Your predictions for the driver line-up, 2010

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Button has now agreed to join McLaren and will sign in the next day or two.

I'm disappointed by this, because I think Hamilton will act the same way he did when paired with Alonso. Still, it should make for an exciting season.
Stories have appeared in The Independent claiming Mercedes has matched Button's demands and he's looking to see if he can get any more out of them. I would bet my bottom dollar that both the Mercedes and McLaren contracts are near-identical and that Button is trying to separate them; the reason why it's being reported on the Mercedes side is because the British press want two British World Champions at a British team.

Either way, Button is pretty much guaranteed a good car and a solid platform for a title defence. I admire the way he isn't intimidated by Hamilton, but I still think walking into that team is a mistake.

Come on Mercedes: make him an offer he can't refuse.
 
Yeah, I could see that working. A lot of people seem to think that because there was no 18 and 19 this year following Honda's withdrawal, there will be no 9 and 10 because Toyota backed out and no 11 or 12 if Renault go the same way. Pit allocation would have to be assigned based on team finishing positons, though.

The reason there was no 18 and 19 was because Force India had already produced merchandise with 20 and 21 on it, so the FIA allowed a special case that they kept 20 and 21.
Otherwise, everyone gets moved up one grid slot every time a team leaves or is considered a new team.

So, thats rubbish, there will be a 9 and 10.
It will look like this:
1,2 McLaren (obviously depends on Button going there)
3,4 Mercedes (depends on them being considered the same team)
5,6 Red Bull
7,8 Ferrari
9,10 Williams
11,12 Renault
14,15 Force India
16,17 Toro Rosso
18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25 Manor/Campos/USF1/Lotus
26,27 (if Sauber return to the grid)
 
Yeah, I know. I've lost count of the number of times I've explained it.
18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25 Manor/Campos/USF1/Lotus
Lotus will almost certainly get the 24 or 25, or whichever numbers are immediately after Campos, Manor and USF1. The reason is that numbers are assigned in the order the teams joined the grid; while Lotus is a new team, it wasn't accepted until after the first three.
 
A good interview explaining the background behind the new Lotus entry:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8359642.stm

Their 2010 aims:
Finish all races
To be best of the new teams
Sometimes to get into Q2 qualifying

Long term aims:
To eventually move all parts of the team (windtunnel, design, manufacturing, etc) to Malaysia, though keeping a UK base.
Eventually win races, and fight McLaren and Ferrari (obvious ambition)

Currently they have bits of their operation all over the place - their designers are in Cologne, windtunnel in Bologna, assembly and manufactory in the UK, administration in Malaysia.
 
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Sounds like they've being both sensible an realistic about their goals. Remember when BAR announced that they'd win their maiden race? When was the last time anyone did that?

Ironically enough, Brawn - a future incarnation of British American Racing - are the only ones I can name.
 
The more I think about it, the more I think Jenson should go to McLaren. If that news of a 3 year contract is true, then thats far better than a 1 year contract with Mercedes, where he may not have a great car and he will be under pressure to beat Rosberg (or whoever goes there).
Whereas he isn't expected to beat Hamilton and McLaren will almost certainly produce a race-winning car if not at the start, at least by seasons end.

I suppose he has to question whether its worth being number 2 to Hamilton with what should be one of the best cars or number 1 to Rosberg with what may be one the best cars.

A long term future at McLaren is worth more in the end I think, he will be able to fight for more wins and I think he more than anyone would know what top seats like that are worth.
The talk of Hamilton's driving style being the opposite to Jenson's and this meaning the car won't suit him is rubbish - McLaren will design a car thats balanced and the drivers will setup a car to favour one style or the other. At least it won't be such a pronounced effect as some are suggesting. It will be a minor factor from race to race.
 
I suppose he has to question whether its worth being number 2 to Hamilton with what should be one of the best cars or number 1 to Rosberg with what may be one the best cars.
Apparently the sticking point for Button is that Mercedes are banking on Rosberg and will fashion him as their number one driver, while Button would be number two with a one-year contract that Mercedes would use to "assess" him. If I were Button, I'd be a bit sore because I'm the incumbent World Champion, and was the only driver to score in every event he finished in 2009 while Rosberg is an unproven driver who ambitions but no results save for the odd podium.

I'd still sign with Mercedes, though. It's a safer bet than McLaren.
 
