Zeta News 2.0: New VF Commodore and Chevrolet SS

[McLaren]

When you're hot you're hot, I don't see why anyone should be upset by re-badges.

Except half the GM brand isn't hot & I'd rather not pay $10,000 more for the same plastic crap I could get at $20,000 just because they slapped a Pontiac/GMC/etc. badge on it.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

GOOD NEWS-> 'Maximum' Lutz just came out from the retirement grave and guess what he did?

-> He brought back the utterly good Holden's [VE] platfrom from Pontiacs grave!!! YAY!

BREAKING: Lutz says Pontiac G8 to survive as Chevy Caprice in U.S.; Camaro Z28 reportedly dead

Bob Lutz is back, and after what seems like five minutes into his job as GM's new marketing kingpin, he's doing what he does best: making headlines. Rest assured that this is a good thing, as El Generalissimo Roberto Maximo told Automobile Magazine that yes, the Pontiac G8 will live on in the United States as the Chevy Caprice. So much for Fritz "I'm not a fan of rebadging" Henderson's statement to the contrary a couple of weeks ago.

"The last time we looked at [the G8], we decided that we would continue to import it as a Chevrolet. It is kind of too good to waste," Lutz told the mag. As for the G8 being "too good to waste": Amen to that, Bob. This also makes us wonder if law enforcement-grade models will be part of the deal with Holden to continue production. Chevy Caprice police cars? That's got a very familiar ring to it. The next question is whether a U.S. Caprice would mimic the Middle East-market Caprice, which is based on the long-wheelbase Holden Caprice/Statesman, or whether it will simply be a Chevy-badged version of the standard-wheelbase Holden Commodore/Pontiac G8/Chevrolet Lumina. Frankly, as long as there's ultimately a Caprice SS that is identical to the Pontiac G8 GXP in every critical way, we don't care.

In his conversation with Automobile, Lutz also essentially confirms that next year's Cadillac CTS coupe will be joined by a V-series variant, saying that the CTS-V coupe was the car that had most of the Presidential Task Force members' tongues wagging during the product-pipeline tour they were given by GM. Lutz even hints that a CTS-V wagon is not completely out of the question. (We'll take the wagon in brown, with the stick, Bob.)

On the bad news side, in a separate blog post, Automobile reports that Lutz kind of throws dirt on the idea of an LSA-powered Camaro Z28 (though he doesn't specifically state that the program's toast). He says that for "mainstream" sports models like the Camaro, powerful sixes (like the one in the Camaro LS and LT) and turbo fours (like the one used in the now-dead Cobalt SS, HHR SS and Solstice GXP) are more indicitive of the automaker's future direction in that regard. Hmmm. Well then, how about bolting a blower to the direct-injected V6?

Welcome back, Bob. This sounds like it could get pretty fun.

^ My question will be will New GM bring the LWB [WM] Statesman platform or retain the SWB [VE] Commodore platform?

-> I'd say the Caprice name is more suitable on the longer [WM] platform as history foretold that the car should be on a bigger platform. The LS, LT, & LTZ trims are perfect for the Caprice. The LS would be able to carry the detuned Turbo 4 from the Solstice GXP/Sky RedLine (lets say 220-240hp, the LT1 to LT3 should be able to carry the V6 over, while the LTZ can do with the G8 GT's V8.

-> For the successor of the Covette sedan, the G8 GXP. Easy! Bring back the Chevelle Sport (Turbo 4, 270hp) and the SS (420hp)! Duh!

^ Suddenly, its 1996 again! Wheee! 👍

 

[YSSMAN]

So do you think GM will keep the Impala around if we get the Caprice in the states?

My guess is that they would, for a short time. But, with this whole "GM Company" deal, I could see them deciding to drop the car to head full-bore into the Caprice. But, like you pointed out, there is still some rather unexplainable hatred of the RWD architecture, which would suggest that keeping a FWD Impala around would be a "good idea." But, the problem is that the Malibu is nearly the same size (not to mention a much better car), and the LaCrosse will be out by then as well.

I had a look at the pricing too...

