Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[LaBounti]

I still cant figure out what is a 5 letter world that starts with "F" we can not say .

 

[Devedander]

I think he's referring to FM's 400(the FM2 cars are just not as good as the FM3) VS GT5's 200 premiums. Its common to take things out of context to make a sarcastic remark.

It's also common to use sacrasm and rhetoric to show someone how what they say can actually be damning against the very idea they are attempting to defend... double sided blade and all.

 

[Tenacious D]

(troll snippy)

If you change everything related to GT5 in that post for things related to Forza, it would seem that the person you are describing is actually yourself. And the sad part is that I'm not lying. And a few members (the members that I consider smart and non-fanboyish, go figure) can prove me right. Can't take you long to guess who those members are. A clue:

Spoiler

those who you seem to get in an argument with everytime you speak with them.

Well, an opinion can hardly be called a lie.

I know that unless I love Forza as much as other games, I'm some kind of blind ninnypoo to you, but that's fine. It's not exactly my job on this earth to make you happy. However, you might notice that there are far more people around here who think like I do than you. And you might be surprised to note how many people have eloquently stated, as I have, that you can point by point indicate why one game is better than the other in certain areas. And overall, how one game is superior to the other. It could be a wash, or one game could walk away with the trophy leaving the other in second place. Come November, we'll all be seeing, definitively.

I know this subject is a sticking point with some. Fortunately, it does seem to have dwindled to a chosen few who just really, really don't like the Standards. I can see not having an interior view being a sucky deal, but then again, a proper cockpit view is pretty rare in any racing game. And how many years have we been racing in Gran Turismo without one?

Premium cars will get visually torn up, while Standards will get scuffed and dented. I'm not sure this will be a big deal considering that most of the racing games I've played don't have much visual damage at all, including PC sims. And according to what Kaz has told us, mechanical damage will be in all car models.

You can say that GT5 really should just have 400 Premium cars like Forza 3 does, but you have to remember how Turn 10 got there: by farming out work to shops across the planet, including at least one from Viet Nam! And when F3 has the same flaws in car models from Forza 1, and more besides, I'm thinking this was a bad way to get another hundred or so new cars. Sorry Lucas, I guess this is more biased hating on Forza or something. Or maybe not.

We are getting what we're getting, like it or not. If the Standards really give you the dry heaves, I don't know what to tell you. Except that you could focus on how awesome the Premiums are, and then when you get the game, assuming you still do, you could trrryyyy the Standards and see what you think of them. Unless your hands start shaking badly, then I'd hasten back to the Premiums. My prescription for peace.

Edit: wow... Win7 is cool and all, but does it have some weird quirks with boards.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Hmmm...well Forza 3 has 500 modeled exteriors and interiors. They are not 1080p quality, but for 720p, they look dang good. I guess I would rather have 500 modeled interiors that look dang good than 200 interiors that look awesomesauce.

Then again, 500+200=GT+Forza, so I get to enjoy them all either way

 

[evilfoxhound]

Forza 3 cockpits range from average to very bad.

That's the price they pay for outsourcing.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Odd, my cockpits look great.

 

[evilfoxhound]

Odd, my cockpits look great.

I have higher standards.

 

[MadduckUK]

hmmm...well forza 3 has 500 modeled exteriors and interiors. they are not 1080p quality, but for 720p, they look dang good.

you dont know what you are talking about

 

[Bogie 19th]

you dont know what you are talking about

Cool.

I have higher standards.

Me too!

 

[MadduckUK]

use some more fancy words, tell us about the high defs

 

[Devedander]

Forza 3 cockpits range from average to very bad.

That's the price they pay for outsourcing.

GT5 took 6 years to get 20% of their cars completed. That's the price they pay for not outsourcing.

BTW I think it's interesting how we all seem to be fine with heavy application of LOD that GT constantly uses, yet highly detailed floor panels and carpet somehow good enough to justify only get 20% of the cars done?

Also keep in mind we are assuming all of them will look as good as what we have seen so far... It wasn't long ago that we "knew" all the cars would look like GT5P or better, so just like it's constantly brought up to reserve judgement on negative issues, a little restraint might be in line here as well...

I don't understand all these people that seem to think the only reason GT5 has 1000 cars is to compete with Forza.

I don't think people are saying it's the only reason, but it's probably a significant if not major one. But to say that hitting the 1000 car mark as a magic number isn't important or that keeping ahead of the competition aren't strongly motivating reasons would seem awfully shortsighted.

