- 3,587
Okay going to edit the above so give me a sec
Okay edited.
Okay edited.
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Current PSN outage: Don't abuse or we lose this thread.
- Thread starter BWX
- 2,574 comments
- 184,257 views
- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
No matter how you define it, it is not a monopoly by definition. It is an exclusive system, exclusive because it is using hardware built to a specific specification for specific purposes. The same reasons why you are buying a game console to begin with are what make them have to use an exclusive system built specifically for them. It is not a monopoly, it is the nature of the product.
You don't nor did you ever have to support them to play games.
Still not sure why you are disgusted with them. Read the Kotaku article I posted earlier. An expert says it could happen to anyone, and happens daily. This one just happens to involve a company and industry the media has an obsession with.
First off, that is only snippity if it is a direct answer to a question. As it was in a paragraph giving more information than was requested, that was their way of saying they understood that the delay in notifying customers of the information that was taken could be interpreted to be in violation of the law. This is actually a very professionally written letter that looks as if it were gone over by about a dozen lawyers. Keep in mind that in Japanese culture they do show more humility, so saying of course in that way is a way of saying "yes I understand my obligation." Cultural difference must be taken into consideration when dealing with international business, a lesson I am having to learn in my current job.
That said, they did not say they ignored any one law, but in order to work within the framework of all the laws they are covered under they could not release information to customers regarding their personal information being stolen until they had confirmation that what they reported was taken. They weren't compromising, they were acting in a way to follow all relevant regulations.
How do you reach your speculation? Their own internal investigation isn't complete, they found further breaches a week after they began investigating, and they aren't finished. Divulging anything now could be incorrect, harm their investigation, harm any legal investigation, and possibly lead to a bunch of copycats.
Keyser Soze?
EDIT: Just saw this bit added.
That should be their top priority. That is the number one motivation to keep a company honest. That is why any company does anything they do, including philanthropy. I trust a profiit-driven company motivated by the desire to have me want to shop at their store far more than one that will work with the government to bring about change to improve the world.
Where are they trying to sweeten you up? It is all basically PR and legal statements. The only persona I see is that of a victim, which they are.
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- 3,587
Right, okay this is the last argument on this subject for me. I think I'm just a little testy because PSN has remained down. I'll try to respond best I can.
I'm using the term monopoly much more loosely than its specific business practice definition, and the one you're probably referring to. I mean they "monopolize" such as "To dominate by excluding others" (dictionary definition). They control the manufacture of their system and make it all but useless to upgrade or alter the system's components. I doubt you could even swap a dead harddrive without paying Sony an arm and a leg by shipping the system out to their headquarters. I'm just saying you have more choices as a consumer with PC gaming. With a PS3 you're stuck with however Sony chooses to run their business.
To play Gran Turismo, I have to support Sony even though Sony didn't create the game. Meaning I have to purchase their system, helping fund their operations, even if those operations include not encrypting the sensitive info I'm supposed to trust them with, and putting out some bogus "someone crashed PSN with a PSMove" message instead of just telling us right away they'd been breached.
I also see your bit about international culture and business practice, which makes sense and I'm willing to concede that point to you. I may have misread based on this. The first read-through it sounded a lot more on the defense/a bit snotty. My speculation is just based on the fact that they didn't upgrade their firmware prior to this attack nor would they have, meaning that makes them look bad in the public eye, and I feel they're not necessarily legally obligated to be as quiet as they have been for as long as they have. I just don't think they're putting the customer first. I see why you would trust a company driven by profits, however profitability doesn't prevent a company from doing something less than ideal to its customers if they don't know about it and it never comes to light. I will read through the article you posted, and I understand it isn't sony's fault they were hacked. But from what I've heard their security was particularly lax by comparison to others which encrypt personal data etc. I've heard Sony encrypts credit card data but I've also heard they didn't. I don't know which is true but I am just trying to say I don't see them as being forthcoming about the whole thing except out of sudden obligation.
But like I said I don't want to continue to inundate the thread so I admit I don't have evidence for my beliefs except based on my opinion of their actions so far, and it's all speculation. I'll take my response off the air.
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- 316
- swansea ma.
