Why Kaz needs to go...

Do you think Kaz should retire from GT?

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Tornado
It's too bad that they added the publicity stunt amazing aerodynamic wunderkind to a game that originally didn't actually model downforce increasing with drag. The problem being that Sony absolutely paraded its performance in GT5 as "proof" of its theoretical capabilities.
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GT5 originally did model downforce increasing with drag.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/downforce-and-drag.152330/

Newey's design and Red Bull's CAD software were the responsible of the theoretical performance of the X2010.

newey1nhszn.jpg


newey2kns5v.jpg
 
Zer0
GT5 originally did model downforce increasing with drag.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/downforce-and-drag.152330/
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No, it didn't. Not to an appreciable degree. That was one of the main things that the 2.08 patch did. There is extensive testing showing the differences. Far moreso than a thread in the drag forum using one car, with every other post not really saying anything related to the point in the OP.


This was common knowledge, too, so you can't really rewrite history about it either. Max downforce was almost always faster prior to that patch, because the top speed was barely affected (or not at all affected with the ridiculous drafts taken into account) but cornering speeds were far higher. The carryover aerodynamic glitches from GT2 (and maybe GT1) also still afflicted GT5 drag calculation, as also shown by the above testing.

Zer0
Newey's design and Red Bull's CAD software were the responsible of the theoretical performance of the X2010.

newey1nhszn.jpg


newey2kns5v.jpg
Click to expand...

That's an insightful, not at all relevant article to what I said.
 
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Tornado
No, it didn't.

That's an insightful, not at all relevant article to what I said.
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Yes, it did... or the tests would not show top-speed differences between Min, Default and Max downforce settings. Even the OP from my drag link did agree after a proper testing.

From your testing link:

Gran Turismo Red Bull X2011 Prototype
Downforce/ v.2.07/ v.2.08/ Change
Min............ 316.0... 340.3....(+24.3)
Default....... 293.8... 293.8.... same
Max........... 276.1... 237.1....(-39.0)

The patch press release description:
"-Amount of air resistance change when altering aerodynamic wing settings has been increased."

What you initially claimed:
"originally didn't actually model downforce increasing with drag"

Obviously not true.

The article is relevant to what SlipZtrEm said and you initially quoted me:
"the creations don't have to have any basis on reality. See the Nike car, see the X2010 at it's most extreme performance capabilities"

I'm still not sure what is your "problem" with Sony regarding all of the above.
 
Zer0
Yes, it did... or the tests would not show top-speed differences between Min, Default and Max downforce settings. Even the OP from my drag link did agree after a proper testing.

From your testing link:

Gran Turismo Red Bull X2011 Prototype
Downforce/ v.2.07/ v.2.08/ Change
Min............ 316.0... 340.3....(+24.3)
Default....... 293.8... 293.8.... same
Max........... 276.1... 237.1....(-39.0)

The patch press release description:
"-Amount of air resistance change when altering aerodynamic wing settings has been increased."
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Thank you. I definitely didn't see any of this when I linked it to you.



Perhaps you would be so kind as to respond to the bits you cut from my post when you quoted it?


Zer0
What you initially claimed:
"originally didn't actually model downforce increasing with drag"

Obviously not true.
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And what I initially claimed was obviously miswritten (since downforce doesn't increase with drag in anything, because it isn't a direct relationship in that way), which is why I clarified exactly what I meant in the following post (and probably why you're ignoring that) where I provided the links.



Though it's interesting that you so quickly jumped on that after deliberately taking SlipZtrEm's post out of context, then cutting most of my response out to instead respond to what suited you.

Zer0
The article is relevant to what SlipZtrEm said and you initially quoted me:
"the creations don't have to have any basis on reality. See the Nike car, see the X2010 at it's most extreme performance capabilities"
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The issue being that theoretical performance goals, and an article talking about how the car was designed to meet them, aren't the same as the reality of its performance capabilities. Hence "at it's most extreme performance capabilities." Ask the Walrus-nose BMW, which had a lot more time and money put into it than the X1 could have ever dreamed of, why.


