Why I will most likely stick with Forza 3 over GT5

[Xavier2342]

Once I'm done with GT5, I'll be making my transition back to F3.

 

[Greyum]

As for comparing the two GT5 feels more realistic, the road feels more realistic, the Nordschleife is more realistic and there are 16 cars on the track. For me its no contest GT5 wins and my FM3 collects dust. And I'm an xbox fanboy I had to blow the dust off my PS3 to play GT5!

There are not 16 cars on the track...not always.

Personally, I sold my PS3 after a week of playing GT5. So what if it looks more realistic in parts (shadows...*cough*)? So what if the Nord' "feels" more realistic? It all means squat when there is no game-substance there.

 

[ShylockHolmes]

There are not 16 cars on the track...not always.

Personally, I sold my PS3 after a week of playing GT5. So what if it looks more realistic in parts (shadows...*cough*)? So what if the Nord' "feels" more realistic? It all means squat when there is no game-substance there.

There are 16 cars on the track whenever you want there to be it's right in your racing room options and FM3 will never have more than 8. I'm not saying the Nordschleife "feels" more realistic I'm saying the Nordschleife "is" more realistic. Forza widens the road and makes the stretches straighter and the road is very flat , lacks bumps and is soooo easy to drive. Bottom line is FM3 is just too easy to drive even at crazy speeds.

 

[FyreandIce]

There are 16 cars on the track whenever you want there to be it's right in your racing room options and FM3 will never have more than 8. I'm not saying the Nordschleife "feels" more realistic I'm saying the Nordschleife "is" more realistic. Forza widens the road and makes the stretches straighter and the road is very flat , lacks bumps and is soooo easy to drive. Bottom line is FM3 is just too easy to drive even at crazy speeds.

The difference is, FM3 has solid 60fps where as even with just standard cars on screen GT5 has noticeable frame rate and tearing issues.

Also, It seems like you have never even driven the FM3 Nordschleife, it is by no means "smooth".

 

[Scaff]

The difference is, FM3 has solid 60fps where as even with just standard cars on screen GT5 has noticeable frame rate and tearing issues.

Very true, but both are to be honest a compromise.

GT5's occasional drops are annoying, but the 16 car grids do make some races; while the FM3 frame rate is lovely but to be honest on the longer tracks the 8 car fields does make the racing very empty at times.

Also, It seems like you have never even driven the FM3 Nordschleife, it is by no means "smooth".

I have and while it is not smooth, and it certainly is an improvement on the 'ring from FM & FM2, its still compromised.

I've been to the 'ring on a number of occasions and the FM3 version is still not bumpy enough and at times it still too wide. Now while I understand the reasons why this was done, I don't agree with them.


Scaff

 

[WolfRacer543]

Well you can go out and buy most cars with an Auto Tranny. Finding one with Auto Brake is a bit more difficult. Also you'll find that you can not rewind back from a wreck in real life. These are arcade game features. The game was supposed to be a sim.

I've clocked up a few hundred hours in sim racers and I appreciate features like Auto brake, racing line and rewind.

Auto brake and racing line help you learn a track. A few laps and you can know the braking points and ideal line.

Rewind I also find is a good feature and lets you set the AI to a high difficulty and race near the edge for a long race without stress of losing all the hard work to a silly mistake. You may say, "well you dont have rewind in real life", but in real life you also have "assists" that you dont get in a game, like being able to feel the forces and torques through your seat to be able to ride the line between "fast" and "out of control". You dont get that in a game, so I appreciate having a rewind feature to help you out when you push beyond that limit and can't save it.

Recently I've been playing F1 2010. With all assists off and the AI set to legend its a great challenge of a game. Not what I'd call "sim", but a good game. For the first practice session I'll leave the artificial racing line on until I have a good idea of braking points and the ideal line. Then I'll turn it off (and usually get faster for turning it off as I find my own ideal line which may vary from what the game is saying). Then for the race itself, with 4 flashbacks on I can go toe to toe with challenging AI with much more enjoyment than just setting the AI to a lower difficulty level and having to take it easier.

Just because you dont like the assists dont mean they're bad for a racing game, even a sim racer. I like them and I'd consider myself a sim racer more than anything, clocked up a couple of hundred hours in LFS and another couple of hundred in the Simbin series.

