would you prefer super hard end game races for non-purchaseable prize cars?
- Thread starter Brainhulk
- 108 comments
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- 4,004
- Croatia
This is great concept.
- 2,993
- Brisbane
- jimipitbull
- 23,800
- Philippines
I'm not talking about the difficulty levels anyway I explained what I think they should do in a previous post. Also I never mentioned anything about endurance races.
Never mind the rant about enduros... that was just the blood sugar talking.
Oh, I fully agree. It's just that if you set the bar too high, you may please a small hardcore group of gamers, but you turn off a whole lot of people who can't spend the time or don't have the skill. In the end, sales determine whether you get to keep making more games or not.
- 245
You speak like you have no choise but to do every single race. Is someone forcing you to play and complete the game? If you don't want to do something you don't enjoy doing then why do you do it? I never bothered with the endurance races in gt5 but I'd never come to the forums complaining it took me 3 weeks to complete a race I did not want to do.
I don't understand at all why I should be bothered, annoyed or angry about the game giving something to someone else they want (long endurance races, or hard seasonals or hard missions or something else like braking tests, highspeed runs or drag racing). I don't understand your position at all. Why should I be annoyed when someone else gets a challenge I don't personally want or like? Or don't have time to do. Why do you think your "not wanting" is more important than their "want"?
It is not about making the game to adjust to the lowest number which everyone can do quickly. It is about giving lots of stuff to everybody and this also means giving something to the top guys and to the guys who want different things than you. Not everyone wants simple racer that can be played one hour per day and be completed without effort. There is and never has been any obligation in gt series games to play it. I don't get this idea that every race and race series in gt game has to be winnable for in few hours for those "who have jobs, hobbies and lives".
I just feel ashamed everytime I read someone using that logic of "I can't do this or that because I have job/life" when it comes to videogames. It is always used as an excuse for getting something easier or not having to do or learn something to earn something when someone else has put in the effort and done it. It is either completion focused or just lazyness. But in the end it is just an excuse. If you don't want to do endurance race that takes 3 weeks then why do it?
- 1,537
- GTP_Soundtrack
It is about giving all the stuff to everybody.
In the end restricting access to higher performances cars to the more “blessed” gamers is an antagonism, as it would easier their own progression through the game; something if I understand correctly is the exact opposite off what they are looking for.
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- 23,800
- Philippines
I'm not annoyed. Let me quote my response to glassjaw saying: "at the end of the day it's the creators discretion how they want you to interact with their world."
I did the missions in GT4 because I wanted to. Not because I felt forced to. I didn't complete the challenges in GT5 because I didn't want to.
I'm a player who doesn't really have anything to prove. I completed both GT3 and GT4 to 99.xxx percent and missed out on 100% only due to a stupid programming bug. Before I got bored with GT4, I was working on completing the 200 A-Spec point challenges.
I object to the assertion that saying that I think it's unnecessary to force players to grind or jump through intricate hoops to unlock content means that I'm personally lazy.
I'm just putting forth the observation that if you set a bar too high... Mind you... Felipe Massa is already a high bar, as very few racing drivers can actually wrestle that pig of a Ferrari around a track... then you turn off gamers.
A tiny few will enjoy it. Most will end up frustrated.
If it only affected your acquiring of a game completion trophy, that's a small matter. If you are denied access to content because of it, that simply turns off players even more.
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My vote, mind you... was not "no". I like working for my prizes. I just don't believe the level of proficiency should be set so high. And I believe that a challenge should be its own reward.
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I no longer play GT5. In fact, I hardly play any video games, at all. I work a desk job in the office, do test drives and photoshoots for the magazine during off-hours, and take care of the kids when I get home (however late that is), then the extra hours are spent writing the magazine articles to go with those drives and shoots. And that's when I'm not moderating this site (and others).
Vacation for me is the few days each year I go to the test track for technical testing, after which I smell like burnt rubber, have bruises on whatever ribs I haven't cracked on the seatbelts, and I still have to drive three or four hours to get home.
