Top Gear Test Track in Gran Turismo 5!

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I agree Jedi2016. Hopefully we can find a single tire combination that produces the most realistic lap times. But as someone else mentioned, if GT5 simulated the F430 perfectly and tire grip perfectly, then someone on GT5P could probably end up going faster then the stig because of not having to worry about going off or crashing plus they will get hundreds of laps. So as you said, if the best driver on GTP managed to go .5 faster with a certain tire then that's probably the right combination.

As for the tires, I would hope the tire would be a sports tires, as real super cars do not use 'normal' tires by any means. Most 'normal' tires that you would buy at your local tire dealer would fail at speeds in excess of 150mph. I may be wrong though, but to me that's the difference between a 'normal' and 'sports' tire

I'm going to go ahead and guess S1 or S2 tires will produce the closest results
 
for a true super car, i recon S3's are the most accurate, but its hard to say How PD calculate each tyre. Do they give each tyre a certain level of grip, or do they just add the compound to the surface area of the tyre to work out the grip, if they do calculate the later, then S2's will be the closest, if it is the first case then i bet it is S3's. I am not really sure how they work it out, infact for the first instance R1's are probably the closest.
 
I agree Jedi2016. Hopefully we can find a single tire combination that produces the most realistic lap times. But as someone else mentioned, if GT5 simulated the F430 perfectly and tire grip perfectly, then someone on GT5P could probably end up going faster then the stig because of not having to worry about going off or crashing plus they will get hundreds of laps.
Guilty as charged:

True, but there will always be a big difference between how driving in real life and virtually effect lap times. When you are driving a very expensive car in real life you are less likely to drive right up to the edge of what the car is capable of doing. In a game, all you have to do is start over.

Virtual drivers also have other advantages like lack of the physical abuse you take when pushing a high performance car to its limits and how that impacts lap times.

Virtual drivers also have the opportunity to run thousands of laps on a track... and no cost to them but time. Real race car drivers generally have very limited track time due to cost, access, time, etc.

So even if the virtual cars perform identically to their real life counterparts, the tracks are modeled to infinite precision, all combined with the most realistic physics engines ever made... experienced virtual drivers will beat the best times from real drivers.

Still, its all about having fun, and having the opportunity to pretend your The Stig is likely going to appeal to millions of TG fans! 👍

In fact, how cool would it be if PD adds an optional racing suit when driving on that track?




So as you said, if the best driver on GTP managed to go .5 faster with a certain tire then that's probably the right combination.
OK, now this is just a personal choice, but here is my take on it. Personally, I would much rather have a "time penalty" added to my lap times (+.5 seconds using the example you gave) rather than try and artificially lower my actual lap times to make up for the fact that I have an unfair advantage over any real driver due to all the reasons listed earlier.

The reason I feel this way is that high performance cars behave very differently with different types of tires and settings, and for me at least (personal choice here - no right or wrong answer), I want to "experience" how the car actually drives using the same set up. Sure, I may end up posting better lap times, because again, all the advantages a virtual driver has over a real driver... but I am also experiencing the car and the set-up as it was intended.

This also will give me a better appreciation for how much more difficult it is to race these high performance cars in real life.

So for me at least, I plan on, and would encourage others to do this as well, and that is to handicap yourselves, much like they do in Golf, instead of dumbing down the performance of your cars.

Using golf as an example, the handicap system is there so no matter what your skill level, everyone can play using the same equipment from the same tee boxes, and by handicapping, on average the final scores will be equal.

Bottom line, no dumbing down my car set-ups when comparing times against real drivers. I'll gladly accept a handicap time penalty though! 👍
 
When people talk about "realistic" tires in GT, are they talking about "realistic" street tires, or realistic racing tires. Because frankly, I don't imagine that many people use street tires on a track. Is the goal everyone's looking for to get a car as close to street accurate as possible? I'm confused.
 
When people talk about "realistic" tires in GT, are they talking about "realistic" street tires, or realistic racing tires. Because frankly, I don't imagine that many people use street tires on a track. Is the goal everyone's looking for to get a car as close to street accurate as possible? I'm confused.
For me, I have three favorite types of set-ups:
  • As close to how the car was when it rolled off the assembly line.