Basically GT has always been about huge car collections in general so that's ceratinly a driving force also, but honestly if Forza didn't have such a strong stable of features, I don't think we would have seen the rush and push from GT to maintain the lead...

If F3 had come out puttering with no interesting checkboxes for the marketers I think we would have seen GT5 a year ago, sans a lot of features we see now, with only a short premium car list and a promise of GT6 shortly to bring the rest of the crop up to the new standard.

 

[Organ-Donor]

Odd, my cockpits look great.

Some look alright but some not so good:


And some cockpit views are just wrong, the M5 has paddle shifters yet the driver uses a manual stick to shift? Of course I would love cockpit for every car but at least GT5 will have consistency in quality and accuracy for all views in premium cars.

 

[LaBounti]

I need whatever Bogie is smoking He's so cool it makes me smile.

Devedander, the standard cars are done. They have been done for years sitting on a HDD waiting to be revived after the canceled GT4HD.

I'll post one more time. GT5P had 70 cars in 2008, 140 in 2009 and 210 in 2010. They can do 70 cars a year. I do agree that Kaz went over board deciding for US to have less nice cars in favor of 400,000 polygon models.

Only 200+ of the cars on disc where outsourced, The FM2 cars were tweaked(lights,emblems and interiors but in game . but how many times will people say they modeled 400 cars? The FM2 cars(2007 with no interiors) in replays look terrible compared to the FM3 cars, The 2003 M3 has 15in wheels....

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Why did you quote an old post? That's usually something a troll would do.

...like coming into a thread to quote messages from literally weeks past? Right?

You spend a good deal of time in here trying to get everyone to agree that the Standard cars in GT5 are sucky old models. You hate for anyone to even mention the F-game. So lo and behold, you make a post discussing that "other" game, and how cool it is. I don't recall you saying how dreadful the other cars in race are, with drastically reduced detail, to the point that the cars sometime resemble plushies as much as the originals when you examine them. I'll peek at your post, and if you did, I'll edit in a correction, but I want to get this out of the way.

I have an issue with people mentioning it for no comparative purpose. People going out of their way to mention it, to bash it, just for the hell of it. Like you. Or fanboy trolling tripe like "resemble plushies". I recognize you have a very hard time looking at things in any way other than black and white (like any good troll), but a lot of us function with varying degrees of gray. My post about "how cool" FM3 is? Did you miss the parts where I said I still didn't quite gel with it? This selective reading of your's is a constant, also another troll quality.

See, I'm after a bit of consistency on your part. After going round and round about how the Standard cars are craptastic models from the old days when car models didn't even push 10K polys, and even trying to make it look like Kazunori was saying the Standard cars have 4K of polygons, I don't recall you ever griping about how Turn 10 short sheeted Forza 3 so the driver car could look as good as it does. At least from the outside.

T10 did take some shortcuts I'm not thrilled about. Outsourcing, as you so vehemently mention every possible chance, being one. I see the benefits, but I also see the drawbacks. Yeah, it means a fluctuation in quality between some models (the S2000 and the R32 being the easiest examples of problems, which I admit, definitely are problems). On the other hand, at least they're all multi-piece models that all deal with the features in the game on the same level.

You can say that it's obvious to you that the Standard cars do look that bad at all. But see, we were thinking how decent the Standards looked to us when we saw the trailer. Heck, I thought it was really neat! It took some of you guys pasting in stills and blowing them up and saying, "Look! This is oogly."

Oddly enough, I could tell immediately they were GT4 models. And besides, while I've even said that Standards won't be as noticeable during races... this is also about the features they miss out on. A list of which is getting longer and longer on the way to release, not shorter.

If you change everything related to GT5 in that post for things related to Forza, it would seem that the person you are describing is actually yourself. And the sad part is that I'm not lying. And a few members (the members that I consider smart and non-fanboyish, go figure) can prove me right. Can't take you long to guess who those members are. A clue:

Spoiler

those who you seem to get in an argument with everytime you speak with them.

Shock and awe!

I know that unless I love Forza as much as other games, I'm some kind of blind ninnypoo to you, but that's fine.

Again, more us vs. them rhetoric. We can only like one!

However, you might notice that there are far more people around here who think like I do than you.

That I won't argue. Although I fail to see what a majority has to do with anything.

And how many years have we been racing in Gran Turismo without one?

