Forza3 Definitive Trailer: AKA Why we are better than GT5 w Pro Racer Testimonials.

[Lucas]

Gosh, that forum has some of the most stupid people I have ever seen. One word and you are already a fanboy.

I don't care what he has said here. They probably don't know him, he even said "The graphics could be better."

 

[geordie]

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/2641337.aspx

Please read this carefully, mods especially, cause we have something special here regarding our friend Satan

I have read his posts in the forzamotorsport forums.
He is just a troll.
He goes onto the Forza forums and slags of Forza3 and he is also posting on GT forums slagging of GT5.

I will be getting both the games because without any doubt at all i no they will both be great games

 

[Blitz187]

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/2641337.aspx

Please read this carefully, mods especially, cause we have something special here regarding our friend Satan

 

[C-ZETA]

He goes onto the Forza forums and slags of Forza3 and he is also posting on GT forums slagging of GT5.

The real perplexing question is, which racing game does he trust the most?

 

[amar212]

 

[d3br34k5]

Also, do I own a PS3? No, I would not wa... If you want to continue that do so im PM's

You're so full of PS3 nerdrage-hate that you can't even complete a sentence about why you don't have one. I would wager it to be the same reason that you don't have at least a couple of old cellphones around that you could quickly take a picture of your 'car' with.

Have I played GT5? Yes, I played it using a mates PS3 (which had atleast 1/4 inch of dust on it).

Good one! You've just completely discredited yourself and confirmed everyone's initial suspicions of your irrational console hate. I knew there was a reason you were avoiding that question and I could sense that your rage was more deeply-seeded than just the GT series itself. Well, you found a very entertaining forum for yourself and your anti-social activities, anyways.

I'm interested to see this "Car" you own as it sounds pretty sweet, but based on your linguistics and previous mannerisms towards everyone except for our fine forum moderators, I'm fully expecting strike 3.

 

[Lucas]

Epic post.

 

[El Drifto]

LOL @ that Forza forum.
This is one epic thread.

 

[Pierced Lead]

SR is never satisfied is he?

 

[Jay]

I'm interested to see this "Car" you own as it sounds pretty sweet, but based on your linguistics and previous mannerisms towards everyone except for our fine forum moderators, I'm fully expecting strike 3.

No offence to SatansReverence's car (As I haven't seen it) but very few Australian's would call a 1982 Ford Falcon (XE I presume, or late XD) with a cross flow 6 as a 'sweet' car, and probably even fewer would question someone if they claim ownership of one. unless it was an ex Dick Johnson racing car or something.

But as GTP rules, pics please (I honestly would like to see it)


BTW It is very late in Melbourne at the moment so I don't think you guys will get SR's reply until tommorrow.

 

[dylansan]

About rally in GT, how is this not considered a feature just because it is not done as well as it could be (and I think it's done pretty well)? You consider livery editors a feature, despite the incredibly annoying glitch that made it useless to me in Forza 2.

 

[Dave A]

First, I did quite clearly say GT created the whole car sandbox genre.

And bravo for reconising that. It's not something I'm disputing.

I would not call GT2's rally, well, rally. It was nothing more then road racing with less grip and "dust" being kicked up.

No, it's rally. I don't think you quite understand what a games physics are. What do you think a programmer does to get a track to feel like it's an off road track? How the track looks has nothing to do with it, just the programming? To a game a surface is a surface. All the programmers are doing is altering that sufaces properties. you can throw other calculations in there, like having the tyres cut a groove into the road or as done in RBR calculate the dirt build up under the wheels when accelerating and decelerating.

Sega GT had power loss over time and was linked to turbo boost preassure (more boost, faster wear and tear) back at the xbox's launch.

If that's true then fair enough. I had SEGA GT on the PC but I don't recall that happening but then I didn't play it much, it wasn't very good imo.

Slightly upgrading the game from one interation to another is nothing new, nothing revolutionary.

Never said it was, but that's all Forza has done since Forza 1.

