Why I came to hate Public Education

[A2K78]

As ususal, Hornberger hit all of the right notes beat for beat on why this socialist instutition can't be fixed:

http://www.fff.org/blog/jghblog2011-09-27.asp

This part I love because its the undeniable truth:

In fact, public schooling is such a mess that not even the president of the United States, Barack Obama, will entrust his own children to the system. Oh, sure, he’ll force other parents to send their children into the system but he’s not about to do that to his children. He places too high a value on them to subject them to such abuse.

despite having gone through the system, in the end I've managed to de-program msyelf from it.

 

[Racedude]

I still don't get the "School=Commies" part, I don't think school in the US has got that far into anybodies mind to make anybody into the government's pet.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So, the President is expected to compromise the education of his children for the sake of politically-endorsing a system that he knows to be broken?

I'm Australian, so I don't really know how it works in America. I'm also a high school teacher, and I do know that down here, I'd happily teach in a public school. In fact, I'd much rather teach in a public school than a private one, most of which are run by the churches. I went through a private school myself, and by the time I gratuated I had two things: an education, and no love for instituionalised religion. I found a Catholic school indoctrinated me with values that I didn't necessarily agree with, but had no chocie but to observe. And it's getting worse - a handful of Christian schools have been re-writing the national anthem to espouse Christian values, and they're refusing to revert back to the actual anthem (which is the only one permitted). What would the reaction in America be if someone rewrote The Star-Spangled Banner to reflect similar ideas?

 

[Omnis]

I would be mad that they desecrated the church with the national anthem.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Well, religion in schools is probably a very different kettle of fish down here; we don't really have the creationism-vs.-evolution debate on the same scale that America does. However, the adjusted lyrics of Advance Australia Fair promote the country as a secular nation. We are not. There is a separation between church and state, which has become a minor debate of late because there have been a spate of incidents stemming from people enforcing sharia law - and it's usually the Christian/Catholic groups who are leading the debate.

 

[Omnis]

No, it's the Christian Fundamentalists. Catholicism is not unfriendly to the theory of evolution.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Well, the approach when I was in high school was "teach both and let the students decide for themselves".

 

[Omnis]

I would say that is lazy and spiritually dangerous.

 

[CMvan46]

Well, the approach when I was in high school was "teach both and let the students decide for themselves".

How it generally is up here too.

Secondly why would the President of the United States send his children anywhere but where he can be assured his children are 100% safe at all times? You can't in public school and imagine the crap those poor kids would go through. The same reason you don't see any of the World's biggest leaders just strolling through East Vancouver during the Olympics either but nobody questioned that.

I don't know what happens in American schools but from my experience through public schooling here and university after 3 years is that I've been taught fairly and with very little bias. I think some people want to read more into things and stir up crap than is deserved.

 

[DK]

My biggest gripe about my country's education system is compulsory Irish.

I went to a primary school with a Catholic ethos. In Ireland, there are still a relatively small amount of non-denominational schools, when compared to those which cater to students of a certain denomination (e.g. Roman Catholicism, Church of Ireland/Anglicanism, Presbyterian Church). What I really hated about my primary school was the crappy religious sing-alongs. Maybe I'm already turning into a grumpy old git...

 

[Dapper]

Why not end all state involvement in education?

Because everyone can't afford an education without state involvement, duh.

Why not a total free market in education?

Markets fail. In the case of my children, that is not an option.

despite having gone through the system, in the end I've managed to de-program msyelf from it.

I believe an offering of a cookie is appropriate. The fact is you are normal... and there was nothing to deprogram.

 

[Azuremen]

Hmm, I don't think if I was a world known figure I'd just send my kids to a public school as well. Kind of for their sake, because they would have to deal with a lot of crap.

And de-program yourself of what brain washing? Education? The common sense you may have had before you climbed on your soapbox to sound like a largest fan of Fox News I've seen in some time.

 

[Omnis]

Because everyone can't afford an education without state involvement, duh.

Markets fail. In the case of my children, that is not an option.

I believe an offering of a cookie is appropriate. The fact is you are normal... and there was nothing to deprogram.

Markets don't fail. Firms do.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

And in this case, schools are firms.

