Current PSN outage: Don't abuse or we lose this thread.

[arora]

So if the video isn't illegal why has it been removed from all existence?

YT is not required by any law to keep vids up on it's site is it? or is it? Maybe you could test your theory by posting his vid on a different medium.

 

[sk0pe]

YT is not required by any law to keep vids up on it's site is it? or is it? Maybe you could test your theory by posting his vid on a different medium.

LOL no no no no. I won't be posting that video. Try and search it. You will not find it anywhere. I believe after that case there was some settlement about it not being posted anywhere and people had to take it down, if not big trouble etc. This is slightly speculation as i would have to look up the exact in's and out's so don't quote me on it.

Eg. The censorship of information.

Btw for others who are mis-informed. Geohotz rootkey never ever produced a code to play pirated games, he was very specific about that.

 

[Starfirebird]

Ok then, enough of this bickering already.

Do you guys think we might be able to change our passwords tomorrow?I seen earlier someone posted that the EU could change passwords tonight?

If that is true maybe that's good news that we will be up and running this weekend.*fingers crossed*

 

[hawkeye122]

Um yes they do have a right to protect it, they tried and failed. Once that information is discovered are you trying to tell me i can't share my own information that i have learned? That's ridiculous think about it?

I'll just say first i have NO tolerance for piracy, and i haven't hacked my PS3 in any way

I agree. Simply coding something doesnt make it your property. That is to say if I find out the code on MS Word, and manage to make my own font, I am thus stealing from Microsoft?

I purchased my PS3. It belongs to me, everything on it. When I buy a computer, and change the simulation parameters of Flight Sim X, MS doesn't bust my door in saying i've "Stolen" something. I paid for software. I didn't like part of it, so I change it. It doesn't steal things from people, it does nothing wrong.

Assume i buy an RX-8. What if I dont want it to have a rotary, but the Straight 6 out of an older M3? "But Mazda put these special bolts that can't be undone with regular tools". Good show. So, I manage to undo the bolts with "Witchcraft" and put my engine that I prefer on it. Sweet, awesome car. Ill post how to do it on Youtube, in case someone else doesnt like rotary engines. Everyone who watches STILL has to buy an RX-8 to carry out the task, so it doesnt really hurt Mazda's sales. Heck, now that people know you can change your Mazda engine, maybe they'll sell more!

Its a rather long metaphor, I know, but thats the way I see it. My PS3 belongs to me. If I dont use PSN (Again, I DO use PSN, and i DO NOT have Custom firmware or anything that people see as "Bad") there should be no question as to whether or not i can do it.

 

[hawkeye122]

Also, sorry for the Double post, but my original PS3 died... im using my new one... how can i change my password then?!

 

[arora]

LOL no no no no. I won't be posting that video. Try and search it. You will not find it anywhere. I believe after that case there was some settlement about it not being posted anywhere and people had to take it down, if not big trouble etc. This is slightly speculation as i would have to look up the exact in's and out's so don't quote me on it.

Eg. The censorship of information.

O.K. not to hold you to any quote but he could have agreed not to post it to avoid prosicution sure, but you are claiming the vid is legal and is being censored by Sony? the world governments, or what is the thought?

I'm not being a Jerk or fighting with skOpe so alot of the comments on here are incorrect imo. It's a conversation and it does relate to the psn being brought down imo.

 

[niky]

Um yes they do have a right to protect it they coded it, they tried and failed, and then succeded again, for now. Once that information is discovered are you trying to tell me i can't share my own information that i have learned either with a friend or via the internet? That's ridiculous think about it?

You've designed an electronic lock system for houses. All the locks are pre-coded from the factory, but there's a code that allows you to change the lock combination at home... on every single lock made.

Now someone has found that code. To help out his fellow lock-users, he posts it online, where everyone can see it, including those who don't have the locks but may want to defeat them.

Kinda different that way, isn't it?

-

I'm not going to argue about the legality of what GeoHot did... because I'm of two minds about it, and the law is unclear about it, too.