Alot of you GT fanboys still havn't gotten it through your heads, maybe it is because you just sit in your parents basement all day who knows but there is more to simulation then just driving (even then it is debatable that GT has good physics).

Yes, there is, but the key part of a driving game is, driving 💡. Get the driving physics right and anything extra is a bonus. Having damage is great, but if the driving physics arn't that good then the game as a driving sim is no good.

Basically, a simulation is the recreation of the real world on a computer. In the real world cars get damage, cars paint gets scratched and cars don't take nuetonian theories so literally.

True, and no one is arguing otherwise, but the key here is that these are driving games. While I agree it is good to these things in the key part, the part that stands before everything else is the driving physics. And GT5 is far better than Forza 2 in this regard.

Forza was the first console game (maybe even racing game altogether) to bring all these different types of racing and UGC (user generated content) together.

First console game, yes. but I can pick a number of things any one of the Gran Turismo games was the first to be when used in combination with everything else.

Again, the number of cars is entirely relevant when it comes to damage. No other game came close to 200+ cars with damage, both physical and visual and now no game can even touch Forza 3's 400+ cars with damage and roll over. GT still hasn't got the basics yet.

No it's not, the damage is the feature. I don't care if 400+ cars can be damaged as opposed to 200 cars if the game with 200 cars is a better sim. Damage is a feature, you can't say there are 400+ cars, all of which can use the games rewind button. There are 400+ cars all of which can be panted. They are features and by that logic, damage and the livery editor would be the only areas Forza beats GT since GT does everything else but to more cars.

Again, I am not the one who directly compares Forza 2 to PC sims, that is the proffesional game journalists who specialise in SIM RACING and even they rate FM2 higher then GT5.

Not many, I've read plenty of reviews and such that claim GT5 is more realistic. Importantly I've read and heard views of people with real track experience saying GT5 is more realsisitc. Back to the professional game journalists though, you've killed your point right there. "Game journalists" not scienticsts, not racing drivers, not race engineers, game reviewers. Even if they all said Forza 2 was more realistic (which they don't) it's a futile argument because they are jsut game reviers and in general they know no more about physics than the average guy.

Yes, forza copied the BASIC fomula of GT1 but expanded on it also.

It expanded in certain ways, GT is still more expansive than Forza in other areas.

Between GT1 and GT5 nothing new or exciting has been added. NOTHING.

Tha's your oppinion and you are entitled to it. I could make the same claim about Forza but the truth is there are certain features that have been brought into both series that I've looked forwards to.

GT2 and GT4 may have had more cars with which to but more options but the customisation cannot touch Forza.

Yes it can, in every way except the livery editor. and power train swaps. Besides thoes two things. I agree they are nice, but they don't onpen up a gulf. You are very extreme in your views. If something is fractionally better you are viewing it as a mile. People can play that card against you, but I'm glad they don't because it's showing the real gulf in this debate, your maturity and the rest of ours.

I remember reading a calculation in a review of Forza 1 where the total number of unique cars excluding livery editing (including paint) was something in the trillions or something (will look for it again)

So. Anyone can come up with thoes figures, do you think GT4's possible combinations is small. I'd wager that it's higher than Forza 2's.

In Forza 2 no car's bonnets or boot open up and I would prefer slighty limited damage on some cars compared to no damage across all cars.

They don't fly open but some do look like they pop up, either way I was just highlighting that the damage in Forza is inconsistent, it's dependant on the car you are driving.

No, GT did not open any doors for hardcore PC sim racers. I have never seen anywhere where a PC sim racer has said GT has gotten him/her onto consoles.

I have, quite a few. But like I said the vast majority of hardcore sim racers ignore both games. It's still a moot point but the sheer fact that GT did what Forza does many years earlier than Forza by definition means that opened the door to that type of game first. Forza 1 did not have good physics, they were not on a par with GT3's and where noting like a good PC sims at that time. Forza 2's were a lot better, still very flawed and though some may argue they were better than GT4's the truth is liekly to be that they are very close. they jsut succeed and fail in different areas. GT5's physcis are notably better than both GT4 and Forza 2's physics.