G8 V6: $28,250
G8 GT: $31, 755
G8 GXP: $37,610

It would be smart for GM to kick those prices down a bit more to look like this:

Caprice 3.0: $27,495
Caprice 6.0: $30,995
Caprice SS: $37,495

Stick that against the Charger, and the Caprice is a solid value. But, the Taurus still undercuts the Caprice by a significant bit (the FWD SE starts at a little over $25K, but I suppose the $27K SEL would make even more sense). If they're going to offer a big car, they have to sell at big car prices too. Although, I must admit that I do fear ever so slightly for what kind of price war would happen with Buick and the LaCrosse in that neighborhood.

 

[Tornado]

I don't want to sound stupid, but why don't they sell the car as a new Impala? I know that the Caprice name holds/held a lot of weight behind it, but they have built the Impala for a longer amount of time and the current car isn't that bad. It also nicely circumvents the whole "Chevrolet is selling two different cars in the same product niche" problem that they continually seem to fall into, as the Caprice would essentially be a RWD version of the FWD Impala anyways.

 

[YSSMAN]

The interesting note I've come across at multiple websites is that Chevrolet could play a neat trick on all of us, making the "standard" V6 model the Caprice, and the V8-equipped models into Impalas.

Of course, the thing that we're all forgetting is that this will come with it:

...Well, with a Chevrolet badge instead...

Given the strength, reliability, and performance of previous 9C1 vehicles, you can bet your ass that GM is planning on baking a significant portion of their yearly sales into police vehicles. The Crown Victoria dies next year, I believe... The Charger is still too expensive, and of course, under-performs. Then think of the used ones that would be available not too much later.

 

[Tornado]

The interesting note I've come across at multiple websites is that Chevrolet could play a neat trick on all of us, making the "standard" V6 model the Caprice, and the V8-equipped models into Impalas.

I would actually expect them to do that. Not that much of a trick. Of course, I'm a child of the 1990's.

 

[mustangGT90210]

Isn't that what did for the Lumina/Monte Carlo?

Anyways, I smell my second car. 9C1 G8

 

[Omnis]

Chevy really knows how to take a car and make it uglier than hell.

 

[Philly]

I wonder how much redesigning GM would do to it. Neither the Statesman nor Lumina really fit into GM's styling language thing right now. And GM would be one to waste their money one something silly like that.

 

[Paulie]

Except half the GM brand isn't hot & I'd rather not pay $10,000 more for the same plastic crap I could get at $20,000 just because they slapped a Pontiac/GMC/etc. badge on it.

I was referring to the G8/Commodore/Caprice in particular actually, which is hot after all. You may not like the interior quality, but come on, it's not that bad at all. The only reason it doesn't sell well is because of the fuel economy, which is about to get much better anyway supposedly. If it does get a 3.0L DI V6 with a 6spd transmission it might just succeed where the G8 failed in the US market. In terms of a performance sedan though, even now it's a great buy and absolute steal.

In my personal opinion I don't care for materials used inside much anyway, function over form thanks.

 

[YSSMAN]

I wonder how much redesigning GM would do to it. Neither the Statesman nor Lumina really fit into GM's styling language thing right now. And GM would be one to waste their money one something silly like that.

I don't think they would change it much at all. That's my guess anyway. No, it won't exactly fit the Spark/Viva/Cruze/Orlando/Equinox/Traverse family... But the trucks, Camaro and Corvette, not to mention the Cobalt and HHR, are already outside anyway.

 

[Joey D]

Hold up!

When General Motors' Bob Lutz talks, we listen. The reason, of course, is that he always gives us something good to write. Over the weekend, we told you about an interview Lutz had with Automobile Magazine where the Maximum One said that the G8 will live on as a Chevrolet Caprice. Lutz's comments looked like a sure thing to us, as it's hard to misinterpret these words.

"The last time we looked at [the G8], we decided that we would continue to import it as a Chevrolet. It is kind of too good to waste."

Just a few days later, Blogger Bob sounded a bit less certain about the future of the G8 as Chevrolet. On the company's Fast Lane Blog, Lutz simply said "we're studying the feasibility of bringing (the G8) in as a Caprice for both law enforcement and the public." That doesn't sound nearly as certain as the Automobile interview.

