Wouldn't you rather it be the 'Real Racing Simulator'?

[Hyst]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not one of those douche bags that only raced Audi R8s in GT4 and everything had to have a stage 4 turbo kit. However, it remains a mystery to me why PD continue to waste space with 90HP boxes. A race full of Toyota Vitzes could conceivably be fun in real life, but in a game it's just going to be a boring, slow waste of time and (more importantly) disc space. I'm not saying get rid of cars like the Honda S500, and I know that slow doesn't always mean boring to drive, but I've never driven a Toyota Vitz/Mazda Demio etc. more than once or twice (excluding licenses/model specific races).

Just to clarify - I don't mean take out production cars, that's ludicrous. I mean take out cars such as the Vitz and Demio, and replace them with cars that (I think) are far more deserving.

I know everyone argues about what cars should be in, everyone has their favorite cars and all the rest of it, but all you need is to spend 5 minutes on racingsportscars.com to find 10 cars I'd bet good money you would rather have in GT5 than boring, uninspiring cars that were intended to get people that don't make a lot of money down the street to work.

Thoughts?

 

[McLaren]

Except that's the great thing about GT. Incorporating those cars allows PD to connect to owners of said cars. They know not everyone owns a Ferrari, but if they include someone's personal 120Hp car, the consumer might just buy it for that fact alone.

However, the Real Racing Simulator would be a poor nickname. It simulates driving very well. Racing, not so much.

 

[Hyst]

I didn't mean for that to be the actual title. Decent point, I guess. For me, Gran Turismo (and all racing games) would be my chance to get as close to racing the cars of the past and present as I can. If I owned an 84 Accord, the last thing I'd want to do is by a game to race it in.

 

[Blackbird.]

Also I swear I remember KY wanted his game to be a car encyclopedia?

 

[Hyst]

I can appreciate the history KY would want, I'm not knocking that, but I just thing there are countless of important/obscure cars (whether they be race cars, concepts, or production cars) that are more deserving of a spot in GT5 than your average Suzuki Cappucino.

 

[Jay]

No way, I play GT mostly for the road cars obscure and all, I enjoy the racing cars too but not as much as the road cars. There is lots of racing games (good sims at that) but production road car games especially to GT's magniture is a rare breed.

only about 10% of my GT4 gaming was actually racing.

 

[buickgnx88]

I mean why have the same exact cars that every other game already has?

 

[RedSuinit]

I love the fact that they include production cars (even some of the slow ones). Why? because a race between friends using slow cars can be fun, you can ram the crap out of each other being aggressively competitive (note: this is between friends) and it is a crap load of fun, because one won't fall too far behind the other, and you never hit really high speeds so when you ram each other it doesn't mess each other up too much.

Luke

 

[Wolfe]

A race full of Toyota Vitzes could conceivably be fun in real life, but in a game it's just going to be a boring, slow waste of time and (more importantly) disc space.

You're right, a Vitz race (or something of that nature) would be fun in real life, and it should be in a driving simulator as well. If it isn't, then the game you're playing just isn't up to par. I didn't try any economy cars in my brief time with GT5, so whether that means GT5 isn't good enough is your conclusion to make.

At any rate, to answer your question, I love how Gran Turismo and the clones it has spawned include all sorts of cars. You don't have to drive a thoroughbred sportscar to have a good time. At the same time, though, I think a mix biased a bit more towards performance -- a la Forza 2 -- works out best, because GT4 and Enthusia missed out on a lot of obvious nominees, not to mention direct competitors to cars that made it in. There are very few entries in Forza 2's roster that I would call a waste.

 

[daan]

We'll supply the racing. PD needs to supply us with as many different cars as they can.

 

[Famine]

A race full of Toyota Vitzes could conceivably be fun in real life, but in a game it's just going to be a boring, slow waste of time

I've never driven a Toyota Vitz/Mazda Demio etc. more than once or twice (excluding licenses/model specific races).

These two seem to be at odds with each other. You say you rarely drive the Vitz, yet you know that a race full of them is boring.

