Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[Strittan]

It doesn't get much better than that? Have you seen the premium cars? They get a LOT better than that...

That's sarcasm right there, right? Or did you seriously not understand that I meant the quality of the video? Jesus...

"No, I haven't seen the premium cars. What do they look like? I was born yesterday! Show me!"

 

[Griffith500]

The theory isn't sensible indeed, as they would have to duplicate some models on the disk, which would be a waste of space. GT5 certainly has the potential for doing the proper animations. I just hope PD do update the Standards to include the new raise headlight functionality as they did not on GT4 (atleast I don't remember them having it).

As for the wipers, that's a good video . Were all cars like that, or just certain models?

I think I remember seeing an animation in a publicity video, or perhaps an intro to one of the GTs that had a car's headlights pop up. I might be imagining it, though - or it could have been premium cars. It doesn't really matter, as it's a simple thing to batch process the cars, find which vertices are the headlamps (they'll be flagged) and add-in the animation, either in code or as part of the model file. The former is probably easier - originally, it'll only have been a switch at load-time, which loaded the model with the headlamps up (by displacing the flagged vertices), or not, depending. Changing the lamp textures is a bit harder, but should be fine if cached properly.

I know for a fact that it wasn't the 787B that I first noticed the shaky wipers on. It is one of the easiest cars to see the effect with, though. I'm not sure if it truly covers all cars. I remember when I first noticed it, we were all incredulous at first, but it's a good example of PD's attention to detail, so I'm sure they're conscious of the huge gulf in "quality" between the Standards and the Premiums.

 

[Devedander]

That's sarcasm right there, right? Or did you seriously not understand that I meant the quality of the video? Jesus...

"No, I haven't seen the premium cars. What do they look like? I was born yesterday! Show me!"

My bad... should know better than to read only the last post in the chain!

 

[Strittan]

My bad... should know better than to read only the last post in the chain!

Hehe, everyone makes mistakes.

 

[Devedander]

I am also confused by the regular insistance that screen grabs from a video are not good quality enough to compare off of... first off when looking for imperfections video HIDES them and would make the cars look better and make it HARDER to tell they were GT4 cars and secondly thats a direct feed video so it's way better than many of the photos of TV screens we get of stuff in the gaming world...

 

[Strittan]

I am also confused by the regular insistance that screen grabs from a video are not good quality enough to compare off of... first off when looking for imperfections video HIDES them and would make the cars look better and make it HARDER to tell they were GT4 cars and secondly thats a direct feed video so it's way better than many of the photos of TV screens we get of stuff in the gaming world...

Yeah, I don't get it.

And some think it's odd PD doesn't show any official screenshots of the standard cars, though it's obvious they don't want to because they basicly look like crap. Ok, not everyone think they look like crap, but compared to premiums they do...

 

[SuperCobraJet]

This concept is such an oddity, its very difficult to imagine how the cars are going to coexsist succesfully in the same game.

Keeping them seperated is a logical solution, although its seems that it would be almost impossible to do so, considering the numerical offset and the diverse makeup of Premiums.

 

[Reims_]

Can't believe this thread is still going...

 

[Kryz11]

I cant believe people complain for 60 dollars 1000 cars are not premium.. Especially in this gaming generation.

 

[Dravonic]

Can't believe this thread is still going...

Not sure why people are so amazed at this topic's popularity. We are talking about the core of the game, the most important aspect of it, the cars. It's a serious flaw where it hurts the most. It's only natural people want to express their opinions on the matter.

I cant believe people complain for 60 dollars 1000 cars are not premium.. Especially in this gaming generation.

There was a time where I thought paying 60 dollars for GT5 was just wrong. It had just too much content and deserved much more.

That was before standards were unveiled.

 

[Tornado]

It's quite simple to animate these existing vertices at run-time, in just the same way that spoilers / wings are already animated on many cars from GT4, and in GT5 and seemingly in GT5 proper.

That kinda depends on the car, really.

 

[Griffith500]

That kinda depends on the car, really.

What does?

 

[Tornado]

Whether they can animate the light movements simply by rotating the popups on an axis. Some cars it would work fine for, but for others (like the C3 Corvette) it would look awful.

