Xbox Japan: "Forza 6 includes weather, night racing, 450 cars"

[Mitsurugi]

There has been articles in the past about PD/T10 obsession with hitting a target frame-rate and not dipping below that. It's really a philosophy that is at the heart of their games development. FH2 is locked at 30fps, never dips, and is in a open world, where any number of crazy stuff could happen, and yet frame-rates still holds.

Yes we now its a fixed box, only so much performance available etc.. so therefore T10 will not add any features it feels will possibly compromise their 60fps mantra on XB1. They have development tools that help with this process, and also pre-production stage is usually when they decide what techniques/strategy their going to go with to achieve their goals for the game.

 

[GranTurismo guy]

There has been articles in the past about PD/T10 obsession with hitting a target frame-rate and not dipping below that. It's really a philosophy that is at the heart of their games development. FH2 is locked at 30fps, never dips, and is in a open world, where any number of crazy stuff could happen, and yet frame-rates still holds.

Yes we now its a fixed box, only so much performance available etc.. so therefore T10 will not add any features it feels will possibly compromise their 60fps mantra on XB1. They have development tools that help with this process, and also pre-production stage is usually when they decide what techniques/strategy their going to go with to achieve their goals for the game.

I really can't expect them to reach a constant 60fps with 24 cars on track and weather.

 

[McLaren]

I agree. Its very unlikely we will see dynamic in F6 but I am okay with that. In fact when I asked for night / weather I was always asking for at least the ability to pick night weather. Maybe toggle on or off.

We have dynamic in FH2 and I absolutely LOVE it, but I am okay with it not being dynamic in Forza 6. I just hope we can at least pick night weather for each track. But I am expecting it to be restricted to only certain tracks. If we can pick night weather for all tracks, I will be beyond impressed.

My thoughts as well. GT had to start this way with #3 (IIRC, SSR7 was available with wet or dry conditions) & it eventually got there. Shows T10 is trying to please everyone.

Personally, would like to go back to racing (or have the option) on a clear, bright day. Sebring & a couple others look great at dusk/dawn, but would still like to see them back in the midday.

 

[SimTourist]

I really can't expect them to reach a constant 60fps with 24 cars on track and weather.

How about we wait for the actual game first and then see. I don't expect weather effects to be as heavy as PCars, hell, even DC and FH2 don't have that much spray on the track, transparencies always tank the framerate. If FM6 uses FH2's weather then it will be small puffs of water behind rear tires and not much else, nothing that X1 can't process at 60 fps.

 

[Wolfe]

I really can't expect them to reach a constant 60fps with 24 cars on track and weather.

The reality is: we can't expect them to betray the inflated standard they've set for graphics by making the necessary (and totally feasible) sacrifices to make it happen. The game is too "pretty".

 

[espeed623]

I agree--the proof will be in the pudding. In the mean time, we're stuck waiting until E3 (which isn't very long) and launch (which I assume will be the usual Oct/Nov timetable).

This is just my opinion, but I really think there's enough oomph with the new 7th core, DX12, and Forzatech technologies to allow for 24-car, *possibly dynamic* night/weather racing.

 

[Speedster911]

Without wishing to turn this into a vs thread, have you even seen the level of detail that goes into the modelling of vehicles in pcars? Then again, it may be that the xb1 version looks inferior to fm5 due to the lower resolution. But it goes without saying as every car is completely modelled inside and out in PCARS, it's currently ahead of evrything in this aspect.

On topic, "Forza tech" suggests a new physics engine or something of the sort, furthering my suspicions of dipping fps.

I have seen the details on car modelling - on PC it is drop-dead gorgeous; on X1, fairly run of the mill. The X1 version does look inferior compared to Fm5, and it's not a resolution thing. In fact, PCARS looks sharper and has less jaggies, but the detail levels remind me of GT on the PS2.

I'm not sure if you own FM5, but the car detail inside and out is very impressive for a console. PC games always will be in a class of their own, and it makes no sense at all to pit them up against console games.

It doesn't matter how well the cars are modelled in PCars, because the game looks terrible on Xbox One in places.

It does, certainly. The driving feels good in PCARS, the sounds are decent, actually pretty good on some cars, but visually it looks like a last gen game running at a shaky 60 fps.

I don't think they did have the extra core. Source?

To answer your second post:

Forza tech = new engine?? = more complicated

more complicated engine + weather = More likely for frame rate to drop. Simples.

In the past decade, not once have they sacrificed theuir industry standard of 60 fps FM games. Run a comparison between FM2, 3 and 4 - do you recall how much prettier and detailed FM3 was? It was nearly a night and day difference... nearly. Then FM4 came around, and ditched some of the track detail for more and better looking cars, along with all the other improvements (physics and audio do take up a reasonable chunk of processing power).

