Zeta News 2.0: New VF Commodore and Chevrolet SS

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Is there any evidence that this version of the Tremec is only rated to 430 ft/lbs? If so, that's a big oversight.

As we've learned (well, some of us) from the GT-R issue... you make an affordable performance car, and the first thing people will do is thrash the life out of it, with no respect for break-in or warm-up and with no mechanical sympathy at all.

By the way... by the time Nissan admitted the problem? The standing number of failures was less than twenty. Many of which admitted to drag-racing, including the idiot who started the whole brouhaha.

I'm not coming off the fence on this one, yet. I'm still holding out on the possibility of epic hoonery causing these failures. Hey... it happens to everyone. Except now everyone and their brain-dead-brother is blogging about it... possibly blowing it out of proportion.
 
Info to support my claims

Looking around for more information about the Tremec TR-6060 tranny, I came across a GM link with info about the different types of tremecs. Basically the tremec in the Camaro is only rated for 430 lb -ft. of torque. All along I assumed it was 600 lb ft. according to the Camaro5 wiki.

I know its a cost cutting measure, but leaving only a 10 lb ft. torque difference in the specifications?

Gm Link - http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en..._MG9_M10_n.doc

Low maintenance
The TR6060 6-speed uses Texaco ATF Type III 1863 fluid and is certified "fill-for-life," requiring no fluid changes. The clutch is activated hydraulically, which automatically compensates for clutch disc wear, eliminating manual adjustments (except for the ZR1 which uses a traditional clutch). The Tremec TR6060 six-speed has evolved from a design that aimed to require virtually no maintenance in all but the most severe conditions.

Overview
Both the standard Corvette and the high-performance Z06 use the TR6060 designated as MM6, which is validated to 500 lb-ft of torque, while the TR6060 with the Z51 option features higher ratios and is designated as MZ6. It is validated to 430 lb-ft of torque. The ultra high performance ZR1 uses the TR6060 designated as the MH3, which is validated to 650 lb-ft of torque. The CTSv uses the MG9 version of the TR6060 validated to 560 lb-ft of torque. The Camaro uses the M10 gear set validated to 430 lb-ft
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Full post here
 
mustangGT90210
Bad batch my ass. The problems here are with 2010 SS 6M Camaros. Those have 420 lbs/ft of torque. The TR6060 in them is only certified to 430 lbs/ft. It is internally weaker than the more hi-po TR6060s in the Viper/Vette/GT500. Just like how there was a World-Class and Non World-Class T5 transmission. The Camaro trans is the "Non World-Class" TR6060.
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Thanks for bringing this info to cold hearted factual presentation. HSVs and Holdens have never had such a problem, could they be using a stronger version of the gearbox? I just found it strange that the Camaro, using all the same/similar running gear almost as an HSV would get these problems.:dunce: GM made a mistake here, I hope they fix it swiftly and easily.

mustangGT90210
By that reckoning, ok, they had a bad batch, whatever, we'll let them slide, things happen. Now, I know for a fact that Ford(FRPP - Ford Racing Performance Parts) sells a CAI and exhaust/cams/other performance mods that won't void the warranty. Hell, they sell a Whipple Supercharger (a Twin Screw I wanna say), that, when installed by them, you keep your warranty, although it's still slightly reduced in length and mileage. Going off that, if GM offers even anything like that, and I do not know if they do, then those transmissions are going to break with just a CAI, possibly last long enough to get exhaust on it. Then you're over your 430 lbs/ft rating. Then what?


Also, being factory cars, it's possible for them to not all have the same output. Slight variances, if you will. I'd bank that there's some SS's puttin' out 430 lbs/ft from the factory, which is right on the limit of what the trans will hold.

(This is not a bash GM post)
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Funny, because Ford Australia auto gearboxes supposedly can't take much more than the standard output either in XR6 Turbos, XR8s, GTs and F6s. Additionally, Walkinshaw Performance take the HSV, with all the same/similar Camaro running gear, supercharge it to some 470kw, and still offer a factory backed 1 year warranty in Australia.


mustangGT90210
Info to support my claims

Full post here
Click to expand...

Yep, GM should fix this ASAP. Still seems wierd though with all the modified Camaros already coming out. And what about the Pontiac GXP while we're at it?
 
I'm sure there is some sort of safety factor in there. Everything in engineering uses some sort of safety factor to ensure nothing goes wrong. Even in airplanes, where weight is essential to minimize, they use a factor of safety of about 1.5, which means that everything can withstand loads 50% stronger than what they are rated at. A transmission probably has an even higher FS to avoid excessive warranty claims. Probably not as high as bridges though, which I hear can have a FS of over 60...
 