 

[Griffith500]

Whether they can animate the light movements simply by rotating the popups on an axis. Some cars it would work fine for, but for others (like the C3 Corvette) it would look awful.

Sure, if the car's pop-up mechanism isn't a simple axis, then the correct method would be ideal. It's not like it'll be pushing the boundaries of real-time animation, since it's a well defined, mechanical motion. You can define most movements with a translation and rotation look-up (against time) which should work for all cars.

Most of the pop-up wing animations in GT4 weren't simple axis rotations, either

 

[Organ-Donor]

Yeah, I don't get it.

And some think it's odd PD doesn't show any official screenshots of the standard cars, though it's obvious they don't want to because they basicly look like crap. Ok, not everyone think they look like crap, but compared to premiums they do...

^^Funny, this is a current gen game and I would take the GT5 standard ("tard") cars over this, they may have less polygons but atleast they are more accurate and look realistic due to the lighting engine.

 

[supersquirrel]

and drift-able tires

 

[Devedander]

^^Funny, this is a current gen game and I would take the GT5 standard ("tard") cars over this, they may have less polygons but atleast they are more accurate and look realistic due to the lighting engine.

That's an open world racer closer in genre to GTA than any kind of track racer/simulation game so it's pretty far from apples to apples and even so, you can't use the GT5 lighting engine to credit the standard cars in GT5 because a fair comparison would be to use the models with the same lighting engine.

Remember when you are talking about the models specifically you can't say the model is better because it appears in a game with better lighting... the model itself is still just as inferior, it just has outside help covering it up.

And do bear in mind that car has a modeled interior and clear windows going for it....

To be fair, the fact that an open world racer like that has a car like that with actual panel gaps, modeled interior and smooth countours kind of says something about the standards in GT5...

Current gen? Yes. Comparable game type? No not really. Calling this game current gen and comparing assets to GT5 is like comparing the people in GTA4 to the people in Tekken 6... if the Tekken 6 people don't fully blow away the GTA ones, something is pretty wrong...

 

[Organ-Donor]

That's an open world racer closer in genre to GTA than any kind of track racer/simulation game so it's pretty far from apples to apples

Well I didn't want to take the Forza 3 route. The Forza lighting engine makes the cars look plastic and cartoonish, and the interiors look dull and fake. Yes the car models themselves are above and beyond GT5 standard cars (minus some inaccurate car models), but with the accuracy and lighting of GT5, when looking at the overall picture the standards don't look as horrible as everyone is making them out to be...excluding polygon counts. Personally I would rather have lower polygon car models with an incredible lighting system than very high polygon cars with a crap lighting system...lighting can totally distort the way your mind sees an object, not matter how good its modeled.

and even so you can't use the GT5 lighting engine to credit the standard cars in GT5 because a fair comparison would be to use the models with the same lighting engine.

Why not, I'm talking about the overall appearance of the car, the way it looks when taking all factors into consideration. The other games aren't using the GT5 lighting engine so why would I apply it to those games? GT4 car models are still more accurate than alot of current gen car models (regarding true to life accuracy).

Remember when you are talking about the models specifically you can't say the model is better because it appears in a game with better lighting... the model itself is still just as inferior, it just has outside help covering it up.

Again, I was talking about overall package, not specifically the car model itself, as I said before the car model itself is obviously not on par with current games.

 

[Devedander]

Well I didn't want to take the Forza 3 route. The Forza lighting engine makes the cars look plastic and cartoonish, and the interiors look dull and fake. Yes the car models themselves are above and beyond GT5 standard cars (minus some inaccurate car models), but with the accuracy and lighting of GT5, when looking at the overall picture the standards don't look as horrible as everyone is making them out to be...excluding polygon counts.
Why not, I'm talking about the overall appearance of the car, the way it looks when taking all factors into consideration. The other games aren't using the GT5 lighting engine so why would I apply it to those games? GT4 car models are still more accurate than alot of current gen car models (regarding true to life accuracy).


Again, I was talking about overall package, not specifically the car model itself, as I said before the car model itself is obviously not on par with current games.

I would say overall more fair comparison (wihtout going Forza) would be things like Dirt 2, Shift etc...

As far as overall the standards may be a prettier package due to GT5 lighting, but it's sadly not a slam dunk that I would rather have the GT5 standard models in GT5 than the midnight club models in GT5.

