Forza3 Definitive Trailer: AKA Why we are better than GT5 w Pro Racer Testimonials.

Bogie 19th · Jul 23, 2009

Interesting comment from that article linked above:

"However, scenery apart, the Forza track is a pretty good representation and is probably based on the same DGPS model that the Nurburgring sell to games companies."

So everyone gets the same blueprint, and then each company has to add their own assets to the tracks? I thought I read that PD and Turn 10 both went out and used GPS devices, video and pictures to obtain the tracks.

Scaff · Jul 23, 2009

Joey D
Wasn't Forza 2's Ring reworked to accommodate online racing or something? I know I remember reading in a blog post or something about why it was off.

It was. They made it wider to accomodate more cars side-by-side for on-line racing, this of course screwed with the corner profiles and the track length. FM2 is better than FM1's 'ring, which was so far out as to almost be a different circuit.

Regards

Scaff

Lucas · Jul 23, 2009

Wow, I just saw a video of Forza 2's Nürburgring, and although I find it very pretty compared to GT4's, I also find it extremely akward when it comes to length and width.

Bogie 19th · Jul 23, 2009

Did they have to widen the ring for GT4 when playing online?

McLaren · Jul 23, 2009

Bogie 19th
Did they have to widen the ring for GT4 when playing online?

More than likely no. GT4's special online version was pretty much a beta & it was merely to test online components than rather trying to do anything special for it.

Scaff · Jul 23, 2009

Bogie 19th
Did they have to widen the ring for GT4 when playing online?

GT4 wasn't on-line (I know it could be 'adapted' to run on-line) and its version of the 'ring is very, very accurate.

Regards

Scaff

Bogie 19th · Jul 23, 2009

McLaren
More than likely no. GT4's special online version was pretty much a beta & it was merely to test online components than rather trying to do anything special for it.

Gotcha. Ok, so GT4 didn't have regular online then? (obviously I never played it). The PS3 is my first Playstation. I have only had an Xbox 1, Xbox 360 and Atari 5200 (yes, I am aging myself!)

McLaren · Jul 23, 2009

Bogie 19th
Gotcha. Ok, so GT4 didn't have regular online then? (obviously I never played it). The PS3 is my first Playstation. I have only had an Xbox 1, Xbox 360 and Atari 5200 (yes, I am aging myself!)

Nope, unless you went through Xlink (?), but that tricked the console & really had no effect on the game.

Joey D · Jul 23, 2009

I'm just curious, how accurate are other models of the Ring in other games? I know PGR4 had it and I think Race 07 has it.

markao · Jul 23, 2009

Joey D
I'm just curious, how accurate are other models of the Ring in other games? I know PGR4 had it and I think Race 07 has it.

Race 07 not, GTR Evolution has it

Based on the same CAD files that come with an official Nurburg Ring Nordschleiffe license as PD used. Some small differences in curbs, camber, etc., it is for me the most accurate version available.

Scaff
SatansReverence
Who could really care what a physics proffesor thinks when it comes to cars? Just because he can calculate how fast a car should go with xxx power and xxx weight doens't mean he knows anything about tire dynamics or wind dynamics and the game reviewers I refer to arn't your PSM or OXM reviewers. They are real car enthusiasts who decided to take a job reviewing simulation games.

Click to expand...

Oh please you didn't really say this did you?

Yes you did.

I've worked in the automotive industry (for dealerships, manufacturers and third parties) for most of my working life and I can catagorically tell you that people who hold physics degrees can tell you a hell of a lot when it comes to cars.

Click here....

http://phors.locost7.info/files/Beckman_-_The_Physics_of_Racing.pdf

...read it and then come back and start to talk about how a car behaves when its in motion.

If that's not enough info SatansReverence, you might want to look at this video from Brian Beckman: The Physics in Games - Real-Time Simulation Explained

3Axis · Jul 23, 2009

I found another comparison we need to discuss between GT and Forza:

Will they blend? That is the question.

Also, I can't believe how stubborn this guy is.
His recurring comment about the parking sensors in GT5

being "octagonal." Sounds a bit exaggerative. How much disk space and how many polygons did Turn10 waste in your "perfectly round" parking censors? Why haven't any wire frame views of Forza's models appeared? There's a difference between wasting 500 to 1000 polygons detailing a parking censor and using another 3000 for a windscreen and modeling the same details efficiently like Polyphony has done for a while. It's no wonder Turn10 can hardly get any cars in their game: they overcompensate.