What a terrible argument. Gaming advances over time, just because something wasn't available in the beginning isn't a valid reason to not include it down the road.

 

[Devedander]

Of course I would love cockpit for every car but at least GT5 will have consistency in quality and accuracy*









*for all views in premium cars.

FTFY.

Weird how sometimes consistency across the board is really important and sometimes it's not... almost like it depends on which game you are talking about as to whether it is or not...

 

[Organ-Donor]

FTFY.

Weird how sometimes consistency across the board is really important and sometimes it's not... almost like it depends on which game you are talking about as to whether it is or not...

I'm not talking generally across the board, I'm speaking about a specific point (obviously standard/premium cars prove the inconsistency). We won't have cockpit views for standards and I know that and accept it, so I'm speaking specifically about the tier that WILL have cockpit view and how it will be consistent. Why should I talk about something that it won't apply to, standards lack cockpit view and that is obvious. Of course constancy between all cars would be nice for GT5, but its not, we get 2 tiers, I accepted it and moved on. Point is F3 has 1 tier of car, and within that tier the quality and accuracy varies significantly. GT5 premium tier will at least be consistent within itself and I imagine the same will be for standards.

 

[Tornado]

GT5 premium tier will at least be consistent within itself and I imagine the same will be for standards.

That hasn't been the case since GT3. And since they are using the same assets that GT4 was built on for the Standards, I think it is safe to assume that we are going to be looking at the same situation this time as well.
I agree that the quality will probably be pretty consistent for the Premiums, though.

 

[Organ-Donor]

That hasn't been the case since GT3. And since they are using the same assets that GT4 was built on for the Standards, I think it is safe to assume that we are going to be looking at the same situation this time as well.
I agree that the quality will probably be pretty consistent for the Premiums, though.

You may very well be right, with the unknown's about standards in GT5 we will see in November.

 

[Devedander]

I'm not talking generally across the board, I'm speaking about a specific point (obviously standard/premium cars prove the inconsistency). We won't have cockpit views for standards and I know that and accept it, so I'm speaking specifically about the tier that WILL have cockpit view and how it will be consistent. Why should I talk about something that it won't apply to, standards lack cockpit view and that is obvious. Of course constancy between all cars would be nice for GT5, but its not, we get 2 tiers, I accepted it and moved on. Point is F3 has 1 tier of car, and within that tier the quality and accuracy varies significantly. GT5 premium tier will at least be consistent within itself and I imagine the same will be for standards.

Yes the board might be premium cars, might be all cars, might be trucks only, the point is consistency of quality is really important everywhere, it doesn't work to just say "it's only important here in this subsection".

And I still point out that we haven't seen all the cockpits yet, it's quite possible what we have seen is a cream of the crop sort of deal.

 

[Organ-Donor]

Yes the board might be premium cars, might be all cars, might be trucks only, the point is consistency of quality is really important everywhere, it doesn't work to just say "it's only important here in this subsection".

This goes without saying though, I don't ignore issues just because I'm a GT fan. I know that quality and consistency is important across the whole game. GT5 will have a difference in quality and consistency. I was upset to find out about the premium/standard split, I have gotten over it but that doesn't mean I ignore it and sweep it under the rug. My point was about the quality of Premiums (more specifically regarding cockpit view) which is a specific tier being accurate and consistent compared to F3 cars, which all are the same tier and have an inconsistent level of quality and some deemed inaccurate.

And I still point out that we haven't seen all the cockpits yet, it's quite possible what we have seen is a cream of the crop sort of deal.

Well PD hasn't outsourced like Turn10 has so I highly doubt we will see a noticeable difference in quality for Premium cars. I could be wrong but it sounds to me like they have taken the Premiums to a ridiculous level and we have seen a wide variety of car types.

Edit: Sorry if that isn't clear, I'm on pain meds right now.

 

[JohnBM01]

I guess it's time for another sermon on this topic from the JohnBM01 ministry...

I guess what I am concerned most about between Standards and Premiums is about if we somehow just disregard the Standard cars like we've raced them before, and thus have no reason to race these cars and use these cars as any Premium. That's what I think this dislike over the Standards is like. You know... "we raced these (basically) remastered GT4 (and likely even Gran Turismo PSP) cars, so why do we need these cars when we have 200 Premium cars?