But of what Anon did in response to Sony's legal maneuvers? Maneuvers which, in my opinion, they had every right to try, even if I believe they would have lost? I have no doubts. It's sticking it to "the people" to spite "the man".

Coming from a fairly leftist University (one of my former classmates became a Congressman through the Communist party), I've seen enough "demonstrations" to know that that type of ideological idiot doesn't care which innocent bystanders get hurt, just as long as they get their point across.

"Free information" sounds like a great ideal. But what about those who make their living off of that information? While Anon and their ilk have the luxury of living in a world without consequences, there are those of us in the trenches who stand to lose a lot due to what they've done... which is nothing short of an actual terrorist attack.

 

[sk0pe]

1) It's not bickering it's just rational friendly debate about a current issue that is affecting us all.
2)

O.K. not to hold you to any quote but he could have agreed not to post it to avoid prosicution sure, but you are claiming the vid is legal and is being censored by Sony? the world governments, or what is the thought?

- Just checked , yes the video cannot be posted anywhere or you will be sued in the same fashion as Geohotz.
3) Geohotz thought he would win the case because his code did not allow the play of pirated games.

I'll just say first i have NO tolerance for piracy, and i haven't hacked my PS3 in any way

I agree. Simply coding something doesnt make it your property. That is to say if I find out the code on MS Word, and manage to make my own font, I am thus stealing from Microsoft?

I purchased my PS3. It belongs to me, everything on it. When I buy a computer, and change the simulation parameters of Flight Sim X, MS doesn't bust my door in saying i've "Stolen" something. I paid for software. I didn't like part of it, so I change it. It doesn't steal things from people, it does nothing wrong.

Assume i buy an RX-8. What if I dont want it to have a rotary, but the Straight 6 out of an older M3? "But Mazda put these special bolts that can't be undone with regular tools". Good show. So, I manage to undo the bolts with "Witchcraft" and put my engine that I prefer on it. Sweet, awesome car. Ill post how to do it on Youtube, in case someone else doesnt like rotary engines. Everyone who watches STILL has to buy an RX-8 to carry out the task, so it doesnt really hurt Mazda's sales. Heck, now that people know you can change your Mazda engine, maybe they'll sell more!

Its a rather long metaphor, I know, but thats the way I see it. My PS3 belongs to me. If I dont use PSN (Again, I DO use PSN, and i DO NOT have Custom firmware or anything that people see as "Bad") there should be no question as to whether or not i can do it.

- Oh lord have mercy, i knew there was other logical thinker's out there somewhere.

This should be a good informative video from the man of the moment Geohotz.
Interview starts at .40sec



This second video is the most current and more informative of the two.


Listen " Sony has brought no evidence to suggest that George Hotz intended to violate their copyrights, all he wanted to was use homebrew software to run Linux etc. "

 

[AUS_Topgear]

Um yes they do have a right to protect it they coded it, they tried and failed, and then succeded again, for now. Once that information is discovered are you trying to tell me i can't share my own information that i have learned either with a friend or via the internet? That's ridiculous think about it?

No its not, you think you have rights and the ones you are affecting don't thats what's rediculous, you think about it you selfish kid.

 

[arora]

1) It's not bickering it's just rational friendly debate about a current issue that is affecting us all.
2) - Just checked , yes the video cannot be posted anywhere or you will be sued in the same fashion as Geohotz.
3) Geohotz thought he would win the case because his code did not allow the play of pirated games.

O.K. so everyone is simply afraid of a civil suit filed against them by Sony? Strong armed so to speak. There is a large difference between a civil suit and a criminal suit, this is not supression of freedom of speech, this is just cowardness or more likey a lack of care of what is deemed unimportant.

 

[sk0pe]

You've designed an electronic lock system for houses. All the locks are pre-coded from the factory, but there's a code that allows you to change the lock combination at home... on every single lock made.

Now someone has found that code. To help out his fellow lock-users, he posts it online, where everyone can see it, including those who don't have the locks but may want to defeat them.