Andrew C · Jul 23, 2009

3Axis
I found another comparison we need to discuss between GT and Forza:

Will they blend? That is the question.

Also, I can't believe how stubborn this guy is.

lol

That whole thing is actually kinda dumb. I remember they did GTA4 one time.

Zer0 · Jul 23, 2009

Bogie 19th
Interesting comment from that article linked above:

"However, scenery apart, the Forza track is a pretty good representation and is probably based on the same DGPS model that the Nurburgring sell to games companies."

So everyone gets the same blueprint, and then each company has to add their own assets to the tracks? I thought I read that PD and Turn 10 both went out and used GPS devices, video and pictures to obtain the tracks.

I don't know if they used the available data model as a base(I doubt) but they made a lot of work and tweaking to get it right, from the track bumps to the trees representation, all in perfect scale to match the real thing, no game is that close. Also I remember a lot of testing with real pilots to correct the possible track modeling inaccuracies.

skywolf23 · Jul 23, 2009

i love the ring, i loved it in gt4 i even went out found the official ring pdf, that breaks down every turn and bump for that matter on the track and shows the proper line and throttle usage great read and it was spot on far as i could tell for gt4, also drive the ring in rfactor felt way way different compared to gt4 stuff just seemed off, still a nice effort for a free mod team. but i must have put in dozens of hours if not more driving the ring in gt4 especially was proud of my saleen s7 6 minute something lap totally clean, took about 50 tries to get a 100% clean lap on the limit no dirt no wall riding, great feeling.

just for people that claims gt4 has no soul, i sure felt it driving that track with the driving force pro.

paskowitz · Jul 23, 2009

Thats crazy. As much as these little details are not that important by themselves over time they do add up.

SimRaceDriver · Jul 24, 2009

skywolf23
i love the ring, i loved it in gt4 i even went out found the official ring pdf, that breaks down every turn and bump for that matter on the track and shows the proper line and throttle usage great read and it was spot on far as i could tell for gt4, also drive the ring in rfactor felt way way different compared to gt4 stuff just seemed off, still a nice effort for a free mod team. but i must have put in dozens of hours if not more driving the ring in gt4 especially was proud of my saleen s7 6 minute something lap totally clean, took about 50 tries to get a 100% clean lap on the limit no dirt no wall riding, great feeling.

just for people that claims gt4 has no soul, i sure felt it driving that track with the driving force pro.

To further the point that GT4's version of the Ring was much more 'on par' with the real one, back in 07', my parents flew out from back east to visit for about a week or so and I had them both watch a video of the Radical on the Ring for a few minutes, so they could get a feel for what the track looked like...I then had them watch a Forza 2 (or whatever MS game had the ring in it first!) video and a GT4 vid and then asked them.."which video comes across as more 'life like?'...and they both said the GT4 video provided more of a 'I'm really there' feeling then the F2 vid.

This confirmed my own belief that GT's work on reproducing what it's really like to drive the Ring was much better then Forza or any other racing games interpretation of the green hell.

Bogie 19th · Jul 24, 2009

Zer0
I don't know if they used the available data model as a base(I doubt) but they made a lot of work and tweaking to get it right, from the track bumps to the trees representation, all in perfect scale to match the real thing, no game is that close. Also I remember a lot of testing with real pilots to correct the possible track modeling inaccuracies.

Love the photos! Especially the measurement of the building.

I did a bit more research and found this about F2:

"A lot of the old tracks are back from the first Forza, though rebuilt for 360. Were any changes made to the tracks that appeared in the first Forza?Greenawalt: As you've surely heard again and again from developers, going to HD and a more powerful console is a double-edged sword. You can make the environments look much better, but the content is extremely time-consuming to create. For Forza Motorsport 2, the tracks were pretty much rebuilt from the ground up. For several tracks we went back to the circuit to apply our new capture practices to the old venue. For example, in the original Forza, we captured the Nurbugring in Autumn and thus delivered it in fall colors. For Forza Motorsport 2, we went back to recapture the track in summer, in order to truly recreate the famous "green hell." Overall, to the player the biggest differences will be 60fps, 720p with full screen AA, 3D spectators, higher poly environments and advanced shader techniques.

and

"Forza Motorsport 2 is a simulator. Layout-wise, the focus is on complete accuracy. We're sort of obsessed with getting it perfect. We rent the track out for 2-3 days, take 3000 photos, collect 3 hours of video, get satellite as well as aerial photography, use engineer diagrams and extensive GPS to capture each track. We even record the wind, temperature and air pressure on the days we rented the track in order to get it just right. We have different coefficient of friction values for different types of concrete and asphalt -- even the sealant and online rubber effects tire friction. There is some freedom in the time of day, lighting and sky, but even that really needs to fit real-world locations."