- gravydavy35
I was adding up how much money i have in sony gear,and it has made me ill.I have like 12,000 dollars maybe more,and I don,t know what makes me so loyal to the brand.
- 3,984
- Frankfurt am Main
- GTP_mcfizzle
- LotsaMcfizzle
I am confused by this statement and maybe I am missing something but you can upgrade hard drives in the PS3 on your own and it doesn't break the warranty of the system. You can use any brand hard drive that meets the size requirements. That isn't true of their main competitor though. And if you are going to send something to them for repair, of course they are going to charge you. Try taking your system to a local gaming shop for repair and see if they do it for free. Again, maybe I misunderstood and if I did I apologize ahead of time.
- 1,872
- Bogotá
- GTP_Suitan (w/ an i), SultanRS4
Can anybody confirm the Japanese PSN is up?
It's getting frustrating to go two weeks without the service remotely functional. And Sony has, in my opinion, kept it's users in the dark as most of the "updates" they have posted do not have a specific date. Instead, they simply post the vaguest of time frames and some people (including me, sadly) got their hopes up when rumors started going that Japan had PSN again.
It's getting frustrating to go two weeks without the service remotely functional. And Sony has, in my opinion, kept it's users in the dark as most of the "updates" they have posted do not have a specific date. Instead, they simply post the vaguest of time frames and some people (including me, sadly) got their hopes up when rumors started going that Japan had PSN again.
- 1,477
- New York, U.S.A
- XxOnLySBz4mExX
The link is provided in the PS Blog May 4th update.
arora
(Banned)
- 4,098
http://www.flickr.com/photos/playstationblog/sets/72157626521862165/
I wasn't going to post this but just some of my perspective on business in general and Sony....
In the U.S. it's become some sort of cultural phenomenon or almost religion to hate big business despite all the greatness it provides. Failure is also not tolerated by these people which is stupid because without failure there cannot be success in growth. Always biting the hand that feeds them I say. Oh and also expected perfection of products to 100% of all the populations opinions desires and needs.
First off, large corporations will always protect their best interest, that is a no brainer but not necessarily a bad thing. Imagine, sometimes what is in their best interest is also what is in your best interest, after all, you are the consumer so without you they would not exist. Also, over regulation or exaggerated law suits etc can bring a large corporation down, who wants that? If Sony dies you will not get what you want at all. It could be that xbox would be next and so on leaving you with no gaming. A less drastic scenario could be cost to consumers being driven too high deeming the product useless. There is a balance to be found and the scales are usually teetering up and down.
Secondly, most large corporations do not hate the governments, in many cases they enjoy a symbiotic type relationship. I've experienced this first hand on a small scale with state agencies. A business I used to run was regulated by the dept of agriculture and being accredited, trained, etc by them was a large benefit to me. It gave me an advantage in bidding processes as well as protection from litigations as 2 examples. The benefit to them was revenue and the benefit to the public was safety and fairness.
Sony has failed and is learning from that, lets see how they do moving forward. Give them more time and I'm sure they will disclose all they can to the powers that be(more then 5 days notice to apear while they still don't know what happened) and I think they will show themselves as a responsible caring company who will continue growing on the international stage.
My personel gripes with Sony in reguards to gaming are the reliablility issues with the ps3, the root key problem, in general the way they go about copy right protection. I am also not happy in general(not specific to Sony) about unfinished games being released and patched a million times and dlc nickle and diming.
Side note; My 1st gen ps3 died, I'm not as enthused with gt5 as I was with earlier installments, I'm in no hurry to see psn back up and running nor in a hurry to buy another ps3.
- 147
- leadpaint
Here is the link.
Letter to the U.S. House of Representatives
Well written piece. My first $600 fat 80gig died too, in 13 months.
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- 564
- new mexico
- fissionproject
this is just.....harsh
We discovered that the intruders had planted a file on one of our Sony Online Entertainment servers named Anonymous with the words We are Legion.
We discovered that the intruders had planted a file on one of our Sony Online Entertainment servers named Anonymous with the words We are Legion.
Where's your source?
If that really happened then my 🤬 hats off to them. They warned and warned Sony that a big attack would happen and Sony shrugged it off. If a file was left with this name then that's a big win for Anonymous.