Kinda different that way, isn't it?

-

I'm not going to argue about the legality of what GeoHot did... because I'm of two minds about it, and the law is unclear about it, too.

But of what Anon did in response to Sony's legal maneuvers? Maneuvers which, in my opinion, they had every right to try, even if I believe they would have lost? I have no doubts. It's sticking it to "the people" to spite "the man".

Coming from a fairly leftist University (one of my former classmates became a Congressman through the Communist party), I've seen enough "demonstrations" to know that that type of ideological idiot doesn't care which innocent bystanders get hurt, just as long as they get their point across.

"Free information" sounds like a great ideal. But what about those who make their living off of that information? While Anon and their ilk have the luxury of living in a world without consequences, there are those of us in the trenches who stand to lose a lot due to what they've done... which is nothing short of an actual terrorist attack.

I'm sorry what have you lost ? Anon didn't bring down the PSN, Sony turned off the PSN due to an external breach, a better safe than sorry measure

I take your point about the electronic lock but i don't think that would be illegal either, it's not illegal to share that information once you've learned it as far as im aware?
And there comes a point in time where you have to say we are willing to go without the PSN for a few days for a cause. It's not like you can't use your PS3 if your desperate to play games.
Btw. I'm just asking questions not trying to troll you

Whilst we might not want to use the Other OS feature that was sold with and then removed from the PS3, there is people out there who did - just like how we bought it expecting to be able to use PSN. Lets not be selfish and put ourselves in their shoes .

 

[sk0pe]

No its not, you think you have rights and the ones you are affecting don't thats what's rediculous, you think about it you selfish kid.

I'm sorry who is it affecting if 5% of people are using Linux or Other OS or an even smaller percentage playing pirated games.?
Who does it affect? You?

Edit: Urgh double post. Apologies.

 

[AUS_Topgear]

I'll just say first i have NO tolerance for piracy, and i haven't hacked my PS3 in any way

I agree. Simply coding something doesnt make it your property. That is to say if I find out the code on MS Word, and manage to make my own font, I am thus stealing from Microsoft?

I purchased my PS3. It belongs to me, everything on it. When I buy a computer, and change the simulation parameters of Flight Sim X, MS doesn't bust my door in saying i've "Stolen" something. I paid for software. I didn't like part of it, so I change it. It doesn't steal things from people, it does nothing wrong.

Assume i buy an RX-8. What if I dont want it to have a rotary, but the Straight 6 out of an older M3? "But Mazda put these special bolts that can't be undone with regular tools". Good show. So, I manage to undo the bolts with "Witchcraft" and put my engine that I prefer on it. Sweet, awesome car. Ill post how to do it on Youtube, in case someone else doesnt like rotary engines. Everyone who watches STILL has to buy an RX-8 to carry out the task, so it doesnt really hurt Mazda's sales. Heck, now that people know you can change your Mazda engine, maybe they'll sell more!

Its a rather long metaphor, I know, but thats the way I see it. My PS3 belongs to me. If I dont use PSN (Again, I DO use PSN, and i DO NOT have Custom firmware or anything that people see as "Bad") there should be no question as to whether or not i can do it.

Yer good metaphor m8 but still off the point a little, in this case you bought the Mazda (PS3) but you are not modifying the motor you are modifying the identification or numberplates so you can now get fuel from any supplier to run in it for free, Mazda will still sell their car but eventually the stuff you run in it won't be available because the fuel suppliers (game makers) went broke. I know you can do this now but if you get caught pinching fuel you get done for theft and that’s why not many do it, I can’t say the same for copying games cos its harder to get caught and that’s why more will be tempted to do it unless we find a way of prosecuting the thieves.