And the only proof we have of what its extreme performance capabilities are is GT5 in its initially released state.


Zer0
I'm still not sure what is your "problem" with Sony regarding all of the above.
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I'm not sure how much clearer "Sony absolutely paraded its performance in GT5 as "proof" of its theoretical capabilities" can be written, sorry.
 
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Zer0
"Red Bull say they don’t know how much it would cost to build the car but it theoretically could be done. The design obeys all physical laws."

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/01/12/adrian-newey-on-the-red-bull-x2010/
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Ah. I figured it'd only be a matter of time before you dropped by to characteristically cherry-pick only select parts of posts to "disprove". Tell me again how many G's a driver would sustain in the X2010? Tell me how it has any reference points to real life; not just CAD data and its performance in GT. Given the various glitches that have sprung up in every iteration of GT, from the wheelie glitch of the PS1/PS2 games to the drafting and tire issues with the PS3 games (not forgetting the ride height problems), you'll have to forgive me for not taking a fantasy car's performance within the game as somehow proof of its performance out of the game.

This also says absolutely nothing about the Nike car, still. It's okay, you're not the first to ignore it.

The article is relevant to what SlipZtrEm said and you initially quoted me:
"the creations don't have to have any basis on reality. See the Nike car, see the X2010 at it's most extreme performance capabilities"
Click to expand...

Quick tip: ignoring rest of the line following the Red Bull's mention is precisely missing the point. I recognize I shouldn't find this even remotely surprising from you, but if you're going to try to convince anybody of the X2010's realism, you may want to start actually addressing it.
 
Tornado
Now, one can certainly argue that the series has gotten worse overall since the first game, but I personally wouldn't; if for no other reason than the second game is my favorite. Someone could even argue that the attention to detail in the series is no less than it ever was, as TenEightyOne was (unintentionally) arguing. But I'm looking down a game that not only ignored dozens of separate issues with car accuracy since they were introduced in the series (some of them in GT3, some in GT4, most in GTPSP, but a not-inconsequential number new with each game since) despite all of PD's grandstanding about "unprecedented manufacturer access"; but went so far as to make it implied with GT6's release that they are purposely ignoring them in favor of pursuing raw numbers and making the cars the way they want them rather than how they actually were, so if someone was to disagree they would hopefully bring some sort of substance to the debate.
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I'm not quite sure how to respond to this precisely, so I'll give it my usual Lombax try.

As groundbreaking as GT2 was for its time, I don't think it translates well into the PS2 era, and forget the PS3. While you may find things captivating about it, to me it's only commendable in a historic sense. And I have more than a sneaky hunch that chads of gamers are going to agree with me. Put GT2 and GT6 side by side and let a number of people play both, I think most of them are going to end up ignoring GT2. Asked why, they will likely say that GT6 is better in about every way. While the differences between GTR1 and Race Room are probably less distinct other than in graphics, I suspect that the same conclusion would be drawn.

I could be wrong, but human nature being what it is, one man's fatal flaw will be another's pea under a mattress. And even with tech savvy gamers, the older GT sections are pretty much graveyards. I see no enthusiasm from anyone over the GT legacy in any way, shape or form. Nostalgia, yes, but that's another human condition entirely. I think you would be better served keeping criticism of Gran Turismo to the "slow to advance in some areas" approach.
 
What does any of that have to do with attention to detail; which, again, was the only thing I was ever talking about? Did you read nothing beyond the part where I said the second game was my favorite (though why you would take issue with that I'd have no idea), or are you just projecting the same point that you tried to force out of what I said the first time?

Tenacious D
I think you would be better served keeping criticism of Gran Turismo to the "slow to advance in some areas" approach.
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I think you would be better served responding to things people are actually saying before you start giving advice over what they should be saying.
 
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HKS racer
After this aero discussion I think the truth is way more simple and harsh than these 18 pages of thread.

Kaz has to go because GT5 and GT6 sucks.

As simple as that.

Let's be honest with ourselves.
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It's Kaz's game, you only bought a license to use it.
 
