Wouldn't you rather it be the 'Real Racing Simulator'?

[Hyst]

Because I find it a little bit disheartening that time, space, and money was spent getting a car like the Daihatsu Midget into GT4 when the only 'fun' you could really have in it is mutiplayer races around a go-kart track, whereas cars far more important to racing history and ultimately far more fun to drive aren't included.

I just don't think that 20-80HP boxes, the kind of vehicle used to transport barrels of wine up and down the Italian countryside should be given priority over far more deserving race cars and production cars.

 

[Famine]

You miss the question.

I'm asking why you seem to think that every car in GT is there at the expense of another. You've said it a couple of times now:

taking up data that could be used to go towards a few extra DTM, ALMS, LMP etc. cars.

Where do you get this idea?

We know the discs aren't filled. Would it not be better to keep cars that other people enjoy driving (such as, say, me) and add high-powered race cars that you enjoy driving, rather than put in your choices and remove mine?

 

[Dave A]

Famine is right, basically if PD had the resources to include more DTM, JGCT/ Super GT and historic racing car etc then they would have included them but it wouldn't have been at the expense of anything else it would have been in addition to. PD has to get a legal license for each car they use, they have to get permission and in 99% of cases pay a fee to use that car. Certain cars, model ranges or even whole brands can be unobtainable for a variety of reasons.

 

[greenlightning]

I agree with those that want as many cars as possible regardless of the type. GT4 offered the best selection out of all the versions to date. However I do not think the races was set up anywhere close to capture the incredible car selection that they had. The primary restriction was country orgin which severely limited what races cars could enter. Take the same car selection as GT4, then add online, 16 car fields, private lobbies etc. and it would make for some of the best races ever. Especially if you could establish private racing leagues etc. where you could hook up with the same drivers every week.

 

[arvin charles]

I think what you're getting at is for PD to prioritize performance cars over the oddball/buck-a-pop cars, correct?

I do!!! I'd rather PD put in a BMW M1 before something like a Tata or a Midget.

there are a hell of a lot of cars far more deserving, in my eyes, to be in the original release than the Model T, 360, Fiat 500, Toyota Vitz etc.

Yep, where's DeTomaso, the D-Type, the "Batmobile" M3 and the 917K? Just to name a few.

You look me in the avatar and tell me you didn't smile when you got the pink 2CV as a prize in GT4, or the pink Yaris (Vitz) in GT3.

2CV, yes. That's the quintessential classic French car. The Yaris? yawn.

The thing is KY wants GT to be a history of the automobile. Racing and racecars are a HUGE part of that. So yes, I want more racing simulator.

And I'll agree that Forza 2's list is pretty to close to what I'd want in the virtual garage.

 

[rexc]

remove cars like Daihatsu Midget, Ford Model T, Fiat 500, Subaru 360

there are a hell of a lot of cars far more deserving, in my eyes, to be in the original release than the Model T, 360, Fiat 500, Toyota Vitz etc.

Hey guys, lay off the Model T. Am I the only one that used to take it around the Nurburgring ? That was plenty of fun, and you had time to admire the scenery

 

[daan]

Hey guys, lay off the Model T. Am I the only one that used to take it around the Nurburgring ?

Nope.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2082569&postcount=68

I love taking all the wee, old, low-powered cars round the 'ring. It's great fun seeing how seldom you have to brake...

 

[Famine]

I agree with those that want as many cars as possible regardless of the type. GT4 offered the best selection out of all the versions to date. However I do not think the races was set up anywhere close to capture the incredible car selection that they had. The primary restriction was country orgin which severely limited what races cars could enter. Take the same car selection as GT4, then add online, 16 car fields, private lobbies etc. and it would make for some of the best races ever. Especially if you could establish private racing leagues etc. where you could hook up with the same drivers every week.

You raise an interesting point. I enjoy the massively varied selection of cars because I primarily race GT4 in LAN mode at the UKGTP events. I rarely do the races within the Simulation Mode of the game itself which are, yes, very prescriptive.