Quick reference, at the recent UKGTP9 LAN event, one of the most fun series we had was Economy cars (Nissan Micra 12c, Mitsubishi i, Toyota Prius, Honda Insight, Mazda Demio, Citroen C3) on Economy tyres. It was an exercise in preservation of momentum and the racers were very rarely split by more than a couple of seconds after 5 laps. If we didn't have those cars, we wouldn't have had that fun.

and (more importantly) disc space.

I mean take out cars such as the Vitz and Demio, and replace them with cars that (I think) are far more deserving.

I just thing there are countless of important/obscure cars (whether they be race cars, concepts, or production cars) that are more deserving of a spot in GT5 than your average Suzuki Cappucino.

You're assuming here that for every car that's in the game there's one that isn't because of disc space.

PD can only put in cars they can model. No model = no car. And a standard, single-layer BluRay is 25Gb. Disc space isn't an issue. It really, really isn't.

GT5P is about 6Gb in total. If you want to be less than generous and assume only 1Gb of that is the game (1kb for the AI), that's 5Gb of tracks (6) and cars (78?) with 19Gb yet to be used in GT5 - sufficient for 23 more tracks (29) and 300 more cars. Make it a dual-layer BD and that's 60 tracks and 765 cars - already GT4 numbers but with much, much higher resolution models.

Of course if the game itself is just 1Gb, I'll eat my own eyes. If it's a 3Gb game engine you're looking at 44/94 tracks and 572/1222 cars possible on single/dual layer BD.

For me, Gran Turismo (and all racing games) would be my chance to get as close to racing the cars of the past and present as I can. If I owned an 84 Accord, the last thing I'd want to do is by a game to race it in.

You'd be surprised by the number of people who own mundane cars and are uninterested in gaming who, when seeing their car in GT4 on my PS2 just have to sit down at the wheel to have a go.


I want just as many cars as PD can give us. Old, new, crap, brilliant, attractive, hideous, it doesn't matter to me. And I know I'd rather do 5 laps in a Mitsubishi i (which is absolutely piggin' hilarious) than one lap in a 0 TCS Spyker C8 (which is utterly awful).

 

[Sniffs]

in a nutshell...no!

people are too busy enjoying the little stuff included as well as the deliberate performance. however, they seem to be focused on keeping things bone stock for the most realistic feel (I'll, personally, even hot-rod up 2 potters).

remember, some of the vehicles included in 4 are there because of their historical significance more than anything, but can be fun on a micro-track because of their sheer tininess and featherweights (whith, unfortunately, the mothers of all automobiles a major exception).

also, if PD simply focused on the performance models exclusively, it would just be a low or medium volume selling member of the "boring racing game" genre, and not be the worldwide megafan manufacturer saving and intrest returning game that it is now.

 

[unv412]

It was an exercise in preservation of momentum and the racers were very rarely split by more than a couple of seconds after 5 laps. If we didn't have those cars, we wouldn't have had that fun.

too true, some of the best (naughty) street racing ever (when I was younger) happened drag racing ****boxes.Because the drag racing happened at a lower speeds the fun would last longer eg 79 mazda 626 versus 81 toyota corona race the fun lasts up to 20 seconds Also some of the most imersive Ps2 2 player battles have been with underpowered cars because if you do outbrake yourself or stuff up, it happens at a slower speed and you still stay on the road with a chance at catching up.....stuff up in a Zo6 and kiss your race goodbye as you exit the corner backwards at 250kph:tup:

 

[saint_dracula]

There is a reason I can understand - yesterday I had the honour of driving the Daihatsu Midget. And then, I thought, I could really appreciate it despite the slowness. It was actually alright. Is there a thread here suggesting which cars to keep and which to bin?

P.S. Cat and mouse with the midget would be awesome

 

[benzoboy]

To the OP.

You look me in the avatar and tell me you didn't smile when you got the pink 2CV as a prize in GT4, or the pink Yaris (Vitz) in GT3.