 

[FyreandIce]

I have and while it is not smooth, and it certainly is an improvement on the 'ring from FM & FM2, its still compromised.

I've been to the 'ring on a number of occasions and the FM3 version is still not bumpy enough and at times it still too wide. Now while I understand the reasons why this was done, I don't agree with them.


Scaff

I'm not saying it's perfect but it is no where near as "bad" as some people claim it is.

 

[Greyum]

There are 16 cars on the track whenever you want there to be it's right in your racing room options and FM3 will never have more than 8. I'm not saying the Nordschleife "feels" more realistic I'm saying the Nordschleife "is" more realistic. Forza widens the road and makes the stretches straighter and the road is very flat , lacks bumps and is soooo easy to drive. Bottom line is FM3 is just too easy to drive even at crazy speeds.

Rubbish. When playing A-spec, most of the time it is 8 or 12 cars on track, rarely 16. Besides, when you are either out in front by a country mile, or behind because your car just isn't capable enough, what difference does it make how many cars are on track? The AI matching in GT5 is terrible.

So what if FM3 is too easy to drive even at crazy speeds? Believe it or not that is what most people want out of a driving game - a bit of fun. GT5 does not provide that.

 

[Scaff]

Rubbish. When playing A-spec, most of the time it is 8 or 12 cars on track, rarely 16. Besides, when you are either out in front by a country mile, or behind because your car just isn't capable enough, what difference does it make how many cars are on track? The AI matching in GT5 is terrible.

The two of you are talking at cross-purposes. No you can't pick the number of cars on track in A-spec mode (as you quite rightly say Greyum), however you most certainly can on-line (as ShylockHolmes rightly says).

In regard to on-line racing he raises a very fair point, I certainly would be quite happy in FM4 allowed for larger grids on or off-line.

So what if FM3 is too easy to drive even at crazy speeds? Believe it or not that is what most people want out of a driving game - a bit of fun. GT5 does not provide that.

Most, but not all. Personally I would like it to be a realistic as possible, that's my fun, and to be fair both title bill themselves in that way so its not as if in an unexpected ask.

I'm not saying it's perfect but it is no where near as "bad" as some people claim it is.

No, and as I said its better than previous versions found in FM. However its still out by enough to totally change a number of the corners, which for me defeats the reason for having the track in the first place.


Scaff

 

[McLaren]

Very true, but both are to be honest a compromise.

GT5's occasional drops are annoying, but the 16 car grids do make some races; while the FM3 frame rate is lovely but to be honest on the longer tracks the 8 car fields does make the racing very empty at times.

Agreed. Now, yes, GT5 does have some 8 car fields, but from what I've seen so far from my time playing, there is usually a larger group of cars together.

In Forza, it wouldn't take long for the pack to split and only leave 1-2 cars at the front, 1 in the middle, and the rest in the back. So by the time you're in the front, you really have one, maybe two opponents to worry about.

Now GT5 does this sometimes, but the pack usually isn't that far behind. At the most, I've seen maybe 2-3 cars that have completely fallen behind. Otherwise, they stick together really well. I've also noticed that like the player, there are 1-2 cars who are also making quick pushes towards the front, and these become your biggest opponents. In Forza, the bigger players are usually already in the Top 3.

I have and while it is not smooth, and it certainly is an improvement on the 'ring from FM & FM2, its still compromised.

I've been to the 'ring on a number of occasions and the FM3 version is still not bumpy enough and at times it still too wide. Now while I understand the reasons why this was done, I don't agree with them.
Scaff

FM3's 'Ring has an issue of not being bumpy enough, and then just waaay too un-elevated in 3-4 big spots in the track. Most noticeably, that big dip that hooks immediately right & then up hill, right as you come into Pflanzgarten sector. In Forza, you can't go down it smoothly unless you do 20-30Mph. Otherwise, you just come down with a loud thud under heaving braking. In GT5, thanks to its attention to detail, you may catch just a tiny bit of air, but enough to come into the turn smoothly.

Using this photo as reference. I think Scaff will know the corner I'm referring to.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Agreed. Now, yes, GT5 does have some 8 car fields, but from what I've seen so far from my time playing, there is usually a larger group of cars together.

In Forza, it wouldn't take long for the pack to split and only leave 1-2 cars at the front, 1 in the middle, and the rest in the back. So by the time you're in the front, you really have one, maybe two opponents to worry about.