You do not set sidewall height through pressure, you buy different rim sizes and running low pressures gives the car a VERY squigy feeling just like low pressures in real life.

The pressure determines how flat the tyre will run, it doesn't decide how big the sidewall is, but how high from the perimiter of the tyre it will reach and once that's set the tyres shape is not affected mid race.

Seriously? It's just a graphical representation?

Yes.

Shows how much, or how little, you know about games.

More than you it would appear.

Linking the physics engine to the graphics engine in such a way that in real time it can deform tires in a game with real time reflections of other cars, advanced lighting, extremely high poly cars, 360 htz physics and possibly the best A.I in console racing is far, FAR from an easy task.

Take a step back, we are not talking about the whole, we are talking about one detail contained within that whole. The visual deformation of a tyre in the game. It is nothing more than a graphical effect, the physics would be exactley the same if that visual deformation was not present in the game. It's a graphical detail like the grass in GT5 swaying when the cars drive past, it is a nice touch and I am not suggesting otherwise, but in terms of importance it's not very important.

I did clearly say in terms of COLLISIONS that GT5 is on par with burnout and the only difference is that your car slows down when you hit the other car.

And you are still way off. GT5 may not have the most dramatic collisions, but they are far more complex than Burnouts. I think I know where you're going wrong here but I don't want to jump the gun.

The difference is rewind and auto-brake (which is available on some cars in real life to a certain extent) ARE optional. Comedy collisions are not.[/QUOTENeither are all the things Forza get's wrong with its' phyics. No game is perfect, none will be for a long time. Even still, Foraz's collisions are better but the AI turns them into a nuisance at times.

Who could really care what a physics proffesor thinks when it comes to cars? Just because he can calculate how fast a car should go with xxx power and xxx weight doens't mean he knows anything about tire dynamics or wind dynamics

Do you think that's all a physics professor could calculate. Who do you think the tyre manufacturers employ to calculate the tyre dynamics on thier tyres?

and the game reviewers I refer to arn't your PSM or OXM reviewers. They are real car enthusiasts who decided to take a job reviewing simulation games.

So you say, and so they say. I've seen plenty of racing drivers who have happily commented on how good the GT games have been releative to the times the games were out. You're argument has no valid point.

Forza hasn't been based entirely on GT since the first. It took the basics and expanded on them in ways GT5 still cannot match.

GT:5P cannot match in features, because it is not a fully fleshed out GT game, so you are correct in that sense, but GT4 matched Forza 2 as far as the off line game was concerned. You really need to stop putting forwards vague opinion based comments and post them as facts, really. It's annoying.

Forza 2's A.I is so far ahead of GT5's A.I it isn't funny. I rarely if even get hit by the A.I when I wouldn't expect to. Only when I try to overtake on a tight corner/section does the A.I OCCASIONALLY turn in when I am down the inside. Every other time you can see the A.I making moves on each other and yourself and they, 9 times out of 10, leave room for you and or the other A.I players to make a clean move down the inside.

It seems you have a different copy of Forza 2 to me. I've done plenty of testing with the AI in Forza 2 and while there are cases where the AI will give you room, there are certain AIprofiles which are far too agressive. I've had a car turn into me on the start grid. And to show just how great the AI is, I restarted that race 10 times, and the only time the AI car didn't turn into me was when I turned into him first. I re-started the race and each time I did something different but the AI did one of the same two things, every time. Both resulted in it turning into me except when I hit him. GT5's I've found does leave room, they do pull over and they don't ram you just because you're in thier way. They do still hit you, but usually when you're racing in a tight pack and don't keep your lane discipline or you make an unexpected manouver. GT5's AI is not perfect, but I wouldn't rate it as bad.

As I said a page or so ago I remember hearing rubber banding applied to GT5's physics, when it was brought to my attention that wasn't the case I promptly apologised for the confusion. Maybe you fanboys should learn to actually read.

