Why is the popular opinion that TCS is cheating?

[Adrenaline]

I'll start by saying I don't care. In my experience in GT games, every single assist will slow you down, EXCEPT Skid Force Recovery from GT5, which you could actually exploit.
So from that perspective, I don't care what assists anyone uses, because you're just hurting yourself as far as I'm concerned.

The reason there is a negative stigma about it though is very simple. It's a driving aid. It's something that the car does automatically to enhance the ability, or lackthereof, of the driver. By that measure, you are using a computer algorithm to benefit yourself.

This is a game where the intent is to compare your driving skill to another's. So it's only logical to have a negative outlook on something that is doing part of the driving for you.

BUT not everyone plays GT7 for the same reason. Some just want to have fun, they want to casually race cars, etc. So those assists need to be in the game as the player base is a massive spectrum of skill and desire.

Yes, I understand that traction control is real. But so it's autonomous driving, if I hook my PS5 to my computer and create a version of SOFY (?) and let it race the game for me to crush the competition, would you be okay with me saying "It's on real cars too, so it's okay!". Unlikely.

I want to repeat, I'm only explaining the logic and reasoning behind the stigma. I support anyone using whatever assists they need to get themselves around the track the quickest they can and have the most fun, because at the end of the day this is the game.

I don't shame anyone for what they use, but I urge all my friends to turn all assists off, if they want to get faster. The game is brand new, don't waste the first weeks of the game learning to drive all new physics and handicap yourself with an assist. Take this time and do the entire learning curve all at once. Otherwise you'll always be setting yourself up for a 2nd learning curve down the road if you ever decide to make the change.

It's all lines in the sand. How much control are you willing to allow a computer have if your car rather than the human, and where do you draw the line in acceptable, regardless of real world.

If the computer shifts for you? AT vs MT
If the computer brakes for you? ABS
If the computer modulates throttle for you? TCS If the computer controls pitch\yaw\roll? ASM CSA
If the computer auto drives? Autonomous.
Can the computer show us the apex?
Or the braking zone?
Or the driving line?

Every person will draw the line somewhere in what they feel is acceptable for a human vs computer to manage for the driver. But it's all lines in the sand. All, nothing, or keep to yourself; in my opinion.

 

[Gt79]

I only play games to have fun, i got enough real life challenges to deal with
However if the car is untuned and undrivable I will use at least tc1, it makes accelerating out of the corners easier without me spinning like a yoyo, this game in particular has very brutal snap oversteer compared to anything I played before, just not fun and unrealistic

 

[DodgySyrup]

I'll start by saying I don't care. In my experience in GT games, every single assist will slow you down, EXCEPT Skid Force Recovery from GT5, which you could actually exploit.
So from that perspective, I don't care what assists anyone uses, because you're just hurting yourself as far as I'm concerned.

The reason there is a negative stigma about it though is very simple. It's a driving aid. It's something that the car does automatically to enhance the ability, or lackthereof, of the driver. By that measure, you are using a computer algorithm to benefit yourself.

This is a game where the intent is to compare your driving skill to another's. So it's only logical to have a negative outlook on something that is doing part of the driving for you.

BUT not everyone plays GT7 for the same reason. Some just want to have fun, they want to casually race cars, etc. So those assists need to be in the game as the player base is a massive spectrum of skill and desire.

Yes, I understand that traction control is real. But so it's autonomous driving, if I hook my PS5 to my computer and create a version of SOFY (?) and let it race the game for me to crush the competition, would you be okay with me saying "It's on real cars too, so it's okay!". Unlikely.

I want to repeat, I'm only explaining the logic and reasoning behind the stigma. I support anyone using whatever assists they need to get themselves around the track the quickest they can and have the most fun, because at the end of the day this is the game.

I don't shame anyone for what they use, but I urge all my friends to turn all assists off, if they want to get faster. The game is brand new, don't waste the first weeks of the game learning to drive all new physics and handicap yourself with an assist. Take this time and do the entire learning curve all at once. Otherwise you'll always be setting yourself up for a 2nd learning curve down the road if you ever decide to make the change.