 

[sk0pe]

Yer good metaphor m8 but still off the point a little, in this case you bought the Mazda (PS3) but you are not modifying the motor you are modifying the identification or numberplates so you can now get fuel from any supplier to run in it for free, Mazda will still sell their car but eventually the stuff you run in it won't be available because the fuel suppliers (game makers) went broke. I know you can do this now but if you get caught pinching fuel you get done for theft and that’s why not many do it, I can’t say the same for copying games cos its harder to get caught and that’s why more will be tempted to do it unless we find a way of prosecuting the thieves.

Are you kidding? With that example the license plates to steal fuel would PS3 equivalent of removing the serial number sticker from your controller, or painting your console a different colour. Not allowing you to do something with the console that you werent able to do before ( Run another operating system, eg. run a different engine. eg swappin a rotary into an old toyota that didn't come with a rotary ) Seriously mate think.

And there's no need to call me a selfish kid, for one i'm 23 which is legally classed as an adult since you like being all legal and all. Secondly, it would be good to keep this thread alive. So i won't reply to any more of your post's as your reverting to name calling when there is a rational debate to be had, which is just looking to be antagonistic and leans slightly towards the idea that the selfish kid might not be too far away from your own nose. Just a thought

 

[AUS_Topgear]

I'm sorry what have you lost ? Anon didn't bring down the PSN, Sony turned off the PSN due to an external breach, a better safe than sorry measure.

Anon brought it down last time and there was mention of a files in the system pointing to them, all we are doing is pointing out why what them and you are fighting for is wrong and not good for the future of gaming in general, it may be only 5% effected to you that’s still big dollars to game makers. Do you think that won't grow to an even larger% over time as more selfish thieves get there hands on the info.

 

[sk0pe]

Anon brought it down last time and there was mention of a files in the system pointing to them, all we are doing is pointing out why what them and you are fighting for is wrong and not good for the future of gaming in general, it may be only 5% effected to you that’s still big dollars to game makers. Do you think that won't grow to an even larger% over time as more selfish thieves get there hands on the info.

You don't even know what the info was. Your getting all worked up and you haven't worked out what your getting worked up about.

 

[niky]

I'm sorry what have you lost ? Anon didn't bring down the PSN, Sony turned off the PSN due to an external breach, a better safe than sorry measure

Sony closed the bank because they found out that someone had poked a hole in the vault. Either way, I'm also talking about Anon's DOS attack.

I take your point about the electronic lock but i don't think that would be illegal either, it's not illegal to share that information once you've learned it as far as im aware?

The laws on digital information are embryonic at this stage... and yes, it's possibly not illegal, but the release of such information would be financially disastrous to the company.

And there comes a point in time where you have to say we are willing to go without the PSN for a few days for a cause. It's not like you can't use your PS3 if your desperate to play games.
Btw. I'm just asking questions not trying to troll you

I'm thinking of the third party vendors, advertisers and Sony employees who all stand to lose income during a denial of service attack. For people like us who create content on networks (I'm not a programmer, but I write for a few online publications), uptime is money.

Whilst we might not want to use the Other OS feature that was sold with and then removed from the PS3, there is people out there who did - just like how we bought it expecting to be able to use PSN. Lets not be selfish and put ourselves in their shoes .

Who's being selfish? I agree that they can do anything they want with whatever they buy with their own money. I don't like that Sony has removed the OtherOS feature, because I'd like to be able to use more than the limited media software that comes on the PS3, but nobody has pointed a gun at anyone's head and forced anyone to buy a PS3.

If a product doesn't allow you to have the features you want, buy another one. Or go to a PC store, pick-up a few thousand dollars worth of parts, and build something with better video gaming and media-handling capability than a PS3 that will let you run whatever software you want.

 

[arora]

Anon brought it down last time

DDOS attack on the psn.

and there was mention of a files in the system pointing to them,

SOE hack.

Sorry to keep bringing this up but they are 2 different things.

 

[boshuter]

Anon brought it down last time and there was mention of a files in the system pointing to them, all we are doing is pointing out why what them and you are fighting for is wrong and not good for the future of gaming in general, it may be only 5% effected to you that’s still big dollars to game makers. Do you think that won't grow to an even larger% over time as more selfish thieves get there hands on the info.