As I said, I think it's kind of dissapointing that a simiar comparison to Tekken 6 vs GTA4 when done with GT5 cars only comes up a win for GT5 20% of the time.

 

[Devedander]

There was a time where I thought paying 60 dollars for GT5 was just wrong. It had just too much content and deserved much more.

That was before standards were unveiled.

Have to agree... if GT5 had turned out to be all I had hoped (and that even means sans all the things I didn't hope for like day night and go karts) I would honestly not have felt gilted to get hit with a $100 price tag. I would have grumbled mind you, but it would have been fair.

We got some nice extras I wasn't expecting, but overall it feels more like GT6P than GT5. I felt like shelling out $25 for GT5p was a bit steep really... I think $60 for GT5 in terms of how it's shaping up is right around the fair price now.

 

[Organ-Donor]

As far as overall the standards may be a prettier package due to GT5 lighting, but it's sadly not a slam dunk that I would rather have the GT5 standard models in GT5 than the midnight club models in GT5.

I would, the Midnight Club models are not accurate like the GT4 models, true to life accuracy is something I would rather have than higher polygon counts. Even the MC:LA car models themselves aren't that impressive when comparing the Ps3 to Ps2 gap. Of course I would prefer both accuracy and PS3 quality polygon modeled cars in the same package, but as far as my personal taste the GT5 standard cars with the GT5 lighting makes it an easier pill to swallow than substandard cars in a crap lighting engine.

We got some nice extras I wasn't expecting, but overall it feels more like GT6P than GT5. I felt like shelling out $25 for GT5p was a bit steep really... I think $60 for GT5 in terms of how it's shaping up is right around the fair price now.

I'm assuming your talking about the whole standard/premium issue only because we know a small % of what GT5 will offer. How about playing the full game before making bold statements like that. From what little we have seen so far, GT5 has taken the GT series to a new level, something no other GT has done over the previous version. We aren't just getting new cars and tracks applied to GT4 with new graphics. All new physics engine, track maker, day/night cycles, dynamic weather, NASCAR, WRC, headtracking, 3D support, a full B-spec mode, an in depth online mode (my lounge) with private lobbies, online spectator mode, human-like AI, kart racing with 32 player grids, real time damage, skidmarks, reverse lights, etc., all these little things add up to take the GT series to the next level, and I'm sure there is more that we haven't even seen yet.

I wouldn't be so quick to pass GT5 off as just a placeholder until GT6. The features we have seen so far takes GT beyond anything we've seen before in the series, as well as packing in more content, if not the most, in one package than almost any other racing title out on the market.

 

[Killinator]

We aren't just getting new cars and tracks applied to GT4 with new graphics. All new physics engine, track maker, day/night cycles, dynamic weather, NASCAR, WRC, headtracking, 3D support, a full B-spec mode, an in depth online mode (my lounge) with private lobbies, online spectator mode, human-like AI, kart racing with 32 player grids, real time damage, skidmarks, reverse lights, etc., all these little things add up to take the GT series to the next level, and I'm sure there is more that we haven't even seen yet.

Part of the problem(I fell, and mabye others too) is that many of these features don't look like they will be as great as initially hoped.....
DON'T GET ME WRONG....
I never thought we would get a track creator or go-karts, etc

But,
We have seen nothing to indicate that WRC is anything more than a few licensed cars and a couple of rally stages, nothing to say that it will be proper rallying point to points with no other cars on track(at least not racing you anyway),

We have seen very little to differentiate the NASCAR racing from any normal racing mode, other than all cars being NASCAR and racing on a couple of new ovals,

The track creator(although a great feature) stills feels like it has been dumbed down massievly from what we have been told, and looks like its going to be a lot more limeted then originally thought,

Human-like AI is something we need to see more of, for every example of great AI we have 2 to 3 of the standard GT 'blind' AI,

Day/Night cycles havent even been shown properly, hoping that its not exactly the same as the Toscana demo all the time, will we see Day/Night/Day transitions, also the lack of this option on all tracks feels like a downer,

Real time damage, although impressive, some of the footage/screens leave a lot to be desired.

Its great being able to list out lots of new features for the game but so far many of them feel tainted(if thats the right word).