I honestly haven't seen the difference between the two in that regard. Be it 8, 12 or 16, most of us have passed the entire pack in both games by half way through the first lap in almost every career race. All it comes down to in the end is giving you more cars to actually lap as you pass them buy again...and again.

 

[prymet1me]

About the pack of cars comment in both games. I have a short amount of time in GT5 and I have noticed they stick together more than the cars in FM3. Also have any of you noticed that if you are behind Rossi in FM 3 his car will be pretty quick and if both of you are duking it out for the lead you will pull away from the pack slowly? Then after you pass him he will never catch up with you unless you make too many errors.

 

[StogyBear]

On paper Forza is better. More fully detailed cars (forget standards), more customization options, better online, better single player, livery editor. But once you start playing, it feels like a game. GT5 on the other hand feels more realistic. Its still a game, but it feels closer to driving a real car than Forza. I think if PD screwed up the physics and graphics more than what it is now, GT5 would have flopped.

 

[prymet1me]

On paper Forza is better. More fully detailed cars (forget standards), more customization options, better online, better single player, livery editor. But once you start playing, it feels like a game. GT5 on the other hand feels more realistic. Its still a game, but it feels closer to driving a real car than Forza. I think if PD screwed up the physics and graphics more than what it is now, GT5 would have flopped.

I can respect that opinion, but I dont have a wheel for either console and FM feels better to me when I am driving in the game. Glad I own both games however.

 

[ShylockHolmes]

The difference is, FM3 has solid 60fps where as even with just standard cars on screen GT5 has noticeable frame rate and tearing issues.

Also, It seems like you have never even driven the FM3 Nordschleife, it is by no means "smooth".

LOL I'm #132 in the world on the Nordschleife with very little effort at all in FM3. It's as smooth as a babies butt, it's wider and straighter than real life. You can go watch dash cam footage from the ring taxi's on youtube if you want to compare the real north loop to Forza's.

The GT5 only suffers framerate glitches on certain tracks when in cockpit mode. And FM3 better be 60fps solid with its faded graphics and measley 8 cars on the track.

 

[ShylockHolmes]

Rubbish. When playing A-spec, most of the time it is 8 or 12 cars on track, rarely 16. Besides, when you are either out in front by a country mile, or behind because your car just isn't capable enough, what difference does it make how many cars are on track? The AI matching in GT5 is terrible.

So what if FM3 is too easy to drive even at crazy speeds? Believe it or not that is what most people want out of a driving game - a bit of fun. GT5 does not provide that.

We must be playing different games, I hardly ever see an 8 car field in GT5 and who even cares about single player? Sims are for racing online against real people not rock dumb AI and rubberband racers. GT5 is the most fun since PGR2 and FM3 is so easy it's boring. I've never and will never see a 10,12,16 player race in FM3. The straight, fat, smooth FM3 Nordschleife is a very lonely place running all by your lonesome, no one even within mirror distance.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I can respect that opinion, but I dont have a wheel for either console and FM feels better to me when I am driving in the game. Glad I own both games however.

Yup, feels better here as well. It all comes down to opinion, not a fact. So it's all good so long as one is happy with their purchase.

 

[JeffKill]

I can respect that opinion, but I dont have a wheel for either console and FM feels better to me when I am driving in the game. Glad I own both games however.

I also play and like both games. I do recommend trying GT5 with one of the Logitech wheels if you get the chance. It really does make the game 10x better than playing with a controller. Now I just wish Microsoft would work something out with Logitech so you could use their wheels with the Forza series.

 

[McLaren]

I honestly haven't seen the difference between the two in that regard. Be it 8, 12 or 16, most of us have passed the entire pack in both games by half way through the first lap in almost every career race. All it comes down to in the end is giving you more cars to actually lap as you pass them buy again...and again.

Not my point. The cars in Forza separate themselves very quickly into tiny groups.

The cars in GT5 actually stay together because unlike Forza, most are actually close in performance. In Forza, you've got the ZR1, 430S, & Superleggera just running away from the ACR & GT3RS on even the tightest tracks, where the latter should actually be keeping up without issue.

 

[prymet1me]

We must be playing different games, I hardly ever see an 8 car field in GT5 and who even cares about single player? Sims are for racing online against real people not rock dumb AI and rubberband racers. GT5 is the most fun since PGR2 and FM3 is so easy it's boring. I've never and will never see a 10,12,16 player race in FM3. The straight, fat, smooth FM3 Nordschleife is a very lonely place running all by your lonesome, no one even within mirror distance.