Sorry to bring this up...


Joey D
And it seems like GM wants to continue pushing it's un-American ways by trying to make the Caprice a police cruiser.
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What's un-American about GM wanting to produce the best police vehicle possible for our hard working men and women in "blue?" I think it makes perfect sense, given the massive gap in the market right now. But, to go on what you're talking about...


Joey D
So basically they are going to take an Australian sourced car, that will probably be built in Canada and sell it to American police departments. So not only are federal tax dollars helping fuel the Australian and Canadian economies through the building of these cars, but now state and local tax dollars will be too.
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Actually, production will remain in Melbourne, building cars they would have been contracted to build anyway (ie, the G8). As I said before, the countries themselves produced their own stimulus packages for GM as well, so consequently, they "owe them" as well. Those who are working in Canada and Australia are no-less deserving of the jobs than we are, methinks, so I don't blame the decision makers.

Also:

Should GM have decided to produce the cars in North America, they would have needed to retool a factory entirely to produce the cars. That's time and money that would likely not be a wise investment, given the money that they need right now.
 
YSSMAN
What's un-American about GM wanting to produce the best police vehicle possible for our hard working men and women in "blue?" I think it makes perfect sense, given the massive gap in the market right now. But, to go on what you're talking about...
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We have no idea whether this would be the best vehicle for them though over say a Charger or even better the Carbon Motor's E7.

http://www.carbonmotors.com/

YSSMAN
Actually, production will remain in Melbourne, building cars they would have been contracted to build anyway (ie, the G8). As I said before, the countries themselves produced their own stimulus packages for GM as well, so consequently, they "owe them" as well. Those who are working in Canada and Australia are no-less deserving of the jobs than we are, methinks, so I don't blame the decision makers.
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Yes countries did produce their own stimulus for GM, however GM is keeping job in those countries...unlike America where they are continue to outsource them. We gave them money to keep jobs here, not take them away.
 
YSSMAN
Sorry to bring this up...




What's un-American about GM wanting to produce the best police vehicle possible for our hard working men and women in "blue?" I think it makes perfect sense, given the massive gap in the market right now. But, to go on what you're talking about...




Actually, production will remain in Melbourne, building cars they would have been contracted to build anyway (ie, the G8). As I said before, the countries themselves produced their own stimulus packages for GM as well, so consequently, they "owe them" as well. Those who are working in Canada and Australia are no-less deserving of the jobs than we are, methinks, so I don't blame the decision makers.

Also:

Should GM have decided to produce the cars in North America, they would have needed to retool a factory entirely to produce the cars. That's time and money that would likely not be a wise investment, given the money that they need right now.
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While I agree somewhat, isn't there some sort of requirement for some government agencies that a car or component must be built in America? Particularly when it comes to Federal.

Well, okay, I know the MAJORITY of cars belong to municipalities, but, still...
 
Paulie
Except Pontiac died so it's either this or miss out on one of Pontiac's actually good offerings, not to mention the HUGE promise in the export program made to Holden. Holden would have lost a lot of money if they didn't carry the Commodore/Caprice to Chevy. As I said, the Chevy should get all the Commodore's new features, so it will be faster, more efficient and from Pontiac grille to Chev grille look different enough too. (Unless they use the long wheelbase Holden Caprice, in which case it becomes a luxury limo).

2008%20Holden%20Caprice.jpg


When you're hot you're hot, I don't see why anyone should be upset by re-badges.
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Well then, too bad. That goes to show how terribly GM planned all this out. They killed Pontiac, thereby killing at least one of the very few cars they make that were worth a damn, that anyone actually wanted to buy despite it's price. Now you all think taking that car, with the same headlights, same tail lights, same greenhouse, same door shape, similar bumpers, same windows, similar interior, and same drivetrains (precisely the thing GM has been doing since the Civil War, and one of the reasons they died) is going to work. It's not. It's a horrible idea. I most certainly wouldn't buy one simply because I hold a grudge and it's the same crap GM has been doing forever. Many, many people think exactly that.

At least Pontiac was trying for a sporting image, and has a history of powerful, sporty cars. But the Caprice? When I think of Caprice I think of bad 1990s car-chase movies with Caprices crashing over curbs, wheel covers flying everywhere, hitting ramps, flipping, exploding into flames, and generally making a fool of themselves. Either that, or custom painted donks that make my eyes burn. Both of those types of cars are unnecessarily ponderous, and can hardly manage 15 mpg. Basically, the Caprice's reputation is garbage.

