Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[Devedander]

I think some are misreading what he is trying to say. What gtracedriver is saying is GT5 has taken longer to develop than say GT2,3,4 because they threw away the old code and wanted to develop from scratch. The only other GT game that has taken this long is GT1 because again this had to be developed from scratch. Now Kaz has stated that GT6 won't take aslong as GT5 because it will use the assets from GT5, whether these assets can be called a game engine I don't know.

No doubt though that some are so arrogant on this thread that they believe they know more than Kazunori.

Actually the main issue is he said that you can't simultaneoulsy work on multipel areas of the game at once which is patently untrue... he keeps giving reasons that in clude generally techie words but never really say anything (kind of like a business buzzword generator).

I even went so far as to provide a very simiplified example of how what he said doesn't make sense then asked for an equally detailed resposne with some example of how what he was saying is possible.

Rather than answer, he danced around the point a lot, gave a few examples that don't actually back up his statements but might seem reasonable if you only have a tertiary understanding of the subject.

Basically he keeps saying things that just don't make sense or aren't true (even the examples he gave show a lack of understanding as they aren't true and are pretty much the challenges every game development faces and overcomes just fine).


I have no doubt he is talking about stuff he doesn't understand as if he does. And I don't buy the language barrier either... he expresses himkself just fine, he just says stuff that doesn't make sense even in general let alone in detail.

We have a lot of conflicted opinions around here and as long as they are reasonably educated, it's a good debate. But when someone comes in and start throwing around FUD it just dirties the waters and turns it from a good debate into a frustrating argument.

 

[RedSuinit]

We have a lot of conflicted opinions around here and as long as they are reasonably educated, it's a good debate. But when someone comes in and start throwing around FUD it just dirties the waters and turns it from a good debate into a frustrating argument.

Then at that point wouldn't it make sense to drop it? Let the person who is throwing around FUD think he won just so that the "frustrating argument" will stop?

 

[Griffith500]

Just thought I'd come back to this:

I'll take this time to point out that I'm very curious how the game won't be a model of slow-down and frame-rate stuttering: GT5P's cars are apparently half the poly count, and having four nearby on track when I'm driving shows some noticeable lag.

If the models truly are double the detail (triangles-wise) of GT5, then it's obviously "wasted". GT5 suffers slowdown as it is, when there are lots of cars around. I'm not saying it can't be optimised, but GT5 is going to be full of other stuff that wasn't in GT5 (e.g. day / night etc.).

So: why the extra detail?
I reckon: Photo mode. (Just like Forza 3 did - I have no complaints with this sort of method - as long as we don't get "planar" wheels still in the higher levels of detail...)

In the race, the car models will be displayed at a specific Level of Detail (i.e. lower than max) and obviously can be dynamically shifted by the engine for best performance. This means that the cars someway in front of you probably have few more polygons than those cars from GT4. Those in the far distance, probably much less. This kind of discrete LoD switching is already evident in GT5.

Additionally, the GT4 models are surely going to be slightly upscaled (in terms of numbers of polygons - i.e. via subdivision / smoothing - hardware tesselation?) to smooth bits out anyway; textures will then need to be re-"applied", and if the originals are kicking about, they can be used instead of the heavily compressed ones - this will kick-start the premiumification of the classic / standard cars, which, no-doubt, will be drip-fed to us over the coming years.

16 standard cars, no problem. 16 premium cars, also ought to be no problem (look at GT5) - depending on extra functionality in AI, day / night, weather? etc.

 

[Devedander]

Then at that point wouldn't it make sense to drop it? Let the person who is throwing around FUD think he won just so that the "frustrating argument" will stop?

It would except that experience says that's not the end of it... it's not just a drive by experience, if you don't address it it keeps happening and the FUD gets taken as truth by the many others who also don't know (but at least don't talk like they do). The result is a big mess of people who are all frustrating to converse with beause you can't be sure what they know or where tehy get their misconceptions and how to handle there comments then...

It's kind of like hold em... a shark will eat the fish, but if you aren't careful and get a table of fish, the fish will eat the shark... gotta keep pruning the fish ya know?

So: why the extra detail?
I reckon: Photo mode. (Just like Forza 3 did - I have no complaints with this sort of method - as long as we don't get "planar" wheels still in the higher levels of detail...)

I wonder if the members would pan such a move as hard as they did when Forza pulled it off?