    (same type of tire, original tuning, etc)

  • As close as possible to how a car was set-up for a specific real world race event.

    (this is significantly harder to accomplish, as you have to do your homework to find out how a race car was modified and tuning is nearly impossible to know precisely, and thus this I must experiment and compromise on)

  • Adjusted to the level where my average lap times are even to the best equipped AI's average lap times... thus insuring a brutally close race without having to let up on the gas once in a while, or without even having a chance to win.

    (this, along with running original unmodified production cars, is the easiest to get accurately, as all it takes is time in getting to know the AI performance level in a specific race, and comparing those times to your own when trying out different cars and set-ups. Match the average lap times, and off you go.) 👍
These are personal choices, but they have served me quite well when playing GT3 and GT4. 👍
 
They might recreate the grip and physics of real-life tires and we can enquip them to any car. I hope they do. Like Pirelli, Bridgestone, and Yokohama.

Anywho, sounds like fun. :) The only other game I raced on the Dunsfold test track was in Racer.
 
Hopefully we can find a single tire combination that produces the most realistic lap times.

I want to say big NO NO here, this time PD has to set all to realistic conditions! When I want drifting in GT4 or realistic Nordschleife times, I must try between N1-N2 tires. S and R tyres brings only understeer on the limit, no throttle control of the car and I did 7:26 on Nordschleife with 360PS BMW M3 CSL, which is nonsense. No tire in the world can do that time with E46 M3 CSL. Second case is Clarkson's famous Laguna Seca race with NSX. Even with N1 tyres my laps were ten seconds faster than reality. I just hope for GT5 PD brings reasonable conditions for cars in the game and use factory tyres to reach realistic times.
 
I want to say big NO NO here, this time PD has to set all to realistic conditions! When I want drifting in GT4 or realistic Nordschleife times, I must try between N1-N2 tires. S and R tyres brings only understeer on the limit, no throttle control of the car and I did 7:26 on Nordschleife with 360PS BMW M3 CSL, which is nonsense. No tire in the world can do that time with E46 M3 CSL. Second case is Clarkson's famous Laguna Seca race with NSX. Even with N1 tyres my laps were ten seconds faster than reality. I just hope for GT5 PD brings reasonable conditions for cars in the game and use factory tyres to reach realistic times.
Were you fearing that you could kill yourself in GT4? No matter how realistic it is you will always get better times than a person in real life. The restart button is much less scary than the ambulance waiting beside the track.


Of course, I'm not sure exactly what your "NO NO" is for as most everyone here wants to find a way for everything to be as realistic as possible.
 
Were you fearing that you could kill yourself in GT4? No matter how realistic it is you will always get better times than a person in real life. The restart button is much less scary than the ambulance waiting beside the track.

You are pretty wrong with this opinion. Did you see Stefan Roser? He's just fearless at all. He can perform all the Nordschleife in 100mph drifts. But he lapped over 8 minutes with Ruf CTR. And the same car in the game just did under 7:35 in my hands. There is just the last piece into the puzzle missing, realistically implemented tyres. Don't be falsely forgiving to PD, you know it the same way as I do.
 
You are pretty wrong with this opinion. Did you see Stefan Roser? He's just fearless at all. He can perform all the Nordschleife in 100mph drifts. But he lapped over 8 minutes with Ruf CTR. And the same car in the game just did under 7:35 in my hands. There is just the last piece into the puzzle missing, realistically implemented tyres. Don't be falsely forgiving to PD, you know it the same way as I do.

In real life there are a million more variables. yes Roser is fearless. but just stop and think of all the variables real life throws at you. not just how fearless you are but car condition, tire condition, track condition, and weather condition. GT5 will never be able to recreate a complete simulation.

The timed lap you speak of was a once in a liftime event. You can never recreate all the variables of that place and time, it is impossible.

I will say that if you can't beat a real life time in a video game, you dont stand a chance of hanging with those guys in real life.
 