How may I ask? Surely McLaren is a safer bet because they aren't going to pull out anytime soon.
Whereas Mercedes are just as likely as BMW to change their minds if it doesn't work out with Brawn. They have no reason to stay in F1 if it goes pear-shaped.

Of course, Ross Brawn is pretty much a guarantee for success, but that doesn't make McLaren rubbish - when was the last time McLaren were not competitive? Possibly 1994, 1995 and 1996.

Its quite clear Mercedes are not interested in keeping Button, otherwise they would have offered a better contract. So why would that be a safe seat? If he doesn't perform at McLaren, he probably won't be kicked out (look at Heikki). All he has to do is trail Hamilton and he has a safe 3 year contract with almost guaranteed wins somewhere and the possiblity of taking another championship if he can take advantage of any mistakes Lewis makes.

Both teams I'd say are equal in terms of how good they seem to be for 2010, so which would you take? 3 year contract with better salary or 1 year contract with a slighlty better salary?

I actually couldn't think of a safer seat than at McLaren or Ferrari. Some are saying he is crazy to go to McLaren, I think its crazy not to!
 
Just a question I have, will McLaren still use Mercedes engines? I'm a bit confused about that one.
How may I ask? Surely McLaren is a safer bet because they aren't going to pull out anytime soon.
Whereas Mercedes are just as likely as BMW to change their minds if it doesn't work out with Brawn. They have no reason to stay in F1 if it goes pear-shaped.
I disagree with that, Mercedes has been in F1 for a long time. First with Sauber and then Mercedes, it's clear they're quite serious about it.

Its quite clear Mercedes are not interested in keeping Button, otherwise they would have offered a better contract. So why would that be a safe seat? If he doesn't perform at McLaren, he probably won't be kicked out (look at Heikki). All he has to do is trail Hamilton and he has a safe 3 year contract with almost guaranteed wins somewhere and the possiblity of taking another championship if he can take advantage of any mistakes Lewis makes.
You have to remember that the contract Brawn offered was made back in the day when they were an independent company with not a lot of money. Now that they are Mercedes it should be different.

But for Button the problem is: will he be in Mercedes and have the pressure of not being German, meaning that in the future the team might prefer a German driver who's not as good as him? Or should he go to McLaren and run the risk of being Hamilton's second driver, getting worse equipment and worse strategy (according to Kovaleinen that's what happened to him)? I don't know, but I still think in Mercedes he would still be the centre of attention, and the competition with Rosberg would be easier. Plus, Mercedes looks like they'll have a better car for next year.
 
Just a question I have, will McLaren still use Mercedes engines? I'm a bit confused about that one.

I believe that McLaren have signed a 5 year engine contract with Merc and will buy back the 40% stake that Merc have in McLaren. 👍

But for Button the problem is: will he be in Mercedes and have the pressure of not being German, meaning that in the future the team might prefer a German driver who's not as good as him? Or should he go to McLaren and run the risk of being Hamilton's second driver, getting worse equipment and worse strategy (according to Kovaleinen that's what happened to him)? I don't know, but I still think in Mercedes he would still be the centre of attention, and the competition with Rosberg would be easier. Plus, Mercedes looks like they'll have a better car for next year.

For Button things have changed now he's won the championship. He now has that feather in his cap and no longer has to worry so much about being in the team that gives him the best chance of winning the title because he'll already go down in history as a F1 Champion. He now has the chance to secure his financial future too and for that he'll want to be in a team that will pay him the most, even if that means it's harder for him to win another title.
 
I disagree with that, Mercedes has been in F1 for a long time. First with Sauber and then Mercedes, it's clear they're quite serious about it.


You have to remember that the contract Brawn offered was made back in the day when they were an independent company with not a lot of money. Now that they are Mercedes it should be different.

But for Button the problem is: will he be in Mercedes and have the pressure of not being German, meaning that in the future the team might prefer a German driver who's not as good as him? Or should he go to McLaren and run the risk of being Hamilton's second driver, getting worse equipment and worse strategy (according to Kovaleinen that's what happened to him)? I don't know, but I still think in Mercedes he would still be the centre of attention, and the competition with Rosberg would be easier. Plus, Mercedes looks like they'll have a better car for next year.

My point was that McLaren are not going to pull out and are less likely than Mercedes are. Neither are going to pull out in the next 10 years, I'm pretty sure of that. But the point is Macca are a safer bet.