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/788/788628p3.html

I guess PD and Turn10 are pretty dang serious!

otago · Jul 24, 2009

SUPER NUMBBER
Oh, I'm sorry, I haven't tried the ultra-rare version of GT that has Porsche cars in it. Can you lend it to me so I can evaluate what you mean when you say Porsches in GT understeer a lot? Thx...

I have two main concerns about Prologue:

1. You feel nothing about traction and limits. While in any PC sim and especially Forza you feel how hard you can push car and where the end will be, the only way to drive fast in GT5 Prologue just to remember the speed in each turn. Optimal racing line doesn't mean much here as well.

So just driving in GT5 is a good fun, but push the car to the limit and everything become weird, GT4 "physics" strikes back.

2. There is no real racing here. You just catching up with the first AI for two laps, then passing it like rocket and never see again. No any real fight bumper to bumper for the whole lap, all races are like overtaking PGR events.

skywolf23 · Jul 24, 2009

i feel the limits just fine in gt5p spec 3 at lest when the game first came out i think they were weaker, i have a driving force pro so i thought maybe it was just the wheel but when i started on spec 3 again recently i feel the limits just fine.

ai racing events in gt5p can be like that other event are so damn challenging just to make it into the top 3 it is insane, and honestly the event are nice in all the gt events, but the real meat and potatoes for me personally was prefecting my lines and times on tracks particularly the ring. to me driving hard is like golf your not only playing against the opponets your playing against yourself and the course.

gt5 will be great fun being the first gt with online play with 16 players, ai races will be purely to build up your money and pimping your ride to use online, not that i would mind real event races if they do improve the ai that much.

Cheshyrkat · Jul 24, 2009

otago
1. You feel nothing about traction and limits. While in any PC sim and especially Forza you feel how hard you can push car and where the end will be, the only way to drive fast in GT5 Prologue just to remember the speed in each turn. Optimal racing line doesn't mean much here as well.

Do you play with a controller or wheel? With the statement above I would think you dont use a wheel. Prologue does a phenomenal job of conveying traction when pushing your car. That feeling was very well represented with the Logitec DFPro and a bit more refined with the G25. Granted Ive only played Forza 2 with the horrid MS wheel and not the latest Fanatec wheel but out of Prologe and Forza 1/2 Forzas cars feel far more disconnected from the track and the driving is especially sterile with just the controller.

Cant really argue about the racting. Its always felt tacked on purely for a gaming aspect to me, well at least when against the AI.

niky · Jul 24, 2009

paskowitz
Thats crazy. As much as these little details are not that important by themselves over time they do add up.

The little details mean everything. They mean getting that car-spinning bump on Daytona just right... or the various bumps and ruts on the Nurburgring right... the more detail available on the track, the more organic it feels. I drove the Nurb so many times in GT4 that it feels almost as familiar as my driveway... and yet I still stumble on the really fast sections after the Karrusel, there are a million myriad little bumps and off-camber sections that could take ages to master. (my tactic for that treacherous long almost-straight piece of asphalt? Point the car, feather the throttle, and pray... :lol:

)

otago
I have two main concerns about Prologue:

1. You feel nothing about traction and limits. While in any PC sim and especially Forza you feel how hard you can push car and where the end will be, the only way to drive fast in GT5 Prologue just to remember the speed in each turn. Optimal racing line doesn't mean much here as well.

You can feel them pretty well with a wheel. With a controller, it takes a lap or two to suss out the limits, but what do you expect without force feedback.

So just driving in GT5 is a good fun, but push the car to the limit and everything become weird, GT4 "physics" strikes back.

Weird? Tails twitching under braking, plowing understeer if you carry too much speed into a corner, the car becoming unsettled over hills and rises? That's "realism". And you can't talk about GT5 without having driven it yet... :lol:

2. There is no real racing here. You just catching up with the first AI for two laps, then passing it like rocket and never see again. No any real fight bumper to bumper for the whole lap, all races are like overtaking PGR events.