If GT6 proves to be a bit more friendly to casual gaming, I might buy it. If not, I might not. By casual, I don't mean: "Allow me finish every series in an overpowered car so I can buy everything"... I mean: "Give me challenging races by locking me to a PP limit but don't force me to accumulate a million experience points simply for the opportunity to buy a car I earned enough money to buy a dozen races ago."
GT4 got it right. You could buy any F1 car you wanted, or you could race a tidy, challenging series to save the millions you would have spent otherwise. That's a rewarding game model.
Lazy? I just honestly, and in all seriousness, don't have the time to dedicate to the game, anymore.
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- 245
But Just saying that implies you think these events act as some kind of special divider. You either pass the event and feel happy or don't pass them and feel frustrated. I don't think that is true at all. I think reading this:
http://www.jesperjuul.net/text/fearoffailing/
can point out how differently people react to difficulty in games and how it is not a simple frustration/like relationship.
I also believe that a lot of this idea of frustration/like comes from the fact the game doesn't do the illusion of choise very well. People seem to have problem seeing that not doing something is an option as well. When it comes to gt series games I think there are too many people who take way too much pride to getting that 100% achievement or getting to the level 40 or whatever. Are those people playing for fun or are they playing just for the completion value of the game (goal is not fun but to complete something, which in itself is just different kind of fun).
So in the end it boils down to two groups. Those who want challenge and those who want to achieve 100%. The different things these two groups want clash when the challenge wanting people want stuff in the game that the completion orientated players find very difficult to complete. Simply put having hard events in the game makes it harder to complete the game 100%. The same is also true for endurance events in gt. From this comes the idea that if pd adds difficult events into the game the completion orientated players will see that as something is being taken away from them.
But it is not about making the whole game easy or hard but providing certain amount of those difficult events as well in addition to the rest of the normal game content.
The seasonal events are a good and bad example. The rx7/tsukuba, skyline/ss5 and ford focus/madrid events were awesome because they were difficult. But do I want every seasonal to be that difficult? No. But I don't really agree with the idea that every single seasonal event ahould be super easy.
I also think it is just lazyness again to say "a challenge should be its own reward". It is literally the job of the game to reward the player with sense of having fun. Everything can not be fun for everybody. But one still wants to reward those different kind of things. Why should just skillful play be left without rewards? Just because? I can not think any good reason why more difficult event should have no rewards but super easy events should have...
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- 1,750
- Sakery
F. Massa A.I. ??
Really ??
Alonso struggled the last races to beat him and you put him into a poll as a "low-skilled" driver ??
Massa still better than Button and other overrated drivers (despite Button winning WC but it was a sly title and even Barrichello could have won it but Button was a tad better that season).
B2T:
GT4 was perfect. License test where hard to gold but not impossible.
The "Events" where super challenging but not impossible either (Skyline drafting challenge and the SLR Nordschleife challenge).
GT5 was different for me. License test I couldn´t gold a few and the Vettel challenges where way too tough, because the X2010 was to ridiculous and the setup couldn´t be changed (for me this was impossible).
In addition I tried the NASCAR-Challenge again after the update it got and again it´s now impossible to get near gold there too (ABS can´t be set to 0 and ABS is permanent on)
I didn´t vote because the options are only black and white.
Really ??
Alonso struggled the last races to beat him and you put him into a poll as a "low-skilled" driver ??
Massa still better than Button and other overrated drivers (despite Button winning WC but it was a sly title and even Barrichello could have won it but Button was a tad better that season).
B2T:
GT4 was perfect. License test where hard to gold but not impossible.
The "Events" where super challenging but not impossible either (Skyline drafting challenge and the SLR Nordschleife challenge).
GT5 was different for me. License test I couldn´t gold a few and the Vettel challenges where way too tough, because the X2010 was to ridiculous and the setup couldn´t be changed (for me this was impossible).
In addition I tried the NASCAR-Challenge again after the update it got and again it´s now impossible to get near gold there too (ABS can´t be set to 0 and ABS is permanent on)
I didn´t vote because the options are only black and white.