You are pretty wrong with this opinion.
Er... I don't get your point exactly. To say that a professional driver doesn't have death in the back of his mind, especially after an incident or near miss is illogical. Besides, bringing up GT4 when you can abuse the game all out of reason isn't a good idea, after seeing the definite improvements in the Prologue demo on the new Cell BE.

Instead, you should be judging the times capable on the demo. It seems fairly close to reality, though Kazunori-dono has remarked several times that he will improve the physics even more in GT5. And he has about a year or so to do it.

In any case, Digital-Nitrate has it about right. If I can run 100 laps in a car and The Stig can maybe run 10, I have the possibility of besting his time, remote though it is. :P

No penalties. Just give me the raw, realistic performance of a car under my control.

Edit: what turbomp301 said too.
 
Did you see Stefan Roser?
No, sorry. Maybe you could give me a link because I would love to see this.

He's just fearless at all.
Unless you are him you can't know this.

He can perform all the Nordschleife in 100mph drifts. But he lapped over 8 minutes with Ruf CTR. And the same car in the game just did under 7:35 in my hands.
Same car, same exact tires, same exact settings, same oil, same coolant, same engine wear, same track conditions, temperatures, gravel where it shouldn't be, marbles on the track, same angle of the sun, same visibility conditions, etc? I can guarantee you weren't running the same run and car as he was because yours was virtual and I will nearly guarantee you didn't have the same physiological responses as he did.

Don't be falsely forgiving to PD, you know it the same way as I do.
If forgiving PD for not being able to put Supercomputer abilities into a PS2 game is falsely forgiving them then I am guilty. Otherwise, I am just explaining to you how even if the physics were properly implemented you would still not be able to justifiably compare your time to his.
 
You are pretty wrong with this opinion. Did you see Stefan Roser? He's just fearless at all. He can perform all the Nordschleife in 100mph drifts. But he lapped over 8 minutes with Ruf CTR. And the same car in the game just did under 7:35 in my hands. There is just the last piece into the puzzle missing, realistically implemented tyres. Don't be falsely forgiving to PD, you know it the same way as I do.

"pretty wrong"?

Baron you are completely wrong. Consider yourself pwned on the subject. :lol:

I love it when the truth prevails. :cheers:
 
Hey, FoolKiller, I am not one of those spitting at GT all the time. I played the game year and half many evenings and nights with DFP and really loved it. But after two months and 63% of the game, it stopped entertaining me. And then 90% of the fun with the game was Nordschleife, any car and me. Mostly RUF CTR, M3 CSL, M5 or Zonda S. And all was with N1-N2 tyres just to feel the same things like in reality. The danger of your rear tyres spins you out in next curve etc. Just want new GT to be like it out of the box and in the all races. Not the same boring game like GT4 was :sly:
 
You are pretty wrong with this opinion. Did you see Stefan Roser? He's just fearless at all. He can perform all the Nordschleife in 100mph drifts. But he lapped over 8 minutes with Ruf CTR. And the same car in the game just did under 7:35 in my hands. There is just the last piece into the puzzle missing, realistically implemented tyres. Don't be falsely forgiving to PD, you know it the same way as I do.
The last piece???? Seriously?

As already discussed earlier in this thread, the difference between real racing and virtual racing is immense and has far too many variables for the real drivers to ever overcome the advantages the virtual driver has.
  • It isn't just about the risk of losing your life, although that's a biggie.

  • It isn't just about the risk of damaging very expensive cars, although that can also be a biggie.

  • It isn't just about the high cost of running one lap on a race course in real life, versus thousands in a game.

  • It isn't just about the very limited access drivers have to practice and race on specific tracks.

  • It isn't just about using key parts that are in less than perfect condition in real life versus a game.

  • It isn't even just about the physical demands that a real driver has to deal with, that a game player doesn't.
There are even far more variables to consider!
  • In real racing conditions, you have no control over the weather, and how much a role even a change of a few degrees has on the performance of a car and the way the tires react to the road.

  • In real racing conditions, the track is NEVER perfectly clean. Not only will debris and dirt get kicked up onto the surface of the track, but even car parts, and of course the build up of oil... all of these things can and do impact the performance of a real lap on a real course.