Well it depends man, most online race games the people that are not in the front say, I don't know first 4-6 positions quit the race if they fall too far behind. The running alone comment can be made for any racing game if you are either very far in front or behind the pack. And as far as GT5 online its all good but there are many requests and hopes for XP and credits for racing online to ease what some call a grind in GT Life.

Sheesh man I don't know what FM did to you but you sure seem like you have a little rage against it. Both games are good but there is always "opinions" about either game that just seem to be far reaching.

 

[prymet1me]

I also play and like both games. I do recommend trying GT5 with one of the Logitech wheels if you get the chance. It really does make the game 10x better than playing with a controller. Now I just wish Microsoft would work something out with Logitech so you could use their wheels with the Forza series.

A good wheel that can be used on both (and pc) would be great, but I play many game genres across ps3, xbox and pc so the price would have to be worth it. But man my nerd/geek meter would go through the roof If I got a wheel to play video games lol.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Not my point. The cars in Forza separate themselves very quickly into tiny groups.

The cars in GT5 actually stay together because unlike Forza, most are actually close in performance. In Forza, you've got the ZR1, 430S, & Superleggera just running away from the ACR & GT3RS on even the tightest tracks, where the latter should actually be keeping up without issue.

I know that wasn't entirely your point. I was just pointing out that no matter if you have groups in tiny little packs or if they are spread out, it doesn't seem to matter in these games because you are already leaps ahead of ALL of the AI no matter how they are organized or how close in performance they are.

What is the point of having them spread thin (your case Forza) or having them tight (your case GT5), when they are in your rearview mirror and beyond anyway.

 

[ShylockHolmes]

Well it depends man, most online race games the people that are not in the front say, I don't know first 4-6 positions quit the race if they fall too far behind. The running alone comment can be made for any racing game if you are either very far in front or behind the pack. And as far as GT5 online its all good but there are many requests and hopes for XP and credits for racing online to ease what some call a grind in GT Life.

Sheesh man I don't know what FM did to you but you sure seem like you have a little rage against it. Both games are good but there is always "opinions" about either game that just seem to be far reaching.

I like the FM series, but they're going in the wrong direction focusing on auction houses and autobraking, rewind newbie players and not focusing on more players online and more accurate tracks and physics. The unbalanced cars and fat straight tracks make sure you run alone. If you enter a 16 player race on the much narrower GT5 version of the north loop there is a pack of cars for much more of the race than FM3 can even hope to compete with.

How to play FM
1. Check leaderboard to see the one car that dominates the track/class you're going to race

2. Go to the storefront and download the fastest tune available for that dominant car on that track

3. Enter the race and join the other players all using the SAME car and tune as you.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I like the FM series, but they're going in the wrong direction focusing on auction houses and autobraking, rewind newbie players and not focusing on more players online and more accurate tracks and physics.

But they are focusing on more than just adding accessibility. They added autobraking and rewind, both of which are a couple simple features to generate more sales. Hardly a focus that was deterring them from racing simulation.

Auction house is an awesome online feature untouched by any racing sim, and welcomed by millions of sim fans. It's often one of the reasons the game gets higher ratings. The community loves the entire storefront and sharing cars, parts, tunes, builds, paint. We are hoping they continue to improve upon that.

You state that FM is "focused" on accessibility. It's good to have "optional" accessibility. The goal of any developer is to make money, and to appeal to a large audience. What I saw with FM3 was not so much focus on accessibility, but more focus on the racing and gameplay. They added roll overs, they added cockpit/interiors, they have the most physics calculations per second than any other console racer in FM3 (big improvement over FM2). They added nearly 200 more cars to appeal to more sim racing fans. They added tire deformation physics, on top of the already impressive list of physic features. They upped the livery layers from 1000 to 4000 layers, and improved the toolset. They upped the track selections/variations up to 115. They added the often requested drifting and drag racing (though drag racing still need a lot of work).

So adding a couple optional features that might help a new person to racing should hardly take away from the focus of Forza trying to be an excellent sim racer.