They have been touted as 15 year old's launching Botnet DDOS attacks, if this really was the case this shows while majority of members are under 25 they have shown to have some real capability ( DDOS doesn't require capability )
- Or maybe you should understand what a DOS attack is before you enlighten us with that nonsense. DDOS which is just flooding a server with so many packets it can't handle it and crashes, any one of the 9000+ people that participated that day had nothing to do with the actual intrusion.
That's why Anonymous is so effective, it's not just 2 or 3 consumer's writing a letter of complaint , as the Mantra states " We are legion " they have thousands upon thousands of willing participants . It's the start of the consumer revolution.
The DOS attack being regarded as the main threat whilst being a cover for the actual operation is just plain clever, if i had participated in a botnet that ultimately in the end brought down Sony for over a week i'd be even happier knowing that.
.There is nothing illegal about a DOS or DDOS attack - yes they are slightly different. There is plenty illegal about theft of information though - but Anonymous whilst some of you perceive them to be - they aren't stupid, they will not un-neccesarily attract the attention of the F.B.I , there isn't going to be any stolen credit card's used or any of that other hysteria you created amongst your internal dialogue.
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- 147
- leadpaint
I have seen stories now on the web stating:
"Sony confirms that Anonymous hacked the PSN"
When in fact the file was found on the SOE servers as your quote states. I have a feeling that the file they found is "Anonymous.txt" which contains the words "We are Legion" and nothing more. But that's just my guess.
In other news, an article has surfaced on PC world about the PSN breach.
PSN Breach: Sophisticated Attack or Insecure Network
____________________________________________
"All of your data are belonging to us, until we lost it."
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arora
(Banned)
- 4,098
Probably because of the ddos on the 7th, they did take credit for it.
That quote came from Sony directly didn't it? Maybe it was not a savy representative
. . . . EDITThanks
And after 13 months you got a different referb from Sony or had the ps3 reballed or bought a new one? That bothers me 👎
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- 147
- leadpaint
It was a sad day. I was playing FarCry 2. I put it back in its box, the disk still inside, the YLOD. Later I purchased a slim model. One day I'll send the fat off for repair. A backup PS3 is good to have.
Timeline of Sony data theft:
# April 4 (Monday) - Hacker group Anonymous targets Sony for denial of service attacks, in retaliation for Sony legal action against George Hotz (aka "GeoHot") and Graf_Chokolo
# April 7 (Thursday) - Anonymous halts attacks, apologizes for inconveniencing users, and acknowledges diverse points of view within hacker group
# April 17-19 (Sunday-Tuesday) - PlayStation Network and Sony Online Entertainment hacked, user data stolen
# April 19 (Tuesday, 4:15 pm PDT) - Sony Network Entertainment America network team notices unauthorized activity due to unscheduled server reboots; team begins running logs to analyze data
# April 20 (Wednesday, early afternoon) - Sony forms larger team to assist the investigation; network team discovers unauthorized intrusion and that unknown data had been transferred from the PlayStation Network; network team shuts down PSN; Sony retains a security and forensic consulting firm to assist in the investigation; Sony begins mirroring suspected servers
# April 21 (Thursday) - Sony retains a second security and forensic consulting firm; Sony issues a statement suggesting the network could be down for "a day or two"
# April 22 (Friday) - Sony Computer Entertainment America general counsel provides FBI with information about the intrusion; network team finishes mirroring 9 of the 10 suspected servers; Sony issues a statement admitting an "external intrusion"
# April 23 (Saturday) - Network teams determine that sophisticated hackers deleted log files to hide activity within the network; Sony issues a statement regarding re-building the network infrastructure for better security
# April 24 (Sunday) - Sony decides to retain a third forensic team to help determine the scope of the breach
# April 25 (Monday) - Forensic teams are able to determine that user data had been stolen, but could not rule out whether credit card information had been accessed
# April 26 (Tuesday) - Sony notifies public of data intrusion; Sony also notifies regulatory authorities in New Jersey, Maryland, and New Hampshire;
# April 27 (Wednesday) - Sony meets with FBI regarding data intrusion; Sony notifies the regulatory authorities in Hawaii, Louisiana, Maine, Massachusetts, Missouri, New York, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Puerto Rico; Sony tells SOE users that their databases and servers are kept separate, and therefore safe
# April 28 (Thursday) - Hacker groups claim to be selling credit card data; security analysts confirm the discussions are taking place, but cannot confirm the legitimacy of the list; one hacker claims to have tried selling to Sony, but Sony denies any knowledge of such a sale
# April 30 (Saturday) - Sony holds a press conference in Tokyo, apologizing for the data theft and detailing the PSN Welcome Back program; Sony says that some services will resume in the coming week
# May 1 (Sunday, afternoon) - Sony detects intrusion into Sony Online Entertainment, including a file titled "Anonymous" that reads "We are Legion"
# May 2 (Monday, morning) Sony Online Entertainment servers taken offline, with a brief statement, "we have discovered an issue that warrants enough concern for us to take the service down effective immediately."
