Why is the popular opinion that TCS is cheating?

[Veinz]

Why?

It kind of defeats the whole purpose of a wheel. Why even buy a wheel if you are going to use this? It’s not a good way for a beginner to start because it becomes a crutch right off the bat and doesn’t teach you anything but bad habits.

 

[MatskiMonk]

It kind of defeats the whole purpose of a wheel. Why even buy a wheel if you are going to use this?

Because it's easier to spin when using a wheel, so a wheel user who is enjoying the immersion of a wheel (which is the absolute only reason to buy a wheel in my opinion), can actually drive over a camber change in a powerful car without backing it into the barriers. The argument is no different than for TCS or ABS - it's a bridge between a players actual skill level and where the skill level needs to be to achieve what they want to in game - a wheel doesn't change that.

For the record I don't use CSA, and I try not to use TCS above 1... I don't consider it 'cheating', and it doesn't matter in terms of solo play. As soon as you start comparing results it does start to matter though. I'm also usually faster on a pad and have already had to pick up the Dual Sense controller to pass a couple of missions, because it's been so hard to control the car with my T-GT. Even CSA on weak with a wheel isn't as easy to control as CSA off on the Dual Sense.

 

[timekiller001]

Wasn't CSA pretty OP in GT Sport, at least at the beginning?
Thats what I remember about it, maybe it was banned from Sports mode because of that

 

[Veinz]

Because it's easier to spin when using a wheel, so a wheel user who is enjoying the immersion of a wheel (which is the absolute only reason to buy a wheel in my opinion), can actually drive over a camber change in a powerful car without backing it into the barriers. The argument is no different than for TCS or ABS - it's a bridge between a players actual skill level and where the skill level needs to be to achieve what they want to in game - a wheel doesn't change that.

For the record I don't use CSA, and I try not to use TCS above 1... I don't consider it 'cheating', and it doesn't matter in terms of solo play. As soon as you start comparing results it does start to matter though. I'm also usually faster on a pad and have already had to pick up the Dual Sense controller to pass a couple of missions, because it's been so hard to control the car with my T-GT. Even CSA on weak with a wheel isn't as easy to control as CSA off on the Dual Sense.

If it’s no different to tc and abs then why was it banned in sport mode?

 

[Barry R]

Personally i dont use assists except ABS. If someone wants to use it then that is upto them. I tried the TCS at a mates.. didnt like it.
If the option is there to use it, then whats the problem?

 

[MatskiMonk]

If it’s no different to tc and abs then why was it banned in sport mode?

Don't know, that's up to PD. Perhaps to enforce a minimum standard of skill.

 

[pedrocor]

It isn't, and to me at least, has never been considered cheating. The only one that I've seen people get their knickers in a twist over is Countersteering Assistance - heard a lot of people call that cheating. In Sport I had it on as I found it helped me enjoy the game, in 7 I find it a bit too unnatural feeling... To each their own.

Well, Countersteering Assistance, at least in GT Sport, would help balance the car by adding speed. Actually you would go faster than physically possible. The "real world" driving assists, like TCS or ESM act by reducing power delivery or even applying braking, effectively reducing raw performance, not increasing performance like CA which accelerates the "tight" wheels to match the speed of the "loose" ones

 

[pedrocor]

If it’s no different to tc and abs then why was it banned in sport mode?

Don't know, that's up to PD. Perhaps to enforce a minimum standard of skill.

Maybe because, contrary do ABS, TCS or ESM, there isn't a real world driving aid similar to CA, as laws of physics don't work that way.

 

[Dreadmed]

Definitely not an opinion I've seen widely circulated, and for those who parrot it loudly and widely... well, from my reckoning it's a minority view and you're free to ignore them. I've seen plenty of racers at the top tiers from GT Sport who used TCS, if only to get away smoothly from the line on standing starts.

 

[soc123_au]

Jesus. I posted the thread where I referred to TCS as cheating and you've blown it way out of context. I was pretty clear that I was challenging myself to not use TCS in GT7, as a personal challenge for me to learn to control cars without it. So I'm my head, I would refer to TCS as cheating because I'm trying to not use it for personal challenge (and really enjoying it).

I don't care if other people use it, and as I said in that thread, I did wind up using TCS to gold a mission.

To each their own.

I knew what you really meant, just the way you worded it gave me a laugh and reminded me of more elitist comments I'd seen previously. The daily race thread in the Sport section was a special for it. Your comment just put it front and centre and I thought it was discussion worthy. Something a bit different to the whinging about the game threads. No offence intended.

I am also surprised that the majority that have responded use it. I expected it to go the other way.

 

[jrbabbitt]

Jesus. I posted the thread where I referred to TCS as cheating and you've blown it way out of context

All one has to do around here is use that bloody "C" word and we all get stirred up to no end...