If you didn't smile at these points and you didn't either:

A) Throw some gold rims on them.
B) Give 'em a good thrashing.

Including kei cars and other stuff is one of the only things that gave GT it's replay value. You tell me that you won't ever get bored of driving Ferraris round and round the same tracks. It gets boring, unless your name is Takumi Fujiwara, in which case, You shouldn't be moaning about underpowered cars. Because remember that time you beat a Skyline GT-R in a 150bhp Trueno?

On topic, GT is known as 'The Real Racing Simulator'. There's plenty of racing leagues for unlikely racing cars. They have a Mini Cooper racing league for instance.

Also, if you don't like these kinda cars in GT, don't use them, simple as.

 

[homeforsummer]

Quick reference, at the recent UKGTP9 LAN event, one of the most fun series we had was Economy cars (Nissan Micra 12c, Mitsubishi i, Toyota Prius, Honda Insight, Mazda Demio, Citroen C3) on Economy tyres. It was an exercise in preservation of momentum and the racers were very rarely split by more than a couple of seconds after 5 laps. If we didn't have those cars, we wouldn't have had that fun.

Ah I would have loved that! Hopefully those same sorts of cars will be in GT5, I used the Insight a lot in GT4. In fact, I used slow cars more than fast ones.

On that note, I'd prefer GT was still the real "driving" simulator. I like being given weird and wonderful Kei cars and the like to drive.

The racing is now what we make of it ourselves with the online mode - we don't need Codemasters-style over-the-top racing because get a group of GTP members together on track (and preferably in a private room at some point) the racing will be fast, clean, tight and brilliant fun, whether it's in Le Mans cars or a grid of 16 Daihatsu Midgets

And anyone who says that the slower cars aren't fun to race in obviously never raced in the Suzuki Swift Cup that (I think it was) Ardius organised 👍

 

[Ardius]

And anyone who says that the slower cars aren't fun to race in obviously never raced in the Suzuki Swift Cup that (I think it was) Ardius organised 👍

To this day, I keep saying that is the most fun I ever had playing Gran Turismo or any racing game. If we ever get back PP500 Suzuka, we will most certainly do it again!

 

[Hyst]

I see my views are not widely supported .

 

[RedSuinit]

These two seem to be at odds with each other. You say you rarely drive the Vitz, yet you know that a race full of them is boring.

Quick reference, at the recent UKGTP9 LAN event, one of the most fun series we had was Economy cars (Nissan Micra 12c, Mitsubishi i, Toyota Prius, Honda Insight, Mazda Demio, Citroen C3) on Economy tyres. It was an exercise in preservation of momentum and the racers were very rarely split by more than a couple of seconds after 5 laps. If we didn't have those cars, we wouldn't have had that fun.



You're assuming here that for every car that's in the game there's one that isn't because of disc space.

PD can only put in cars they can model. No model = no car. And a standard, single-layer BluRay is 25Gb. Disc space isn't an issue. It really, really isn't.

GT5P is about 6Gb in total. If you want to be less than generous and assume only 1Gb of that is the game (1kb for the AI), that's 5Gb of tracks (6) and cars (78?) with 19Gb yet to be used in GT5 - sufficient for 23 more tracks (29) and 300 more cars. Make it a dual-layer BD and that's 60 tracks and 765 cars - already GT4 numbers but with much, much higher resolution models.

Of course if the game itself is just 1Gb, I'll eat my own eyes. If it's a 3Gb game engine you're looking at 44/94 tracks and 572/1222 cars possible on single/dual layer BD.



You'd be surprised by the number of people who own mundane cars and are uninterested in gaming who, when seeing their car in GT4 on my PS2 just have to sit down at the wheel to have a go.


I want just as many cars as PD can give us. Old, new, crap, brilliant, attractive, hideous, it doesn't matter to me. And I know I'd rather do 5 laps in a Mitsubishi i (which is absolutely piggin' hilarious) than one lap in a 0 TCS Spyker C8 (which is utterly awful).