Joey D
I agree. If GM keeps on with the same re-badging process they've done for ages people are going to start wondering where their money went, because it obviously didn't go into R&D. Also with the poor sales of both the GTO and G8 you wonder what GM is thinking by trying to pawn off another Holden on us considering we didn't like the last two.
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Right. I'm one of the ones that liked them both actually. Bringing a car from overseas doesn't really bother me, because those platforms are completely new to us. But re-badging a car and simply parking at the dealer right next door is not going to fly. Taking what we already had, renaming it, and selling it exactly the same as it was is one of the things that killed GM.
 
Denied

Autoblog
From the horse's mouth: Lutz says Pontiac G8 won't spawn Chevrolet Caprice
General Motors' newly-appointed Vice Chairman, Bob Lutz, has penned a post on GM's Fast Lane blog that can be boiled down to two words: My bad.

A flurry of reports spurred on by Lutz' comments that GM was considering adapting the Pontiac G8 into a reborn, rear-wheel drive Chevrolet Caprice have been down-played by a number of the General's generals, including CEO Fritz Henderson. In Lutz' post, he put the final nail in the G8-cum-Caprice's coffin saying:

"The G8 will not be a Caprice after all. I'd mentioned it, and said we were studying it, giving it a serious look, because a car like the G8 was just too good to waste.

"That's all still true. But I have to say that, with my new "marketing" hat on, upon further review and careful study, we simply cannot make a business case for such a program. Not in today's market, in this economy, and with fuel regulations what they are and will be."

Lutz is quick to point out that the decision to kill the G8 will have no effect on GM's future rear-drive vehicles, and he went on to say, "... we have a tremendous RWD team in Australia that gave us the beloved G8, a team that we will tap into at some point again in the future for its expertise and sheet metal. Just not right now."

So... nothing to see here people. Move along...
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^^^ :banghead:

Precisely what Keef mentioned there is the thing that John McElroy keeps saying on Autoline Autoblog. While I agree 100% that it will help GM (and Chrysler), I can't help but think that that kind of solution will cost a bit too much, especially when GM needs cash. It worked for GM back when they had 50% of the market share and could support 8 different companies brands that were all different. But that doesn't really work for a company with only 15% of the market share. Even now it would be like trying to run four Mitsubishis, which probably wouldn't go over well.

Other than that, it gives each brand it's own image to strive for, and allows them to compete where they overlap, which creates better products. And I think that is much better than having superfluous cars that all step on each other's toes because they are so similar that they can't be called competitors.
 
Hmmm, that development is a disappointment, to say the least. I suppose that if GM doesn't think it will work, then so be it. Guess we will have to wait for a big RWD Caddy or Buick later on.
 
this is the first time I've heard this type of complaint about Badge Engineering.

sometimes I think people forget that the only thing actually "Made in the USA" nowadays is pickups, and that they've ALL been importing...from Canada and Mexico. American Industry has faded away because it's cheaper to have some Asian do it for three cents :P If GM is going to reinvent itself, it will have to be scratch designs from american design houses, american minds, and by american size standards. people liked "bowtie" Opels (the last Saturns), but that was the first thing to go to the chopping block. you can't win.

some suggestions to GM: Get rid of the SUV factories, make "appliances" till you can get back on your feet, and swipe every idea you can off the Japanese and Koreans...better yet, put the Japanese in CHARGE of the divisions!
 
Sniffs
some suggestions to GM: Get rid of the SUV factories, make "appliances" till you can get back on your feet, and swipe every idea you can off the Japanese and Koreans...better yet, put the Japanese in CHARGE of the divisions!
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*ahem...*

OR THEY COULD SIMPLY FOLLOW DR. DEMING'S RECOMMENDATIONS THAT HE PUBLISHED DURING THE '50S!!!!

That's basically the Japanese operating plan. Control charts and the like. That's why they can (or rather, could,) make good stuff cheap: they have low internal rejections (catching problems before they head out the door,) and low external failures (reliability) at the cost of high rates of preventative engineering and inspection.

It's been said that an American plant manager will brag about how little he stops his line, while a japanese manager will brag about how often, because every time you stop the line, you're solving a problem that will make things run better in the future.
 
Sniffs
this is the first time I've heard this type of complaint about Badge Engineering.

sometimes I think people forget that the only thing actually "Made in the USA" nowadays is pickups, and that they've ALL been importing...from Canada and Mexico.
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In the end the money still flows back to the US, right?
 