Please use a spellchecker and invest a little time in learning some basic grammar. It's almost painful, and a little sad, to read your posts.

 

[AUS_Topgear]

Are you kidding? With that example the license plates to steal fuel would PS3 equivalent of removing the serial number sticker from your controller, or painting your console a different colour. Not allowing you to do something with the console that you werent able to do before ( Run another operating system, eg. run a different engine. eg swappin a rotary into an old toyota that didn't come with a rotary ) Seriously mate think.

And there's no need to call me a selfish kid, for one i'm 23 which is legally classed as an adult since you like being all legal and all. Secondly, it would be good to keep this thread alive. So i won't reply to any more of your post's as your reverting to name calling when there is a rational debate to be had, which is just looking to be antagonistic and leans slightly towards the idea that the selfish kid might not be too far away from your own nose. Just a thought

No, it’s not more to do with the motor but what you are going to be running in the car is my point, and that is free fuel in this case. You sure you are 23 and not 13, cos it’s not really that hard to see what is going on here unless you are ignoring the main and only fact that this is all about being able to play copied game in a modified system. So all analogies should address this and not try to justify by ignoring this fact. You are in denial m8 and can't see the trees for the forest, ask ya dad to explain it to you kid, he would have earnt all he has got not stole it, something the young ones don't understand.

 

[sk0pe]

The laws on digital information are embryonic at this stage... and yes, it's possibly not illegal, but the release of such information would be financially disastrous to the company.

- That's a responsibility of the company to ensure there product's aren't designed like that or to have safeguard's. But i do understand the point your making, and very right about embryonic digital laws.

I'm thinking of the third party vendors, advertisers and Sony employees who all stand to lose income during a denial of service attack. For people like us who create content on networks (I'm not a programmer, but I write for a few online publications), uptime is money.

Ok so what about in the 1960's civil right's movement when people blocked buisness as a form of peaceful protest against segregation, people lost money then too. Sometimes in buisness your going to lose money, no one said you were guaranteed to be constantly making money.
In this day and age a lot of buisness is conducted via the internet, hence the reason DOS attacks became popular. It doesn't affect server hardware or the company's property, it merely uses bandwidth. A digital protest similar to my prior example if you will.

Who's being selfish? I agree that they can do anything they want with whatever they buy with their own money. I don't like that Sony has removed the OtherOS feature, because I'd like to be able to use more than the limited media software that comes on the PS3, but nobody has pointed a gun at anyone's head and forced anyone to buy a PS3.

If a product doesn't allow you to have the features you want, buy another one. Or go to a PC store, pick-up a few thousand dollars worth of parts, and build something with better video gaming and media-handling capability than a PS3 that will let you run whatever software you want.

The trouble here Niky is that when these people paid 400 $500 or whatever they paid for the PS3 they bought it with an Other OS feature - since the time of their purchase this has been removed - If anyone can tell me how that is fair they can come and collect $100 from me next time their in NZ.

I put it to you like this, You bought your PS3 knowing it had PSN, so now i discover a way where i can download stuff for free, Sony finds out and BAM takes the PSN away for good because of me... How do you feel now? You bought it knowing you could play online games and suddenly that's been taken away..We have seen the reaction of people when it's taken away for 2 days, or 5 days let alone forever. Hell even Hitler is angry ( Lol @ youtube videos).

If the PSN had been taken down and there was this group on the internet who you could band together with to help take action to get your PSN back, are you telling me you wouldn't wanna help ?

Edit: work time now, so no more rants from me for a while

 

[jukes]

There are other ways of getting your point across

 

[sk0pe]

There are other ways of getting your point across

Like ? Writing them a friendly letter?

 

[jukes]

its not like your forced to buy a ps3 you made a decision to buy their property and agreed to their terms

 

[niky]

Ok so what about in the 1960's civil right's movement when people blocked buisness as a form of peaceful protest against segregation, people lost money then too. Sometimes in buisness your going to lose money, no one said you were guaranteed to be constantly making money.
In this day and age a lot of buisness is conducted via the internet, hence the reason DOS attacks became popular. It doesn't affect server hardware or the company's property, it merely uses bandwidth. A digital protest similar to my prior example if you will.