In that case I apologise, you have made a lot of posts and I must have missed it.

Also, you cannot use the A.I as a brake in Forza 1 or 2

Yes you can.

and I can be 99.999% certain in Forza 3. Why? becuase you in the A.I particularly in a corner your cars rear will come unweighted and your back in with spin out and IF you have damage on you will be far from a fast or competetive on your way to the line.

No you won't. It's just a question of how you do it. In Forza you can quite easilly bump another car off the track without crippling yourself or knocking yourself off the track too even with full damage no. It's just a case of technique.

Oh, there is one point I don't think I have brought up yet, audio. Seriously, can GT5 sound any worse? The only car that sounds even semi similar to the real thing is the Viper.

I agree, GT's engine sounds through the series history are a weak point.

I will concede ... that ... GT5 ... is better then Forza 2...

Can I just quote this? Don't worry I know it's not what you said, I'm just keeping this friendly .

 

[Blitz187]

^^^^^ Looks like Dave left his mark again

 

[Raitziger]

Seems like someone needs the rewind button from forza 3 to take back couple of posts

 

[KSaiyu]

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/2641337.aspx

Please read this carefully, mods especially, cause we have something special here regarding our friend Satan

You know, I was going to ask him yesterday whether he was Australian because he reminded me of that guy. The amount of times he's contradicted himself on FM.net is legendary, and it's pretty funny to see him on GTP now.

 

[Scaff]

Who could really care what a physics proffesor thinks when it comes to cars? Just because he can calculate how fast a car should go with xxx power and xxx weight doens't mean he knows anything about tire dynamics or wind dynamics and the game reviewers I refer to arn't your PSM or OXM reviewers. They are real car enthusiasts who decided to take a job reviewing simulation games.

Oh please you didn't really say this did you?

Yes you did.

I've worked in the automotive industry (for dealerships, manufacturers and third parties) for most of my working life and I can catagorically tell you that people who hold physics degrees can tell you a hell of a lot when it comes to cars.

Click here....

http://phors.locost7.info/files/Beckman_-_The_Physics_of_Racing.pdf

...read it and then come back and start to talk about how a car behaves when its in motion.

Every single text I have worked with in regard to training vehicle dynamics (oh yes that is something I have done in the past) requires a solid understanding of the physics involved.

One topic that most certainly requires this is that of tyre deformation, lets be rather blunt about this, who the hell do you think the tyre companies employ to calculate how a tyre is going to behave?

You seem to want to dismiss the importance of physics in the behaviour of a body in motion and to be honest that has annoyed the hell out of me. I trust that you fully understand exactly what is involved in regard to this to be able to dismiss it so easily, with a solid understanding of slip angles and percentages, PMIs, yaw rate, etc?




Regards

Scaff

 

[Bogie 19th]

While I agree it is good to these things in the key part, the part that stands before everything else is the driving physics. And GT5 is far better than Forza 2 in this regard.

Good debate here. I like the fact that people take the time to actually post constructive posts on this forum. I like it!

As for the comment above that I snipped out, I just can't agree with that, based on my experience. I know it's opinion and it's really subjective, but I am curious as to what makes one believe that?

Granted, I only have experience with F1, F2 and GT5p.

 

[sejtur]

Good debate here. I like the fact that people take the time to actually post constructive posts on this forum. I like it!

As for the comment above that I snipped out, I just can't agree with that, based on my experience. I know it's opinion and it's really subjective, but I am curious as to what makes one believe that?

Granted, I only have experience with F1, F2 and GT5p.

I assume you mean car physics realistically speaking?
I haven't driven any cars that are in GT (except for the Golf V, but not the GTI version) but if you have driven any cars that are in the game, or even better, in both games, you must have come to the conclusion that the Forza physics are more realistic, right? I really don't know because I never played Forza.

A few pages back, there is a piece that Jeremy Clarkson wrote about the physics in GT4 and he had only a few remarks.

If you're talking about just liking the physics, well, that is really subjective as you said.