I'm starting to think that maybe PD could have remastered all the cars from GT4 (and those that werent in GT4) or Gran Turismo PSP and put them in GT5. Include them, but also add some newer cars. I don't think this is what PD would do because when you go from one console to another, and when you're a top-tier developer, you have to show progress and evolution in going from one console to another. So you make these Premium cars to showcase what the PS3 is capable of while also offering the finest items for gamers to use and utilize. I think a lot of people are under the impression that Standard cars aren't worth racing since there are much better machines to use in the game. Then if you feel that the Standards are going to be worthless in GT5, then how would you explain the "Special" cars in GT4? Were those Special cars (like the Caterham in GT4) just filler space in the GT4 lineup of cars? Could all the cars have been designed (even for the PS2) to be as raceable as any of the other 700+ cars?

You know what this is like in gaming? It's like people only caring about the more popular material while disregarding everything else. It's like in EA college sports games where smaller schools don't have anywhere as much attention to detail and appeal (or putting those efforts into them) as any of the major schools. Football schools like Sam Houston State or Weber State don't have anywhere near the attention to detail and appeal in NCAA Football games as Michigan or Florida. Basketball schools like Santa Clara or Manhattan College in a game have nowhere near the attention-to-detail in and appeal of places NCAA March Madness series games like North Carolina or UCLA. Many who just see Standard cars as wasted disc space basically treat them like the smaller schools in my analogy. There's no need for the Standards for most people because we've seen most of them and lack Premium quality. However, these are still cars you can own and race. So it's not like the Standard cars are completely pointless. What if I wanted to race and tune a Jaguar XJ220 (assuming we get it and assuming it's Standard) rather than race an Enzo Ferrari? Is the feel of racing an XJ220 not as tempting as using an Enzo or any other supercar just because I'm racing a Standard car?

I guess what I'm saying is... don't be bummed out over or afraid of Standard cars. At least you can still race that car, even if it isn't all nice and shiny and Premium. Would you rather have that option to race a specific car or race a specific car as long as it's Premium? I'm going to assume that many of the good cars we love from Gran Turismo 4 will be back in GT5 as Standard models (unless they get a Premium makeover). Saying this, I'd still prefer to buy a Mitsubishi 3000GT and tune the hell out of it and race it in the GT5 realm. I'd be disappointed that it isn't Premium (or could it?), but I don't care as long as I can buy and tune that car. I always see these as opportunities to own and use more cars rather than just care so much about Premium machines. Let's also assume the Standard race cars will be in the game. Let's assume the Toyota 88C-V (popularly referred to as the Minolta Toyota) and the Nissan R92CP return to GT5. Both cars are very fast. But since they may likely be standards, does that make them less fun to race against the Mazda 787B or the Peugeot 908 HDI FAP? Will a Standard Renault 5 Turbo rally car be less fun to race than the Premium Citroen C4 WRC?

The point is, you can still race and tune these cars even if they aren't Premium. You don't have to have just Premium cars to make Gran Turismo 5 great. You can still race these machines and enjoy them even if they don't have the Premium perks. Would you rather see some of these Standard cars return or not see Standards at all? Depends on you and your tastes. For the unconditional love of Gran Turismo racing, I'll race both Standards and Premiums unconditionally and with the love and adoration I've had for this series since first playing Gran Turismo in 1998 or so.

 

[Tenacious D]

I'm going to step around the pile a bit here...

What a terrible argument. Gaming advances over time, just because something wasn't available in the beginning isn't a valid reason to not include it down the road.

You're going to have to gripe at Kazunori and the team. They made the decision not to include blacked out interiors in the Standard cars, so no cockpit cam. Besides, if not having an interior view in a car is a deal breaker for someone, is that a "good" argument? Or just a Slip debate point?

Since you don't like me bringing up Forza, I likewise won't bring up any other racing game, as if no other game existed but Gran Turismo 5. You know the drill. No major changes can be made, as the game is almost ready to take the final master code to the platters. Sad, but true. We're getting what we're getting. If someone doesn't like it, they can either complain a lot in vain on a message board, get used to it and see if it's not that big a deal, or they can vote with their feet and walk away. But seeing as Gran Turismo is the only racing game in the universe, and hasn't had any cockpit views until Prologue, you might remember that no one suffered horribly from the omission previously. If they did, I have a well heeled mantra which is often used around here.

It's just a game.