It's all lines in the sand. How much control are you willing to allow a computer have if your car rather than the human, and where do you draw the line in acceptable, regardless of real world.

If the computer shifts for you? AT vs MT
If the computer brakes for you? ABS
If the computer modulates throttle for you? TCS If the computer controls pitch\yaw\roll? ASM CSA
If the computer auto drives? Autonomous.
Can the computer show us the apex?
Or the braking zone?
Or the driving line?

Every person will draw the line somewhere in what they feel is acceptable for a human vs computer to manage for the driver. But it's all lines in the sand. All, nothing, or keep to yourself; in my opinion.

Ultimately, choice is the most important thing.

If you want to run automatic gearbox, TC turned up to 5, driving line on etc...you can.

You want to use manual gears, no TC etc...you can.

That's all that matters, in my opinion - and like you say, it's usually slower with assists so there's that.

 

[ebadevil]

Here's the cold, hard truth:
1. TCS is free in terms of PP
2. A proper tune will eat away like 30pp from your max and make you have to neuter your car to get under regulation
3. Therefore TCS, sports suspension and full hp is undoubtedly the superior option in GT7

 

[Adrenaline]

Here's the cold, hard truth:
1. TCS is free in terms of PP
2. A proper tune will eat away like 30pp from your max and make you have to neuter your car to get under regulation
3. Therefore TCS, sports suspension and full hp is undoubtedly the superior option in GT7

Strongly disagree.

No amount of PP will matter, if you're only half throttle. And that's what TCS does in this game, it cuts your throttle input. It's far too simplistic to pretend that more PP and TCS on, will beat a good tune, and full throttle.

Luckily your standpoint is incredibly easy to defeat. The fastest drivers in the world, don't use TCS. If TCS was faster, as you claim, they would. Period. Pull up any replay you like, watch the aids, and see what they do or don't have on. It's not very difficult to decipher what results in the quickest lap times.

Additionally, because this is a game, some of the fastest drivers actually exploit wheel spin to artificially increase rotation through corners using extremely high LSD Accel settings, and using the rear end slide, to pin point the apex. This is not possible with TCS cutting power. It was very prominent in 5, and Sport, to be seen on 7, but early indicators are it's still very much a thing.

 

[ebadevil]

Strongly disagree.

No amount of PP will matter, if you're only half throttle. And that's what TCS does in this game, it cuts your throttle input. It's far too simplistic to pretend that more PP and TCS on, will beat a good tune, and full throttle.

Luckily your standpoint is incredibly easy to defeat. The fastest drivers in the world, don't use TCS. If TCS was faster, as you claim, they would. Period. Pull up any replay you like, watch the aids, and see what they do or don't have on. It's not very difficult to decipher what results in the quickest lap times.

Additionally, because this is a game, some of the fastest drivers actually exploit wheel spin to artificially increase rotation through corners using extremely high LSD Accel settings, and using the rear end slide, to pin point the apex. This is not possible with TCS cutting power. It was very prominent in 5, and Sport, to be seen on 7, but early indicators are it's still very much a thing.

Yeah of course, but the previous versions of the game didn't make you choose between a tune or 100 extra hp. This one does. But also LSD seems to have minimal impact on PP, when I say "tune", I really mean suspension. That just eats away at your PP.

 

[Adrenaline]

Yeah of course, but the previous versions of the game didn't make you choose between a tune or 100 extra hp. This one does. But also LSD seems to have minimal impact on PP, when I say "tune", I really mean suspension. That just eats away at your PP.

I know what you meant, but I'll try to phrase insa more concise way.

More PP at half throttle is not faster than less PP at full throttle. Within reason of course.

A good tune that gets 450hp to the road without TCS, will out run a default tune with 500hp that uses half throttle out of every turn to prevent tire spin.

 

[ebadevil]

I know what you meant, but I'll try to phrase insa more concise way.

More PP at half throttle is not faster than less PP at full throttle. Within reason of course.

A good tune that gets 450hp to the road without TCS, will out run a default tune with 500hp that uses half throttle out of every turn to prevent tire spin.