Its pretty obvious Brawn have been working on this Mercedes deal for a long time, possibly since Spain. So when they offered Button a contract, he would have known that it was with Mercedes not Brawn in the end.
Looking back with hindsight, there was some obvious signs that the deal had been done - mostly Norbert's repeated praise of Brawn in almost all interviews late in the season.

Mercedes may well be stronger next year than McLaren....but they are only offering a 1 year contract and are clearly not interested in keeping him around. A 3 year contract speaks volumes about McLaren's interest and the problem with strategy is a non-issue next year because everyone runs full fuel for races and no fuel for qualy.
About getting inferior parts, I reckon he would have that problem at Mercedes too if they really favour German drivers...
 
Brawn was the car to beat in the first 6 races. Red Bull was the car to beat for the last 11 races. Utilising your logic, if Button is 2nd rate then Barrichello must be 3rd rate and since Webber and Vettel had a better car for almost twice as long as Button then they must be 4th rate! Given that I'm of the opinion that Vettel is in the top three drivers on the grid, that just doesn't quite add up.

I'm sorry but you're not looking at any type of details. The Brawn chassis was absolutely dominant in the first 6 races...with no other team that could really come close to challenging them in the dry. By the time RBR had come on they had to fight off a very strong Mclaren and Brawn (as well as a few others) who were very competitive on certain tracks. Then you add the fact that RBR was using a Renault powerplant that was very weak at tracks like Monza and Spa as the results showed. And then you had Vettel's blown engine at Europe as well as other engines issues that ended costing him places on the grid....none of which JB had to deal with. Bottom line is that Brawn had no competition in the first 6 races...that's a fact.

I won't waste my time going any further as you only seem to want to pick out what suits your argument. I rate Button and Barichello about the same, both having their strong suits in different areas. Barichello would have likely taken Button out this year had it not been for his brake issues in the first 7 races or so anyway. And I would also put Webber in there with them, with Vettel being the stronger driver of the three, up with the top 5 on the grid. I think most of us can confidently say - if Vettel was in the Brawn last year he would have dominated either Barichello or Button as he would have been consistently toward the front more often than either of them.

On another note - Great to Button has joined with Mclaren. Should be interesting to see who takes the Brawn seats and what ends up happening to Raikkonen.

Tyred Tires: If you're so confident Button is on the same level as Hamilton why don't you put your money where your mouth is? I'll put $100 (sorry don't know what that is in Euro's :dopey:) on Hamilton outperforming Button in 2/3's of the races next year 👍 Otherwise, as they say talk is cheap, especially in an online debate :lol:
 
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Brawn was the car to beat in the first 6 races. Red Bull was the car to beat for the last 11 races. Utilising your logic, if Button is 2nd rate then Barrichello must be 3rd rate and since Webber and Vettel had a better car for almost twice as long as Button then they must be 4th rate! Given that I'm of the opinion that Vettel is in the top three drivers on the grid, that just doesn't quite add up.

Yes, Barrichello is and always was a third rate driver if not forth.

I'm surprised that some people don't see that.
 
Peter you are so right his crashes are fun and fairly harmless. go peter . Sato for next year at manorTHE DOLE QUEUE

That's better!


Good job for Manor, Glock is a good driver and will hopefully lead the team to good things

The reason there was no 18 and 19 was because Force India had already produced merchandise with 20 and 21 on it, so the FIA allowed a special case that they kept 20 and 21.
Otherwise, everyone gets moved up one grid slot every time a team leaves or is considered a new team.

So, thats rubbish, there will be a 9 and 10.
It will look like this:
1,2 McLaren (obviously depends on Button going there)
3,4 Mercedes (depends on them being considered the same team)
5,6 Red Bull
7,8 Ferrari
9,10 Williams
11,12 Renault
14,15 Force India
16,17 Toro Rosso
18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25 Manor/Campos/USF1/Lotus
26,27 (if Sauber return to the grid)

One thing that has always got me bothered, why don't they have a number 13?

Mercedes has been in F1 for a long time. First with Sauber and then Mercedes

When was that? That must have been ages ago!

Yes, Barrichello is and always was a third rate driver if not forth.

I'm surprised that some people don't see that.

How dare you! HOW DARE YOU!
 