That said, there is often quite a variety of cars you can use for a different challenge - see the 200pt A-Spec Club (dedicated to getting as many A-Spec points as possible for each race).

I do!!! I'd rather PD put in a BMW M1 before something like a Tata or a Midget.

I'll take all of them thanks. It's not like there's precious disc space to preserve.

Yep, where's DeTomaso, the D-Type, the "Batmobile" M3 and the 917K? Just to name a few.

Have PD modelled these cars and acquired licences to use them in the game?

(their absence indicates "No")

2CV, yes. That's the quintessential classic French car. The Yaris? yawn.

"The" Yaris? Yawn?

There's four Yarises in GT4, ranging from a very low-powered econobox running on 13" steelies to the mental Yaris RS Turbo which is on a par for pace with the Lancia Delta HF Integrale...

 

[Sniffs]

some of us don't wanna see GT turned into yet another cash cow racing game that has nothing in it but race mods. those games are for screwing around with. with the GT's, I've learned something, get to look at oldies and antiques I only see setting pretty at car shows, handle even COMMON cars I'll never be ale to afford, and it has proved to me that europe does not have solid lemons that disintegrate the minute they leave Europe (Europe's non luxury brands' collective rep in the US)

again, though, it strikes me that no-one bothers with trying to tune or race the putt-putts, three pots, or anything under a V6 (with evos and WRX's excepted).

c'mon, guys. if PD makes something like a freakin CROSLEY available in the full GT5, I'm gonna pounce on it, cause I wanna see what they'll do. after all, some of us will never get to look at one for fear by some collector that the paint will be scratched on their precious Trailer Queen investment for their retirement! if GT is as close as I'll ever get behind the wheel of american and other antiques, I want a few oddballs in the mix.

 

[arvin charles]

Have PD modelled these cars and acquired licences to use them in the game?

(their absence indicates "No")



"The" Yaris? Yawn?

There's four Yarises in GT4, ranging from a very low-powered econobox running on 13" steelies to the mental Yaris RS Turbo which is on a par for pace with the Lancia Delta HF Integrale...

That's 3 Yarises too many, IMO. Put the top of the line one and call it a day. PD has licenses for Jaguar & BMW if I'm not mistaken...Jaguar, BMW, Mercedes are grossly underrepresented and you guys are content to take Yaris(s) & Midgets? Where's the 8 series BMW?

And as far as the Yaris RS Turbo, I'd pick the Lancia over the Yaris everytime.

 

[Dave A]

The problem with this now is your simply arguing opinion against opinion of what cars more worthy to be included ror not. You're still missing the fact that having one car isn't automatically a trade off for another. For all you know PD might have tried to get the 8 series and the M1 in the game but perhaps they simply couldn't for one reason or another. We don't know why, we just know that they arn't in. You seem to be seeing this as a trade off, let's trade the Midget with the M1, well it doesn't work like that. If PD get both licenses they will include both car, and getting one license doesn't mean they can't get the other. You say you'd pick the Lancia over the Yaris, probably a lot of Westerners would, but what about Asian people, Japanese in particular. You can't argue the performance point since the Yaris RS can keep up with a Lancer Evo, infact it's probably the quicker of the two cars on a track irl.

The GT series is great because it has such a wide range of cars, I don't want to lose any of them be it the Midget, Yaris, Lancer or the supercars like the XJ220 and Speed 12 etc. I have zero objections to cars being added though. With GT being online now getting licenses in time will be less of a problem since PD will be able to make cars available after launch. I just hope that this doesn't stop them putting the same effort into getting the liceses before the deadline in the first place though.

As Famine said, disk space isn't an issue, there isn't a trade off of car a or car b but you can't have a and b. It doesn't work like that, you get what PD get access to, simple as.

 

[arvin charles]

You say you'd pick the Lancia over the Yaris, probably a lot of Westerners would, but what about Asian people, Japanese in particular.

I can't speak for the Japanese, but I'm Asian. And I'd still pick the Lancia regardless of my descent.

I have zero objections to cars being added though. With GT being online now getting licenses in time will be less of a problem since PD will be able to make cars available after launch. I just hope that this doesn't stop them putting the same effort into getting the liceses before the deadline in the first place though.