Additionally, the GT4 models are surely going to be slightly upscaled (in terms of numbers of polygons - i.e. via subdivision / smoothing - hardware tesselation?) to smooth bits out anyway; textures will then need to be re-"applied", and if the originals are kicking about, they can be used instead of the heavily compressed ones

That's an assumption... possible but so far not really evidenced so far as I have seen.

This means that the cars someway in front of you probably have few more polygons than those cars from GT4. Those in the far distance, probably much less. This kind of discrete LoD switching is already evident in GT5.

While LoD and anistropy are almost certainly going to be used, they are a gamble... they rely on an average amount of assets being in certain ranges to pull off their resource saving magic. If that's all that's holding your framerate, you are bound to run into problems when a lot of stuff happens close at the same time (think pileup). You then have little or no way to apply LoD and anistropic filtering as it's all up close and personal.

this will kick-start the premiumification of the classic / standard cars, which, no-doubt, will be drip-fed to us over the coming years.

Thats definitely an assumption and I think kind of unlikely... KY has said he was against DLC before and although anything can change, I really think they are more likely to just concentrate on GT6 rather than keep dribbling stuff into GT5.

 

[Devedander]

Sorry DP

 

[Akira AC]

This thread has come into a dead end point,too much about technical and less about the topic in hand(Your thoughts about"standard" vs "premium") so I dunno know this thread died like ages ago but people still replying and giving arguments about stuff that may or may not know,besides of that everyone wants to be right but at the end no one is right because nothing definite has been told,you people should stop making no sense or making a thread call GT5 technical stuff or something.

DevedanderI wonder if the members would pan such a move as hard as they did when Forza pulled it off?

about that he is complete right,all the cars in Forza games and Gran Turismo games looks better in photomode because they cant load more details and give another memory administration,the reason why the models are not detail the whole racing time is to save memory for another functions like gravity and tire wearing out(which BTW no game has done,maybe the upcoming F1 racing game),in the case of games like GT they keep more of the detail while racing,fist Forza looks gorgeous in racing because it didn't have photo mode and the detail of the models where there,in the case of Forza 3 they use the same FM2 models in racing and then switch quality during photomode(that is why FM3 take a bit of time to load while in game photomode,and takes some time while loads the exhibition cars)but what is impressive for a game like GT5
is that in the videos that have been shown(premiums) so far the quality seems to be superior than the whole competition because we have seem in game gameplay and the whole details are there,they are no hidden,so the memory administration is really good for keeping all the details,besides of that maybe we will look standard with same quality of in race FM3 models,since the in race models looks like photomode models they are showing better quality that some FM3 and FM2 models,you can check that and is already been check by several screenshots.

people just wait until gamescom or some standard car beta and then judge,besides wait is the base for the whole argument ,lets see ........... nothing!

 

[Captain Roh]

This thread has come into a dead end point

I was thinking the exact same thing. How are people still talking in circles about the same stuff? It baffles me.

Most threads in here go way off topic now days, not enough news and too many people with no time to play GT. Turn on your playstations!! Enjoy the drive 👍

 

[Dapper]

Most threads in here go way off topic now days, not enough news and too many people with no time to play GT. Turn on your playstations!! Enjoy the drive 👍

👍 My first WRS this week, and I like it. It is friendly competition that is always changing. Also, there are still great races going on all over the world, you just have to know where to be and when to be there.

All the while I have used cockpit view for maybe 2 HSR races, and a couple replays over the last 2 years

 

[gtracedriver]

Actually the main issue is he said that you can't simultaneoulsy work on multipel areas of the game at once which is patently untrue... he keeps giving reasons that in clude generally techie words but never really say anything (kind of like a business buzzword generator).

I even went so far as to provide a very simiplified example of how what he said doesn't make sense then asked for an equally detailed resposne with some example of how what he was saying is possible.

Rather than answer, he danced around the point a lot, gave a few examples that don't actually back up his statements but might seem reasonable if you only have a tertiary understanding of the subject.

Basically he keeps saying things that just don't make sense or aren't true (even the examples he gave show a lack of understanding as they aren't true and are pretty much the challenges every game development faces and overcomes just fine).


I have no doubt he is talking about stuff he doesn't understand as if he does. And I don't buy the language barrier either... he expresses himkself just fine, he just says stuff that doesn't make sense even in general let alone in detail.

We have a lot of conflicted opinions around here and as long as they are reasonably educated, it's a good debate. But when someone comes in and start throwing around FUD it just dirties the waters and turns it from a good debate into a frustrating argument.