- 23,800
- Philippines
That piece merely illustrates some of the pitfalls of GT5 that I've outlined:
As that article plainly points out, there is an optimum flow.
What I've been saying is that it's not a rewarding experience. Partially because the frustration comes not from the difficulty but from arbitrary game design... and partially because of poor game design, in which challenges become near-impossible... as so:
For us pad players, the Vettel challenge is near-impossible. There are maybe a dozen aliens on the planet who can finish it on the pad. And many of the challenges have gold times that were obviously achieved by a playtester without ABS or aids. Aids which were set permanently on for those challenges. (this was then later corrected... and then uncorrected... and then I lost track...) This made some easier than intended, and some much, much harder. It disrupted the game flow.
In the end, as the piece points out... if you bother to read through to the end... a game requires both proper flow and balance between ease and difficulty.
I think you're making an artificial distinction. The two groups can, and most certainly do, overlap. There are those who relish a challenge and want the 100% badge. And those people do not mind the extra difficulty. Of course, us old-schoolers relish the challenge more... but the kids who like cookies?
A lot of money is being made off of people who simply want the badges and completions... pay-to-play... buying extra lives/coins/items/whatever online...
Me, I'm old-school. I play a game to enjoy it. I race endless hours offline simply to perfect laps or beat my own ghost in free-lapping. I race online to have fun. If I come in first, I'm happy. If I come in second by a few hundredths, I'll shoot off a congratulatory PM to the guy who won.
Hmmm... maybe that's why I'm not popular in CounterStrike. I'm a very, very gracious loser. (as well as a backstabbing SOB)
I have never said any different.
Who said difficult events should not have rewards? Unique skins and colors are good rewards. Stealth and Chromeline cars are good rewards. But why lock a car the team spent six months modelling away from 99.9% of the people who purchase the game?
And laziness on whose part? The game designers, maybe. There are some games which dangle carrots to entice players. But there are others that either don't or simply make a token gesture.
Again, though... what's so lazy about relishing a good challenge without the bragging rights? This is what Flight Sim players get. This is what hundreds of thousands of players get every day when playing online shooters and racers in non-league games and random play rooms. This is what PC Sim-racers get. All cars up front and hours of simply hooking up and racing.
Like I've said, however, it's the game designers who eventually decide what the game will be like. I just hope they get it right.
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- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
It's not hard to resolve this problem, quite simple really.
1. Difficulty slider in ASpec.
2. Different awards/prizes/prize cars for different difficulty levels.
As you complete any given series or big race or whatever prizes are handed out for, you get the same car as everyone else. Compete at higher difficulty and maybe you get the GT livery on the car. Complete at the highest difficulty and you get a special stealth/chromeline/whizzbag livery.
We all get access to the cars no matter if we're Granny or Gilles Villeneuve on a G27, the different liveries denote what level of difficulty we chose and everyone will know what you did because of that.
Throw in a sandbox mode where you get all the cars and no special liveries and you've got all the bases covered. Call me Kaz, I can be persuaded to move to Japan
1. Difficulty slider in ASpec.
2. Different awards/prizes/prize cars for different difficulty levels.
As you complete any given series or big race or whatever prizes are handed out for, you get the same car as everyone else. Compete at higher difficulty and maybe you get the GT livery on the car. Complete at the highest difficulty and you get a special stealth/chromeline/whizzbag livery.
We all get access to the cars no matter if we're Granny or Gilles Villeneuve on a G27, the different liveries denote what level of difficulty we chose and everyone will know what you did because of that.
Throw in a sandbox mode where you get all the cars and no special liveries and you've got all the bases covered. Call me Kaz, I can be persuaded to move to Japan
dylansan
Premium
- 5,012
- Massachusetts
- GTP_dylansan
- MINICOOPER120
I will just say that if they do make cars that are only winnable through certain races, they really ought to be available to purchase once you've gotten one.
I often like to have multiples of a car, and having to do the challenge more than once would be ridiculous.
I often like to have multiples of a car, and having to do the challenge more than once would be ridiculous.