 

[geordie]

That car must be from GT5 as it has not got the high gloss of Forza3 cars.

 

[Cheshyrkat]

Good debate here. I like the fact that people take the time to actually post constructive posts on this forum. I like it!

As for the comment above that I snipped out, I just can't agree with that, based on my experience. I know it's opinion and it's really subjective, but I am curious as to what makes one believe that?

Granted, I only have experience with F1, F2 and GT5p.

As far as the driving(single car on the track) is concerned in my experience, consoles only, GTP is by far the most convincing. The sticking point for me is how weight is portrayed. GTP pulls it off in spades. Cars actually seem heavy and under braking and acceleration that weight very convincingly shifts and affects how the car behaves. Forza 1 and to a lesser extent Forza 2 lacked this or lacked to portay it in a convincing manner. Depending on the car it may not always be the most accurate but all sim like racers have this problem.

The other thing for me that puts GT a head of other console racers is how the car interacts with the road. GT and especially GTPs cars feel very connected to the track. Things fell apart when you went off the track and to this day I think the Toca series handles that best. Forza's cars in comparison felt very disconnected and almost seemed like they were hovering above the track.

I have no idea if things will change in Forza 3 but I will be first in line to check it out this fall.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I have driven VERY few of the cars in GT5p/Forza 2 in real life, and I am not able to comment on the realism of them all. God...I could only dream.

I am not saying one is better than the other really. They both seem to be different, and yet neither one seems to be better or more realistic based on my experience, and my driving history (and small racing history). I am 37 years old, and in my 21 years of driving, I have probably driven 150 different cars, and raced a few late model RACE cars (not production models, which is mostly represented in these games) on half mile tracks (Madison International Speedway). I couldn't tell you what it's like to race a 2009 Corvette ZR1 on the ring at 210 mph down the straight, or through a chicane on the ring at 150mph. I could only only only DREAM of that.

Both seem to try to do a good job representing from my experience so far, but by no means does it feel like the actual cars. I like what they are trying to do though. GT5p seems kinda slow moving (granted I am in C class right now), but I don't see the sense of speed I see with F2. The feedback and physics I get from rumble strips seems more realistic and has a better rumble strip physics in the car response in GT5p than Forza 2 does though.

GT5p is merely a taste of what is to come, so I don't expect it to have all the physics that Forza 2 has. Overall, I have experienced more physics variables in Forza 2 than in GT5p. Not saying they are BETTER, just more...and that is because Forza 2 has more and is a full game unlike GT5p. The physics is one of the things I have liked about Forza 2 so far.

how the car interacts with the road. GT and especially GTPs cars feel very connected to the track.

Yes...that is one thing I have liked about GT5p so far. The cars feel heavier, and feel more connected to the track. Then again, that has made it easier for me to control around corners, which might be another reason I prefer it. I am racing in Pro Physics mode, but I can stay on the track much easier than I can in Forza 2.

 

[McLaren]

GT is featureless. I do not count having xxx number of cars and tracks a feature. It is part of the genre of car sandbox games.

So, bragging about numbers only makes Forza look good, but when we talk about GT's numbers, it's nothing special?

You tool.

Features are online lobbies.
Auction houses.
Livery editing.
Voice.
etc etc.
GT as a series has nothing which I would call a feature.

B-Spec, License Tests, Used Car Lots, are all features, regardless of what you call a feature.

Also, do I own a PS3? No, I would not wa... If you want to continue that do so im PM's

Have I played GT5? Yes, I played it using a mates PS3 (which had atleast 1/4 inch of dust on it).

This could almost be taken as a half reasonable post til' this section, which just shows you have even less credibility (not that you had any at all after your logic that higher physics numbers means more realism).

Top Gear as a show is fine, I have seasons 1 through 10 on my computers HD right now (although I cannot watch the jag diesel on the nurburgring episode because some glitch) but it doesn't change my mind on how bad a driver clarkson is.

If he's that bad, why don't you take over? Oh that's right, because you're even worse.

I find it very lucky you're still here. You'd have been gone before you gotten halfway through this debate at other forums.