+1 👍 I loved seeing my car in GT4, and everyone who has ever played have talked about how they had to drive their car in the game, "just" because they had owned the car.

 

[Hyst]

Maybe I've just been playing Enthusia too much, and the BMW M1 has got me lustin' after some more race cars in the GT series.

 

[homeforsummer]

To this day, I keep saying that is the most fun I ever had playing Gran Turismo or any racing game. If we ever get back PP500 Suzuka, we will most certainly do it again!

Definitely 👍 When private rooms arrive then a series wouldn't be out of the question either!

We'll supply the racing. PD needs to supply us with as many different cars as they can.

Didn't see this comment before but that's basically exactly what I was getting at. Close racing isn't an outcome of the sort of game you're playing, it's who you're playing the game against. I remember playing GT2, 3 and 4 against my brother split screen, clean racing, and I lost count of the number of finishes split by less than a tenth of a second.

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

I see my views are not widely supported .

I think what you're getting at is for PD to prioritize performance cars over the oddball/buck-a-pop cars, correct?

I agree...in a way I can appreciate how Yamauchi wants to include unsusual, unknown cars in GT, but I think supercars and sport cars should be the first order to start with. That's what most people want to look for in a racing game anyways.

Now, I wouldn't say it's a waste of time to feature an old or slow car (God knows how much fun I had drifting the Ford Model T! ), but those cars feel more like they should be extras, and should take second place to real high performance cars. Basically, this is what I feel should be: Start with the biggest names in the supercar category, next come the most important in the sport car class, and work the way down to all those funky weird cars of old. And if a time constraint comes up, cut from the bottom of the list.

 

[Patrik]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not one of those douche bags that only raced Audi R8s in GT4 and everything had to have a stage 4 turbo kit. However, it remains a mystery to me why PD continue to waste space with 90HP boxes. A race full of Toyota Vitzes could conceivably be fun in real life, but in a game it's just going to be a boring, slow waste of time and (more importantly) disc space. I'm not saying get rid of cars like the Honda S500, and I know that slow doesn't always mean boring to drive, but I've never driven a Toyota Vitz/Mazda Demio etc. more than once or twice (excluding licenses/model specific races).

Just to clarify - I don't mean take out production cars, that's ludicrous. I mean take out cars such as the Vitz and Demio, and replace them with cars that (I think) are far more deserving.

I know everyone argues about what cars should be in, everyone has their favorite cars and all the rest of it, but all you need is to spend 5 minutes on racingsportscars.com to find 10 cars I'd bet good money you would rather have in GT5 than boring, uninspiring cars that were intended to get people that don't make a lot of money down the street to work.

Thoughts?

I pretty much agree. Don't get rid of cars like Honda Civics, Toyota AE86, Volkswagen Golf GTI and so on, remove cars like Daihatsu Midget, Ford Model T, Fiat 500, Subaru 360 and include more classics like BMW E30 M3, Ford Sierra Cosworth, Volvo 240 Turbo and such..

 

[unv412]

I include more classics like BMW E30 M3, Ford Sierra Cosworth, Volvo 240 Turbo and such..

sounds like someone is missing the old World Touring Car Championship days! I recon if PD can give us an equal serving of each class of car/racecar to begin with, everyone should be happy and then they just have to keep adding to the classes with each download until everycar know to man is catered for!!!!! I for one hope to live to see it (I'm 35 years old now)

 

[Hyst]

I pretty much agree. Don't get rid of cars like Honda Civics, Toyota AE86, Volkswagen Golf GTI and so on, remove cars like Daihatsu Midget, Ford Model T, Fiat 500, Subaru 360 and include more classics like BMW E30 M3, Ford Sierra Cosworth, Volvo 240 Turbo and such..

That is exactly what I'm saying.

I'm not saying 'get rid of anything under 200HP', or even get rid of anything completely, but there are a hell of a lot of cars far more deserving, in my eyes, to be in the original release than the Model T, 360, Fiat 500, Toyota Vitz etc.