# May 2 (Monday) - Sony receives Congressional inquiry; Sony issues a statement that 12,700 credit cards and 24.6 million accounts were compromised in SOE data theft
# May 4 (Wednesday) - Sony's Kaz Hirai responds to Congressional inquiry, implicating Anonymous Group
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- 126
Sorry in advance for this long post on my disgust with people who don’t understand a market driven society, and think they have the right to not pay their way, which is the bases of these attacks in the first place.
There are plenty of naive people around the world who get sucked in and brain washed into thinking they are doing what’s right for a cause, but the reality in this case is they are so wrong. You say it’s not illegal to bring a net work down but do you think it is really justified? This is a game console and should be left alone from computer hackers who think their job is to hack our console so we can get stuff for free and think they are doing all game players a favour. The reality is if we start to get all our stuff for free do you think the console and game creators are going to do their brilliant job for no pay, no way, its not sustainable, new game and console development will cease. Think ahead you young brats, I know it’s hard for you to see because you are so young naive and can’t see the big picture and too stubborn to even look. Try to grow a broader brain not just follow an ideology, each individual think for your self for a change. Look at all the problems in the world and you will see the same trend, you’ll find one individual who makes up a cause and will find Young Naive individuals who will following blindly with no regard for your fellow human being and what’s right for the future of the very cause they think they are fighting for. If you don’t want game console and games in the future you are on the right track to achieving this by following these hackers but don’t come on here thinking you got support from people here who just wont to play new and evolving games and glad to pay for them because we see we have to in a capitalistic society.
You discustingly call it a "consumer revolution" but it is against all that is a competition driven consumer society, x-Box, Pc and Ps3 are competing for our hard earned dollar and offer, at a reasonable competitive price, great games and machines to run em on, wake up and smell the roses you are so confused about what you are really fighting for guys and actually destroying it by lessening the competition.
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Its about " the free flow of information " It should NOT be illegal to post a " how to " video on the internet. Information is free and everyone has a right to it and SHOULD be protected.
No one should have the right to censor information - if you believe this, i couldn't care less about trying to convince you otherwise.
If governments or company's control information, then they control you - think about it ?
Your ignorant if you think this is all about hacking a PS3, the issue is deeper.This is about human rights and the free flow of information.They not only removed the information they demanded to know the IP of all who viewed the information. This is not acceptable.
The internet is one of the last bastion's of free flow of information, through the internet everyone in the world has access to information, when we information we are strong and can make a difference.
This is why the Government is moving on Wikleaks, this is what they fear ,they fear our power when we unite.
Btw. I have no intention of ever jailbreaking a PS3 or hacking or whatever they do to it. I got current firmware and love online gaming as much as the next person. I'm gutted about PSN being down, but for all the bad press this has got Sony it was worth it - They tried to censor information, that is not acceptable.
You say i blindly follow an idealogy but in fact it's just that i'm actually open-minded enough to see another person's POV.
Any may i ask WTF do you care if a few people hack it and get stuff for free? Million's of people are still going to do the right thing and buy console's,buy games,get raped for DLC, buy accessories. Your a bit naive if you think console games are going to die out and not be profitable because a few people are jailbreaking them jesus christ.