They're blocking the doors of businesses that practiced racial segregation.

DOS on PSN is blocking the doors not of a single business entity, but of an entire marketplace where various people and companies conduct their business and earn their livelihood.

The former was a protest of inequity. The latter was a protest against... what? A protest against one company trying to safeguard its investment through legal means?

The trouble here Niky is that when these people paid 400 $500 or whatever they paid for the PS3 they bought it with an Other OS feature - since the time of their purchase this has been removed - If anyone can tell me how that is fair they can come and collect $100 from me next time their in NZ.

I never suggested it was fair. In fact, if Sony gives those people a refund, hear! Hear! But in the end, two wrongs don't make a right.

I put it to you like this, You bought your PS3 knowing it had PSN, so now i discover a way where i can download stuff for free, Sony finds out and BAM takes the PSN away for good because of me... How do you feel now? You bought it knowing you could play online games and suddenly that's been taken away..We have seen the reaction of people when it's taken away for 2 days, or 5 days let alone forever. Hell even Hitler is angry ( Lol @ youtube videos).

I'm miffed, but do I blame the post office for shutting down when people start mailing letter bombs? No.

If the PSN had been taken down and there was this group on the internet who you could band together with to help take action to get your PSN back, are you telling me you wouldn't wanna help ?

You mean would I like to help catch the culprits so PSN could go back up? Sure. Would I help to propagate a system whereby third-party vendors are cheated out of their fair recompense for the work they put out? (in your hypothetical scenario where people could download for free) No.

Here's the wonder of capitalism: You can't force someone to provide a service which makes them lose money. Sony doesn't make money straight off of PSN. They make money off of the games and consoles they sell that use PSN. They make more money off of the vendors who provide content on PSN. If they can't protect the interests of those third party vendors, who loses? We do. Because then those vendors would find a more secure platform to sell their wares on.

Again. Who does this hurt?

Sony, a multi-billion dollar corporation with more than enough in financial assets to weather this rather small storm?

Or third party vendors and users who don't? And part-time employees and programmers for Sony who become redundant due to the loss of income (if you think top management will, then you don't know big business)?

 

[AUS_Topgear]

Sorry boshuter, i think I’ll leave it to niky, he seems to be able to get the message through a lot better. Well said niky, if people can't understand after that I’d give up and just know you put up a good argument but some people have a closed mind and no conscience and no respect and no appreciation of others hard work.

 

[atiger]

The trouble here Niky is that when these people paid 400 $500 or whatever they paid for the PS3 they bought it with an Other OS feature - since the time of their purchase this has been removed - If anyone can tell me how that is fair they can come and collect $100 from me next time their in NZ.

So, it's not fair that Sony removed a feature hardly anyone used, but it's fair for Anonymous to take out PSN in retaliation, and attempt to ruin their business?

There is no justification for what Anonymous have done to Sony. Sony contribute a great deal to this world in terms of employing people, paying taxes and developing quality products. Sony has a right to defend their intellectual property against attack. Anonymous contribute nothing to the world, they think they're freedom fighters, give me a break, they are nothing more than a bunch of privileged brats, who need a good kick up the #$@. Let's hope the authorities catch up with them shorty.

To quote something I heard PJ O'Rourke say at a speech "You live in the Western world, you better hope things don't become fair anytime soon". I will add to it by saying, if you're biggest problem is PSN is down for a few days, you really don't have any problems.

 

[DA__dogg]

I love how this thread at first was about discussing the outage but then turned in flame wars discussing what day started the week and more flame wars on big business tactics.

It's been two weeks with no psn. I've been okay with it so far, now I'm just irritated. At least we can still watch Netflix though. I bought Nascar The Game 2011 - big mistake lol.