There's a private school the next town over from me called Calrossy. For the better part of a century, it has exclusively been a girls' school. However, for 2012, they're opening up admissions to include boys. Because I'm looking to take up a full-time teaching job next year, I naturally looked to Calrossy for any vacancies. And despite the fact that they're opening up their doors to include boys, they had just one position going: head of mathematics. I did some asking around and found out that they've been struggling for years - they only opened up admissions to boys when the number of girls at the school dropped to the point where it was no longer sustainable.

This is an exclusive private school that we're talking about. It was both a boarding and a day school (we're in a regional centre, and some people live several hours away). If they can't survive, what chance would any school have if there was no government involvement?

 

[Keef]

This is an exclusive private school that we're talking about. It was both a boarding and a day school (we're in a regional centre, and some people live several hours away). If they can't survive, what chance would any school have if there was no government involvement?

Ever thought that government competition might be exactly what is pricing them out of the market?

Private schools and universities in my area have gotten steadily more exlusive over the years - slowly but surely - and I have a feeling it's because public schools are "free", plentiful, and publicly-funded universities can "afford" to offer special price benefits and subsidies, etc.

When a government offers all sorts of subsidized public services the private sector typically has to tighten its belt and usually becomes smaller and less productive. The government wonders what the heck is going on, so they offer even more services to pick up the slack. Of course, that ruins the private sector even further. Before you know it, they've priced the whole private sector out of the market, the economy has become socialist, and all the dummies are terrified at what would happen if the government stopped picking up the slack.

The problem is there never was any slack - the government forced everybody else out of the market!

 

[Camaroyenko]

That's why I'm homeschooled. xD

 

[Keef]

Tell your parents to vote for Ron Paul. The reason all the other candidates support home-schooling as an option is because Dr. Paul has done so for 30+ years.

 

[astrosdude91]

Really in many cases, the education of a private school is inferior to that of a public scool.

Homeschooling has a whole other level of problems.

 

[sumbrownkid]

What parents need to start doing is actively encourage their children to be competitive in whatever school they are enrolled in.

That, or a swift kick up their asses until they start cracking on those textbooks.

Can't fault Obama for sending his kids to a private school. If you were in his position you would do the same.

The main problem with home schooling is that a lot of kids I met who were taught in such way were very socially awkward/withdrawn.

Sometimes street smarts can get you very far, you know?

 

[Camaroyenko]

The main problem with home schooling is that a lot of kids I met who were taught in such way were very socially awkward/withdrawn.

Not at my house. We do things the old school way (No pun intended...)

For example, I left public school at 2nd grade and we started homeschooling at 3rd grade. At public school, they taught me some oddball way to carry over in addition problems...at home we do it the normal way.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Not at my house. We do things the old school way (No pun intended...)

For example, I left public school at 2nd grade and we started homeschooling at 3rd grade. At public school, they taught me some oddball way to carry over in addition problems...at home we do it the normal way.

You're the lucky one I guess.

I still have my qualms against home schooling though.

 

[Azuremen]

Really in many cases, the education of a private school is inferior to that of a public scool.

Homeschooling has a whole other level of problems.

As a person who went to a private high school, I have to severely disagree. Provided it isn't a religious private school, and even then it is debatable.

Not at my house. We do things the old school way (No pun intended...)

For example, I left public school at 2nd grade and we started homeschooling at 3rd grade. At public school, they taught me some oddball way to carry over in addition problems...at home we do it the normal way.

Which what and what these days? I'm curious because there are some methods that are a lot better than the "old school" methods that I am thinking of.

 

[Grand Prix]

You would think cheap, private education would exist even with public schools already in place, if there was a market for such a thing.

However, I suppose it's a bit of a chicken and egg argument. We don't know for sure if cheap private schools don't exist because of public schools and vice versa.


But let me ask a question: If cheap private education existed, would you use it, knowing that every firm is going to have different standards of operation? These are schools we are talking about here, not burger joints or grocery stores. Not everyone is going to cross-shop the competition if there is only one in their area. (Unless they have really snobby parents that want them to get schooled in North or West Vancouver, but they would just use the top-rated expensive schools that are across the other end of town anyway).

I can't speak for the US, but honestly I was pretty happy with the public education we have here. The only real complaint was that the science textbooks were from the 1980s. I doubt a switch to private school would be worth it for up-to-date textbooks, especially with the internet nowadays.


Also: You can teach a teenager all you want, but it won't do a damn thing if they just don't care about it. Many people will gladly C- their way through the entire system while not learning much of anything. Getting people interested in education from a young age is key, and that is mostly dependent on the parenting.