Special events are a pain. Especially the PP limited ones. But I will agree the AI isn't any great shakes. But that's because they dumb it down to make it possible for 90% of players to at least get a bronze on all events.

SatansReverence
GT as a series has nothing which I would call a feature.

Of course, since this is merely an opinion, I guess you can't be censured on it, you sly boy, you. Of course, your arguments have nothing which I would call logic.

Biggles · Jul 24, 2009

I have two main concerns about Prologue:

1. You feel nothing about traction and limits. While in any PC sim and especially Forza you feel how hard you can push car and where the end will be, the only way to drive fast in GT5 Prologue just to remember the speed in each turn. Optimal racing line doesn't mean much here as well.

So just driving in GT5 is a good fun, but push the car to the limit and everything become weird, GT4 "physics" strikes back.

2. There is no real racing here. You just catching up with the first AI for two laps, then passing it like rocket and never see again. No any real fight bumper to bumper for the whole lap, all races are like overtaking PGR events.

I would have to agree with these points:

1) This has been my concern with Prologue & where, IMO, it doesn't compare favourably with Ferrari Challenge for example. With lots of practice you learn exactly where the limits of traction are with GT5P, but you don't feel it strongly (at least with the G25).

2) I can't stand "racing" the AI in the GT series when the AI is much slower than it should be & the only challenge presented is in having to overtake 15 cars in an unreasonably short amount of time. That's NOT "racing" IMO - it feels more like a platformer-style game where you have to "learn & beat the pattern".

Having said all that, the Nordschleife in GT4 was a magnificent achievement, & an example of where PD's attention to detail really paid off. It was so good that it actually made up for some of GT4's shortcomings in the area of physics. I'm expecting the RL tracks in GT5 to be of an even higher quality.

Pierced Lead · Jul 24, 2009

Those pictures just show how devoted PD is to their work and the integrity of GT.

Raitziger · Jul 24, 2009

Biggles
With lots of practice you learn exactly where the limits of traction are with GT5P, but you don't feel it strongly (at least with the G25).

I agree to this. From what im heard from guys using fanatec wheels, it feels like a new thing with a belt driven wheel.

SatansReverence · Jul 24, 2009

Scaff
Please do, and as I said, its not a dig at you, just normal practice here at GT Planet.

Thanks

Scaff

Been raining lately so abit dirty.

myke6699 · Jul 24, 2009

sejtur
To Bogie19th:
Okay, fair enough.

I expect the physics of GT5 to be almost thesame as GT5 Spec III, but I could be wrong.

About the speed feeling; I think it's alright in GT5P. If you're watching F1, and you see some onboards, it sometimes doesn't even look near the speeds that they're really doing. Unless they get to Monte Carlo, which has everything very close to the track, thus you have more feel of speed. In GT5P, atleast I also have that with even going to the london track with for example a Ferrari. It's too bad that there is no G-Force simulator, because only then you get the real feel of speed.

I saw a vid of Forza 2 on the nurburgring, and it didn't look that speedy either. It just depends on the track you race on I think, and ofcourse the vehicle.

It would be rather foolish to think that PD is keeping the same physics as GT5P. Evolution has always been GT motto and even GT5P went through at least 3 physics changes (improvement?). And the changes from GT:HD (PD first foray onto PS3) to GT5P Spec I is quite significant.

Jay · Jul 24, 2009

I don't understand how people can't feel traction limits and have to go by speeds in GT5P but I guess everyone is different.

C-ZETA · Jul 24, 2009

Another one: GT5 will have better tuning and as a result possible exceed Forza in that.

Raitziger · Jul 24, 2009

SatansReverence
"pictures"
Been raining lately so abit dirty.

I am quite sure that GT5 handles better than that thing

sejtur · Jul 24, 2009

Jay
I don't understand how people can't feel traction limits and have to go by speeds in GT5P but I guess everyone is different.

Maybe they don't have a good wheel.

Forza3 Definitive Trailer: AKA Why we are better than GT5 w Pro Racer Testimonials.

Bogie 19th

Scaff

Lucas

Bogie 19th

McLaren

Scaff

Bogie 19th

McLaren

Joey D

markao

3Axis

Andrew C

Zer0

skywolf23

paskowitz

SimRaceDriver

Bogie 19th

otago

skywolf23

Cheshyrkat

niky

Karma Chameleon

Biggles

Pierced Lead

Raitziger

SatansReverence

myke6699

Jay

C-ZETA

Raitziger

sejtur

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