 

[Sureboss]

I'm thinking of the third party vendors, advertisers and Sony employees who all stand to lose income during a denial of service attack. For people like us who create content on networks (I'm not a programmer, but I write for a few online publications), uptime is money.

Indeed, I know of people who have lost work because of this and others who are facing even greater issues. There's thousands of non-Sony people this is hurting massively.

Who's being selfish? I agree that they can do anything they want with whatever they buy with their own money. I don't like that Sony has removed the OtherOS feature, because I'd like to be able to use more than the limited media software that comes on the PS3, but nobody has pointed a gun at anyone's head and forced anyone to buy a PS3.

If a product doesn't allow you to have the features you want, buy another one. Or go to a PC store, pick-up a few thousand dollars worth of parts, and build something with better video gaming and media-handling capability than a PS3 that will let you run whatever software you want.

I've always thought OtherOS was a massive mistake from Sony, it's a console, it should never have had such a thing. They've been berating production costs for it's removal and this was a complete failure of their planning, they should have known that such a tiny amount of people would have used OtherOS and thus rendered its maintenance expensive.

As for removing it? I think it was always going to cause trouble, some might say that they could have offered financial compensation or some form of free content that they will when PSN is back up, but I'm not sure that would have appeased those behind the attacks. Their communication with the consumer throughout all of it was pretty dire, that didn't help.

If I ever used OtherOS I would be pretty damn annoyed though, so I can sympathise with them to an extent.

 

[sk0pe]

I love how this thread at first was about discussing the outage but then turned in flame wars discussing what day started the week and more flame wars on big business tactics.

- What else do you wanna discuss about the outage? It's out, you can't use it, you should be able to soon. What else is there to discuss beside's how we got to this situation in the first place, which is what these 'flamewars' as you put it are about.

Why does discussion and debate have to be referred to as flamewars or bickering? Two people can have different points of view and still be rational , civil and friendly natured about it. - Decent debate is far better than reading through Premium car wishlists, and 'i want porsche' threads surely?

Niky - I never suggested it was fair. In fact, if Sony gives those people a refund, hear! Hear! But in the end, two wrongs don't make a right.

That's the thing they didn't refund or compensate they just removed a feature (Other OS) and hoped no-one would say anything.

Your point about 1960's only affect those buisness that did segregate racially, well i argue that in today's day and age how can you protest against a company without affecting a 3rd party. There is a lot more advertising,3rd party deals etc these days.
Unfortunately sometimes there has to be collateral damage, ask George Bush about Iraq..

You mean would I like to help catch the culprits so PSN could go back up? Sure. Would I help to propagate a system whereby third-party vendors are cheated out of their fair recompense for the work they put out? (in your hypothetical scenario where people could download for free) No.

- The thing is in my scenario much like their situation, the PSN like the Other OS feature would be removed forever, there is no chance to 'go back up' -

Here's the wonder of capitalism: You can't force someone to provide a service which makes them lose money. Sony doesn't make money straight off of PSN. They make money off of the games and consoles they sell that use PSN. They make more money off of the vendors who provide content on PSN. If they can't protect the interests of those third party vendors, who loses? We do. Because then those vendors would find a more secure platform to sell their wares on.

Again. Who does this hurt?

Sony, a multi-billion dollar corporation with more than enough in financial assets to weather this rather small storm?

Or third party vendors and users who don't? And part-time employees and programmers for Sony who become redundant due to the loss of income (if you think top management will, then you don't know big business)?

The thing is where is this loss of income coming from? Geohotz didn't provide a way to play pirated game. He didn't provide a way to download DLC for free. All he did was provide a way for user's who had PAID for a ps3 console, to use their own homebrew software and applications. None of which hurt Sony or a 3rd party developer? So while i'm tryin to see your point i just can't.

SureBoss - If I ever used OtherOS I would be pretty damn annoyed though, so I can sympathise with them to an extent

- That's all i'm trying to say, i'm just tryin to put myself into someone else's shoes and imagine how they would feel .