This might explain it a bit more in-depth for you exactly why they attacked the PSN and who they are and what they do.Most of you would not have seen this.
No one should have the right to censor information - if you believe this, i couldn't care less about trying to convince you otherwise.
If governments or company's control information, then they control you - think about it ?
Your ignorant if you think this is all about hacking a PS3, the issue is deeper.This is about human rights and the free flow of information.They not only removed the information they demanded to know the IP of all who viewed the information. This is not acceptable.
The internet is one of the last bastion's of free flow of information, through the internet everyone in the world has access to information, when we information we are strong and can make a difference.
This is why the Government is moving on Wikleaks, this is what they fear ,they fear our power when we unite.
Btw. I have no intention of ever jailbreaking a PS3 or hacking or whatever they do to it. I got current firmware and love online gaming as much as the next person. I'm gutted about PSN being down, but for all the bad press this has got Sony it was worth it - They tried to censor information, that is not acceptable.
You say i blindly follow an idealogy but in fact it's just that i'm actually open-minded enough to see another person's POV.
Any may i ask WTF do you care if a few people hack it and get stuff for free? Million's of people are still going to do the right thing and buy console's,buy games,get raped for DLC, buy accessories. Your a bit naive if you think console games are going to die out and not be profitable because a few people are jailbreaking them jesus christ.
This might explain it a bit more in-depth for you exactly why they attacked the PSN and who they are and what they do.Most of you would not have seen this.
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arora
(Banned)
- 4,098
Are you talking about a vid Geo Hot posted? I've not seen it so I don't know if it was simply showing how to modify the ps3 physically or what.
I don't think you are entirely correct about the legality though, surely it is illegal to make a "how to vid" if on that vid you are commetting a crime? As in it would be legal to show a vid on how to murder if it showed a mock murder performed on a dummy rather then a live person who died?
EDIT: oops dp
Yes it showed his discovery on how to physically modify it, it's illegal to grow Marijuana in USA so why can you view thousands of " How to Grow " Video's ..... Throw's your murder theory out the window
If you take that information and then you grow when you know it's illegal well that's your fault. All geohot did was provide that information - It was up to you whether you used it but in no way shape or form should that information ever be censored
Because there is no company with millions asking for the information to be censored. Do you follow me? I don't know if that was the best example.
- 23,800
- Philippines
Sony is a soul-less, money driven monopoly? Humph. Not any more than Nintendo, Apple or Microsoft, who also have their own rafts of product-exclusive content.
At least Sony doesn't charge for the use of PSN services.
Theft is theft. Whether it's done to a huge multinational corporation or a small farmer working two acres with a mule.
Nobody is forcing anybody to buy content. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy PS3s. While I quite agree that you should have free reign to do what you want with what you buy with your money, the selfish self-entitlement implicit in the idea that you shouldn't have to pay for content that people have spent time and money developing doesn't sit well here on a forum board that specifically prohibits discussion of piracy.
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The idea that Sony's clampdown and legal maneuvering against George Holtz, to protect their own rights under law justifies someone coming in and vandalizing and destroying a service that they provide to their customers for free (say... free parking outside a Walmart store) is laughable. Last I looked, Robin Hood didn't hold-up commoners or tear up the king's highway leading to the marketplace simply to spite the crown.
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Yes, we are free to publish information for public consumption. But the PS3 root key was coded by and is property of Sony. In other words, you are giving people something for free that someone else spent millions of dollars developing. Not that I am naive enough to believe that such things could be kept secret forever, but Sony has a right to protect their investments.
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It's this kind of mindless feeling of entitlement that rankles me about Anon. Just because you can use the decoder ring, you feel that you're entitled to steal someone else's work? Right.
Really, would you feel the same if it were a starving indie music artist and someone had just released their entire catalog for download on the internet? This is less "Ve haf ways to keep joo quiet" and more like: "Dude! You stole my code!!!"
At least Sony doesn't charge for the use of PSN services.
Theft is theft. Whether it's done to a huge multinational corporation or a small farmer working two acres with a mule.