Yeah I would imagine it's also track dependent. I tried it on HSR and Tsukuba. As you can imagine, Tsukuba was faster with better handling but lower hp. On HSR, I personally couldn't make up enough time in the corners. But I'm by no means an elite driver. I'm gonna try it on some more balanced tracks. I imagine you might be right for the higher skill drivers that can really take advantage of every bit of the car. I just wonder if for your average driver, 100hp and mashing the gas on TCS might be a better overall option?

 

[DodgySyrup]

Strongly disagree.

No amount of PP will matter, if you're only half throttle. And that's what TCS does in this game, it cuts your throttle input. It's far too simplistic to pretend that more PP and TCS on, will beat a good tune, and full throttle.

Luckily your standpoint is incredibly easy to defeat. The fastest drivers in the world, don't use TCS. If TCS was faster, as you claim, they would. Period. Pull up any replay you like, watch the aids, and see what they do or don't have on. It's not very difficult to decipher what results in the quickest lap times.

Additionally, because this is a game, some of the fastest drivers actually exploit wheel spin to artificially increase rotation through corners using extremely high LSD Accel settings, and using the rear end slide, to pin point the apex. This is not possible with TCS cutting power. It was very prominent in 5, and Sport, to be seen on 7, but early indicators are it's still very much a thing.

What about in the wet?

Do you think there's any use for (at least?) some TC in wet conditions?

That extra rotation you spoke of can quickly become unmanageable oversteer in the wrong situation.

Yes, subtle throttle control is the key - but can TC aid you in those more unpredictable conditions?

 

[Kean_1]

I expected a bit more opposition tbh. Ha ha. It's stiil early though.

....or maybe it's just not the issue you thought it was for most people. I hadn't really given a thought about anyone's negative opinion on the topic of it's use until I stumbled on your thread.

....btw, I also use TCS but typically only on race cars or others that make a lot of power. I rarely go above 1 during a race though. Sometimes higher depending on the car or if the race is long and tires start getting greasy.

 

[s0cks]

It's because TCS in older games slowed you down too much unlike modern TCS in real life (where it makes you faster). So it garnered a bit of a stigma.

 

[JustMac]

....or maybe it's just not the issue you thought it was for most people. I hadn't really given a thought about anyone's negative opinion on the topic of it's use until I stumbled on your thread.

....btw, I also use TCS but typically only on race cars or others that make a lot of power. I rarely go above 1 during a race though. Sometimes higher depending on the car or if the race is long and tires start getting greasy.

On that second point, definitely experiment with turning off TCS on the racecars. I have found road cars in GT 7 to be far harder to drive without TCS..playing with the 180SX and the Shelby GT350 today and they were both really tricky even on a DD wheel.

 

[Adrenaline]

Do you think there's any use for (at least?) some TC in wet conditions?

Any time a strategy is involved, in which the point isn't to attack as hard as possible, then TCS definitely has it's place.
Wet conditions, tire wear, fuel saving, things of that nature.

Daily Race C is a perfect example, Gr3 at Daytona Road Course, when you are qualifying, TCS will hurt you. It's a single lap, tire and fuel wear are off, and it's all or nothing, with no consequences if you wreck. But, once the race starts, now wear is on, you have to manage your tires for at least 5, sometimes 10 laps, fuel is an issue, and your goal is the have the fastest 10 laps combined. In that scenario, minimizing tire spin, or fuel burn, that extends the life of your tires, reducing fall off over the race, shorters pit stops, etc... suddenly TCS can absolutely be beneficial. Most of us bypass TCS, and just short shift for the same effect, but it reduces slip to avoid tire wear, reduces RPMs to drop fuel usage, but still allows you to use the throttle to steer the car to a degree... but you get the idea.

There's a time and place for everything. My main point was the claim "3. Therefore TCS, sports suspension and full hp is undoubtedly the superior option in GT7" is dead wrong. And that if you want to advance at this game, now is the perfect time to learn to drive without this assist.