I think I have given enough reason if you are not convinced, that really does not bothers me

Although I will say this, all the games have some sort game engine in house or they use other engine which handles everything and it keep getting better with future release. Obviously PS3 architecture is different from PS2 they have to start everything from scratch. As it can handle superior gfx, physics, more AI drivers and so on.. There is a certain limit to what it can do and if you are going to add more features it is important that it does not effect other parts of the game. Like GT5 for the first time has damage, smoke effects, day/night cycle so obviously they had to do a lot of things for a brand new console and it takes time.

In this interview Kaz mention that the game keep evolving and they try to do as much they can. He also says here that GT5 is expected in 2010 and it took them so much time so they had to release GT5P. Older video but I was searching for some interview and found this

 

[Nero9]

How are people still talking in circles about the same stuff? It baffles me.

Most threads in here go way off topic now days, not enough news and too many people with no time to play GT.

I said the same thing a few pages back, but still, still, let's have something to argue about!!!

 

[dan0h]

Face-tracking using the PS Eye works on the 200 cars with cockpits and lets you look around...

*Waits patiently for people saying that it doesnt clears anything and that standard cars dont have interior view, cockpit view, BUT THEY HAVE DASH VIEWWW HURRRRR....

Finally the confirmation.

That is weak Kaz, very weak - you've let the side down, and you've let yourself down.

FM3 FTW, with new version for next year. That's my kind of development time scale.

 

[Custer85]

They should have made headtracking for standard cars in bumperview asmell.

 

[gtracedriver]

Actually that does not mean anything. If head tracking is only for looking inside the premium cars then I guess it is not very important feature. Obviously it will not be there in standard cars because the interiors are not modeled however some form of cockpit view is not yet ruled out

 

[Luminis]

Finally the confirmation.

That is weak Kaz, very weak - you've let the side down, and you've let yourself down.

FM3 FTW, with new version for next year. That's my kind of development time scale.

And here we go again with FM vs. GT bashing...

You know, I like Forza, but we know nothing about the next Forza game. And while I think it's good that they don't take forever to create their games, a little more time would really help the franchise to get rid a lot of some of its problems for good.

 

[Captain Roh]

👍 My first WRS this week, and I like it. It is friendly competition that is always changing. Also, there are still great races going on all over the world, you just have to know where to be and when to be there.

All the while I have used cockpit view for maybe 2 HSR races, and a couple replays over the last 2 years

Yeah thats the spirit! 👍 Welcome to the WRS.

You're right about it being friendly, its all about improving yourself not the competition. The way i see it the other people are only there to guage your progression. And have the loccasional laugh with Theres some serious competitors in D1 though so err,.. good luck

Oh and dude, seriously!? One or two times in cockpit view? Is bumper cam faster, heck yeah it is! but wheres the soul man? Show PD some love and get your cockpit on!

 

[Luminis]

*Waits patiently for people saying that it doesnt clears anything and that standard cars dont have interior view, cockpit view, BUT THEY HAVE DASH VIEWWW HURRRRR....

however some form of cockpit view is not yet ruled out

chepu, you're the man 👍
Didn't take that much patience though

 

[SlipZtrEm]

If the models truly are double the detail (triangles-wise) of GT5, then it's obviously "wasted". GT5 suffers slowdown as it is, when there are lots of cars around. I'm not saying it can't be optimised, but GT5 is going to be full of other stuff that wasn't in GT5 (e.g. day / night etc.).

Finally, someone else acknowledges the slowdown. I'm beginning to think the 200k poly number that's tossed around for Prologue will still apply to the full game, because even with LoD and things like that, running into 4 or 5 cars nearby will chug the system along if the models are up to the 500k number we hear so much about. I like to think that 500k number includes all the interior details as well, which are shown at a lower LoD when not in cockpit view. And maybe the full-fat 500k poly models will be for Photomode, and/or have been used for the promotional videos? It's all guess-work, but yeah, considering how much more is supposed to be going on in a race in the full game, it's a bit worrying Prologue already has framerate issues.

this will kick-start the premiumification of the classic / standard cars, which, no-doubt, will be drip-fed to us over the coming years.

From my limited knowledge of modeling, I don't really think so. It'd probably be quicker and more efficient to just start from scratch when creating a Premium model of a car that's already available as a Standard. They're so different in their makeup... or at least that's how I see it.

I wonder if the members would pan such a move as hard as they did when Forza pulled it off?