 

[Dan_]

The debate is pretty much regionalized, over there we have terrible public education and not so good private schools. The ministry of education is supposed to regulate and provide directions for both models, however what you see is self-regulated private institutions and public scholarship confined to generalized mediocrity.

I'm not saying private schools solve all problems since they are pretty expensive and adopt their own standards. There is actually a national education plan, from which all schools have to take the headlines, but it is so superficial that private schools have a lot of freedom to build their own teaching methodologies. Fact is, private schools beat public education by miles around here.

Public universities are pretty good though, and that creates another distortion: Most public college students are provenient from private high schools since admittance is given by merit ( read : tests ), and the private schooled people have astonishing advantage.

 

[rocko100]

You would think cheap, private education would exist even with public schools already in place, if there was a market for such a thing.

However, I suppose it's a bit of a chicken and egg argument. We don't know for sure if cheap private schools don't exist because of public schools and vice versa.

But let me ask a question: If cheap private education existed, would you use it, knowing that every firm is going to have different standards of operation? These are schools we are talking about here, not burger joints or grocery stores. Not everyone is going to cross-shop the competition if there is only one in their area. (Unless they have really snobby parents that want them to get schooled in North or West Vancouver, but they would just use the top-rated expensive schools that are across the other end of town anyway).

I can't speak for the US, but honestly I was pretty happy with the public education we have here. The only real complaint was that the science textbooks were from the 1980s. I doubt a switch to private school would be worth it for up-to-date textbooks, especially with the internet nowadays.

Also: You can teach a teenager all you want, but it won't do a damn thing if they just don't care about it. Many people will gladly C- their way through the entire system while not learning much of anything. Getting people interested in education from a young age is key, and that is mostly dependent on the parenting.

This, IMO grades depend on student Attitude.
Not schooling

 

[Dapper]

http://www.thecountrydayschool.com/admission/fees.html

This is pretty much the only private school that is not religion based in my area... at least where I call home. Oh, they don't have a playground...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Ever thought that government competition might be exactly what is pricing them out of the market?

Not in this case - there are three public high schools in that town, and six private, including two with board housing. And of the three public schools, two have a rough reputation.

Though you should bear in mind that I'm not in America - I'm in Australia, so our issues are a little different here. Right now, the biggest problem in schools is NAPLAN, standardised testing to "assess national literacy". Under NAPLAN, schools are ranked according to their performance in the tests. The controversy stems from the way those schools will have their results made public. If that goes ahead, schools will struggle to attract students because parents will naturally gravitate towards schools with stronger results. Of course, NAPLAN doesn't take into account socio-economic variables - metropolitain schools will naturally have a stronger rating than regional and remote schools. This has led to a phenomenon where schools "encourage" under-performing students to stay away on testing days to increase their literacy rating, thus making the schools more attractive to families.

 

[fld200]

Well, what has made me hate the public schooling in America, is the Teachers Union. Look at here in Wisconsin, when Governor Walker made the public sector cuts that he did (needed, and are working now), the teachers union threw a hissy fit, then they proceeded to use us students (myself a student at the time), as a shield, and say it was for the kids, and in reality, it wasn't for any of us students, only for them to keep there benefits paid for mostly by the private sector, and the benefits were incredibly expensive, as the union itself had it's own health insurance company. This has caused me to lose my faith in a lot of teachers in this area.

 

[Dapper]

Well, what has made me hate the public schooling in America, is the Teachers Union. Look at here in Wisconsin, when Governor Walker made the public sector cuts that he did (needed, and are working now), the teachers union threw a hissy fit, then they proceeded to use us students (myself a student at the time), as a shield, and say it was for the kids, and in reality, it wasn't for any of us students, only for them to keep there benefits paid for mostly by the private sector, and the benefits were incredibly expensive, as the union itself had it's own health insurance company. This has caused me to lose my faith in a lot of teachers in this area.

If a teacher leaves for any reason the students are the ones that suffer. So, teachers were looking out for students by ensuring that their jobs are profitable enough to survive off of so they wouldn't have to go somewhere else and leave the students without teachers.

If anything you should hate the governor for putting students' education at risk.

 

[uMadson?]

Even worse in the Philippines. Public schools here are overpopulated with filth.

I am disappoint.