I'll agree with that.

 

[Famine]

Jaguar, BMW, Mercedes are grossly underrepresented and you guys are content to take Yaris(s) & Midgets?

Yes.

It's not a choice of Yaris 1.5 vs. Jaguar XJR/BMW M1/Mercedes CLR. It's a choice of Yaris 1.5 vs. no car at all. What would I rather have? A car I can drive or PD to leave a gap because they've haven't modelled and/or got a licence to reproduce a car that's rare, interesting and fast enough to pass some unwritten, unspoken worthiness-to-be-in-GT test?

I'm content to take every car PD can throw at me - I've at least driven every single one of them in every single game they've sold (with the sole exception of the 4 additional models in Korean GT4 not in any other version of the game). I want more cars to drive - MOAR! - and I see no reason to take any car out.

 

[homeforsummer]

It's not a choice of Yaris 1.5 vs. Jaguar XJR/BMW M1/Mercedes CLR. It's a choice of Yaris 1.5 vs. no car at all...

...I'm content to take every car PD can throw at me

Exactly my sentiments. I'm not sure why it's so hard for people to grasp that they aren't trading small cars or oddballs for sports cars and racers.

What you see there is there because they were able to put it there.

 

[Hyst]

Quick question, do PD/can PD ever release official statements saying 'we tried to get x car but for whatever reason we couldn't.'?

All we seem to be able to say is 'well, maybe they couldn't put this car in'. It just frustrates me that cars such as the Audi S1, Ford Capri turbo, Lancia 037, and countless others I can name if you'd like continue to go unincluded. If it's a mere matter of money, fair enough, but I can't see why Audi, Ford, and Lancia wouldn't allow those cars to be used in a game when they've got no problem letting their current models, which are being sold to the public, be included. If they're licensed to another company or game, again fair enough.

It just frustrates me that so many great cars from the past and present aren't in these games, for whatever the reason.

 

[Dave A]

Not official statements no, but they have made comments. They have commented that certain manufacturers were asking for too much money when questioned about Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini's absences in GT4. They have also talked about manufacturers only offering licenses if certain conditions are met with regards to representation and use in the game. Sometimes it's neither a matter of money or representation it's simply a case of license handed out elsewhere being exclusive, meaning that the license caan't be given to anyone else.

You have to remember that PD can't include every car everyone wants. What cars you want don't equal what cars other people want. PD is catering for eveyone and at the same time offering a taste of everything in a single package. Something other games are well behind on. Pd have a budgets to stick to in order to make a profitt, they want to include as many cars and as many licenses as possible within thoes budgets. Sometimes that might mean not getting the Porsche license because they want 5 times more than Ford do. It's business, it's budgeted and it's catering for everyones or at least as diverse a range of tastes as possible.

 

[Famine]

Quick question, do PD/can PD ever release official statements saying 'we tried to get x car but for whatever reason we couldn't.'?

All we seem to be able to say is 'well, maybe they couldn't put this car in'. It just frustrates me that cars such as the Audi S1, Ford Capri turbo, Lancia 037, and countless others I can name if you'd like continue to go unincluded. If it's a mere matter of money, fair enough, but I can't see why Audi, Ford, and Lancia wouldn't allow those cars to be used in a game when they've got no problem letting their current models, which are being sold to the public, be included. If they're licensed to another company or game, again fair enough.

It just frustrates me that so many great cars from the past and present aren't in these games, for whatever the reason.

It's not just licensing - it's modelling too.

Say PD decide to include the Lancia 037. PD get the rights from Lancia to reproduce the image to which they hold copyright and to utilise the name to which they hold copyright. The next thing they need to do is get hold of one. They need to put the car through the PD car analysis schedule - photograph it from hundreds of angles, record the engine note at idle, at static 1krpm intervals, at full throttle to redline and back to idle and then drive it while hooked up to accelerometers to determine handling characteristics.