I'm sorry but you're not looking at any type of details. The Brawn chassis was absolutely dominant in the first 6 races...with no other team that could really come close to challenging them in the dry. By the time RBR had come on they had to fight off a very strong Mclaren and Brawn (as well as a few others) who were very competitive on certain tracks. Then you add the fact that RBR was using a Renault powerplant that was very weak at tracks like Monza and Spa as the results showed. And then you had Vettel's blown engine at Europe as well as other engines issues that ended costing him places on the grid....none of which JB had to deal with. Bottom line is that Brawn had no competition in the first 6 races...that's a fact.

I won't waste my time going any further as you only seem to want to pick out what suits your argument. I rate Button and Barichello about the same, both having their strong suits in different areas. Barichello would have likely taken Button out this year had it not been for his brake issues in the first 7 races or so anyway. And I would also put Webber in there with them, with Vettel being the stronger driver of the three, up with the top 5 on the grid. I think most of us can confidently say - if Vettel was in the Brawn last year he would have dominated either Barichello or Button as he would have been consistently toward the front more often than either of them.

On another note - Great to Button has joined with Mclaren. Should be interesting to see who takes the Brawn seats and what ends up happening to Raikkonen.

Tyred Tires: If you're so confident Button is on the same level as Hamilton why don't you put your money where your mouth is? I'll put $100 (sorry don't know what that is in Euro's :dopey:) on Hamilton outperforming Button in 2/3's of the races next year 👍 Otherwise, as they say talk is cheap, especially in an online debate :lol:

The only reason I responded to your post in the first place was to pick up on the point where you said Button was second rate. My point is that I don't agree with that. I don't think he's the best driver or even in my personal top four but I still rate him as a first rate driver.

Bold point. Where have I suggested that Button was better than Hamilton?
 
Yes, Barrichello is and always was a third rate driver if not forth.

I'm surprised that some people don't see that.

Explain. Rubens could beat Michael and Jenson on his day. At the very least that makes him a 2nd tier driver in my opinion.
Not to mention he's proven himself many times in inferior machinery, do all those years at Jordan, Stewart and Honda mean nothing now?

One thing that has always got me bothered, why don't they have a number 13?

I can't remember the specifics, but it was after a number of drivers were killed or had accidents in number 13 cars that the FIA stopped using it in motorsport during the 70s.
Its mostly a superstition thing but there is a weird story connecting some accidents related to 13.

When was that? That must have been ages ago!

1994 with Sauber.
1995-now with McLaren.

It happened because of Sauber and Mercedes' success at Le Mans with that famous car ;)

Before that, Mercedes were highly successful before 1955 - they actually are the oldest manufacturer who still races after Renault I think.
 
"Sato for next year at THE DOLE QUEUE"

No Sato is so much better than that he probably get a seat at one of the newer teams and if he does i cannot wait. It will be so fun and entertaining.
 
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Explain. Rubens could beat Michael and Jenson on his day. At the very least that makes him a 2nd tier driver in my opinion.
Not to mention he's proven himself many times in inferior machinery, do all those years at Jordan, Stewart and Honda mean nothing now?

Don't forget Hakkinen and Alonso.

he is one of the most respected drivers in the field and for someone like Nico Hulkenberg to come out and say that he is looking forward to working with Rubens and learning from him, that say's where he is!

Besides, if Rubens is third rate, what's he doing with one of the most successful "independant" teams in F1?
 
It seems, surprisingly, that Franck Montagny is being linked with the second Renault seat....

I understand Renault's desire to have a French driver but surely the best open wheel French driver right now would be Bourdais? Grosjean has been horrible and Montagny was unimpressive at Super Aguri.

At least they are seemingly wanting to avoid Grosjean, his results were expected when Renault weren't developing the car, but all those spins surely were not down entirely to the car..

Button is an idiot. He is a great driver, and for sure the 2010 Mclaren will be a great car, but the last driver you want to be paired with at Mclaren as a top driver is Mclaren.

Great to hear Glock has secured a seat for next season though!

On the contrary, I think its actually the clever option...as I've already explained.

I mean, put it this way - if we were in 2008 and for whatever reason they offered Button a McLaren drive, would you still say its idiotic? Its less pressure to be with a teammate you aren't expected to beat than one you are, at least when its Rosberg who many think is better than Button - Button would have to beat him or match him to satisfy Mercedes it seems.
 