And John, I really can't see someone absolutely, utterly and forever never touching a Standard car. Statistically speaking, 80% of the cars will be non-Premiums. And we know that Kaz did make some intriguing choices for the Prems, as well as a few that left us scratching our heads in a WTH moment. This means that there's a good chance that many of your fave rides will be in those Standard lots. I know for sure that a good many of mine will be, because I'm a pretty ravenous car collector in GT games, the only racing game that exists. Sorry, my humor...

If I was one of those who had glommed onto cockpit view like I did roof view, I'd have a choice to make. Seeing as the Standards are much like the cars in GT4, including the views, and I did well to race for years in that game, I'd see if I could school myself in another view in Prologue as pre-GT5 training. These cars are too valuable to me not to re-experience all over again with GT5's realistic physics. For those who shake their heads and walk away, I guess I'd say have fun with the Premiums. But that's going to leave you saying goodbye to a lot of old friends. I hope you guys don't miss them too much.

 

[Zero_angel]

I will use standards and premiums if one of my favorite cars is standard i will still use it because i like it also do you own the car or the car own you.

 

[JDMKING13]

Guys the game comes out in a month and we cant get over this standard and premium issue? Say what you wanna say I was arguing with many members around here (Slip,Deve etc) on the topic that standard cars would have cockpit view. When the nail hit the coffin I was heartbroke, standards cars would have no interior view. I love GT5P for its interior views, I play on a 55 inch so the view is amazing. It gives the gamer a more enjoyable experience IMO. I cant remember when GT5P came out I think 2008, how ever I still play it to this day. GT5P is nothing compared to GT5, I bet if we still had the option to play that demo with the stock and tunned 370Z many of us would be playing that on the regular. GT5 is going to be amazing, and even though I took a blow from the standard cars having no cockpit I am very satisfied about having a greater option to re master some of my favorite cars in GT4 with the new GT5 engine. I am also happy get to see great photographers create new unique photos making those standards cars look amazing and the Premiums looking Epic!. 1 more month guys!

 

[Zero_angel]

Guys the game comes out in a month and we cant get over this standard and premium issue? Say what you wanna say I was arguing with many members around here (Slip,Deve etc) on the topic that standard cars would have cockpit view. When the nail hit the coffin I was heartbroke, standards cars would have no interior view. I love GT5P for its interior views, I play on a 55 inch so the view is amazing. It gives the gamer a more enjoyable experience IMO. I cant remember when GT5P came out I think 2008, how ever I still play it to this day. GT5P is nothing compared to GT5, I bet if we still had the option to play that demo with the stock and tunned 370Z many of us would be playing that on the regular. GT5 is going to be amazing, and even though I took a blow from the standard cars having no cockpit I am very satisfied about having a greater option to re master some of my favorite cars in GT4 with the new GT5 engine. I am also happy get to see great photographers create new unique photos making those standards cars look amazing and the Premiums looking Epic!. 1 more month guys!

Well said

 

[Tenacious D]

Truth.

Strangely, as much as I love Prologue, I keep racing the snot out of GT4. Prologue is a much better game, and I keep offering it to myself as a dessert after a good GT4 session. But darn, if there's not so much more to do and play with in GT4! There's always one more track and car I'd like to try, and next thing I know, I have to go somewhere or to bed.

I can hardly wait to lose sleep with those Standard cars roaring down Madrid or the 'Ring...

 

[SlipZtrEm]

(EDIT) - Not feeding trolls anymore.

Guys the game comes out in a month and we cant get over this standard and premium issue? Say what you wanna say I was arguing with many members around here (Slip,Deve etc) on the topic that standard cars would have cockpit view. When the nail hit the coffin I was heartbroke, standards cars would have no interior view. I love GT5P for its interior views, I play on a 55 inch so the view is amazing. It gives the gamer a more enjoyable experience IMO. I cant remember when GT5P came out I think 2008, how ever I still play it to this day. GT5P is nothing compared to GT5, I bet if we still had the option to play that demo with the stock and tunned 370Z many of us would be playing that on the regular. GT5 is going to be amazing, and even though I took a blow from the standard cars having no cockpit I am very satisfied about having a greater option to re master some of my favorite cars in GT4 with the new GT5 engine. I am also happy get to see great photographers create new unique photos making those standards cars look amazing and the Premiums looking Epic!. 1 more month guys!

Hey, think of it this way... you're not the guy who said he'd bet his house on the cockpit issue .

As for the photography aspect... come join us, it's a good bunch

 

[Devedander]

Well PD hasn't outsourced like Turn10 has so I highly doubt we will see a noticeable difference in quality for Premium cars. I could be wrong but it sounds to me like they have taken the Premiums to a ridiculous level and we have seen a wide variety of car types.