 

[Barra333]

I rarely used TCS in GT Sport, but the very tail happy GT7 physics have forced me to go back to TCS1. TCS1 is faster for me with most cars because having the rear wheels overtake the front is not a very fast way around any circuit.

 

[mwoodski]

Because it's easier to spin when using a wheel...

Citation needed, because this is the exact opposite of what I've found in nearly every game with wheel support.

 

[Gt79]

By that acc

I'd like it to be car specific, an older car that was around before anyone had ever heard of TCS shouldn't have the option to turn it on but modern day Ferrari's and like should have it

Same goes for abs, none of the racing cars or any cars pre 80s had them, yet I see all the pro racing utubers using abs, which is unrealistic asf

 

[mwoodski]

By that acc

Same goes for abs, none of the racing cars or any cars pre 80s had them, yet I see all the pro racing utubers using abs, which is unrealistic asf

GT3 cars in real life have ABS because they need to cater to a ton of Am drivers.

 

[OJBrit]

I used to have the TCS on in the old F1 games as it was very sensitive. I took it off on GTS when I saw that I could handle without it in the game as it was largely forgiving.

I'm enjoying the new physics and I am not inclined to turn it on soon. It will hopefully help my driving skill rise to above what it was on GTS.

If people want to use it then that's on them, it's slower but if it helps keep them racing that's brilliant. Certainly not cheating though.

 

[MatskiMonk]

of what I've found in nearly every game with wheel support.

I've only used a wheel with Gran Turismo (and a tiny bit with the Dakar game but that nearly broke my rig, and wrists). The input smoothing from a controller allows faster response to a slide, and less likelihood of over correcting. It was possible to get the Motec data logger iexports from GT6 to produce speed sensitive steering angle graphs that showed the differences between the inputs that the game gets from the controller versus a wheel (I was using T500RS at the time). Simply the amount of lock, and how quickly it's applied, has to be done more accurately on a wheel than it does by the wheel. This was evident also in the GTA test at Spa, where controller users couldn't apply enough lock with the stick to get through Eau Rouge at the same speed as wheel users because the input was too smoothed. I don't see anything in GT7 yet that makes me think it's not the same. Drifting aside it's most noticeable on banked tracks such as Daytona or Blue Moon.

Some games are apparently **** with a controller (PCars IIRC?), PD does a great job with controller support, but perhaps it makes it too easy, and perhaps it's not the case in games with worse controller support.

 

[Jump_Ace]

Me, Pre-Assetto Corsa Competizione: TCS only slows you down.
Now: TCS helps maintain speed.

I only want to go as fast as I can, whether that means to use TCS (and in other more extreme cars also use ASM/CS) so be it. Try playing ACC with TCS off and let me know how it goes In previous GT games it was viewed as a stability safety net for those new to sim-racing since it stabilized the car. However with those physics, it wasn't really needed as one could control the cars pretty easily for the most part. But now with these new physics, things have changed a bit lot, for the better.


Jerome

 

[Voodoovaj]

Cheating is when you break the rules to your advantage.

TCS is allowed, ergo, not cheating. It's often slower even. Maybe some people feel the need to be macho

 

[JDMKING13]

Me, Pre-Assetto Corsa Competizione: TCS only slows you down.
Now: TCS helps maintain speed.

I only want to go as fast as I can, whether that means to use TCS (and in other more extreme cars also use ASM/CS) so be it. Try playing ACC with TCS off and let me know how it goes In previous GT games it was viewed as a stability safety net for those new to sim-racing since it stabilized the car. However with those physics, it wasn't really needed as one could control the cars pretty easily for the most part. But now with these new physics, things have changed a bit lot, for the better.


Jerome

This is real talk!!! I tell people you ever try to play ACC with TCS off?? I learned the hard way also… Im pretty fast in GTS not alien but I can hold my own… Got on ACC with the same mindset and the first turn spun crazy!!! I’m like ohhh this is why TCS was on! I use it in AC also. When I had to use it in GT7 I just smiled and said finally!!

I can manage with low powered cars easy, high powered is a different story 😂 I also run all my cars true to their real life counterpart… so if a car doesn’t have ABS I don’t use it same goes for any electronic aid… My 930, No abs No, tcs, No Asm and it’s a dream to drive!!

 

[NotThePrez]

I'm of the opinion that you should use whatever assists you want and should feel no shame for it, but learning how to drive without assists does make you a better driver, as it forces you to be more mindful of your inputs when racing. Over time this teaches you how to get the most out of a car, and also how to deal with its characteristics in adverse situations (i.e., learning how to left-foot brake 911s in Dirt Rally 2.0).

Of course, part of this is also down to the physics of a game and how the assists are implemented. I can't speak about GT7, but in Forza for instance, having TCS and other assists on objectively slows you down. If you look at the leaderboards, nearly all of the Top-100 times are done without assists, because TCS and Stability Control take speed away from you by limiting how much power you can put down, or limiting how much braking force you can use if you have ABS active. The physics model for those games (especially the Horizon games) is still accessible enough to where very few cars give me trouble without assists, and any that do can usually be rectified with tuning.