  • In real racing, drivers almost never get cars that are straight off the assembly line, with each and every one of their thousands of parts being 100% perfectly manufactured and tested so insure 100% reliability and 100% performance capability.
I'm sorry, but while the risk of getting hurt does effect many race car drivers, whether they wish to admit it or not, even then, and even if you had a driver who had brain surgery to remove all traces of survival instincts.... even then they would be faced with far too many disadvantages that a virtual driver doesn't have to face.

So no, that is hardly the last piece to any puzzle regarding why virtual drivers using a game that has accurate physics engines, and perfectly modeled cars & tracks should always be able to post better lap times in a game than in real life...it really is as simple/complicated as that.


What PD offers people is an opportunity to race without having to deal with all the uncontrollable variables that can happen in a real world, as well as giving players the opportunity to drive cars that have no random imperfections that impact their performance, as well as giving them tracks in near perfect conditions, without random obstacles, and temperature changes.

Basically speaking, the give a driver the opportunity to see what is "possible" with these cars on these tracks when you don't have to worry about losing your life; when you don't have to worry about damaging the car; when you don't have to worry about always buying all brand new parts for your car each race; when you don't have to worry about the high costs of racing and having limited access to practice and race on specific tracks; when you don't have to worry about the condition of all the key components in your car; when you don't have to worry about the tremendous physical strain one faces in driving high performance cars to the limits of their abilities; when you don't have to worry about random weather changes impacting your car's performance; when you don't have to worry about debris, oil, and other things that can without warning impact your performance; when you don't have to worry about random mechanical failures; etc... etc...etc...

There is no simulator that has ever been made that can with any reasonable accuracy represent all the conditions and variables real drivers face each and every day when they race. Sorry, it really is as simple as that.. but what they can do, which is quite good, is give drivers the opportunity to see what is actually possible with these cars in under perfect conditions... and frankly that's a good thing!

Yes, I also like having optional variables, like mechanical failures, weather changes, etc. But only as options.

When the goal is to see what is actually possible, and how each driver's performance compares with another, by giving them perfect cars and perfect conditions, and equal bravado in terms of driving without fear, and equal opportunity in terms of costs and access... yes games like GT are superb for seeing what is possible and fairly comparing driver skill without lap and race times being impacted by lots of uncontrollable random acts and personal advantages, like money, access, and bravado.

Given that we virtual racers race using cars and tracks in perfect condition, and never face the random unfortunate things that occur in real life, it is only obvious that virtually we will always be able to post faster lap times than even the greatest drivers that ever lived....

However, anyone who compares a virtual lap time to a real life lap time to then claim they are equal to or better than the real driver needs to have their head examined!

In addition, anyone who says a virtual lap time must be identical to a real life lap time in order to prove a game is realistic also needs to have their head examined!


Now as I mentioned earlier, I am all in favor of trying to come up with a reasonable "handicap" for virtual drivers, especially if we want to compare our times to "The Stig" in order to compensate for all the advantages as mentioned above that we have over "The Stig". By reasonable I don’t mean dumbing down my virtual car… as I want to experience a properly equipped and tuned car. But by reasonable I mean some kind of added time penalty.



Frankly, this also points out the problems with the "reported" lap times on shows like Top Gear, as there can be soooo many variables why a specific car on a specific day got one lap time, while the same car on a different day got different lap times... there are just so many variables that impact a cars performance, that while it is fun to do, and the Top Gear guys are all about having fun... at the end of the day though, they are rather meaningless, to misleading.

The great benefit to virtual driving is you can do away without all those pesky random variables, and thus lap times now all of a sudden take on a much higher level of accuracy for comparison sake. 👍


OK... that was far more than $.02, but I do get so tired of reading rants about how unrealistic a game is because they were able to post a faster lap time than Michael Schumacher or what ever their favorite race car driver is at the time. :indiff:
 
Talk about beating a dead horse.

Digital, its a shame your brain power has to be wasted like that.

If he doesn't get it now, he never will.
 
Is your avatar official or did someone create it?
Not official, and yes someone did:

I don't recall who it was, but someone on GTP made the following cover art design for GT5, which I think looks brilliant!

