just remember why we are here, due to GT, and I know some of you now hate it, or doesn't like it for now, but at least respect it because they, even with many problems, go and try to nail it. Remember they are not the first Big franchise with problems, many big franchises had problems as well with developing.

In my opinion, if Kaz feels the needance of some help for GT, to take advantages of PS4's simple developing and to solve the many problems PS3 caused, he easily can ask to help to Sony animation studios (the ones behind Sony's animated movies) to have the best help possible and to cut the developing time as well.

 

[gtracedriver1]

Sony pays for all license, budget, advertising for the game including PD staff for making the game. They will have a say on their VR headset compatibility and some few other decision but most game design choices is made by PD and they do not interfere with it. EA has been using different devs for NFS games. So every team does their own thing but that is also not making much difference anyways. Activison does the same for COD series. Alternatively 2 team release the game. Microsoft is also doing the same with Forza. PD do lots of things on their game for all players so changing them will probably be a bad idea and doing something like Forza might kill the series.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Sony pays for all license, budget, advertising for the game including PD staff for making the game.

Are you saying that Sony not only pays the entire budget of the game, but separately pays the staff and PD and all the car and track licensing? It's not quite clear from the way you worded it.

 

[UKMikey]

Gran Turismo Motorsport. The real racing simulator. FiA approved. Only real FiA approved courses. Only real FiA homologated race cars in multiple catgories. Real FiA scenarios only you and the GT Racing community, along with real FiA officials determine the outcome. I can see this part of the GT World branching out. But.... kinda hard to do with only 4 or 5 people assigned to it.

Whoa, this post was pretty prescient.

 

[another_jakhole]

HaHahahaaaaa that's a funny thread title.

 

[Psychopulse]

But like, couldn't they just outsource the design to Evolution (since it's also part of SCEI), considering Driveclub's amazing detail and polish on the cars, that dare I say, even surpasses GT? (Then again, we don't know for sure what GT Sport will look like on the PS4, so we don't have a fair GT vs. Driveclub graphics comparison just yet). It didn't take Evo that long to develop Driveclub either I'm assuming. Granted, Driveclub is not the best gameplay-wise, but it just takes wayy too long for PD to achieve that graphical level of realism... We're talking a turnaround time of 6 months! Why don't they just leave the design to Evolution, and focus on what they do best i.e. the technical stuff like physics and simulation? It's not that much of a stretch because they're both Sony at the end of the day.

 

[girabyt3]

But like, couldn't they just outsource the design to Evolution (since it's also part of SCEI), considering Driveclub's amazing detail and polish on the cars, that dare I say, even surpasses GT? (Then again, we don't know for sure what GT Sport will look like on the PS4, so we don't have a fair GT vs. Driveclub graphics comparison just yet). It didn't take Evo that long to develop Driveclub either I'm assuming. Granted, Driveclub is not the best gameplay-wise, but it just takes wayy too long for PD to achieve that graphical level of realism... We're talking a turnaround time of 6 months! Why don't they just leave the design to Evolution, and focus on what they do best i.e. the technical stuff like physics and simulation? It's not that much of a stretch because they're both Sony at the end of the day.

Because that would be the same thing Forza does with T10 and Microsoft visual studios. And then it will be people that says GT copied Forza and not backwards... PD just needs to get bigger

 

[SimTourist]

But like, couldn't they just outsource the design to Evolution (since it's also part of SCEI), considering Driveclub's amazing detail and polish on the cars, that dare I say, even surpasses GT? (Then again, we don't know for sure what GT Sport will look like on the PS4, so we don't have a fair GT vs. Driveclub graphics comparison just yet). It didn't take Evo that long to develop Driveclub either I'm assuming. Granted, Driveclub is not the best gameplay-wise, but it just takes wayy too long for PD to achieve that graphical level of realism... We're talking a turnaround time of 6 months! Why don't they just leave the design to Evolution, and focus on what they do best i.e. the technical stuff like physics and simulation? It's not that much of a stretch because they're both Sony at the end of the day.

Evolution has outsourced car models to the same company that T10 does, and the turnaround time is still 6 months for all developers. PD isn't slower than anyone else in this regard.

 

[Stephen220378]

Sony basically do control the of GT, PD are an in-house developer and although Sony give them quite a lot of freedom I believe we've seen Sony's intervention a few times with regards to Gran Turismo. In my opinion there's no way PD would have released GT5 in such an unfinished state if Sony hadn't got fed up with the multitude of delays, nor would PD have released GT6 on PS3 if they had their way.

I really do think however, it would be a good idea if Kaz took a step back and allowed someone else to come in with a fresh approach. The game seems, since GT4 in my opinion, to be stagnating. It's like PD are so stuck in their ways that they're afraid to change, while the young upstart Project Cars has GT beaten hands down when it comes to the racing and have already announced Project Cars 2 with a load of additions and improvements. The move worked wonders for Konami and Pro Evolution Soccer when they stopped Shingo 'Seabass' Takatsuka having overall control of 'his baby', the IP since then has went from strength to strength, finally surpassing FIFA again this year in the eyes of the majority of review sites and football fans.

 

[Imari]

...nor would PD have released GT6 on PS3 if they had their way.

I rather think the opposite: Sony would have preferred a bare basics Gran Turismo at the launch of PS4 to push sales. Turns out that they didn't really need it, but they couldn't have known that at the time. For PD it was preferable and easier to release another game on the same system, so that they could get more value out of the code that they'd just spent 5+ years working on.

Launching a new system well has the potential to generate far more money for Sony than just selling a game on an old system. Given Kaz's position within Sony, I'm not exactly sure who wears the pants when it comes to Sony and PD. I suspect that at best there's a bit of back and forth that goes on there.