Kicking Tires reportedly received a similar statement from GM brass, saying "As part of its reinvention, General Motors is exploring every opportunity of effectively utilizing its global portfolio of vehicles, facilities and talent. While this exploration includes the possibility of extending imports of Holden vehicles (such as the recent Pontiac G8) to North America, no decision has been made at this time."

We're hoping this is corporate speak for 'We're going to do what Bob says, but we just don't want to promise anything just yet.' Turning the G8 into a Chevrolet model looks to us like the cheapest possible way to keep a terrific vehicle available in the States, and with the Bowtie's significantly larger dealer network, maybe GM can finally figure out how to turn a profit with with the awesome Aussie.

 

[YSSMAN]

Corporate speak, that's for sure. My guess is that Bob is going to get what he wants, regardless of what the suits do or do not want to do. Seeing as how he singled out sales to police departments right there, I think it would be far more likely than not at this point. With the Crown Victoria gone, the Charger not performing as expected, and the Impala on its last leg, going with the Caprice is the only long-term option they would have that would be able to create the maximum amount of profit in the shortest amount of time.

Funny, in that same talk session, Bob talked about how the CTS-V Coupe was still on track, a project I had assumed would have been canceled. He even went on to say that a V-series version of the CTS Sport Wagon was still on the table, which would be full of WIN.

Bob is in charge, like he should be. We just don't know it yet.

 

[Leonidae]

Good news! Camaro transmissions break even without launch control feature.

*click*

Sporadic reports have begun popping up in the Camaro5 forums about issues with V8-powered SS models equipped with the manual transmission. It seems that doing a hard launch or using the launch control system occasionally results in a broken output shaft, a serious failure that will most likely leave the car immobile and in need of repair. We spoke with General Motors spokesman Adam Dennison about the problem and, as this is being written, a factory hold has been put on deliveries of manual transmission V8 Camaros while Chevrolet engineering teams investigate the problem.

Based on the reports, the transmission issues may not be related to the launch control system as the failures seem to happen whether or not launch control is engaged. The Camaro SS uses the Tremec 6060 six-speed gearbox – the same transmission fitted to the Dodge Viper, Mustang GT500, Corvette Z06 and other performance cars – so this is likely a manufacturing issue with a batch of gearboxes.

Dennison told Autoblog that an engineering meeting is being held this evening to identify the cause and establish a timing for the fix – and a recall seems likely. In the meantime, if you have a manual model Camaro SS, you might want to go easy on the launches for now – and if you have one ordered, you'll have to wait a bit longer

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> I would think the name Caprice would be too bland and old-legged compared to the high strung nature of the VE platform. It seems to be at home with the WM platform where it definitely belongs.

-> Y'know a good revival name fit for a G8-successor? How about the Chevrolet Bel-Air? If we remember, the Bel-Air came with a sedan (G8), wagon/Nomad (Commodore Wagon), and a coupe (Coupe60). The only drawback would be there will be no Cabrio/Convertible; who cares? Just bring the Ute as the new "Bel-Air based" El Camino!

^ Total hoonage awaits...

 

[Paulie]

Good news! Camaro transmissions break even without launch control feature.

*click*

Couldn't help but expect your latest post to be posting a problem again. I suggest reading the whole article:

"The Camaro SS uses the Tremec 6060 six-speed gearbox – the same transmission fitted to the Dodge Viper, Mustang GT500, Corvette Z06 and other performance cars – so this is likely a manufacturing issue with a batch of gearboxes."

I.e. Tremec sent a bad batch of gearboxes to Chevy by the sounds of it, which does happen on odd occasion, you know, a bad batch of parts. It's happened a few times to me at Ford, obviously not whole gearboxes, but there you go.

Edit: Totally right Vanishing Boy, a Bel-Air would be an awesome name for it and doesn't conjure any negative images.👍

 

[Leonidae]

not entirely true. Tremec 6060 tranny has different versions that can withstand different amounts of torque. For example, the ZR1 tranny can withstand 650lbs-ft and the one in Camaro was supposed to take 430lbs-ft.. but I think that you agree with me when I say that car manufacturers should find out problems like this before releasing the product at all..