 

[sejtur]

To Bogie19th:
Okay, fair enough.

I expect the physics of GT5 to be almost thesame as GT5 Spec III, but I could be wrong.

About the speed feeling; I think it's alright in GT5P. If you're watching F1, and you see some onboards, it sometimes doesn't even look near the speeds that they're really doing. Unless they get to Monte Carlo, which has everything very close to the track, thus you have more feel of speed. In GT5P, atleast I also have that with even going to the london track with for example a Ferrari. It's too bad that there is no G-Force simulator, because only then you get the real feel of speed.

I saw a vid of Forza 2 on the nurburgring, and it didn't look that speedy either. It just depends on the track you race on I think, and ofcourse the vehicle.

 

[Zer0]

GT5p seems kinda slow moving (granted I am in C class right now), but I don't see the sense of speed I see with F2.

There is something wrong with Forza's tracks scales, read this:

A look at the speeds in the game soon shows why for GT4. In real life the Civic Type R hits 131mph on the way to Schwedenkreuz and takes Bergwerk at 55mph. Even I can hit 139mph and 63mph respectively in the game.

However in Forza I can hit 142mph on the way to Schwedenkreuz and no less than 69mph through Bergwerk! Then why are the laptimes so much slower than real life??? The answer is that the track might be accurate in terms of corners and straights etc but the scale is wrong and it is (literally) miles too long. By driving a car round at a constant speed (manual gears, 2nd gear on the limiter) you soon find out that it is over 17 miles long instead of the 13.04 that the game claims! Repeat the same test in GT4 and the circuit length is spot on.

http://www.seight.com/ring-sims.html

 

[Bogie 19th]

I expect the physics of GT5 to be almost thesame as GT5 Spec III, but I could be wrong.

I suspect GT5 will be better. As we know, GT5p doesn't have damage, right? But GT5 might. Let's say that it does. A very tiny example would be rear spoilers and front air dams that get torn off in an accident. In Forza 2, if you lose the back spoiler, you have less downforce on the back end (and front end if you lose the front spoiler/dam). This makes your car slower at top speeds, more floaty at high speeds, and you lose some cornering grip.

GT5p doesn't have that physic right now. But you know that if we get damage in GT5, we will get that added physic. I am confident that GT5 will offer additional physics such as that.

 

[McLaren]

There is something wrong with Forza's tracks scales, read this:

http://www.seight.com/ring-sims.html

In the case of Forza 2's 'Ring, the whole course itself is not a good representative at all of the real track.

 

[Joey D]

Wasn't Forza 2's Ring reworked to accommodate online racing or something? I know I remember reading in a blog post or something about why it was off.

 

[McLaren]

Wasn't Forza 2's Ring reworked to accommodate online racing or something? I know I remember reading in a blog post or something about why it was off.

That's supposed to be why it was widened, but the track was still too far off & none of the curves ever flowed like they do in real life. There's not to mention the 4-foot high rumble strips that were also very bizarre.

 

[sejtur]

I suspect GT5 will be better. As we know, GT5p doesn't have damage, right? But GT5 might. Let's say that it does. A very tiny example would be rear spoilers and front air dams that get torn off in an accident. In Forza 2, if you lose the back spoiler, you have less downforce on the back end (and front end if you lose the front spoiler/dam). This makes your car slower at top speeds, more floaty at high speeds, and you lose some cornering grip.

GT5p doesn't have that physic right now. But you know that if we get damage in GT5, we will get that added physic. I am confident that GT5 will offer additional physics such as that.

Uh yes ofcourse, didn't really think about that but I was just thinking about basic driving physics, without anything damaged.

 

[Joey D]

That's supposed to be why it was widened, but the track was still too far off & none of the curves ever flowed like they do in real life. There's not to mention the 4-foot high rumble strips that were also very bizarre.

I don't know, I never really liked playing the Ring in Forza or GT4 for that matter (it felt overly narrow). It's hard to really know though since I've never driven it.