Maybe game design isn't Kaz's thing anymore, or something like that. I highly doubt replacing him will fix things because be honest and don't try to deny it, GT will become more worse. Look what happen to Ridge Racer with Unbounded. You can't find anyone who's like Kaz.
 
TokoTurismo
Maybe game design isn't Kaz's thing anymore, or something like that. I highly doubt replacing him will fix things because be honest and don't try to deny it, GT will become more worse. Look what happen to Ridge Racer with Unbounded. You can't find anyone who's like Kaz.
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I agree in the sense that it would most likely become something else. If better or worse is then probably a matter of perspective.
 
TokoTurismo
Maybe game design isn't Kaz's thing anymore, or something like that. I highly doubt replacing him will fix things because be honest and don't try to deny it, GT will become more worse. Look what happen to Ridge Racer with Unbounded. You can't find anyone who's like Kaz.
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We need people like Kunos. Or Assetto Corsa on Console.
And if SMS can bring some good phisics into Project Drool we finally have a serious contender on PS4.
pyrates
I agree in the sense that it would most likely become something else. If better or worse is then probably a matter of perspective.
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Something else? GT5 and GT6 became something else!
People we need a GT4 style Gran Turismo that was the real Gran Turismo! When Race Events and Career Mode made sense you know. And we are talking about 10 bloody years ago. Now they lost their mind completely.
 
pyrates
I agree in the sense that it would most likely become something else. If better or worse is then probably a matter of perspective.
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Agreed.
HKS racer
We need people like Kunos. Or Assetto Corsa on Console.
And if SMS can bring some good phisics into Project Drool we finally have a serious contender on PS4.
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Project Drool? Never heard of it. I mean I heard of Project "CARS" but not "Drool". :sly:
 
TokoTurismo
Maybe game design isn't Kaz's thing anymore, or something like that. I highly doubt replacing him will fix things because be honest and don't try to deny it, GT will become more worse. Look what happen to Ridge Racer with Unbounded. You can't find anyone who's like Kaz.
Click to expand...

I disagree. Kaz is still expanding the genre boundaries. Has any other developer planned GPS course maker, projects similar to VGT or GT Academy?

Even if GT fails, these are things that will influence the direction of other games for years to come.
 
Tornado
What does any of that have to do with attention to detail; which, again, was the only thing I was ever talking about?

...I think you would be better served responding to things people are actually saying before you start giving advice over what they should be saying.
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Well, sorry but I'm not a mind reader. You toss out "attention to detail" as if it had some discreet, universal and easy to grasp meaning. So what exactly do you mean? A long and varied single player career? You might be thinking of GT4. Detailed tracks and car models? That would be GT5 and 6. Sounds? Again, GT6. Weather and time of day stuff, technical details or whatever? You think maybe you could have been more specific or something?

Excuse me if I don't dig playing "guess my meaning" tag with you, because it's tedious and frustrating, and neither one of us seem to get a kick out of it. At least I don't.

HKS racer
Yeah I've also heard about Project Screenshot. Really hope they get the physics right! Don't want they remain drooling screenshots only. We need GT/Forza alternatives on console asap.
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I know that several of you guys are really hot n bothered over Project CARS, so it had better be something epical, or you'll never hear the end of it.

It has the potential, but it needs to be a lot more than a PC sim with a sprinkle of features from GT and Forza. It also had better come out this year, or the dissing will be endless. I'm looking forward to a sim with some goodies in it, because Gran Turismo and Forza both really have made an impact on the racing genre and in a good way. But it does mean that the sim makers like SMS need to see how much of those genes can be spliced in properly to make their games successful, not to mention a joy to play. If P CARS is what Shift, Forza 5 and GT6 wanted to be, they'll have won, but that is a really hard target to hit. Let's hope they hit it, or it will only be competition to other sims.
 
jimipitbull
I disagree. Kaz is still expanding the genre boundaries. Has any other developer planned GPS course maker, projects similar to VGT or GT Academy?

