Why Kaz needs to go...

[Tenacious D]

So do the VGT cars require effort from PD in your opinion? Because the outsourcing for Forza isn't really on topic. Booting Kaz because he focuses on the wrong stuff is.

Well, you brought up outsourcing, and many here do without anything other than the intent to state it's a magic solution to all content problems, which it isn't. It's almost always pricier, the modeling shops have to make a profit on top of paying bills after all, and models may not mesh the same in the game engine versus what your own people can accomplish.

In any case, Imari posted a quote from the GT website stating that no matter if the data is culled by PD or provided by the manufacturer, the development time for a car model is still six man-months work. And that makes sense, as pouring over a car probably doesn't take more than a few days, including sound recordings. With laser scanning, maybe a day or two. So I'm taking PD at their word on that.

 

[danielc]

Also the project has been going for alegedly 2+ years, so they probably have a few of those ready by now...
Mercedes vgt is like a mansory/gemballa/ruf packaging of a sls, and the car is in the game already, so much less development there.

 

[cassiusclay99]

They are the consumer products and they are PR. Just like your shoes or your cell phone or your Coca-Cola bottle.

Racing is definitely PR, Audi wouldn't have a motorsport team if they couldn't use it to brag about their cars. Every time an Audi is successful on the racetrack, it's good PR for the brand. If all of their cars were to break down in Le Mans it would be bad PR.

So you think I don't know that brands engage in competitions to get more exposition and sell more cars?

Come on man...

Let me phrase it this way: production cars exist. When you put them in a game, anyone can compare their specifications/behaviour with the real ones. They represent a REAL know-how from the manufacturer. ANd their virtual avatar is a real "know-how" from the dev.

Now VGT prototypes, show no "know-how" as they are only virtual. The manufacturers will obviously cheat saying they can build this car, with this engine, and it would drive this fast and turn this well... but at the end of the day, we ll never know. THIS IS PURE PR. (not the design obviously ok... )

VGT cars DON'T exist: they ARE PR. Plain and simple.

Btw, being able to compare the simulator with the REAL thing IS what makes it a simulator. Otherwise, why not play Wipeout?

 

[eran0004]

So you think I don't know that brands engage in competitions to get more exposition and sell more cars?

Come on man...

Let me phrase it this way: production cars exist. When you put them in a game, anyone can compare their specifications/behaviour with the real ones. They represent a REAL know-how from the manufacturer. ANd their virtual avatar is a real "know-how" from the dev.

Now VGT prototypes, show no "know-how" as they are only virtual. The manufacturers will obviously cheat saying they can build this car, with this engine, and it would drive this fast and turn this well... but at the end of the day, we ll never know. THIS IS PURE PR. (not the design obviously ok... )

VGT cars DON'T exist: they ARE PR. Plain and simple.

Btw, being able to compare the simulator with the REAL thing IS what makes it a simulator. Otherwise, why not play Wipeout?

No, I'm just reminding you that PR is everywhere. And while you're right about the VGT cars being PR, that's not all there is to it.

The concepts may be fictional, but all the theory is there. It got engine(s), tyres, aerodynamics, downforce. To input those values in the physics model is no different than inputing the values of a real car. As long as the theory is realistic, the concept is realistic.

And engineering aspects apart, a concept is more than anything else a way to envision cars. If we didn't have to stick to what's cheap enough to work on the market, if we didn't have to design a car to pass the crash test with 5 stars, if we could make cars the way we dream of making them, what would they look like? What would they be like to drive? The looks have previously been easy to do, but the driving has been more difficult, unless you built a working prototype.

A simulator does not only have to have real cars. As long as the physics are right, you could build any kind of imaginary car and test it in the simulator to see what it would drive like (roughly, a simulator isn't 1:1 with reality).

Of course you can play Wipeout if you like that kind of game, but it has nothing to do with cars - at least not the way we will know them for the coming hundred years. I can't say anything about its physics model, because I haven't played it.

 

[Swagger897]

That's not what I'm saying.

I know that's not what your saying but what you did say was incorrect to what they actually do.

Saying something incorrect and then defending it does not make it correct.

 

[eran0004]

I know that's not what your saying but what you did say was incorrect to what they actually do.

Saying something incorrect and then defending it does not make it correct.

I said something incorrect and then you said I said something else (that I didn't say) that was also incorrect?

And what was incorrect about what I said?

 

[Swagger897]

So... Now you acknowledge what you said was wrong?

Anyways, here's what you said (which I bolded initially) that was wrong..