- 245
And why is that a bad thing? I thought that's why difficulty is difficulty. It is hard, average or easy. But if it is easy it is not hard. And the vettel challenge is supposed to be hard. Why can't a game have hard challenges. The vettel challenge in gt5 is not in any way central part of the game that blocks serious amounts of game content. The only problem it represents is that it makes people envious and angry when they can not easily complete it the same way everything else in the game is made super easy.
In principle yes. In that very picture you quoted the difficulty goes from very low to very high. For some reason you seem to be fine with really easy content and with averagely easy content but when it comes to difficult content it is suddenly a big no- Why?
Guess what you find on the upper right corner of this image:
http://www.jesperjuul.net/text/fearoffailing/figure9.gif
Difficult content.
Not everyone gets to the top right corner. And I see no reason why everything in the game should be made easy enough so everybody can get there...
I agree. But at the same time I don't see it as a problem if there are couple of cars that are hard to get. I don't see the huge tragedy if some cars were only available from doing a difficult competition. Just make sure those are not the important cars. The special concept model modern skyline would be great competition reward in gt5. Same with the art morrison corvette, cadillac cien, c7 prototype corvette or the Silverado SST Concept.
Obviously pure online games that focus on multiplayer aspect have totally different gameplay than a game like gt which has very central career mode in it. But it is not totally true that all sim racers get all their cars up front. In iracing you need to earn your licenses to be able to race the higher rated cars. I'm still very hesitant when you compare online racing sims to games like gt and forza which have a kind of a role playing aspect that is very central part of their gameplay.
If gt was made like a pc racing sim with all cars available up front would it make the game better? No, I don't think so. The career mode in gt is what makes it a gt just like the online aspect in pc racing sim is what makes it online racing sim. And as part of career mode there is the increasing difficulty levels. Or should be. In gt5 it was all over the place. Most of the stuff is super duper easy. Just no challenge at all. Some were mildly challenging and tiny parts were really difficult. That is bad game design because it is inconsistent, boring and frustrating.
In online games without skill matchmaker you often get huge variance in difficulty levels. Some matches are completely impossible while others are easier than gt5. But with matchmaker you get matched against people with similar level of skill. Most of the matches are challenging to a player of your skill level. And most of the popular games do have a skill matchmaker for that reason. People don't want random difficulty. People want challenge but not too much. And the game does its best to provide just that. There is content for those who want to just smash the pad with baseball bat and occasionally win a match and there is content for those who are really really good and want challenge.
- 23,800
- Philippines
Here, you're making suppositions about people, again... based on your own prejudices. You have valid points, but your arguments would be much stronger if you didn't resort to calling people who criticize GT5 for certain things lazy.
Re-read what I wrote. The progression in GT5 was not correct. You have to have a proper ramping up of challenges. Having near-impossible ones mixed in with too easy ones ruins the progression of both game and player.
Did I ever say it should be? Remember, I said I like challenges.[/B]
Remember, I did not answer "no", but it all depends on how well you design the challenges. GT3 and GT4 were about right in terms of difficulty. Players who were not professional racing drivers or "aliens" could complete all the challenges given enough time, practice and discipline. GT5 went off the rails a bit, but again, it seems like it was a problem with play-testing rather than by design... remember, they did have to change things during the updates to fix some of the events and gold times.
GT could be much, much more challenging. They could have the AI drive perfect laps, lap after lap, without artificially slowing their top speed, and no human driver would ever be able to beat them at all. Except if they're front wheel drive, of course, because Polyphony Digital never gets the waypoint files right for FWD racers.
But nobody would like that game.
It's not about making the game easy. It's about making sure it's possible for people to play it.
Which is exactly what I've been saying.
- 245
I think I was making assumptions and opinions based on this thread. There seem to be many people posting in this thread who do not want hard events in gt6 because:
a) it makes it too hard to complete them ("people who want it easy")
b) it makes it too hard to complete the game easily ("people who just want to complete the game")
I don't want to go around labeling people based on my own opinions but here are some quotes:
"I want every car to be available to every player"
= game must be easy enough so everybody can complete everything
"so long as it doesn't count for 100%"
and
"I would still like to be able to beat the game and collect all the cars"
= completion focused
Why does everyone have this "right" to complete the game? Why why why is it important that everybody must be able to complete everything in the game? Why can't there be some content which has very high skill level. Where does this idea come from where everyone is automatically entitled to get gold medals in every race and event in gt?