Even if GT fails, these are things that will influence the direction of other games for years to come.
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The thing is Kaz smoked too much weed after GT4 and went for the experimenting visionary pr marketing side of things completely forgetting about gameplay, career mode, sound... you know, all those things that make a racing game a good racing game.
 
Tenacious D
I know that several of you guys are really hot n bothered over Project CARS, so it had better be something epical, or you'll never hear the end of it.

It has the potential, but it needs to be a lot more than a PC sim with a sprinkle of features from GT and Forza. It also had better come out this year, or the dissing will be endless. I'm looking forward to a sim with some goodies in it, because Gran Turismo and Forza both really have made an impact on the racing genre and in a good way. But it does mean that the sim makers like SMS need to see how much of those genes can be spliced in properly to make their games successful, not to mention a joy to play. If P CARS is what Shift, Forza 5 and GT6 wanted to be, they'll have won, but that is a really hard target to hit. Let's hope they hit it, or it will only be competition to other sims.
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Why would it be endless cause you say so and you're probably hoping it fails cause you can try to put PD on higher pedestal than you already do? Also I've never seen you post on the PCars thread so not sure what features you're talking about that are sprinkled from GT and FM. Also it's funny you bring up Shift since they made that game...so I'm guessing you only know of SMS by word of mouth and not actually trying to study up on them which is fine some cant be bothered, but they should if they're going to argue the subject. Also even if it is delayed I could accept that far more than I can big title games that have deep pocket financial backers that own them, which SMS doesn't.
 
HKS racer
Yeah I've also heard about Project Screenshot. Really hope they get the physics right! Don't want they remain drooling screenshots only. We need GT/Forza alternatives on console asap.
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Project Delay? They really should have released a demo or prologue for PS3 and xbox 360.
 
I don't think kaz needs to go however, I do think his ideas may have out grown the home based platform that Playstation provides.
 
Tenacious D
I know that several of you guys are really hot n bothered over Project CARS, so it had better be something epical, or you'll never hear the end of it.

It has the potential, but it needs to be a lot more than a PC sim with a sprinkle of features from GT and Forza. It also had better come out this year, or the dissing will be endless. I'm looking forward to a sim with some goodies in it, because Gran Turismo and Forza both really have made an impact on the racing genre and in a good way. But it does mean that the sim makers like SMS need to see how much of those genes can be spliced in properly to make their games successful, not to mention a joy to play. If P CARS is what Shift, Forza 5 and GT6 wanted to be, they'll have won, but that is a really hard target to hit. Let's hope they hit it, or it will only be competition to other sims.
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As long as Project Screenshot will have good physics, a career mode that make sense a decent livery editor and no evil scheme DLC rip offs you can diss it as much as you want, I will not care.

If PCars fails you can troll me at will, but once again we will have only GT/Forza for our console convenience which is not good. Not at all.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
Why? Not every game releases a demo or prologue, just because GT does it doesn't mean others should or will.
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That's not the reason.

Outside of a few forums, pcars is relatively unknown. A demo or prologue could spark a lot of interest. The combined user base of PS3 and xbox360 is about 160 million. It was originally slated for this generation, but they decided to delay it.

Plenty of games release demos.
 
HKS racer
As long as Project Screenshot will have good physics, a career mode that make sense a decent livery editor and no evil scheme DLC rip offs you can diss it as much as you want, I will not care.

If PCars fails you can troll me at will, but once again we will have only GT/Forza for our console convenience which is not good. Not at all.
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If what you mean is that we just need more racing games on PS4, and it doesn't matter what they are, you could have just said so.

Having some PC sims on PS4 like the litter of next gen racers (Race Room, rF2, Assetto Corsa and P CARS) will be fine, but with the possible exception of PCARS they won't do well. And neither T10 or PD will pay them much notice.
 
Tenacious D
If what you mean is that we just need more racing games on PS4, and it doesn't matter what they are, you could have just said so.
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It DOES matter what they are. Since I'm not interested in Drive Club because I prefer motorsport racing to that thing.

I'm sure some people will love Drive Club but it's not for me!
 
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