Take these out, and there's more space for Group B, Group C, ALMS, etc. cars that, again in my eyes, are far more important than some little ****box that tops out at 40 km/h.

 

[Wolfe]

I think supercars and sport cars should be the first order to start with. That's what most people want to look for in a racing game anyways...

...Start with the biggest names in the supercar category, next come the most important in the sport car class, and work the way down to all those funky weird cars of old. And if a time constraint comes up, cut from the bottom of the list.

No offense, but that sounds awful. The three posts below yours are a better idea, IMO.

Racing nothing but supercars and cars that barely qualify as "production cars" is boring, and probably not at all what many GTP members are looking for in a GT game. Pushing a lightweight 200hp 4-cylinder to its limit can provide many more hours of entertainment.

Anyway, now that Hyst's point has been reinterpreted through PuTTe_TuTTe, I agree completely. If you look at the similar point I made in my first post in this thread, I referenced Forza 2 as a game to look to for inspiration -- would you agree that a car list kinda like FM2's is what we need, Hyst?

 

[Famine]

Don't get rid of cars like Honda Civics, Toyota AE86, Volkswagen Golf GTI and so on, remove cars like Daihatsu Midget, Ford Model T, Fiat 500, Subaru 360 and include more classics like BMW E30 M3, Ford Sierra Cosworth, Volvo 240 Turbo and such..

This position requires two assumptions:

1. They've modelled the M3, Cossie and suchlike, and have licences for them.
2. They've not included them due to space constraints.

Now, given that they aren't in the games thus far and there was clearly space in GT1 and GT3 for them (what with 400 more cars turning up on the same size disc in GT2 and GT4), those are not sound assumptions to make.


I'd like for them to include the cars you mention, but not for them to remove the others you mention - especially as there's absolutely no good reason to do so.

 

[Hyst]

No offense, but that sounds awful. The three posts below yours are a better idea, IMO.

Racing nothing but supercars and cars that barely qualify as "production cars" is boring, and probably not at all what many GTP members are looking for in a GT game. Pushing a lightweight 200hp 4-cylinder to its limit can provide many more hours of entertainment.

Anyway, now that Hyst's point has been reinterpreted through PuTTe_TuTTe, I agree completely. If you look at the similar point I made in my first post in this thread, I referenced Forza 2 as a game to look to for inspiration -- would you agree that a car list kinda like FM2's is what we need, Hyst?

More or less. I like FM2's car list a lot, and it's essentially what I'm getting at.

I guess it's just my frustration in that series I love (DTM, ALMS, etc.) have only a few cars in each series, and the cars that are included are often from different years (94' Calibra racing against an 04 Audi, etc.).

And then there's cars like the Midget, 360, Vitz etc. taking up data that could be used to go towards a few extra DTM, ALMS, LMP etc. cars.

 

[homeforsummer]

I'd like for them to include the cars you mention, but not for them to remove the others you mention - especially as there's absolutely no good reason to do so.

+1. Much as I'd like some more varied cars, such as the old touring cars mentioned, and maybe more popular modern touring cars, I wouldn't like it to be at the expense of even the least powerful cars in the game. I think a great many players, especially dyed-in-the-wool GT fans as opposed to casual gamers, actually enjoy pedalling the slower or more unusual cars.

The term "car encyclopedia" gets banded about a lot at the moment but that's what GT is about. I want to drive unusual cars, especially now that we have a great cockpit view that makes you feel more like you're actually driving it. I'd love to see the world through the windscreen of a Daihatsu Midget because I can't do it in real life! Hell, in the pictorial wishlist thread I've put up vans and lorries, and I honestly wouldn't consider that "a step too far". I want to drive all the things that I wouldn't get a chance to otherwise.

 

[Famine]

And then there's cars like the Midget, 360, Vitz etc. taking up data that could be used to go towards a few extra DTM, ALMS, LMP etc. cars.

You're assuming here that for every car that's in the game there's one that isn't because of disc space.

Where is this idea coming from? Don't you think that every DTM/LMP car PD had modelled for GT4 got into GT4? Why?