Button is an idiot. He is a great driver, and for sure the 2010 Mclaren will be a great car, but the last driver you want to be paired with at Mclaren as a top driver is Mclaren.

Great to hear Glock has secured a seat for next season though!

That's a newspaper report so should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I'd much rather see Raikkonen at McLaren. The fight between him and Hamilton would be one to look forward to.
 
Heh, and just like I also said...Mercedes are not a safe bet:
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/091117135114.shtml

Like all manufacturers, they may well have chosen to leave this year. They haven't, but its only a matter of time. Of course, one voice of someone who doesn't care about the sport doesn't mean much, but the point is that voice is at Mercedes, just like all companies. They are not immune to the current financial difficulties just because they have more interest and value in F1 than others.

Compare this to McLaren and Ferrari, who, although manufacturers, have always existed for F1, they aren't going to have many people in the company questioning why they are in such a costly sport...
 
On the contrary, I think its actually the clever option...as I've already explained.

I mean, put it this way - if we were in 2008 and for whatever reason they offered Button a McLaren drive, would you still say its idiotic? Its less pressure to be with a teammate you aren't expected to beat than one you are, at least when its Rosberg who many think is better than Button - Button would have to beat him or match him to satisfy Mercedes it seems.

Well that's quite hard to compare, but in 2008 most thought Button was foing all but impressive. But that was of course not entirely his fault. What I'm trying to say is; I don't like the thought of Button having to use worse material or strategies than Hamilton, it is great though to see two British drivers driving for a British team, so I cross my fingers there will be no faul play between teammates that Button is actually not aware of. I'm wondering who'll join Rosberg at Brawn though...

I'd much rather see Raikkonen at McLaren. The fight between him and Hamilton would be one to look forward to.

Agreed. I hate to say it, and most of GTP's members might cut my limbs off of me after what Button did this season, but I do honestly think Raikkonen is by far the better driver over Button...
 
Well that's quite hard to compare, but in 2008 most thought Button was foing all but impressive. But that was of course not entirely his fault. What I'm trying to say is; I don't like the thought of Button having to use worse material or strategies than Hamilton, it is great though to see two British drivers driving for a British team, so I cross my fingers there will be no faul play between teammates that Button is actually not aware of. I'm wondering who'll join Rosberg at Brawn though...

Agreed. I hate to say it, and most of GTP's members might cut my limbs off of me after what Button did this season, but I do honestly think Raikkonen is by far the better driver over Button...

Well, I've already said that strategies are a non-issue. We don't have much in the way of strategies next year, just tyre changes, which should favour Button.

Worse parts though, well, we will have to see. I think its worth it considering its a 3 year deal, he gets paid better and he is clearly wanted. Surely its a better environment to be in a team wanting you to do well rather than one where they are testing to see if you are good enough.
Its not really surprising they favoured Hamilton over Kovalainen though...

I would say that Raikkonen was a better driver, but he isn't anymore. He still has his speed but he has been lacking something ever since leaving McLaren. Its constantly contended that his motivation is still there, but something must explain why he got matched and beaten by Felipe Massa...a man who looked very shaky at Sauber.
 
Button is an idiot. He is a great driver, and for sure the 2010 Mclaren will be a great car, but the last driver you want to be paired with at Mclaren as a top driver is Mclaren.
If he signs, maybe his confidence that he can hold his own with LewHam is exactly what he needs to dispel the mythos surrounding the second McLaren seat.

Bernie Ecclestone, however, reckons that the McLaren stuff is just a distraction. He thinks Button will be in a Mercedes Grand Prix car next year. He'll certainly be in a Mercedes-powered car, so I guess Ecclestone is half-right ...
 
The only reason I responded to your post in the first place was to pick up on the point where you said Button was second rate. My point is that I don't agree with that. I don't think he's the best driver or even in my personal top four but I still rate him as a first rate driver.

Bold point. Where have I suggested that Button was better than Hamilton?

Learn to read. I said on the same level. And that's great if you think he's a first rate driver...his performance in the 2nd half of last season was far from being first rate to most people, when he actually faced COMPETITIVE opposition.

At least I'll put my money where my opinion is when I say that Hamilton will take Button to the cleaners next year. Alonso and Hamilton were just about even when they were teamed together...so in order for Button to prove to me that he's to be considered first rate he better perform quite similarly to Hamilton.
 
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