So not only do they have to secure the rights from manufacturers for the names and images, but they need to get hold of an example, test it and drive it. I'm sure Lancia would have one in their museum, but the chances of them getting it out to go to a PD test session are... slim. So they need to find a private owner - who's then going to let them drive his million-pound, ultra-rare, exotic nutter-car.

And then they need to make it about 5% worse so that there's a better in-game Japanese alternative. [/Satire]


There's a crapload of obstacles to getting the car encyclopaedia KY wants, and the rare beasts we all love (and all that was without even mentioning other "competitor" games grabbing exclusivity agreements). That doesn't mean they aren't trying, and it doesn't mean they plopped in some cheap, crappy econobox from Durkadurkistan instead.

 

[Hyst]

Fair enough. The two of you clearly know a lot more about it than I do.

 

[Suede53]

And then they need to make it about 5% worse so that there's a better in-game Japanese alternative. [/Satire]

That's one of the funniest things I've read on here in a long time! 👍

Also, like Famine, I've driven every car I could get my hands on since GT1 and will continue to do so with everything PD decides to include with GT5. Granted, I have my own personal wishlist but for all the cars that don't make it into GT, there is one I've either forgot about, never heard of, or never realized how much fun they could be to drive. To me, that is what makes the GT series so great.

 

[buickgnx88]

That doesn't mean they aren't trying, and it doesn't mean they plopped in some cheap, crappy econobox from Durkadurkistan instead.

How is Durkadurkistan this time of the year BTW?

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

How is Durkadurkistan this time of the year BTW?

 

[Daniel_Elessar]

i think no you can have much fun with the "lesser" cars swift cup is very great to see.
in gt2 my fav car was the alfa 155 touringcar wich isn't one of the most pp.
but it had a great memory of seeing it in the DTM in '93/'94 with Larini/Nanini behind the wheel. and now with the WTCC those aren't the fastest cars but it has more spectacle the most formula1 races.
I would love to see that kind of cars in GT5 historical GT's/ DTM and newer ones but well we have GTlegends/gtr for that. but it would be a draem for me with the looks of the ps3 graphics.

 

[FoolKiller]

I have to disagree with you, Hyst.

In GT1 my friend and I were having station wagon races. In GT2 it was old clunker races. GT3 we actually felt a bit off because there was a noticeable lack of older and smaller cars. That didn't stop us from racing what we did have though. In GT4 we raced trucks, wagons, hatchbacks, and hybrids. Oh and old classics, like the original VW Beetle. And if we could have we would have raced the older 1800's Daimler-Benz motor carriages. That was the first thing we tried when I won it.

Then I remember my brother got a PS2 and was interested in watching me play GT4 because it was definitely technically beautiful, but he isn't a car guy. So, then he asked if it had a Prius like his (first design, 2002?). I went into my garage and showed him that I already had it in the same color and with the same wheels. All it was missing was his kayak roof rack. Seeing how detailed the battery charge meter and stuff were on top of it really excited him. He bought GT4 the next day.

It definitely draws in more people with these every man cars and you'll find that they rarely stray from them, but when they do they learn even more. I remember my brother asking how it was physically possible to get more than 10 A-spec points. To prove how easy it was, I set up a 100 A-spec point race and won on the first try. Next thing I know he is asking me about tuning and racing tips.

And when racing underpowered cars the race becomes much more technical. It is easy to lose your momentum and so it is a back and forth race, where as in a performance car race if one of you makes a mistake then the other guy is 10-20 seconds ahead by the time you recover. From that point you might as well be running a time trial because they only way to catch up is for your opponent to mess up too.


And then of course, there is also the ability to race your car against your friend's. I get myself a midnight blue MkV GTi (Just a Golf/Rabbit in real life) and my friend gets a silver Mazda 6. Then we race. We can race our cars without fear of harming the cars, ourselves, or others.

 

[TofuStoreDrift]

I prefer offline racing and I find nothing more satisfying then taking the "said" Yaris with 13" steelies and beating the crap out of the turbo version. You can find competition in anything. If you get rid of the econo-boxes and other odd cars than you might as well call it Need for Speed GT (referring to older versions).