This far into the franchise, I highly doubt they're ditching the 60 fps and there will be likely sacrifices in order to hold up the 60 fps just like there have been compromises here and there in the previous FM games. Though given the Xbox Japan update, we may very well see the fps touch 50 in night and weather. Probably won't go below that.

In all honestly, this is an exciting time to be an X1 owner; it'll be very interesting to see how T10 pulls this off.

I agree--the proof will be in the pudding. In the mean time, we're stuck waiting until E3 (which isn't very long) and launch (which I assume will be the usual Oct/Nov timetable).

This is just my opinion, but I really think there's enough oomph with the new 7th core, DX12, and Forzatech technologies to allow for 24-car, *possibly dynamic* night/weather racing.

Or in this case the proof will be in the puddles...3D ones at that.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Forza tech = new engine?? = more complicated

Not necessarily. It could be optimized in a way that works better on the console than FM5's engine, since that game needed to be a launch title. It could go either way, really.

more complicated engine + weather = More likely for frame rate to drop. Simples.

I look at it like this: GT6 manages these sorts of things while hitting something between 40 and 60 fps, with 16 cars on track, and fairly simple weather. Even with all Premium cars in the field, it doesn't really dip below that.

The One is massively more powerful than the PS3, and T10 has a fair amount of time invested in the console by now. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that they'll nail this target, even with 24 cars on track. I wouldn't doubt we'll see some pretty drastic LOD changes to try to manage it, too.

 

[SimTourist]

In fact, PCARS looks sharper and has less jaggies, but the detail levels remind me of GT on the PS2.

Holy hyperbole batman, some tracks like Laguna look worse than others, but in no way is it comparable to ps2 games. What the hell are you smoking man? Car interiors also look a lot better than FM5 thanks to realistic shaders and proper animations.

visually it looks like a last gen game running at a shaky 60 fps.

If that's the case, then FM5 is like a ps1 game lol.

 

[Speedster911]

Holy hyperbole batman, some tracks like Laguna look worse than others, but in no way is it comparable to ps2 games. What the hell are you smoking man? Car interiors also look a lot better than FM5 thanks to realistic shaders and proper animations.

If that's the case, then FM5 is like a ps1 game lol.

I ain't smoking nothin' funky.."maaan"..!

Tracks do look bland.. I said PS2, because they hardly look any better than GT3/4 (upped several levels in resolution and sharpness). The interior animations are pretty good...detail? Amm, no. Shaders are pretty decent too.

You ARE referring to the X1 Pcars version, yeah?

I cannot imagine from what angle you can say PCARS on X1 looks as good or better than FM5.

For a launch title, FM5 is a very good looking game. PCARS devs had more time to get to know the hardware, yet the final product isn't all that impressive, visually.

 

[SimTourist]

I ain't smoking nothin' funky.."maaan"..!

Tracks do look bland.. I said PS2, because they hardly look any better than GT3/4 (upped several levels in resolution and sharpness). The interior animations are pretty good...detail? Amm, no. Shaders are pretty decent too.

You ARE referring to the X1 Pcars version, yeah?

Yeah, I'm playing the X1 version. It completely blows FM5 out of the water visually.

 

[Speedster911]

Yeah, I'm playing the X1 version. It completely blows FM5 out of the water visually.

Okay then, matter of personal opinion.

 

[Fat Tyre]

Alright anyone read the news that oculus rift will be compatible with the xbone? Hopefully they will let us use it for autovista (at least). Should be amazing if it happens. Don't have the links now but you can google it.

 

[Mitsurugi]

For a launch title, FM5 is a very good looking game. PCARS devs had more time to get to know the hardware, yet the final product isn't all that impressive, visually.

In fairness pCars is doing a lot more under the hood compared to F5; certainly in terms of simulating weather effects/TOD, plus up to 40 plus cars on track. This itself is a significant undertaking for any developer. Furthermore, pCars is a multi-platform game; it actually started life as a PC only game, and I can tell you that for the PC version to look close to the screen shots/footage that SMS are fond of showing off to the media, you are going to needs a monster of a PC. Basically a 5TF GPU like a Nvidia GTX970 paired with an i7 CPU to hold close to a 1080px60fps. Even then there are dips especially with 30 plus cars on track with weather, at the ultra-uber settings. So bearing that in mind, what we have is a port of the PC, as opposed to a game like F5 written specifically to the strengths of the host platform.

T10 regardless of the circumstances hit the right balance with F5 for a lunch title. It is still the only 1080x60fps sim-racer on consoles after all. pCars on XB1 is receiving a circa 14% performance boost via optimisations/DX12, it still won't be where it needs to be, but I have to give respect to the developers for taking the hard choices, and continuing their support for the product.