Nobody is forcing anybody to buy content. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy PS3s. While I quite agree that you should have free reign to do what you want with what you buy with your money, the selfish self-entitlement implicit in the idea that you shouldn't have to pay for content that people have spent time and money developing doesn't sit well here on a forum board that specifically prohibits discussion of piracy.
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The idea that Sony's clampdown and legal maneuvering against George Holtz, to protect their own rights under law justifies someone coming in and vandalizing and destroying a service that they provide to their customers for free (say... free parking outside a Walmart store) is laughable. Last I looked, Robin Hood didn't hold-up commoners or tear up the king's highway leading to the marketplace simply to spite the crown.
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Yes, we are free to publish information for public consumption. But the PS3 root key was coded by and is property of Sony. In other words, you are giving people something for free that someone else spent millions of dollars developing. Not that I am naive enough to believe that such things could be kept secret forever, but Sony has a right to protect their investments.
-
It's this kind of mindless feeling of entitlement that rankles me about Anon. Just because you can use the decoder ring, you feel that you're entitled to steal someone else's work? Right.
Really, would you feel the same if it were a starving indie music artist and someone had just released their entire catalog for download on the internet? This is less "Ve haf ways to keep joo quiet" and more like: "Dude! You stole my code!!!"
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- 126
You wont try to convince me Im wrong because you dont have the argument to do it, because you are wrong.
Its all about what that information is to be used for; there is a difference between freedom of speech and inciting others to do wrong. In an attempt to try and open your eyes to what you just said may i put it this way? If I posted something (the way you say i should be able too in the name of free speach) that told people how to find where you live and how to steal all your stuff you use to make a living, or should I say your Dad, whould that be ok? You now have no income and the service you provided to the community will be gone, your pee'd off the people who like your service are pee'd off, just think of all the consequences of any action and not just the ones that suit your narrow perception of what you whould like it to be. You are one of the naive young brats i was talking about when i said "Think ahead you young brats, I know its hard for you to see because you are so young and naive and cant see the big picture and too stubborn to even look." You are blinded by an ideology and won't listen to others except the ones controlling you right now, one day maybe but right now you are not an individual you are the puppet being controlled and don't realise the ones you think are controlling you are the ones trying to protect you and our democratic society.
Enough on the ones who caused this, feel free to reply and look a fool but lets get this post back on topic.
Hope its back today.
I sick of these hacks just want to play.
Thats all i guna say Hey! Hey! Hey!
- 3,915
- California
- gdwest1
The Anon video.... Eerie much? Feels very propagandized, but still brings decent points.
Also, who is to say that Anonymous actually stole the information, but rather they did the Denial of service attack, someone NOT ASSOCIATED with Anonymous decided to capitalize on the opening?
On the other hand, if Anonymous DID take the information, I highly doubt they would use it maliciously. It wouldnt surprise me if they requested the info from the server, and then deleted it from their own computers. Simply a "Hey, look what we can do, cut the crap" statement. Also, if Anon did take the info, they TOLD Sony that something big was up, and they really didn't seem worried.
Also, who is to say that Anonymous actually stole the information, but rather they did the Denial of service attack, someone NOT ASSOCIATED with Anonymous decided to capitalize on the opening?
On the other hand, if Anonymous DID take the information, I highly doubt they would use it maliciously. It wouldnt surprise me if they requested the info from the server, and then deleted it from their own computers. Simply a "Hey, look what we can do, cut the crap" statement. Also, if Anon did take the info, they TOLD Sony that something big was up, and they really didn't seem worried.
- 2,183
- Houston, TX
- Rosstickles
Damn. Lock this garbage up. Nothing but a bunch of people making pointless arguments to grow their e-penis thinking they're the smartest person on the forum and that their opinion is the only one.
- 2,484
- oshkosh/WI
- MrWilso92
Well written piece. My first $600 fat 80gig died too, in 13 months.
[/QUOTE]
does my fat 80gig dated march 2007 count as 1st gen?
does my fat 80gig dated march 2007 count as 1st gen?
Um yes they do have a right to protect it they coded it, they tried and failed, and then succeded again, for now. Once that information is discovered are you trying to tell me i can't share my own information that i have learned either with a friend or via the internet? That's ridiculous think about it?