We're all learning new physics, we have new grip limitations, tire models, braking points have changed, hell even the tracks are modeled differently. NOW is the best time to start fresh, and just learn to drive under the least amount of assists possible. I played GTSport up until 2 weeks prior to 7's release, and 90% of my drive time is in Gr3 cars. I have to re-learn all of my braking points, entries, exit, how to handle bumps and curbs, I'm basically re-learning all of my visual queues for every track. Lap times are down across the board, grip is down across the board, so if we're all learning these... why learn all that stuff... and then still use TCS? Ditch it now, and just make it a single learning curve for yourself, that will greatly benefit you in the long run.

If you get to a point and decide "I just can't do it." that's okay. There's nothing wrong with TCS if you need it. It's just my personal opinion, that in 99% of all racing scenarios, you'll be faster without it, due to how it's modeled in video games. Real life cars, are a completely different situation, because the computers and processors are purpose built to min/max grip of all 4 corners, at all times, based on a million variables of the car, and it can perform them in milliseconds. The TCS in GT7, is basically an on/off switch of your gas pedal. They're not comparable.

 

[Kean_1]

On that second point, definitely experiment with turning off TCS on the racecars. I have found road cars in GT 7 to be far harder to drive without TCS..playing with the 180SX and the Shelby GT350 today and they were both really tricky even on a DD wheel.

Will do although I really only have the 358 Gr3 I've been using for appropriate events and then a Mustang for Gr4 that I'm using for now. ....been pretty successful with both but I'm looking forward to obtaining and trying out more in these classes.

The TCS setting on 1 works best for me on the controller for now. I also turned ABS to "default" recently just to see if made enough of a difference from "weak". It's not that I felt I was struggling with it but since I started doing better in some events after the switch, I left it on. ....."off" is just too much for me to deal with on some cars.

 

[Streeto]

In real life using TCS and ESP etc. is usually slower than having them off, because obviously it restricts power in situations where it would be faster to have 100% power.

In my eyes it's just a safety mechanism for road vehicles, like ABS, and has no real part to play on a race track, other than reducing the chance of you binning it of course.

Edit: There may be an argument for it's use in wet conditions, but that's probably all.

 

[meekrab]

I know what you meant, but I'll try to phrase insa more concise way.

More PP at half throttle is not faster than less PP at full throttle. Within reason of course.

A good tune that gets 450hp to the road without TCS, will out run a default tune with 500hp that uses half throttle out of every turn to prevent tire spin.

This is a false dichotomy, because if the TCS is cutting throttle to 50% there's no chance you could apply full throttle at that point without spinning anyway.

 

[LSFDRX]

This is a false dichotomy, because if the TCS is cutting throttle to 50% there's no chance you could apply full throttle at that point without spinning anyway.

But you can choose to apply more than TCS would allow, up and to the point of wheelspin, which can be a higher threshold than TCS is willing to allow.

 

[LSFDRX]

I think the issue that some egos come up against is when it comes to comparison, and when you have someone who uses TCS or other aids against someone who isn't. There isn't really a fair comparison in most cases because it's like a mesh of different game difficulties all one one track at the same time. You can have someone with all assists on next to Mr. no aids and whoever wins is the "fastest", but I'm one of those that would argue "no".

If you're using driving aids then you aren't fully learning how to control the cars in game. That is simply a fact. You may be faster with aids on, but you're not better at the game, or sim driving. It is up to everyone to use the crutches they feel helps them enjoy the game the most, but in direct competition you can't lump the driving aid players in with the no-aids player because the footing isn't equal, and there is clearly more skill required for not using any. I've seen a couple of tutorial videos on YT where creators are telling others how to beat gold while all of the driver aids are busy flashing away on the screen, and to me, that makes little sense.

If you watch a speed-run of a game, difficulty matters. Its a fact that in games legendary is harder than easy, veteran than recruit, insane vs casual, and this is true for pretty much any game worth playing. In the case of driving games, the guys who play on "easy" (aids on) sometime compare themselves directly to those who play on "hard". That isn't a fair comparison at all, and easily bruises the fragile egos of some of us "sim-racers". But when it comes to comparison of driving skills like lap times, missions, license testing etc., a person not using aids is objectively better at the game than someone who is.

I personally use ABS on weak, and that's it, because I want to know how to control the car full stop, and have a long life of real driving experience to use. Though at times its frustrating, the ability and reward that comes from it wouldn't exist for me if anything else was on. That doesn't work for everyone.