...Audi wouldn't have a motorsport team if they couldn't use it to brag about their cars. Every time an Audi is successful on the racetrack, it's good PR for the brand. If all of their cars were to break down in Le Mans it would be bad PR.

The bold statement is incorrect. The technology on their cars are derived from their Motorsport, not the other way around...

Another thing I said, was that I've nevertheless seen a PR campaign which "brags" about their products. It's always a story, simply stating what the cars can do. It all really started with the ski jump advert climbing up in the Quattro.

However, bragging to me is like Lexus and Buick constantly comparing to Audi saying "blah blah blah" when half of the stuff they compare to is false, claiming such as more power than an Audi A4.... Blah blah. Well they are comparing just one engine to their top car so that's like the biggest kid on the field picking on the pip-squeak..

Anyways, everything else you've said about the simulator I agree to, such as having a fictional aircraft makes it still a simulator..

 

[PepeMickey]

So you're interested in car design, but you're not interested in car design?

Anybody who understands form and perspective can't get a job at Mercedes-Benz. It takes a lot more than that.

But anybody can sketch a car and drop a Mercedes badge on it, this is exactly what these VGT cars are, actual design is far more complex and it focuses on the needs of the user.

These VGT cars are just a way to show-off what the designers can do when they don't have to worry about functionality and production costs. Even real concept cars are aimed at something, these VGT cars, like other have said, are just PR stuff.

 

[Swagger897]

But anybody can sketch a car and drop a Mercedes badge on it, this is exactly what these VGT cars are, actual design is far more complex and it focuses on the needs of the user.

I'm pretty sure that's not the intent of what the VGT was about. I interpreted it as where the company would like to see them be in so many years... And what technology can be expected. Which is really what concepts are, concepts of what companies want to be able to do and they get their opinions from the media and that makes the decision a go or no go...

However, VGT is also a show-off or bragging rights to other driving games out there, by saying "look at us, we are getting all the major manufactures to make cars just for us, and only us..."

 

[Tenacious D]

(erm... maybe I'll just step aside after all...)

 

[eran0004]

But anybody can sketch a car and drop a Mercedes badge on it, this is exactly what these VGT cars are, actual design is far more complex and it focuses on the needs of the user.

These VGT cars are just a way to show-off what the designers can do when they don't have to worry about functionality and production costs. Even real concept cars are aimed at something, these VGT cars, like other have said, are just PR stuff.

Those are designed in house, not by some random bloke who just dropped a badge on it.

Actual consumer products are dumbed down and compromized because they need to cater for a lot of different needs. These concepts are design studies and shows a concept in it's purest form. They do have a very specific aim: What is their vision of a GT car?

This is the kind of stuff that Auto & Design magazine is full of.

http://www.autodesignmagazine.com/

@Swagger897

The bold statement is incorrect. The technology on their cars are derived from their Motorsport, not the other way around...

Yeah, I'm not saying it's the other way around though. Not anywhere do I mention which technology comes from where.

What I'm saying is that if car makers wouldn't get a PR boost from their motorsports activities, they would all back out of it. If Audi had to race under a secret pseudonym and wasn't allowed to tell anyone that they were participating in motorsports, they would surely pull the plug on it. The PR value is essential. They do use motorsports for more pusposes than just PR, such as developing new technology, but if PR is taken out of the equation, they'd withdraw.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

VGT gets a lot of manufacturers involved in GT, more involvement than they have had in the past, and more than any other game. It's mutually beneficial for the manufacturers, PD/Sony, and fans of driving/racing.
I can see no negative aspect to VGT.

It gets very few automobile manufacturers in the game that weren't already present - some, like Alpine, are just woefully represented currently. Ask a fan of Alpine vehicles what they'd like to see in GT, an A610/GTA or some flight-of-fancy wheeled Wipeout creation; I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine most enthusiasts would prefer cars with real, actual relevance be included over what amounts to little more than another Red Bull X car. I don't want to have to go dig up the hilarious description of how the Nike car would've supposedly derived power in GT4...

Kaz and Co stake their reputation on realism, so no, some imaginary cars aren't the best way to go about capitalizing on that. And if people want to go back to the concept of GT being a sort of automotive encyclopaedia; well, those tend to reference things that actually exist*. If GT is an automotive encyclopaedia, the VGT cars are made-up chapters that serve about as much use as an entry for the Sarlacc in a compendium on animals.

* - as more than a life-size sculpture/model.