I don't think they outsourced GT4 modeling either but there were definitely some uglies in the bunch. I would be pretty surprised if they weren't all equally good also, but then I have been surprised quite a few times now...

I think a lot of people are under the impression that Standard cars aren't worth racing since there are much better machines to use in the game.

I think your assumption is incorrect and those who feel that way are a vast minority.

Then if you feel that the Standards are going to be worthless in GT5

And this is an extension based on your previous assumption which is a bit of a slippery slope.

You know what this is like in gaming? It's like people only caring about the more popular material while disregarding everything else. It's like in EA college sports games where smaller schools don't have anywhere as much attention to detail and appeal (or putting those efforts into them) as any of the major schools.

Actually it's pretty significantly different... plenty of less interesting cars have gotten the premium treatment.

Saying this, I'd still prefer to buy a Mitsubishi 3000GT and tune the hell out of it and race it in the GT5 realm.

We are still not entirely sure if even the tuning will be available to the same extents for standards, especially things that require externally visible changes.

The point is, you can still race and tune these cars even if they aren't Premium.

But you can't enjoy the immersive cockpit view (which GT5P did a lot to promote) and you can't enjoy the thrill of reduced visibility from weather.

It cuts both ways... it's not like standards are worthless and you can still do a lot with them yes, but they are also missing a lot already and that's before we find out for sure everything they're missing.

Again I point out that it seems the general feeling about GT5 has gone from "will be the absolute best and creme de la creme" to "you shouldn't be dissapointed because it's not that bad".

 

[Organ-Donor]

I don't think they outsourced GT4 modeling either but there were definitely some uglies in the bunch. I would be pretty surprised if they weren't all equally good also, but then I have been surprised quite a few times now...

I'm no graphic designer but I assume technology has come a long way since GT4.

But you can't enjoy the immersive cockpit view (which GT5P did a lot to promote) and you can't enjoy the thrill of reduced visibility from weather.

That's assuming that cockpit view is your preferred view. It won't effect bumper cam, hood, or chase cam users. Yes if you need to see the rain on the windshield and the wipers moving you will need a premium. This still doesn't mean you can't experience weather and the effects of rain on the physics when in standard cars.

Again I point out that it seems the general feeling about GT5 has gone from "will be the absolute best and creme de la creme" to "you shouldn't be dissapointed because it's not that bad".

I keep seeing you state how the general feeling about GT5 from people has gone from 'the best' to 'not that bad', but from what I gather most of the people have come to terms with standard cars and still feel GT5 as a whole will be amazing and one of the best driving games. You seem to be one of the few that resemble a dark rain cloud on the issue or per sway others to feel the same as you by enforcing your "logic" on them. I still feel GT5 will be the best creme de la creme, standard cars included. GT5 will offer so much more than just 2 tiers of cars.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

I keep seeing you state how the general feeling about GT5 from people has gone from 'the best' to 'not that bad', but from what I gather most of the people have come to terms with standard cars and still feel GT5 as a whole will be amazing and one of the best driving games. You seem to be one of the few that resemble a dark rain cloud on the issue or per sway others to feel the same as you by enforcing your "logic" on them. I still feel GT5 will be the best creme de la creme, standard cars included. GT5 will offer so much more than just 2 tiers of cars.

Yes you are quiet right because the majority still believe GT5 will be the best console racing game. Those who feel its "not to bad" are certainly the minority.

The bottom line for me is GT5 still offers far more than any other console racing game and many of the included features happen to be the most requested for FM3.

Like I said previously you can still use the standard cars on a track that you created, race online, weather etc. Also not everyone uses the cockpit view and in my opinion I reckon the bumper cam is most popular.

The fact remains is no other console racing game has track creator, dynamic weather, 16 online, day/night transitions. Sure some games have had some of these features but not all of them in the same game. Actually thinking about it I cannot think of any Xbox 360 racing game that has more than 12 online. The mistake Devalander makes is he forgets about all of these features on GT5. These features is why many will think GT5 is the best console racing game.

Surely isn't it about time we stop debating this. As GT5 is coming very soon its about time we just accepted that 800 cars will be standard without cockpit view. Now if you don't like this you either only use premium cars or don't buy GT5. For me personally I cannot contain my excitement and the night before GT5 is released will be simliar to xmas eve as a child.