 

[Paulie]

not entirely true. Tremec 6060 tranny has different versions that can withstand different amounts of torque. For example, the ZR1 tranny can withstand 650lbs-ft and the one in Camaro was supposed to take 430lbs-ft.. but I think that you agree with me when I say that car manufacturers should find out problems like this before releasing the product at all..

But it's probably not a problem at all as pointed out by Autoblog, more likely a bad batch of gearboxes from the manufacturer. Now stop making up ways to pin it on GM.

 

[Joey D]

not entirely true. Tremec 6060 tranny has different versions that can withstand different amounts of torque. For example, the ZR1 tranny can withstand 650lbs-ft and the one in Camaro was supposed to take 430lbs-ft.. but I think that you agree with me when I say that car manufacturers should find out problems like this before releasing the product at all..

Way to skew the information. There is no indication the car is responsible for breaking the transmission, but rather it seems like it is probably a manufacturing defect from Tremec. I think it's a little early to be making any conclusions.

===

And it seems like GM wants to continue pushing it's un-American ways by trying to make the Caprice a police cruiser.

Fritz Henderson to Autoblog: Chevy Caprice is being looked at as "police application"

Ever since General Motors announced this spring that it was killing the Pontiac brand as part of its restructuring, fans of the Holden-developed G8 sedan have been clamoring to save it as a Chevrolet. After company officials repeatedly said over the past two months that no such thing would happen, Bob Lutz re-lit the fire last week in one of his first pronouncements after un-retiring. Lutz proclaimed that the G8 would indeed become a new Chevrolet Caprice.

During our first drive of the new Buick LaCrosse this week, we had the opportunity on one of the legs to ride with GM CEO Fritz Henderson, and we pressed him for more details on the Caprice plan. Unfortunately it turns out Henderson brought his portable fire extinguisher with him, telling us:

We've been looking at it for police applications. As for whether or not it's broader than police applications, I am not a believer in re-branding and re-badging. We've been talking about in terms of potential police applications and we'll leave it at that."

Henderson also threw a soaking wet blanket on the idea of adding production to Oshawa alongside the Camaro, saying that the cars will continue to be sourced from Australia. So, for the moment, it looks like Zeta sedan fans will probably have to be content with taking a Blues Brothers approach to the problem: Buying their next car as a decommissioned black-and-white.

So basically they are going to take an Australian sourced car, that will probably be built in Canada and sell it to American police departments. So not only are federal tax dollars helping fuel the Australian and Canadian economies through the building of these cars, but now state and local tax dollars will be too.

 

[JCE]

Your last sentence says it all. 👍

In this day & age, the only way to truly "support" America by buying cars is by buying cars only built in the US.

There are no cars that are entirely built in the US though. So many of its components come from overseas that having a 100% American car is absolutely impossible.

PEven with financing isn't it like $15/ $1,000 per month?

Its $30 per $1000. 👍

I like it, except for the stupid TV's in the headrests. Good luck to GM for trying to make it as badass as the G8. I just hope the interior is Australian and not American. I do not want a American GM US, I would prefer a GM AUS.

 

[mustangGT90210]

Couldn't help but expect your latest post to be posting a problem again. I suggest reading the whole article:

"The Camaro SS uses the Tremec 6060 six-speed gearbox – the same transmission fitted to the Dodge Viper, Mustang GT500, Corvette Z06 and other performance cars – so this is likely a manufacturing issue with a batch of gearboxes."

I.e. Tremec sent a bad batch of gearboxes to Chevy by the sounds of it, which does happen on odd occasion, you know, a bad batch of parts. It's happened a few times to me at Ford, obviously not whole gearboxes, but there you go.

Edit: Totally right Vanishing Boy, a Bel-Air would be an awesome name for it and doesn't conjure any negative images.👍

But it's probably not a problem at all as pointed out by Autoblog, more likely a bad batch of gearboxes from the manufacturer. Now stop making up ways to pin it on GM.