Prower: i doubt very much that a lot of people have heard of these "suggestions" remember that the Japanese were still considered a "joke", and not a threat, then...they didn't start becoming a car threat till europe pulled out. also, most likely, GM, Ford, Chrysler, and most likely Kaiser-Frasier payed to "bury" those findings (with half the money fronted by Ford himself or something). if these study results are from the fifties, they would probably also been roundly ignored.

Road dogg: you know, I kinda doubt it. how much stuff is manufactured locally...like components. i'll let Jim Prower answer that one, but I expect most of the parts money goes out of the States.
 
Actually, what happened is that they laughed Dr. Deming all the way to Japan. The Japanese were struggling at that time, hence the reputation for Japanese crap at the time.

Now? Who's number one worldwide? Toyota.

Why? The genesis for the reputation for Japanese quality comes from the late '50s and early '60s...because struggling Japanese manufacturing firms, (Like a little motorcycle manufacturer called Honda) listened to Dr. Deming's advice. Things like Control charts, to track the quality of lots and find where problems are, and the use of Statistics, were introduced to the Japanese...and suddenly, traditional Motorcycle manufacturers, especially in Britain, were getting hosed. Look! This Honda starts every time, no fuss!

The fact is that the US and European downturn in the late '70s and early '80s was partially due to the far better quality control at Japanese plants. This has ruined the image of many US Automakers, and, really, despite the fact that quality overall is a bit better, (On par/better than Japanese,) I still have some reservations, particularly about corporate culture, that still haven't been addressed, and I know that statistical quality control is not universal in this country, like it is in Japan. Kinda hit-and-miss.

People talk about this "Lean Manufacturing" stuff, too, Lots of "Six Sigma" jabber, but no-one really knows what it is. I've worked and studied the industry, I've seen it, read about it...I took a freakin' class on QC methods, and still have the book, which I'm referencing.

((Six sigma, BTW, is no more than 3.4 defects per million parts. That's tough to do.))

To keep this on topic, The thing is, bad batches of transmissions, or those with tight power tolerances, SHOULDN'T HAPPEN. We SHOULD be able to foresee these things and prevent them. The fact that this went unchecked signifies that there's something wrong at the engineering and manufacturing departments at GM. Someone's not communicating.
 
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Actually, it seems like the new thing is modularity and flexibility. Hyundai is profiting with theirs in their Alabama plant. They can build a variety of cars on the same line within a short period of time. And Hyundai can hire whomever they want and have them work whenever they need them.
 
if the british had listened, too, instead of laughing into their bowlers, the term "british car" wouldn't be a gigantic joke. and i know this even applies to the brits themselves!

nobody in the America of the Fifties would have wanted to listen anyway. they were too stoked from handing the Japanese their butts, watching pompus Europe get knocked on it's behind, surviving 4 continuous years of war with minimal damage, and finding themselves "large and in charge", communists or no.

if you've ever wondered, as a non american, where this comes from (the US's smug attitude), that's your answer. the communists took us down a peg for the space race, then we took THEM down a peg by getting to the moon, first.
 
^And thus, in our smugness, screwed ourselves for the future.

Pride comes before the fall, certainly did in our case.
 
Omnis
Actually, it seems like the new thing is modularity and flexibility. Hyundai is profiting with theirs in their Alabama plant. They can build a variety of cars on the same line within a short period of time. And Hyundai can hire whomever they want and have them work whenever they need them.
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Standardization and hatred of the unions is certainly a part of that. Kids my age hate the union up here, so it will be on its way out with the "New" GM and Chrysler. That, and it appears as though most of their vehicles are going to be built off of a handful of platforms, with a handful of engine variations anyway. Just like what Toyota was doing, and what Hyundai appears to have down as a science.

Good for them.
 
Mr. Denison said the failures of the output shaft, which was reported by Autoblog.com last week, occurred during standing-start, hard acceleration, with the engine at 5,000 to 6,000 revolutions per minute. He said about a dozen owners reported problems.
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OMG, these owners DESERVED to have their transmissions fail. Why the HELL do you need to do a full-bore high RPM launch when the proper launch point is half of that? I don't blame GM I blame the moron drivers.
 
General Motors has figured out what was causing failures of some 6-speed transmissions on its high-performance 2010 Camaro SS models, but the automaker is keeping it secret, said Adam Denison, a G.M. spokesman.
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I spy a chance for conspiracy.
 
Toronado
You could break truck transmissions launching at those speeds.
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I'm surprised you could even get a truck to rev that high.

(honestly, I kid, I kid...)

So...

Time to implement a soft rev limiter for when a car is sitting in first gear with the clutch depressed? :dopey:

Or time to put in the disclaimer: "Car not warrantied against complete jackalopes." :lol:
 

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