And yes in normal daylight conditions, Forza looks better than pCars, but you have to keep in mind F5 is using baked lighting techniques, whilst pCars is doing it real-time. pCars does hold a fairly steady 50-60fps under these condition with 20 or cars on track. It's only when the weather kicks in does the fps take a significant nose dive.

 

[Speedster911]

In fairness pCars is doing a lot more under the hood compared to F5; certainly in terms of simulating weather effects/TOD, plus up to 40 plus cars on track. This itself is a significant undertaking for any developer. Furthermore, pCars is a multi-platform game; it actually started life as a PC only game, and I can tell you that for the PC version to look close to the screen shots/footage that SMS are fond of showing off to the media, you are going to needs a monster of a PC. Basically a 5TF GPU like a Nvidia GTX970 paired with an i7 CPU to hold close to a 1080px60fps. Even then there are dips especially with 30 plus cars on track with weather, at the ultra-uber settings. So bearing that in mind, what we have is a port of the PC, as opposed to a game like F5 written specifically to the strengths of the host platform.

T10 regardless of the circumstances hit the right balance with F5 for a lunch title. It is still the only 1080x60fps sim-racer on consoles after all. pCars on XB1 is receiving a circa 14% performance boost via optimisations/DX12, it still won't be where it needs to be, but I have to give respect to the developers for taking the hard choices, and continuing their support for the product.

And yes in normal daylight conditions, Forza looks better than pCars, but you have to keep in mind F5 is using baked lighting techniques, whilst pCars is doing it real-time. pCars does hold a fairly steady 50-60fps under these condition with 20 or cars on track. It's only when the weather kicks in does the fps take a significant nose dive.

14% boost? Apparently I've been out of touch - the recent patch boosts performance by 5-7%, no?

I'm missing something here.. did PCARS devs make a statement that we're getting a 14% boost post DX12?

I've seen plenty of screen and vids of PCARS on a maxed out PC, and believe me, it's the most mind-blowing driving game I've seen to date. Too bad the same can't be translated on a console, or we'd probably be looking at $1000 consoles or higher.

Yeah, Forza 5 is decent for a launch title, but they consistently improve with each game. Why they need 2 or 3 games to reach that level and fully tap into the console's strengths, I'll never know!

 

[SimTourist]

14% boost? Apparently I've been out of touch - the recent patch boosts performance by 5-7%, no?

The recent patch brought 5%, Dx12 will bring about 5% more according to Ian Bell. Worth noting that 10% of a 60 fps target is 6 frames, not mind-blowing but anything is welcome.

 

[GranTurismo guy]

The recent patch brought 5%, Dx12 will bring about 5% more according to Ian Bell. Worth noting that 10% of a 60 fps target is 6 frames, not mind-blowing but anything is welcome.

6fps is a huge difference if the frame rate is dipping by about 10fps or so.

 

[Mitsurugi]

14% boost? Apparently I've been out of touch - the recent patch boosts performance by 5-7%, no?

I'm missing something here.. did PCARS devs make a statement that we're getting a 14% boost post DX12?

I've seen plenty of screen and vids of PCARS on a maxed out PC, and believe me, it's the most mind-blowing driving game I've seen to date. Too bad the same can't be translated on a console, or we'd probably be looking at $1000 consoles or higher.

Yeah, Forza 5 is decent for a launch title, but they consistently improve with each game. Why they need 2 or 3 games to reach that level and fully tap into the console's strengths, I'll never know!

As someone else has pointed out it's circa 5% through optimisations, then they expect further improvements to track asset optimisations, and finally if Microsoft can get the DX12 SDK to SMS quick enough they'll do the conversion, which is said to be around another 7%. So we can expect around that level of improvement at the very least. With regards to DX12, please keep in mind they are making educated guesses based on the way their engine works, and Ian Bell did say their engine is specifically geared to take advantage of the main benefits DX12. Future rendering engines that are built from the ground up for DX12 should provide additional benefits, but we won't see that until the 3rd wave of titles.

P.S. There was some controversy of his initial 40% improvement figure, which he later clarified was for PC only.

 

[Mitsurugi]

Just to add here below is Ian Bells forum responses over at WMD:

 

[imported_skidmark]

No console racing game has ever pulled off a locked 1080/60fps with dynamic lighting/weather so IF T10 pull it off it will be a miracle. The reason I didn't get into gt5-6 was the slowdown/screen tear.. Something Forza NEVER has and I love T10 for that.

 

[espeed623]

Not certain if anyone focuses on the Week in Reviews, but... Porsche will definitely be in Forza 6. Just not at launch, of course.