And your 3 steps on how to play FM? Serious? GT5:

1. Check the leaderboard....oh wait there isn't one.
2. Go to the used car dealer to get your 79 or older Japanese....oh wait...no seriously...wait a couple days until it's possibly available
3. Enter the race and join the other player all using the same car and upgrade options as you.

 

[ShylockHolmes]

But they are focusing on more than just adding accessibility. They added autobraking and rewind, both of which are a couple simple features to generate more sales. Hardly a focus that was deterring them from racing simulation.

Auction house is an awesome online feature untouched by any racing sim, and welcomed by millions of sim fans. It's often one of the reasons the game gets higher ratings. The community loves the entire storefront and sharing cars, parts, tunes, builds, paint. We are hoping they continue to improve upon that.

You state that FM is "focused" on accessibility. It's good to have "optional" accessibility. The goal of any developer is to make money, and to appeal to a large audience. What I saw with FM3 was not so much focus on accessibility, but more focus on the racing and gameplay. They added roll overs, they added cockpit/interiors, they have the most physics calculations per second than any other console racer in FM3 (big improvement over FM2). They added nearly 200 more cars to appeal to more sim racing fans. They added tire deformation physics, on top of the already impressive list of physic features. They upped the livery layers from 1000 to 4000 layers, and improved the toolset. They upped the track selections/variations up to 115. They added the often requested drifting and drag racing (though drag racing still need a lot of work).

So adding a couple optional features that might help a new person to racing should hardly take away from the focus of Forza trying to be an excellent sim racer.

And your 3 steps on how to play FM? Serious? GT5:

1. Check the leaderboard....oh wait there isn't one.
2. Go to the used car dealer to get your 79 or older Japanese....oh wait...no seriously...wait a couple days until it's possibly available
3. Enter the race and join the other player all using the same car and upgrade options as you.

Why do you refer to your opinion as "we" ?
I couldn't possibly care any less about the auction house and the rewind and autobrake are ridiculous and if it's meant to help sales it's as equally as dismal a failure as GT5 took only a few days to outsell FM3's 14 month run and will shortly eclipse sales of the entire FM series combined.

Painting isn't racing. Sure, I made a cool paintjob of vintage Canucks colours and all the logo's too, but I'd still take more fun tracks and improved gameplay over this.

The things turn 10 should focus on are firstly BALANCING THEIR GAME. Do you honestly think it's a coincidence that Dan Greenawalt drives an Audi S4 and it dominated how many classes in FM3? Also, looks like Audi sent some money MS' way for ad spots in the game, hmmm. AWD vipers and the like? I even converted a CLK-GTR to AWD, they need to balance this stuff out.

FM as a series still hasn't come close to matching the fun of the PGR series, so they need some more fun city tracks in the game and less ugly boring sedona's. Even the Cat and Mouse, virus, elimination, last man standing modes in FM3 matchmaking are all taken from the PGR online community.

FM3 has no browsable user lobbies, you're forced to preset matchmaking

Leaderboards are coming with an update for GT5. I seem to remember T10 erasing all the top 1000 times on every leaderboard in FM2 because they couldn't control cheaters. I lost all my times and stopped playing FM2. Only the top 1000 got wiped no one else. I can wait for working leaderboards and matchmaking when the update comes out.

You haven't played GT5 online. I can win with a different car than the other players 👍

 

[Bogie 19th]

Why do you refer to your opinion as "we" ?

We is those of us who enjoy Forza and the simulation direction.

I couldn't possibly care any less about the auction house and the rewind and autobrake

Good for you. Hate to break this to you, you are not everyone.

are ridiculous and if it's meant to help sales it's as equally as dismal a failure as GT5 took only a few days to outsell FM3's 14 month run and will shortly eclipse sales of the entire FM series combined.

Awesome, and great for GT5, though many couldn't possiblycare less how many copies of GT5 sells. We enjoy it, and that is all that matters. Just because Britney Spears sells more music than Metallica doesn't make her a better artist, lol.

Painting isn't racing. Sure, I made a cool paintjob of vintage Canucks colours and all the logo's too

You opinion is noted, but not shared by all.

, but I'd still take more fun tracks and improved gameplay over this.

Which Forza 3 has in spades.

The things turn 10 should focus on are firstly BALANCING THEIR GAME.

That I can agree with. The generation of sims are extremely unbalanced.

FM as series still hasn't come close to matching the fun of the PGR series, so they need some more fun city tracks in the game and less ugly boring sedona's.