GT5_cover1_640.jpg


I'll probably print it out, and replace whatever PD ends up coming up with for the official GT5 cover, with this cover art instead. :)👍
I wish I could remember or find the post of the person who did.





I hope PD include a wet version of the Top Gear track because lets face it most of the filming is done in wet weather. :sly:
Lovely weather in that part of the world! :D





I'm hoping for a wet weather option for all tracks!
Agreed! I would even go several steps farther and say I would be really happy to see a wide range of weather conditions each made available as an option determined by the player/racers online. 👍

I would also really like to have the option of having real-time light conditions. So if I start a race at 10am in the morning, the sun will appear rising in the distance, and if I start a race at night then I must race at night.

In addition, I'd like to see changing light conditions for endurance races. 👍

These are just a few of the things on my GT wish list. :D
 
I can't resist this. I have just finished my own personal top gear track simulator for my pc. and I deliberately altered parameters until the time the liana took was close to the maximum recorded by real drivers.

If you really want to compare skills with real life drivers this is one way they could do it.
As long as the physics are reasonable, and I imagine the GT 5 physics will be amazing, you would be getting fairly genuine comparison with the stig and the various stars.

Doing it that way takes account of the missing fear factor and other reality factors.
If the GT peole would consider such an approach.

But it doesn't really matter. its just the interest of seeing what the track is like.

BTW i don't have the replays with the same views as the tv shows, those replays are rather deceptive, being limited , zoomed , and broken up.
And the track has rather a lot of straights I'm afraid. The first left turn though , is really quite fun .
The track is perhaps better for a fast car ( I cheated and had an alternate liana revved up to match a zonda.) because you are accelerating furiously down the straight and reaching hammerhead fairly quickly.

I just don't feel though, that the track has the 'flow' and continual driving
adjustment of the best tracks.

I admit, it would be very different in real life waiting to hit the corners at speed. My sim. liana leans over violently and i would be terrified out of my brain even approaching that condition . ... let alone losing all the rear grip .. as happens.

You are lucky people , to have the chance to see the track PROPERLY .. via GT5 . There are a lot of us out here who cannot ever have the connection speed necessary to download all these wonders! Hence the home built track of course.

Have fun all. .. glum
 
Not official, and yes someone did:

I wish I could remember or find the post of the person who did.
Thanks to Beerzgood, I now have the source of the art work:

I made this awhile ago and forgot to post it here, it's alright for a quickie I guess. :D



Click for full size.



👍​

There are several really interesting designs for GT5 covers in that thread as well, My GT5 logo design thread. 👍
 
Yes, I agree with it all, those are second items. But in reality, you have far more senses to feel what your car does. In game, you just see and hear. And in fact, when the game shaves half a minute from Nordschleife lap down, then it's just for laugh and seriously not "The real driving simulator." I would be perfectly satisfied with GT4 model with N1-N2 tyres out of the box. The laptimes with them were perfectly correct.
 
@ RedBaron:

If you have the Prologue demo, then compare the game's lap times to what Gabkicks posted here. If not, we geddit already.
 
Something cool to do when the game finally comes out is to have our own "Forum Member in a Reasonably Priced Car", where one member is chosen for a mini interview/lap time every week. Could be something fun to do, especially if they include the same car.
 
Something cool to do when the game finally comes out is to have our own "Forum Member in a Reasonably Priced Car", where one member is chosen for a mini interview/lap time every week. Could be something fun to do, especially if they include the same car.
That's a damn good idea. Takes it beyond the usual leaderboard. :)
 
Yes it would be beyond the leader boards for sure. I hope GT5 gives us the ability to upload videos and replays right from game itself, that way we could have a video of the person each week making a fool out of themselves out on the track. We could also have someone edit it with commentary for extra laughs.
 
Something cool to do when the game finally comes out is to have our own "Forum Member in a Reasonably Priced Car",
That's a very good idea.
Joey D
where one member is chosen for a mini interview/lap time every week. Could be something fun to do, especially if they include the same car.
and who's going to do the interviews? ;)
 
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