I think we both agree that gt games need better a-spec. It needs difficulty structure that increases predictably and smoothly. But where the differences between you and me are is that you just want the difficulty to go from super-easy to moderately easy where I am willing to go from super easy to moderately challenging with some content that is super hard. You seem to care more about that everyone can 100% complete the game where I'm more concerned about providing a game where everyone can feel challenged towards the end.
The contradiction or clash between those ideas is that with my way the game does not fully work for those completion focused gamers anymore because only a minority can complete the hardest content. I'm fine with that and don't see ANY problems with that.
But I don't have any idea why you seem to be so much against that? Why should everyone be able to 100% the game - why is that so important that it overrides the ability of the game to provide something challenging for everybody?
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
The ability of the game to challenge everyone is a function of difficulty. ASpec has one difficulty level and you can't have a game this vast, with this big of a fanbase, and expect one difficulty level to fit everyone. Yes, you can vary your car/tire/PP combinations to make it challenge but I think it's the game designer's job to at least provide various levels of difficulty as a starting point so you can get close to the right combination without a ton of trial and error. You shouldn't have to start/stop/start/stop races so often to find a car that works to make it challenging, it's just poor game design IMO. Even the addition of qualifying and knowing what lap times the AI is running would be a dramatic improvement.
On the opposite end of the scale, if you get to choose your difficulty, the level that provides you with satisfaction and challenge, why can't I choose mine, including sandbox mode where I sign in and have a garage with 1200 cars in it? I don't see that affecting me in any way if someone else chooses that option and I don't.
- 245
I think it is bad that a-spec is just one difficulty level. I think it would be much better if there were like 10 difficulty levels for a-spec where 10 would be insanely difficult and 1 should be super easy.
What you are saying though is a different thing. Now having to play the game to get all content is not about difficulty anymore. Because to finish a game you need to invest time AND effort. Even at super easy mode you still need to invest time to go through the career. So from that point of view not having to play the game at all and still get all content from the beginning is not about difficulty.
While I'm sure there are people who would happily buy a version of gt6 with all the cars, events and content unlocked with infinite moneys I'd like to think that for the majority the enjoyment of the game is about progressing in the game. In the end it is just an ideological opinion about the game. Is the sandbox mode the end game in gt game which you reach. No matter if one playes just to complete the game, or just to occasionally play it or to play it online or whatever. I think the career mode in gt games is the central part of the gameplay and as such it seems just strange that if you could just skip it.
Of course I don't see a problem if someone wants to and can totally skip the career mode in gt and get all content instantly. But is it really much of a game anymore?
- 1,413
- Netherlands
I think good players deserve the good cars, whereas bad players, don't deserve them at all. I have seen way too many morons online racing in Veyrons, X2010 etc etc, which I think they haven't earned themselves.
There has to be at least one (or preferably more) goal(s) in a racegame, this is one of them. Be a good driver and you earn good cars. You don't have to be the best driver, but at least you have to 'work' for them good cars!!
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- N/A
- xbox lol haha
"Epic poll question number 3!!! My answer would be no because only the fastest drivers would have access to the rarest cars which shortchanges everyone else."
Yes and this is exactly what i want. This is not NFS. I hate if the 10 year old KIDS are driving around with X1 and crashing into EVERY existend corner in GT 5.Because of those KIDS i could NEVER EVER drive with a X1 in a online lobby. Because they think that iam going to crash and because of that they kick me.
KAZ : PLS put the Bugatti in a race like this so that we finally get lost of these kids.
Yes and this is exactly what i want. This is not NFS. I hate if the 10 year old KIDS are driving around with X1 and crashing into EVERY existend corner in GT 5.Because of those KIDS i could NEVER EVER drive with a X1 in a online lobby. Because they think that iam going to crash and because of that they kick me.