Bad batch my ass. The problems here are with 2010 SS 6M Camaros. Those have 420 lbs/ft of torque. The TR6060 in them is only certified to 430 lbs/ft. It is internally weaker than the more hi-po TR6060s in the Viper/Vette/GT500. Just like how there was a World-Class and Non World-Class T5 transmission. The Camaro trans is the "Non World-Class" TR6060.

 

[Leonidae]

*bows* thank you for explaining it properly.

 

[mustangGT90210]

I even did it on Autoblog too, got flamed.

89

mustangGT90210 9:39PM (7/13/2009)

This may be the same transmission in design as used in higher up, more powerful cars, but Chevy cheaped out on the internals of the trans to save money. Now, before you go saying "It ain't Chevy's fault, it's all on Tremec," just hear me out. Tremec makes the trans, but Chevy wanted to save some coin, and to do so had Tremec make the trans with not-as-heavy-duty internals. Thus leading to all this breakage.

90
Brett
Brett 10:39PM (7/13/2009)

You are absolutely wrong. This is the same tranny shipped and used in other models. They did not "cheapen out" the internals. You are making things up to troll or start flame wars.
GM is and has been one of the MOST reliable auto manufacturers around. (There has been more problems with the low production GTR!) So people need to stop bashing GM and start looking elsewhere for the real cause of all the hate. The Camaro is awesome and people need to give GM credit for making the worlds coolest car

 

[Leonidae]

good thing that you didn't mention the Z06 convertible or broken differentials or oil starvation issues.. they would had lynched you.

 

[Tornado]

but I think that you agree with me when I say that car manufacturers should find out problems like this before releasing the product at all..

Even assuming that GM did cheapen out on the internals, that doesn't mean that this group of transmissions isn't a bad batch.

 

[Jim Prower]

Dear GM:

I have the number of a professor who teaches methods in Quality Control. His name is Dr. Krishnamoorthi. If you like, I can give you his phone number.

 

[Omnis]

Even assuming that GM did cheapen out on the internals, that doesn't mean that this group of transmissions isn't a bad batch.

Yes it does. They're good transmissions applied irresponsibly.

 

[mustangGT90210]

By that reckoning, ok, they had a bad batch, whatever, we'll let them slide, things happen. Now, I know for a fact that Ford(FRPP - Ford Racing Performance Parts) sells a CAI and exhaust/cams/other performance mods that won't void the warranty. Hell, they sell a Whipple Supercharger (a Twin Screw I wanna say), that, when installed by them, you keep your warranty, although it's still slightly reduced in length and mileage. Going off that, if GM offers even anything like that, and I do not know if they do, then those transmissions are going to break with just a CAI, possibly last long enough to get exhaust on it. Then you're over your 430 lbs/ft rating. Then what?


Also, being factory cars, it's possible for them to not all have the same output. Slight variances, if you will. I'd bank that there's some SS's puttin' out 430 lbs/ft from the factory, which is right on the limit of what the trans will hold.

(This is not a bash GM post)

 

[JCE]

Also, being factory cars, it's possible for them to not all have the same output. Slight variances, if you will. I'd bank that there's some SS's puttin' out 430 lbs/ft from the factory, which is right on the limit of what the trans will hold.

More reason to want an autobox since the car is too heavy to enjoy around corners anyway. And I would also agree with the bold part.

Now lets discuss the Caprice and let the Camaro discussion die. 👍

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Bad batch my ass. The problems here are with 2010 SS 6M Camaros. Those have 420 lbs/ft of torque. The TR6060 in them is only certified to 430 lbs/ft. It is internally weaker than the more hi-po TR6060s in the Viper/Vette/GT500. Just like how there was a World-Class and Non World-Class T5 transmission. The Camaro trans is the "Non World-Class" TR6060.

By that reasoning the ZR1 transmission should be breaking too. It's rated for 620 lbs-ft, where as the engine is rated at 604 lbs-ft.


What it looks like is that Tremec could have cheaped out and the transmissions can't handle 420 lbs-ft or Chevrolet underrated their engines and forgot. But that's beside the issue of GM's quality control.


edit: Looks like for 2010, the ZR1 transmission is rated for 650 lbs-ft. Any reports of ZR1's breaking transmissions?