If you're interested in car design then concept cars is where the frontline is. Is it PR? Of course it is, anything they put their brand on is PR. The car you drive to work every day is PR. Formula 1, DTM, BTCC and Nascar is PR. That doesn't mean that there's nothing more to it than PR though.

I'm interested in car design, absolutely. I spend hours in driving game Photomodes enjoying the details on cars I'll probably never get to get close to. I submitted a final paper a few years ago about Bangle's work at BMW. But I have very little interest in seeing a game that already has myriad issues with it's gargantuan, problem-filled car list use some designer drawings as a means to further pad that list on its never-ending quest for the highest number (see the second Merc VGT as the epitome of that). Sure, you can regurgitate the same talking points that PD leans on for the Vision GT project - that of "furthering ties with the industry" or something similar - but what I'd think would show a much greater relationship between, say, BMW and PD, would be fleshing out the massive gaps in their existing representation in the game, to give both enthusiasts and casuals a better idea of what BMW is really all about. Not some roundel'd version of the GTbyCitroen that will be forgotten in a year by anybody who doesn't play GT.

 

[PepeMickey]

Those are designed in house, not by some random bloke who just dropped a badge on it.

Actual consumer products are dumbed down and compromized because they need to cater for a lot of different needs. These concepts are design studies and shows a concept in it's purest form. They do have a very specific aim: What is their vision of a GT car?

This is the kind of stuff that Auto & Design magazine is full of.

http://www.autodesignmagazine.com/

@Swagger897



Yeah, I'm not saying it's the other way around though. Not anywhere do I mention which technology comes from where.

What I'm saying is that if car makers wouldn't get a PR boost from their motorsports activities, they would all back out of it. If Audi had to race under a secret pseudonym and wasn't allowed to tell anyone that they were participating in motorsports, they would surely pull the plug on it. The PR value is essential. They do use motorsports for more pusposes than just PR, such as developing new technology, but if PR is taken out of the equation, they'd withdraw.

That's the tricky part of industrial design, you might not like it but if someone as a designer thinks he's over it and too self-centric, he's not a very good designer after all.

I worked for Nissan a while ago, we did something similar to a VGT car, we were in-house designers but we were basically sketching stuff up and calling them Nissans, they asked for a form that had Nissan's brand character and that it looked like something shaped by the wind, it didn't have to be a car.

We were basically doing what we are doing on the VGT thread, I'm sorry but that's not designing, it doesn't if you're talented or not, you're just developing a sketch.

 

[Tenacious D]

Kaz and Co stake their reputation on realism, so no, some imaginary cars aren't the best way to go about capitalizing on that. And if people want to go back to the concept of GT being a sort of automotive encyclopaedia; well, those tend to reference things that actually exist*. If GT is an automotive encyclopaedia, the VGT cars are made-up chapters that serve about as much use as an entry for the Sarlacc in a compendium on animals.

Oh, I'll go ahead and poke some sticks into the fire as I don't want to go to bed, why not?

The thing is, these car companies are going to design outlandish concept cars anyway. This is a way for them to produce concepts that don't take forever to realize and aren't insanely expensive, unless they want to go that extra step and produce a physical model like Mercedes did. They get their concepts, done virtually and much more affordably. But there is one difference, in that we get to play with their creations.

The car companies are the ones who are clamoring for the opportunity. More participated than were approached for the idea. If you guys want to blame anyone, you have to include everyone.

And just briefly on the Nike 2020, that was a bit much. However, the Technological Singularity is going to happen at some point and things are going to be a little crazy, unless God comes back and makes us humans and computers play nice together. Regardless, technology is going to explode to the point that the Nike car may just be a toy, as almost anything will be possible.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Oh, I'll go ahead and poke some sticks into the fire as I don't want to go to bed, why not?

The thing is, these car companies are going to design outlandish concept cars anyway. This is a way for them to produce concepts that don't take forever to realize and aren't insanely expensive, unless they want to go that extra step and produce a physical model like Mercedes did. They get their concepts, done virtually and much more affordably. But there is one difference, in that we get to play with their creations.

The car companies are the ones who are clamoring for the opportunity. More participated than were approached for the idea. If you guys want to blame anyone, you have to include everyone.

And just briefly on the Nike 2020, that was a bit much. However, the Technological Singularity is going to happen at some point and things are going to be a little crazy, unless God comes back and makes us humans and computers play nice together. Regardless, technology is going to explode to the point that the Nike car may just be a toy, as almost anything will be possible.