Of course they could all be super fleshed out(WRC/NASCAR/damage/AI) and we'll all be super happy,
But with PD letting the ball slip with standards, whos to say they haven't 'settled' with those other features aswell,

It is of course speculation, but I would feel its warranted specualtion.

 

[Mr Frappy]

Killinator, we haven't been shown much of the game at all, and that's they way it should be. Why do we need to know every single little detail of a game before it launches? All it does is make people bitch and moan about this and that, and ultimately set themselves up for disappointment.

Maybe they should start doing the same thing with films, tell you everything about the story and effects before you watch it....

 

[Killinator]

Killinator, we haven't been shown much of the game at all, and that's they way it should be. Why do we need to know every single little detail of a game before it launches? All it does is make people bitch and moan about this and that, and ultimately set themselves up for disappointment.

Maybe they should start doing the same thing with films, tell you everything about the story and effects before you watch it....

I don't want to see everything,
But if a license is included I'd like to know if its just some licensed cars or is there a bit more substance,
A lot of people would like to know why the NASCAR and WRC licenses are so great for this game, if its going to be the same old GT style 'rally' then its going to be a let down for many people, same goes for NASCAR.

I know it could be spectacular but it could also be a marketing ploy, and given PD decided to go the Standards/Premium route then I wouldn't be surprised if there was no substance to the WRC, NASCAR or several other features,

Believe me, I'd love to be surprised come November

 

[Mr Frappy]

I don't want to see everything,
But if a license is included I'd like to know if its just some licensed cars or is there a bit more substance,
A lot of people would like to know why the NASCAR and WRC licenses are so great for this game, if its going to be the same old GT style 'rally' then its going to be a let down for many people, same goes for NASCAR.

I know it could be spectacular but it could also be a marketing ploy, and given PD decided to go the Standards/Premium route then I wouldn't be surprised if there was no substance to the WRC, NASCAR or several other features,

Believe me, I'd love to be surprised come November

I highly doubt that WRC and NASCAR will be represented anywhere near the capacity that they are in stand-alone releases of those types of game. At best it will be a series of events with so many races in each event, just tailored to WRC or NASCAR with a few logos and branding thrown about to make it feel more substantial. I hope I'm wrong for the sake of those who care about it, but personally, I do not!

 

[Killinator]

I highly doubt that WRC and NASCAR will be represented anywhere near the capacity that they are in stand-alone releases of those types of game. At best it will be a series of events with so many races in each event, just tailored to WRC or NASCAR with a few logos and branding thrown about to make it feel more substantial. I hope I'm wrong for the sake of those who care about it, but personally, I do not!

Well thats kinda my point, I dont expect it to be anywhere near a fully fledged WRC game,
But like NASCAR its thrown around as one of the stand out new features coming to the game by the 'be happy with what you got' brigade or the 'ya but look at all these extra features you get' people ,
At the moment its no more standout than the rallying in any other GT title except for the license.
Like with standards and premiums before, many are lexpecting big things with these new features (the E3 trailer announcing both idnt help),
When they're(from what we've seen) more likely just shoe-horned into the series as an extra couple of bullet points on the back of the game box.

 

[VXR]

I think you need to closely examine the GT4 photomode shots you might have on file and see the rough edges, obvious texture gradients and fuzzy details, because they have not aged well at all.

And regardless of FM3's lighting engine, if you get the settings right, the cars look far better on-screen than GT4's last-gen cars. To say they don't is blind ignorance.

GT has never compromised on its car graphics and it's a farce that they are this time, having made the fans wait so long. The premiums might be able to claim they are far ahead of any console rival, but the standards - which might include your favourite car - are going to be PS2 models in a PS3 environment and will essentially still look as they did in photomode shots. If that's good enough for you, so be it, but don't claim they're accurate, because they are too rudimentary to be accurate.

 

[Nero9]

Standard cars look great to me. Premium cars are even better.

 

[DestinyDanny]

Standard cars look great to me. Premium cars are even better.

Agreed 👍

Of course when i first found out about the standards i was dissapointed as im sure everyone was, but i learned to love again and it doesn't phase me at all

 

[Ibonibo]

i don't really care as i drive from hood/bonnet/bumper view
and i don't intent to trash-crash my cars