 

[iLex]

My moms boyfriend (manfriend :-) ) had hours of fun driving a stock (old) beetle using my Logitec wheel around... I think it was Citta Di Aria in GT4. He drove it like he was having a sunday afternoon drive. No other car on the track and the needle didn't go near the redline :-)


On another note: Ofcourse there is a trade off. Maybe it's not directly between cars, but PD has to decide what to model in the time they have. They have to pick certain cars over others. This isn't directly related to licenses.
When GT3 came out, it had less cars than GT2, but then GT4 had more cars again. I don't think this is because the number of licenses suddenly dropped after the succes of GT2 (and then increased after GT3) but because it took more time to model the cars for PS2 and PD had to do them all over again (they probably could port a lot of the outside of GT3's cars for GT4). Now with GT5 we're probably looking at the same problem. The physics engine is more complex and they have to create the inside of every car as well as the outside. They'll have to make decisions and these decisions could well be between the Yaris and a Lancia.
The other thing is that I don't think licensing for a game like this is simple. Toyota probably wants the Yaris to be in the game for marketing purposes.
But if there really were no trade offs at all, we'd probably be seeing a 4 disc set of just about every car from GT1 to the new ferraris in GT5.

 

[sxy rider 39]

Don't know about all the marketing and contract stuff that goes along with these decisions. However, I wouldn't lament the loss of ALL the econo-boxes for replacement sports cars and racers. Sorry if that sounds a lil harsh, but the opponent AI in the lower class races is usually pretty bad, so those races aren't too fun. Plus, even if you ramp up the difficulty to 100%, you're still not going very fast (still not that fun). And it only takes a day or so to get enough money for proper sports cars and racers, so i feel little/no drive to go back to cruising some bitchingly modeled racetracks in the buckets. My $.02

 

[homeforsummer]

When GT3 came out, it had less cars than GT2, but then GT4 had more cars again. I don't think this is because the number of licenses suddenly dropped after the succes of GT2 (and then increased after GT3) but because it took more time to model the cars for PS2 and PD had to do them all over again (they probably could port a lot of the outside of GT3's cars for GT4). Now with GT5 we're probably looking at the same problem. The physics engine is more complex and they have to create the inside of every car as well as the outside. They'll have to make decisions and these decisions could well be between the Yaris and a Lancia.

If you'll remember, GT3 was a little light on content as far as unusual or small cars went. Apart from the Rover Mini Cooper and one or two Kei cars, I think the slowest car in the game was something like the Civic VTi. And the Mini was probably the most oddball too.

This scuppers the views of all those thinking that PD are trading supercars for tiddlers - given the time constraints of GT3, they apparently chose faster cars over slower ones.

But, given how long it's taking to produce GT5, I doubt we're going to lose much in the way of content this time anyway - there'll be a lot of cars.

 

[Motominded]

should have a mix of both but i am a racing die hard so as Kaz wants a car encyclopedia, he should also want a racing encyclopedia.

 

[Ardius]

should have a mix of both but i am a racing die hard so as Kaz wants a car encyclopedia, he should also want a racing encyclopedia.

I'd rather have the car encyclopedia first. Creating the race element is up to us now we are finally getting online play.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> There are many discussions like this that I participated in the past (GT2, GT3, & GT4). But as I read through the thread, it sparked a quite a heated disscussions from here and there.

-> For me personally, I would rather have a 'Real Driving Simulator' instead of 'Real Racing Simulator'. Because its simple, there are so many racing games out there. Plus I have tried many 'racing' games ranges from arcade to console and PC.

-> A sim that is purely based on racing bores me easily, I have a friend who is like Hyst, love racing with Liveries not production cars. So his games varies from TOCA Race Driver, Race Driver Grid and GTR2, all his games are PC ported via Logitechs Momo steering.

-> My racing experiences with him was fun (I always beat him most of the time), but it got tiresome in the long-run. I'm not really into Livery-type cars at all, it is somewhat boring. I like the feeling of driving normal to tuned everyday cars, its much more challenging and suspensful.

-> And most likey, I'd rather drive a Subaru 360 than any cars that are featured in either Grid, GTR2, and NFS.