On the flipside, GRID Legends has a few cars that I keep assists on for, as I'm not talented enough to keep some of the higher-end cars on the road, and the rather bare tuning options means I can't always use tuning to get a car to behave in the way I want. That's a case of me using assists to keep my speed up to stay competitive.

Like I said, don't feel any shame in using assists, as it's ultimately a game, and you should be playing to have fun. If someone truly believes that using TCS is cheating and is throwing abuse your way because of it, frankly they're an idiot.

 

[CodeRedR51]

In the past I have not used anything but ABS default. And I'm fine running the same in GT7, however I've started to use TCS 1 in races just so I can feed in the throttle a little quicker. Even then it still tries to step out, but I can save it a bit easier instead of instantly looping it.

 

[meekrab]

This is real talk!!! I tell people you ever try to play ACC with TCS off?? I learned the hard way also… Im pretty fast in GTS not alien but I can hold my own… Got on ACC with the same mindset and the first turn spun crazy!!! I’m like ohhh this is why TCS was on! I use it in AC also. When I had to use it in GT7 I just smiled and said finally!!

I can manage with low powered cars easy, high powered is a different story 😂 I also run all my cars true to their real life counterpart… so if a car doesn’t have ABS I don’t use it same goes for any electronic aid… My 930, No abs No, tcs, No Asm and it’s a dream to drive!!

GT3 cars are engineered to be driven using TCS. The throttle mapping is turned up to 11, you ask for power, you get power NOW.

If you want an example, drive the 911 GT3 R and the 911 GT3 Cup car in ACC back to back. Both rear engine flat sixes and basically the same power output within ~25hp, but the Cup car doesn't have TCS so the throttle response is not as sharp.

 

[JDMKING13]

GT3 cars are engineered to be driven using TCS. The throttle mapping is turned up to 11, you ask for power, you get power NOW.

If you want an example, drive the 911 GT3 R and the 911 GT3 Cup car in ACC back to back. Both rear engine flat sixes, but the Cup car doesn't have TCS so the throttle response is not as sharp.

Thank you my friend for the information. I do know this already and this was one of the reason I was glad TCS could be used in GT. Doesn’t the cup car also not have ABS?

 

[meekrab]

Thank you my friend for the information. I do know this already and this was one of the reason I was glad TCS could be used in GT. Doesn’t the cup car also not have ABS?

The "base model" Cup car doesn't come with ABS, but it has ABS sensors (similar to GTE cars, you might notice the lights on the dash of some racecars that light up when the ABS engages / brakes lock) and you can retrofit it. The car in ACC does have ABS with 2 levels of adjustment, I believe.

 

[HyperSpeeder]

Because sim racers are snobs who want to prove how "macho" they are by wrestling a car that clearly wasn't designed to be driven without the assists.

I mean, when they removed the active suspension from the FW16, Senna deemed the car undrivable. He's quoted as saying "goddamn it, when it's finally my turn, they shat on the car". That's how bad it was. It took Williams months and months of development to bring it up to par with the Benetton, and if Senna hadn't died you wouldn't be hearing the end of it.

Drift modes in modern cars are all fluff - they're all faster with the assists.

 

[JDMKING13]

The "base model" Cup car doesn't come with ABS, but it has ABS sensors (similar to GTE cars, you might notice the lights on the dash of some racecars that light up when the ABS engages / brakes lock) and you can retrofit it. The car in ACC does have ABS with 2 levels of adjustment, I believe.

Ohhhhh ok gotcha! Yea I knew it had abs me and a group of buddies run those when we play… I just thought it was wrong it had ABS thanks for clearing that up!

 

[Mr_D]

I only use authentic assists. Driving a 70's car with ABS and TCS is not immersive to me. I also use an H-shifter when the car has one originally. Makes the game more fun to me.
At the same time when I drive a modern supercar I use paddle shifters and all the assists it gives me, but only up to the level where I need it, I don't like electronics unneccesarly interfering with the driving.

 

[DodgySyrup]

I run 1 or 2 TC, depending on the car...though, like brake bias, torque distribution etc...I'll change it on the fly in certain situations.

For me, I couldn't care less if some people think it's "cheating".

Ultimately, it comes from an elitist attitude which says that you should dedicate your entire life (outside of work) to the hobby of sim racing - and if you can't, or won't, do that, then you should face online/social media ostracisation...or something.

 

[Gt79]

Cheating is when you break the rules to your advantage.

TCS is allowed, ergo, not cheating. It's often slower even. Maybe some people feel the need to be macho

You are out of touch, playing God like sim gran turismo with a gamepad considered to be a blasphemy
it's wheel only or don't even talk to me hahaha
Meanwhile has abs enabled in f1 pffft