We don't want games like GT and Forza to be an arcade racer like PGR. You are in the wrong crowd if you are looking for that. BTW, Sedona rocks.

Leaderboards are coming with an update for GT5. I seem to remember T10 erasing all the top 1000 times on every leaderboard in FM2 because they couldn't control cheaters. I lost all my times and stopped playing FM2. Only the top 1000 got wiped no one else. I can wait for working leaderboards and matchmaking when the update comes out.

Yup, and we will have cheaters on the GT5 leaderboards. Gonna suck, but oh well. It's nice that we are getting 155mb patches every couple weeks to finish a half baked game.

You haven't played GT5 online. I can win with a different car than the other players 👍

ok 👍

 

[ShylockHolmes]

We is those of us who enjoy Forza and the simulation direction.



Good for you. Hate to break this to you, you are not everyone.





Awesome, and great for GT5, though many couldn't possiblycare less how many copies of GT5 sells. We enjoy it, and that is all that matters. Just because Britney Spears sells more music than Metallica doesn't make her a better artist, lol.



You opinion is noted, but not shared by all.



Which Forza 3 has in spades.



That I can agree with. The generation of sims are extremely unbalanced.



We don't want games like GT and Forza to be an arcade racer like PGR. You are in the wrong crowd if you are looking for that. BTW, Sedona rocks.



Yup, and we will have cheaters on the GT5 leaderboards. Gonna suck, but oh well. It's nice that we are getting 155mb patches every couple weeks to finish a half baked game.



LOL, ok 👍

Thanks for the news flash "I'm not everyone". Says the guy who uses "we" when stating his opinion.

If you play online, you care how many copies a game sells. Those empty FM3 lobbies are no fun for anyone. Usually community type games are dependant on having a community, weird eh? You can listen to Britney Spears in your bedroom all you want, it will never be affected by other sales, why compare apples and oranges? That's a waste of time and IQ. Subway outsells them all so they are the best artists (sandwich artists)

I never said anything about making it an arcade racer (there's your "we" again, sigh), I said make it "fun". GT5 is much closer in racing fun to PGR than FM3 is. GT5 actually brought back memories of playing PGR and FM made me miss PGR.

At least "we" (used in proper context, haha) agree on the unbalanced part

You must forget those half baked T10 games that corrupted peoples save files after 100's of hours work sometimes, glitched cars, cars that shot ahead like they came out of a cannon when rear-ended...oh the irony....

 

[Bogie 19th]

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[prymet1me]

I will only say this much, GT5 sold many copies due to the brand and anticipation. There are many fans that love the game and many fans that are disappointed in the game also. Online GT5 has the bragging right of lobbies but many of those lobbies are terrible and many of them are filled with terrible racers. ALL FM lobbies for classes are not full or even empty, but I have had fun with the muscle car lobby the past two weeks. Also the game has been out a year and for the most part its on what I like to call the ADD console because users jump from one game to the next.

I bounced around a few rooms last night and there were many oval races set up, many rooms that were just drag races set up. The leader board argument is a little silly, you honestly think if PD ever gets a leader board set up that shows the car with the time that others wont use the same car for the quickest times? There will always be a car that dominates times on racing game leader boards.

Now granted the PI system in Forza was just GENIOUS, but they should make some tweaks to it and defiantly get rid of the drive train swaps. With the feedback from the FM community I have faith it will disappear along with only real race cars being R Class. The latter can be fixed by bringing back the U class.

I really feel like T10 have much better to build on after playing GT5. I like GT5 but as everyone has stated over and over again it feels rushed. Time will tell if PD will support the game long term.

 

[ShylockHolmes]

Even when leaderboards are added, one particular car never dominated Prologue so I doubt it will in GT5, yet every FM to ever come out has had one car dominate, it all started with the CRX remember? I sure remember all those "NO CRX" heading lobbies, lol.

Whatever car Greenawalt is driving when he makes FM4 will probably dominate that game too, haha! I have a Trans Am WS6 and in real life it'd blow the doors right off an Audi S4, but not Greenawalts "sim" world. It's funny too he spews "360 physics calculations/sec" and people who don't know any better lick it up. Yeah well Sebring sure doesn't feel like I'm driving over slabs of concrete, so if it doesn't translate to gameplay it's just developer babble.