And I quote:

The launch of the Porsche Expansion is just part of the good news for Forza fans. That’s because we’ve also announced that we’ll be bringing the Porsche experience to Forza Motorsport 6 in 2016. We’ll have more to say about this integration in the future so stay tuned.

 

[Daniel]

No console racing game has ever pulled off a locked 1080/60fps with dynamic lighting/weather so IF T10 pull it off it will be a miracle. The reason I didn't get into gt5-6 was the slowdown/screen tear.. Something Forza NEVER has and I love T10 for that.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Project CARS have 1080p60 with dynamic lighting and weather on the PlayStation 4? There's some frame drops once in a while if you're on a track with the maximum amount of cars, but that's still pretty rare.

 

[Arixant]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Project CARS have 1080p60 with dynamic lighting and weather on the PlayStation 4? There's some frame drops once in a while if you're on a track with the maximum amount of cars, but that's still pretty rare.

It wasnt a constant 60, the game more or less hovers around the 50fps area and then tanks once rain or the time of day starts changing.

 

[SimTourist]

It's worth noting that PCars' budget is like pocket change compared to FM/GT, that puts certain limitations on them.

 

[RacerPaul]

Seems that we as gamers are missing out on a lot of gaming goodies because of devs obsession with 60fps

Sure, you can tell the difference between 60 and 30, but 30 isn't the end of the world. It'd be better locked
at 30 rather than trying for 60 and having it go up and down all over the place

Imo, of course

 

[Arixant]

It's worth noting that PCars' budget is like pocket change compared to FM/GT, that puts certain limitations on them.

Or they didn't bother optimizing anything for AMD based machines, which both of the current gen consoles are on.

 

[SimTourist]

Or they didn't bother optimizing anything for AMD based machines, which both of the current gen consoles are on.

If they didn't bother it would run at 720p/30fps at best. People need to realize that PS4/Bone aren't super mega powerful machines that can handle absolutely everything you throw at them, even today's fastest GPUs can be brought to their knees if you put enough load on them. For a complex simulator with 40+ AI entities on screen, dynamic lighting, lots of alpha used for rain SFX PCars does an impressive job performing as good as it does. FM5 is 1080p/60fps, sure, but it's also using pre-baked lighting for tracks (in basic terms there is no lighting being processed when you're playing, I'm sure if you turned off all the lighting in PCars your framerate would skyrocket), hardly any SFX, tiny sprites for smoke that look laughable in comparison and only 1/3rd of PCars's grids on screen. If there comes a racer that can match what PCars is doing all at 1080p/60fps then we can talk, hasn't happened so far.

 

[FordGTGuy]

The recent patch brought 5%, Dx12 will bring about 5% more according to Ian Bell. Worth noting that 10% of a 60 fps target is 6 frames, not mind-blowing but anything is welcome.

This isn't true.

Forza Motorsport 5 ran on a pre-launch SDK since then.

• 10% GPU reserve for Xbox One has been lifted.

• Many SDK updates that have probably created a 10% in performance increase by themselves if not more.

• DX12 is not a numbers game; Ian Bell made an educated guess that PCars might see a 7% performance improvement from DX12. To be clear PCars was never built with DX12 in mind and SMS does not have experience with DX12 or experience with the Xbox One like Turn 10 Studios does.

• Since Forza 6 was built with DX12 in mind since the beginning, it will have a large performance increase than a game that is simply updated to add a little more performance. It will also take advantage of new DX12 features that a game not built for the API would be capable of doing.

• PCars is also a multi-platform title and this holds it back in many ways and directly comparing what a multiplatform game not even built with DX12 in mind to a game that is first party and in fact built with it in mind is not a proper way of determining a percentage of improvement available due to the API.

• Forza 6 is also most likely using forward plus rendering when Forza 5 used deferred rendering. This does a few great things; it makes dynamic global lighting much cheaper to run, it makes MSAA an extremely cheap option to increase image quality, and it leaves a smaller footprint for the ESRAM to have to handle.

• Forza 6 is the first true sequel to a next generation first party title. This means it can and will see significant efficiency improvements over its predecessor.

• Recently Microsoft has opened another entire CPU core for game developers.

Anyone expecting the jump from Forza 5 to Forza 6 to be a small step is misleading themselves; this is equivalent to Forza 2 to Forza 3 if not more.

Do I spend way too much time and effort following this kind of news? You bet your ass I do.

 

[turk1993]

Found this on Gaf, it looks like rio is back in.

 

[FordGTGuy]

View attachment 389259 View attachment 389261
Found this on Gaf, it looks like rio is back in.

We've known that since the Xbox.jp leak, the picture below include the original text. It is badly translated from Japanese into English by whoever setup the page and Microsoft confirmed it is 60 fps.