WITH ALL THAT SAID. Please do what you feel is the best, and most fun! Those of us in either camp need to watch our egos, and try to not step on the toes of those that play different from us.

 

[BloodRaven]

I've seen it quite a bit since I joined the forum. I just saw a post in one of the other threads a few minutes ago referring to as cheating.

What's so funny, and ironic about them saying it's cheating, is that while they're saying it's cheating, they're also saying it makes you slower.

Wouldn't cheating make you faster/better?

 

[Adrenaline]

This is a false dichotomy, because if the TCS is cutting throttle to 50% there's no chance you could apply full throttle at that point without spinning anyway.

If you don't read the conversation, you make yourself look very ignorant.

2 different tunes, 2 different power levels.

 

[soc123_au]

What's so funny, and ironic about them saying it's cheating, is that while they're saying it's cheating, they're also saying it makes you slower.

Wouldn't cheating make you faster/better?

It's just ego and elitism from those that do it. Thinking that anyone is actually impressed with your driving chops related to pixel cars around a pixel track.

Those that do drive without it to challenge themselves and enhance their own fun, well all I can say is more power to you. The attitude of the majority contributing to the thread has been great, as users it covers the spectrum of those who do, those that dont and those that swing both ways. The consensus has been just do whats most fun for you. A nice change of pace from a lot of the more negative threads lately.

 

[CnPx]

Why? Most real cars have been fitted with it for the last 20 years. It's a tool to be used. I swear some of the people in here carry on like a supermodel is going to touch their happy place for winning a race without it. Hot tip, they wont.

I know it was faster with it off in Sport in most cases, but here it's one of things that they actually fixed.

Its not cheating lol. Cheating is when you change the games code to make your car go twice as fast and steer twice as well 😂
TCS is a feature in the game and it's actually slower to use in a lot of cases then if you can handle cars well without using it.
It's also good to help learn how to drive in the game. I would argue that some cars literally require it for the best driving experience.

Who ever said that is just being salty and needs to learn how to enjoy the game more. He also need to have better sportsmanship rather then blame other things. You will never improve if you never accept when you are at fault. That is assuming he doesn't like it because he is loosing to someone who is using it.

 

[CnPx]

I'd like it to be car specific, an older car that was around before anyone had ever heard of TCS shouldn't have the option to turn it on but modern day Ferrari's and like should have it

I would disagree. Traction control is difficulty assist. But I think it should work in different ways depending on the car and it should be accurate to how that cars traction control is in real life as some cars it works better then others. Like I am quite sure traction control in modern cars it actually decreases power to individual wheels rather then older cars it slows down the hole car.
I think in older cars before traction control was invented it should just di-accelerate because this is just the person sat inside the car doing that. I like to call him/her the GT Stig (Gran Turismo Stig).

 

[O604]

One thing I always meant to do but never learned to do was activate TCS when re spawning. Just like with a standing start. I've got to practice that.

 

[Tenacious D]

I'm not shy in admitting that I use whatever keeps these cars from wrecking. In previous GTs I rarely used anything but a tick of traction control, except for a few wild stallions. With GT7 physics, some of these cars are secretly depraved psychopaths which want to eat my soul. So sometimes, I use a full cup of 7.62 ammo.

 

[Stakado]

The problem comes when somebody uses tc and is faster than you without tc. Then comes the cheating thing and damaged egos
In real life tc is mandatory in GT4, GT3, even F1...
If tc 1 is making you slower you are driving bad. Period
Tell a real professional driver that is cheating using tc. He will laugh

 

[xMAXIx79]

Unfortunately, I also see some very arrogant and overbearing people here, for my taste it is more those who do not accept TCS and openly or indirectly claim that people who use TCS are worse drivers.

It's like this now, if I move a car in the limit area without losing grip, the TCS doesn't work either. If I now lose grip, the TCS works and slows down the wheels or the car. If a driver without TCS loses control and spins, or even has to countersteer massively and greatly reduces power, then he is at that moment slower than a driver who either has not used too much power, or one who is through TCS was rescued. Is this really a Good/Better Driver who was too slow because he didn't use TCS? No, this driver made a mistake and lost control. The other driver with TCS was the better one, not because he can drive better or has better control of his car.. no, he's better because he was smarter or more careful and just used everything he was allowed in the game.