I actually like the VGT Concept, and have been a fan of it from the beginning. I think it's a great idea to bring real manufacturers closer to the GT franchise, or any sim franchise for that matter. Lot's of good can come from it. Fantasy cars will never be the meat and potatoes of the franchise but it's ok to have a few of them hanging around. They're also exclusives at this point which is a good selling feature. It'll never appeal to everyone playing the game but nothing does, that's a given.

The problem is, I don't want the VGT Concept cars to up a huge amount of effort that could be used to make real cars. You see I actually fell for the "one track per month DLC" ploy along with "regular DLC cars" and promises along those lines. The longer this goes on where we get very, very few new real cars, the more inclined I am to think that once again PD has made promises they cannot keep. It's much too early to draw that conclusion but the regular monthly track DLC has already fallen by the wayside and new real cars are almost zero in more than 3 months. It's not looking good.

 

[Tenacious D]

The problem is, I don't want the VGT Concept cars to up a huge amount of effort that could be used to make real cars.

This is one of the several points where we see eye to eye. I can just imagine what the reaction would be if Kaz admitted that they could have worked on getting some of the Koenigseggs, several more Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Jaguars, Aston Martins, BMWs... you name it. But they had to drop them from consideration because the team had to model these 27 concept cars, or however many. I'm sure the fans would be just a bit disconcerted over this.

But, history is what it is, and we're getting them regardless of whether we want them or not.

 

[Johnnypenso]

This is one of the several points where we see eye to eye. I can just imagine what the reaction would be if Kaz admitted that they could have worked on getting some of the Koenigseggs, several more Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Jaguars, Aston Martins, BMWs... you name it. But they had to drop them from consideration because the team had to model these 27 concept cars, or however many. I'm sure the fans would be just a bit disconcerted over this.

But, history is what it is, and we're getting them regardless of whether we want them or not.

We both know that admission will never happen so we'll be left to deduce it on our own and my guess is it won't be hard to figure out.

 

[Tier 2 Racing]

This is one of the several points where we see eye to eye. I can just imagine what the reaction would be if Kaz admitted that they could have worked on getting some of the Koenigseggs, several more Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Jaguars, Aston Martins, BMWs... you name it. But they had to drop them from consideration because the team had to model these 27 concept cars, or however many. I'm sure the fans would be just a bit disconcerted over this.

But, history is what it is, and we're getting them regardless of whether we want them or not.

This is the part of game development I'm truly interested in.

I believe in the statement, "where there is a will, there is a way." With that in mind, I do wonder what was traded for some of the content we have now.

 

[eran0004]

That's the tricky part of industrial design, you might not like it but if someone as a designer thinks he's over it and too self-centric, he's not a very good designer after all.

I worked for Nissan a while ago, we did something similar to a VGT car, we were in-house designers but we were basically sketching stuff up and calling them Nissans, they asked for a form that had Nissan's brand character and that it looked like something shaped by the wind, it didn't have to be a car.

We were basically doing what we are doing on the VGT thread, I'm sorry but that's not designing, it doesn't if you're talented or not, you're just developing a sketch.

I'm sorry, but that is design. And yeah you're right, it doesn't matter if you're talented or not. If you're not talented it will probably be bad design and if you're talented you'll hopefully do something good. Still design, though.

I'm interested in car design, absolutely. I spend hours in driving game Photomodes enjoying the details on cars I'll probably never get to get close to. I submitted a final paper a few years ago about Bangle's work at BMW. But I have very little interest in seeing a game that already has myriad issues with it's gargantuan, problem-filled car list use some designer drawings as a means to further pad that list on its never-ending quest for the highest number (see the second Merc VGT as the epitome of that). Sure, you can regurgitate the same talking points that PD leans on for the Vision GT project - that of "furthering ties with the industry" or something similar - but what I'd think would show a much greater relationship between, say, BMW and PD, would be fleshing out the massive gaps in their existing representation in the game, to give both enthusiasts and casuals a better idea of what BMW is really all about. Not some roundel'd version of the GTbyCitroen that will be forgotten in a year by anybody who doesn't play GT.

Adding an old BMW would further pad the car list on their never-ending quest for highest number just as much as adding a concept car. n+1 is still n+1.

 

[jimipitbull]

It gets very few automobile manufacturers in the game that weren't already present - some, like Alpine, are just woefully represented currently. Ask a fan of Alpine vehicles what they'd like to see in GT, an A610/GTA or some flight-of-fancy wheeled Wipeout creation; I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine most enthusiasts would prefer cars with real, actual relevance be included over what amounts to little more than another Red Bull X car. I don't want to have to go dig up the hilarious description of how the Nike car would've supposedly derived power in GT4...