KAZ : PLS put the Bugatti in a race like this so that we finally get lost of these kids.
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Driving a car with almost 2 HP per kilogram is pretty rewarding if you ask me.
- 671
- Eskimo Land
- NOS_Waster
- NOS Waster
My answer is no. The completion of a hard challenge should be a reward enough. I don't know why some people need to be validated with prizes that nobody else can get without completing the challenge. This isn't about making the challenges easy or hard. Make them hard, but let people purchase the car anyway.
If you really need that reward, a special cosmetic item could be in order. Locking content away from people just because they don't possess the necessary "skill" (read: ability to waste very much time in the game) to complete the challenge is not cool in the slightest.
If you really need that reward, a special cosmetic item could be in order. Locking content away from people just because they don't possess the necessary "skill" (read: ability to waste very much time in the game) to complete the challenge is not cool in the slightest.
- 1,537
- GTP_Soundtrack
I will not deny online activities are plagued by party poopers. However, this isn’t the point of this thread. The proposition of the OP is quite clear and restricts game content to a very happy few number of so called “Elite drivers”. On a given track where the likes of Lucas Ordonez posts a 1:40, you would need to drive under a 1:42. Go check a leader-board to see how many “good drivers” will be unable to access the said content.
As for stupid kids who ram you out, maybe this could be addressed by a deeper/better configurability of lobbies. I could imagine things like qualifications with targeted lap time for example. Not sure however it would solve all the problems, ironically:
- 23,800
- Philippines
Not equivalent. Letting players have access to all content does not mean a person wants to game to be easy. I have shared game saves with casual players while still working to finish the game myself. Does that mean I want no challenge?
The first, maybe. The second means the poster wants the challenge to be achievable.
The last might suggest what you imply: "laziness", but it is not proof, and nothing else is.
Again, and how many times have I said it: Did I ever say I didn't want the game to be challenging?
I appreciate that will be challenges that only 10% of players will be able to pass. I have already explained the problems with the other challenges. It is not necessarily the difficulty itself, but that the difficulty arises from poor game design rather than by choice.
I have never said that the entire game should be easy. I have only stated that I don't think core content should be locked away. (again, it's the game creators' choice whether or not to allow that, so that's just personal opinion, man) I have already explained this position several times, and you still seem to think I want GT6 to be bumper cars for everyone.
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A sandbox mode would be fantastic. But: that would make the experience very short. Obviously, a balance must be achieved that will engage as many players as possible for as long as possible.
This means a properly structured A-Spec challenge. Not the mess we have right now.
- 1,537
- GTP_Soundtrack
Very partial and biased (ab)use of “quote” IMO.
Not a single meaningful game content should have its access restricted by skills. Nothing to do with the game being easy, nothing to do with 100% completion.
My favorite offline racing involved one make arcade events, the AI slider, detuning the engine and adjusting ballast. No rewards, no XP’s, no credits, just my personal research of enjoyment trow the game. To each is own.
- 245
Actually it does because the base assumption is that having some difficul content automatically excludes some content from some players.
Why?
I've asked niky at least 3 times already why few exclusive reward cars for example is just a big no no but only answers I'm getting is just that "it should not be done". Maybe you can give me a good reason.
And having maybe 3-5 cars that are not essential for any league racing or other competitions that are exclusive prizes would kill your fun?
I'll give you an example. Let's imagine the game has 4 really difficulty special events. One for nissan, one for cadillac, two for chevrolet and one art morrison one. For winning the nissan compeititon the prize would be the modern skyline concept car which is basically identical with the normal skyline. Caddy prize would be the cien concept. For the two chevy comps you get c7 prototype corvette and the Silverado SST Concept. Normal c7 would still be available but the concept model would be a special prize. For finishing the art morrison comp you would get the art morrison corvette.
Would this really break the game for you? 5 cars out of which only one is otherwise unavailable otherwise (cien)?
- 1,537
- GTP_Soundtrack
Maybe someone cares about that car more than I do?