A really really GOOD driver does not often lose control, nor does a driver with TCS follow him or compete against him. As others have already written, the really really good drivers sometimes use the unstable driving condition of a car to get around corners faster, which is not possible if TCS intervenes.
So it's like this, if you lose to a driver with TCS in a race, it's your own fault and not as good as you think, in short simply overbearing/arrogant.

But of course it is easier to blame others for one's own deficits and to present them as the worse ones.

Can it be that a player who only drives with TCS is overwhelmed without TCS..? Of course nobody disputes that, why should they, because it is a fact that driving without TCS is more difficult and requires far more sensitivity.

And something else for everyone out there that I haven't read here yet.. there are countless players who are restricted in some way and definitely need help with driving/playing, why is it always done like that or brought across as would these players be "worse" too?

I prefer to drive against/with others who use all the systems that the game offers, so they can keep up with me and then give me a fair, balanced race, than against sometimes extremely arrogant egoists, who can be faster in 4 out of 5 cases, but then make blatant mistakes and sometimes ruin the race for others.

 

[odeepaanh]

I can’t really remember the last time I heard someone say that it was cheating. Most people say to not have it on because most of the time in games, it’s faster. Race cars in real life are a bit of a different story because if I’m not mistaken, traction control systems which are used in real life racing cars are much more accurate and precise with how much slip it allows. In a lot of racing games, it’s very easy to be better at managing wheelspin yourself than how it’s programmed in the video game. One of the outliers though is assetto corsa competizione, because the traction control model in that game is modeled to be as close as possible to the real life GT cars. Hence why in that game using traction control is actually faster, and why most if not all the people who play the game use it. Whereas in other racing games, like Gran Turismo for example, with the way traction control is programmed, it’s very easy to do a better job than the game is at managing the throttle. This is from my understanding and if I’m wrong feel free to correct me. In fact this entire thing may be completely incorrect and I’m just talking out of nothing but this is what I think I remember hearing when reading into this

I personally run no traction control all the time in every car no matter how powerful, because I’ve gotten used to it and it just feels weird to have someone else cutting off the throttle for me. In ACC tho I do run some traction control.

When it comes to traction control being free choice in a lobby it shouldn’t really be anyones business what setting you use, but it makes sense when some lobbies turn it off to make it an equal playing field and to really test skill

In real life tc is mandatory in GT4, GT3, even F1...

I know this is being reallllly pedantic but F1 banned all assists some time ago, including traction control. Your point still stands though

 

[Tenacious D]

Video games need to do a better job than reality in communicating with the player what the car is up to, because we don't have all the sensory inputs we do in real life. All we have are tire squeal and FFB for those of us with wheel controllers. And an iffy g force indicator which is only a general tool, as if any of us do more than glance at it occasionally. Maybe with this patch, things are much improved, but I'm going to wait for the server issue to get sorted because I'm still thick in Luca's menu hunt.

With only five hours sleep, writing likely isn't happening, so maybe I should fire up Fallout 4 today. It should keep me from peeking at the dismal world news. I "love" our leaders...

 

[LSFDRX]

Can it be that a player who only drives with TCS is overwhelmed without TCS..? Of course nobody disputes that, why should they, because it is a fact that driving without TCS is more difficult and requires far more sensitivity.

This is kind of the crux of debate.

All hubris aside, only objective fact here. The player who needs TCS does so because they have a harder time controlling the car. This is exactly the same as saying they aren't as "good" as the player without TCS. They have not learned to properly control their inputs, and race strategy is not equal to car control, which is where the "better" aspect lies.

They may have used a better strategy, but that strategy is also limiting the amount they have to do to compete. If we extrapolate that to full on auto driving, would the person using it to win still be considered the "better driver"? Absolutely not.

This isn't saying that it is unfair for people to use it against those who don't, but if all things were equal assist wise, there would be stark differences between those who rely on assists to make it around the track in one piece, and those who haven't.