Kaz and Co stake their reputation on realism, so no, some imaginary cars aren't the best way to go about capitalizing on that. And if people want to go back to the concept of GT being a sort of automotive encyclopaedia; well, those tend to reference things that actually exist*. If GT is an automotive encyclopaedia, the VGT cars are made-up chapters that serve about as much use as an entry for the Sarlacc in a compendium on animals.

* - as more than a life-size sculpture/model.
.

All cars begin on the drawing board. Or made up chapters if you prefer that terminology. Merc VGT is hardly a wipeout creation, and it is now being produced in limited numbers.

I'm sure plenty of enthusiasts would prefer exclusive concepts, as opposed to another supercar which is already featured in other games.

 

[machschnel]

I'm sure plenty of enthusiasts would prefer exclusive concepts, as opposed to another supercar which is already featured in other games.

I think most people would be happy with anything the way things are going. Wasn't something said about a "quantum leap" for DLC?

 

[pyrates]

I think most people would be happy with anything the way things are going. Wasn't something said about a "quantum leap" for DLC?

They didn't say in which direction, though.

 

[fatkid]

Of course racing cars are PR for manufacturers. Nascar racers are a prime example; they use

 

[andryush]

I never felt that much disappointed by GT games before... GT2, GT3, GT4, GT5P, GT5, every one of them was great for me. Every one of them felt new, different and unique in some way. I even bought first DLC in my life for GT5!!! But GT6 is probably worst instalment in the history of the series. It just feels to me like incomplete GT5 but with more content. Something bad is going on wit the series, and low sales numbers show that too.

 

[JackC8]

The game's just not going anywhere. Handling's been improved a little bit, that's nice. Got a handful of new tracks, that's nice. And that's about it. Tons of new and exciting supercars have come out in the last 10 years, we get none of them. Looking forward to the "at least" one new track each month as DLC, we get nothing. Online is a bunch of mostly empty lobbies and doing practice laps forever because the host is content to just mess around and chat with his buddies. Seasonal events are just time trials seemingly chosen by a random car/track generator, with no replay value whatsoever.

This is a textbook case in stagnation.

 

[Raggadish]

It's been interesting to see the numbers for "Yes" going up after the 1.05 update.

 

[Darren.]

Kaz has made mistakes (1.05 debacle, subsequent release being chief amongst them), let me get that out of the way first. However, to kick him out would be completely inhumane. He was sort of the father of simulation racing, as to my knowledge GT was sort of the first of its kind. And there is no denying this, given the time he can make a cracking game. This shows in every GT every made, the love and craftsmanship has shown and it is clear if Kaz had to go, he would be thrown out kicking and screaming.

But times change, and eventually Kaz will have to go, though this will likely be on his own terms. A successor will need to be found, someone who shares the same vision as him- by that I mean love for racing and making video games on it. But we shouldn't have to worry about that for a long while.

 

[eSZee]

but what I'd think would show a much greater relationship between, say, BMW and PD, would be fleshing out the massive gaps in their existing representation in the game, to give both enthusiasts and casuals a better idea of what BMW is really all about. Not some roundel'd version of the GTbyCitroen that will be forgotten in a year by anybody who doesn't play GT.

I don't think Kaz wants that. Didn't he say in one of the interviews from years and years and years ago that in order for a car to be in GT it has to have some sort of significance to him, mostly, and the car culture?
So while we may get an ordinary car here and there, he probably wants cars that have some sort of impact. Race cars, flagships, spaceships...electrics and hybrids.

 

[mister dog]

but what I'd think would show a much greater relationship between, say, BMW and PD, would be fleshing out the massive gaps in their existing representation in the game, to give both enthusiasts and casuals a better idea of what BMW is really all about. Not some roundel'd version of the GTbyCitroen that will be forgotten in a year by anybody who doesn't play GT.

I don't think Kaz wants that. Didn't he say in one of the interviews from years and years and years ago that in order for a car to be in GT it has to have some sort of significance to him, mostly, and the car culture?
So while we may get an ordinary car here and there, he probably wants cars that have some sort of impact. Race cars, flagships, spaceships...electrics and hybrids.

Like the E30? Did they have those in Japan?

 

[eSZee]

Like the E30? Did they have those in Japan?

Kaz doesn't like fad cars. duh