"It's such a brilliant, unique approach to giving us all the detail we want when we need it, and giving us a fast-paced game the rest of the time. Another PD innovation!"

we will look standard with same quality of in race FM3 models,since the in race models looks like photomode models they are showing better quality that some FM3 and FM2 models,you can check that and is already been check by several screenshots.

👍 My first WRS this week, and I like it. It is friendly competition that is always changing. Also, there are still great races going on all over the world, you just have to know where to be and when to be there.

All the while I have used cockpit view for maybe 2 HSR races, and a couple replays over the last 2 years

I just got into the registry, so I'm gonna have to swing on in too. Div2B, it's amazing how much time you lose with a DS3 .

I only use cockpit when I'm racing solo. In online races I use bumper cam just so I have a better idea of where other cars are when they're near me to avoid any possible bumps.

 

[gtracedriver]

chepu, you're the man 👍
Didn't take that much patience though

well I know playstationuniversity.com said and now the OPM about the Head-tracking on premium cars inside as cockpit view but I am just guessing they do not have any new info and interpreting the same message as "no interior camera views" as cockpit view

 

[RedSuinit]

Finally, someone else acknowledges the slowdown. I'm beginning to think the 200k poly number that's tossed around for Prologue will still apply to the full game, because even with LoD and things like that, running into 4 or 5 cars nearby will chug the system along if the models are up to the 500k number we hear so much about. I like to think that 500k number includes all the interior details as well, which are shown at a lower LoD when not in cockpit view. And maybe the full-fat 500k poly models will be for Photomode, and/or have been used for the promotional videos? It's all guess-work, but yeah, considering how much more is supposed to be going on in a race in the full game, it's a bit worrying Prologue already has framerate issues.

Hmm, I have only had frame-rate issues with prologue online. We also don't know how much memory the lighting engine and other effects took up in prologue. I am sure there are places that aren't optimized very well in prologue, or perhaps even prologue doesn't do a good job of taking advantage of the PS3's assets. I can't wait to find out though, NOVEMBER 2ND BABY!

From my limited knowledge of modeling, I don't really think so. It'd probably be quicker and more efficient to just start from scratch when creating a Premium model of a car that's already available as a Standard. They're so different in their makeup... or at least that's how I see it.

Agreed

"It's such a brilliant, unique approach to giving us all the detail we want when we need it, and giving us a fast-paced game the rest of the time. Another PD innovation!"

Is that sarcasm?

I just got into the registry, so I'm gonna have to swing on in too. Div2B, it's amazing how much time you lose with a DS3 .

Indeed. It's amazing how much time you can gain going from a Driving Force wheel to a Driving Force Pro.

I only use cockpit when I'm racing solo. In online races I use bumper cam just so I have a better idea of where other cars are when they're near me to avoid any possible bumps.

I never use cockpit view. It limits my sight too much, plus I am way faster in bumper cam.

 

[eSZee]

Finally the confirmation.

That is weak Kaz, very weak - you've let the side down, and you've let yourself down.

FM3 FTW, with new version for next year. That's my kind of development time scale.

What confirmation? You need to check your sources.

 

[Nero9]

What confirmation? You need to check your sources.

Here we go again...

 

[ZoidFile]

I never use cockpit view. It limits my sight too much, plus I am way faster in bumper cam.

It would be nice to have a "forced cockpit view" option for the online mode.

 

[Maxitsu]

i still hope on cockpit views for the standards.

But i realize i have to change my racing view.

I should use " bonnet view", but GT does't have that view.
Bumper car is't my thing, also to low on the ground. Chase view: can't drive that way, it don't give a good sense of speed and realism.

So, i have to use the Roof camara. Like i did in GT4. But i have some problems whit this view. Whit some cars you only have 'roof' that fills the screen. Like a Mini Cooper or a Lancer Evo. Or when you drive A Ford Focus your screen is divided in two by a antenna.

But my biggest problem in GT5P whit car-views outside the car especially the roof cam, is the sound of the wind. Its so loud you can''t hear the engine. i know its realistic, if you put a camara on the roof of the car you have alot of wind. But that way it feels like your sitting on the car instead of driving it.

its so sad.. still hoping on 800 cars whit cocpits

 

[MagpieRacer]

Im not fussed about standard and premium, I use the hood/roof cam so premium and standard makes no difference to my view of the car.

 

[Dapper]

It would be nice to have a "forced cockpit view" option for the online mode.