I really do think however, it would be a good idea if Kaz took a step back and allowed someone else to come in with a fresh approach. The game seems, since GT4 in my opinion, to be stagnating. It's like PD are so stuck in their ways that they're afraid to change, while the young upstart Project Cars has GT beaten hands down when it comes to the racing and have already announced Project Cars 2 with a load of additions and improvements. The move worked wonders for Konami and Pro Evolution Soccer when they stopped Shingo 'Seabass' Takatsuka having overall control of 'his baby', the IP since then has went from strength to strength, finally surpassing FIFA again this year in the eyes of the majority of review sites and football fans.

Agree. GTS looks like it could be a step in the right direction to revitalising the series, but I'm hesitant to label it as such until we know more. There have been many potentially amazing things announced for GT5 and 6 that turned out to be flubs because of poor design.

 

[TheAnimeDude]

There have been many potentially amazing things announced for GT5 and 6 that turned out to be flubs because of poor design.

With GT6 being the least selling GT in the series and seeing PD growing the development team is a sign that they are trying some new route with their future which *cough* is what GT Sport is here for that purpose for the most part.

 

[gtracedriver1]

Are you saying that Sony not only pays the entire budget of the game, but separately pays the staff and PD and all the car and track licensing? It's not quite clear from the way you worded it.

I thought about this again and I think they decide the total budget excluding the advertising, marketing money. It is up to polyphony if they decide to hire more people or use the money for license or whatever. They obviously look after all the bills but it is upto the Dev team how they like to use it

 

[highlifeGT]

the young upstart Project Cars has GT beaten hands down when it comes to the racing and have already announced Project Cars 2 with a load of additions and improvements.

Sure, as an entertaining "racing experience" with inteligent-esque AI, Pcars is great...but that's it.

Overall... no, no it does not have GT beaten. Driving Sim purists with ffb wheel, casual racers using controllers, and the hardcore pc racers with tripples screens and direct drive wheels, the majority of whom I've talked to have all given similar impressions of Pcars. Strange / icey physics and tire model, no actually road feel, and ffb implementation is a nightmare because they never actually tried to program it. They just gave us the variables for ffb and said, here ya go, figure it out, and do it per car. Lol.
Pcars is a nice game for casuals with a controller who need a title to cling to, but dont for a second think that title even holds a candle to the gt franchise. Pcars developers have a great deal to learn about their fan base, so claiming Pcars 2 will be much better is a no-brainer. More racing games is always good, don't get me wrong. I'm glad it came out. But I can't see it replacing gt. Still, the game is pretty impressive for an indie title of sorts. I just hate that one part in Pcars....you know...the driving part

 

[Johnnypenso]

Sure, as an entertaining "racing experience" with inteligent-esque AI, Pcars is great...but that's it.

Overall... no, no it does not have GT beaten. Driving Sim purists with ffb wheel, casual racers using controllers, and the hardcore pc racers with tripples screens and direct drive wheels, the majority of whom I've talked to have all given similar impressions of Pcars. Strange / icey physics and tire model, no actually road feel, and ffb implementation is a nightmare because they never actually tried to program it. They just gave us the variables for ffb and said, here ya go, figure it out, and do it per car. Lol.
Pcars is a nice game for casuals with a controller who need a title to cling to, but dont for a second think that title even holds a candle to the gt franchise. Pcars developers have a great deal to learn about their fan base, so claiming Pcars 2 will be much better is a no-brainer. More racing games is always good, don't get me wrong. I'm glad it came out. But I can't see it replacing gt. Still, the game is pretty impressive for an indie title of sorts. I just hate that one part in Pcars....you know...the driving part

It's funny that you pretty much ignore Stephen's point, which is that the racing element of PCars has GT beaten hands down, which it does. Since many people play racing games for, you know, racing, that should be pretty important. The physics, road feel and FFB is also much better than on GT, although you need a degree in engineering to sort out all the FFB parameters so thankfully someone came along and sorted it out for us, namely, BManic and Jackspade. They are struggling with the tire model as of late, but it has shown signs of brilliance and they'll get it right eventually, but it too is hands down, well ahead of GT's simplistic, simcade tire model. Overall GT is the bigger "game" with more variety if you include racing on the moon, Goodwood, VGT's etc. but to me it's the old "lipstick on a pig" analogy. If the core of the game, the offline racing and the career, isn't good or up to industry standards, it doesn't matter how much content you have. Online racing is hit and miss in GT and AC, same as any game.

 

[Samus]

To be frank I can't think of many serious or semi-serious racing games in recent years that have worse single player racing than GT6. I'm playing GRID 2 again at the moment and whilst of course it's well behind GT6 on physics and graphics the racing is absolutely better, much more fun. Of course it has issues, all games do, but it's definitely more fun and engaging racing than GT6 is offline.

 

[highlifeGT]

It's funny that you pretty much ignore Stephen's point, which is that the racing element of PCars has GT beaten hands down, which it does. Since many people play racing games for, you know, racing, that should be pretty important. The physics, road feel and FFB is also much better than on GT, although you need a degree in engineering to sort out all the FFB parameters so thankfully someone came along and sorted it out for us, namely, BManic and Jackspade. They are struggling with the tire model as of late, but it has shown signs of brilliance and they'll get it right eventually, but it too is hands down, well ahead of GT's simplistic, simcade tire model. Overall GT is the bigger "game" with more variety if you include racing on the moon, Goodwood, VGT's etc. but to me it's the old "lipstick on a pig" analogy. If the core of the game, the offline racing and the career, isn't good or up to industry standards, it doesn't matter how much content you have. Online racing is hit and miss in GT and AC, same as any game.

Hey I'm not gona say gt6 is the best racing title ever, and if u read carefully I give pcars credit where its due.