Options are great, the more the better. But what about guys with little TV's?
Spec racing happens all the time on GT5P, no view is usually mentioned, but it is all done on the good old honor system.

Also, some of the fastest guys in the world use DFGT. And there are people out there who are better than most wheel users while using a controller.

 

[kingcars]

Finally, someone else acknowledges the slowdown. I'm beginning to think the 200k poly number that's tossed around for Prologue will still apply to the full game, because even with LoD and things like that, running into 4 or 5 cars nearby will chug the system along if the models are up to the 500k number we hear so much about. I like to think that 500k number includes all the interior details as well, which are shown at a lower LoD when not in cockpit view. And maybe the full-fat 500k poly models will be for Photomode, and/or have been used for the promotional videos? It's all guess-work, but yeah, considering how much more is supposed to be going on in a race in the full game, it's a bit worrying Prologue already has framerate issues.

I've honestly never had any serious framerate issues in GT5P, and I play full races on HSR all the time. I was actually playing the other day and was fighting for 3rd in a group of 7-8 cars and there were never any framerate issues, even during the replay. Strange. I have had VERY rare framerate issues, not nothing that ever caused concern. But even if there were problems in GT5P, I'm very confident that it has been sorted out with graphics engine optimizations over the past couple of years. Those are the kinds of things that are CONSTANTLY worked on up until the final hours before it goes gold. Not to mention that it might not have been the poly counts causing the slowdowns you've noticed.

I only use cockpit when I'm racing solo. In online races I use bumper cam just so I have a better idea of where other cars are when they're near me to avoid any possible bumps.

Full cockpit view 24/7 for me. I never use any other view; I prefer the full experience, even online. Lots of people like to switch to sequential transmissions too, but I stick to the good ol' clutch pedal setup. It's way more fun to win when you heel-toe into every turn and row through the gears. I just had an awesome race the other night in LFS where me and a guy battled for the lead for several laps, all while I was in cockpit view, heel-toe downshifting, etc etc...and it was amazing. I snagged a decent enough lead on the final lap to seal the win. Pics from the replay (me in the 17):

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v173/kingcars/LFS Racing/

Indeed. It's amazing how much time you can gain going from a Driving Force wheel to a Driving Force Pro.

Try going from a DFP to a G25 like I did! In one specific instance, when I first started playing LFS online, there was a track/car combo I would run a lot and I was typically one of the faster drivers at that combo, but there was one chicane that I couldn't take at full throttle and would cost me time. People with similar setups had no problem, and for the life of me I couldn't figure it out. I got the G25 and it was never a problem again.

 

[Organ-Donor]

Finally the confirmation.

That is weak Kaz, very weak - you've let the side down, and you've let yourself down.

FM3 FTW, with new version for next year. That's my kind of development time scale.

Yea, considering FM3 wasn't really a step up from FM2, and in certian areas is a step backwards. But I'm sure thats what Microsoft loves, people that are willing to throw another $60 for basically an expansion pack. In addition to all the things that could of been smoothed out and bugs fixed with additional development time. Thats your choice, but for me I liked getting as much packed into 1 single game as possible for one $60 pricetag. The ammount of content that is packed into GT5 is damn impressive compared to alot of other watered down games at the same price. As far as the cockpit view for only 200 cars, yes this is very disapointing as I drive cockpit view, but when compared to the level of detail and overall look in the FM3 cockpit, it's easlily understandable why they have an inside view in all their cars.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Wow, a Forza vs GT debate? This is a completely new direction for this thread so far unseen!

 

[Akira AC]

Sorry for being factual about your all beloved Forza,but now being critical about it seems to be ban in this whole argument,since FM is target for comparisons(and since everyone seems to think like Forza and Gran Turismo are the same thing with different publishers,sorry that is a fact not an opinion)and it is clearly that both are different game within the same gender(racing games)but this thread has also become target for criticism of both Forza and Gran Turismo and now,that all criticism about GT has been told the whole criticism about Forza seems to be ban,no ironies,no opinions is just a simple fact.

I tell to everyone keep this thread on topic and stop the criticism about other topics that don't concern into it,if you want to make criticism about it make it in other thread.

(sorry about retaking the whole issue but it seems like we will fall again into it,no offence to anyone)

Edit: my example there was to show a point,not comparing,read the context

 

[Organ-Donor]

Wow, a Forza vs GT debate? This is a completely new direction for this thread so far unseen!

The guy came out of left field with a FM3 comment, so I replied to it.