Creation vs. Evolution

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I want to build a car. But I have no idea how to put all the parts together.

If I dump all the parts in a pond of water how long will it take before they come together? 1-2 billion years? I mean, seriously, if things can just come together and create something alive and advanced if you just put the right parts in an area, then we should give it a shot. The parts will make a car that can drive underwater. But in time, the car will change its parts and make itself ready for land.

Scientific law states that cells can only come from other living cells. So where did the first cell come from?


If the universe was indeed created by the big bang, then what was the action that caused the reaction of the big bang?

How many of you who do not believe that there is a God but believe in Aliens? I'm sure most of you will say the possibility of other life out there is very good, but you say this life is some form of alien on bacteria, not God. Some even attribute the creation of life to higher alien life, but leave God out of the picture. They run to distant planets etc looking for answers, but once they reach the peak of the mountain of evidence and truth, they will find theolgians that have been there for centuries

We are designed not merely to live life, but to enjoy everything we do, from the satisfication of hard work to a tasty meal. We didnt have to have color vision, we didnt have to have taste buds, we didnt have to have sexual organs, we didnt have to have all of the 5 senses, we didnt have to have 2 eyes. We didnt have to have 2 ears etc

Evolution tries to tell us how life survives and changes, but it does not tell us how it got here.

What are the chances of a simple protein forming at random in a protein soup? Evolutionists acknowledge the odds are 1 : 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000.

(Yes, 1 followed by 113 zeros.)

2000 proteins serving serving as enzymes are needed for cell’s activity. What are the chances of these being formed at random? 1: 1 followed by 40,000 zeros

“If one is not prejudiced by either by social beliefs or by scientific training into the conviction that life originated (spontaneously) on the Earth, this simple calculation (the mathematical odds against it) wipes the idea entirely out of court.” -Astronomers Fred Hoyle and N. C. Wickramasinghe
 
sicbeing
Here is one.

READ THIS AND ANSWER IT, please! ty

God created Adam. This was before Adam and Eve were sentenced to death, disease, work, etc.

God is the only "being" able to exist outside the demension of time. He has always existed. He has always just, been.

Now, why, did God create time, before death?

If there was no death, then there was no aging. Or, at least I am assuming that since I wouldn't understand people would origionally age without a "final destination" (death).

This means that Adam and Eve and eveything in this garden were origionally meant to live forever. Even though Adam and Eve lived for almost one thousand years each, they were not origionally created to die. Or at least these points are not mentioned anywhere (that I've read) at the beginning of the Bible.

Now, if God origionally KNEW that adam and eve were to listen to that talking snake, then that would just boggle me even further. How would God know that? Is he just that all knowing? Can he predict the future? If so what is the purpose of BEING when he already KNOWS what's happened? (or happening, in our terms). I mean he has already BEEN in our future, hell, he IS in our future, our present, our past. We are not even a blink of an eye to him, hell, no, we never happened! He haven't happened, and we are always happening!

I wouldn't understand how something that exisit out of time could comprehend being IN time or even watching us inside time, just as we cannot fathom always-being and being-always.

Anyway. Your thoughts?
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I have thought about this a lot actually, it's one of those, "...but what will really cook your noodle is.... - The Matrix" things. God cannot change our actions, only influence them through guidance. Being all knowing, our destiny has already been written, but regardless, that destiny is created out of our choices that we make with the free will that was given to us by God. The Bible says that he knows the hairs on our head that he knows when a sparrow falls. I can't even come close to imagining how a being (regardless of how Divine) could possibly realize all that information. The more I think about it, the more it hurts, and the more I am humbled at the thought of it. Christ tells us what our purpose is.

This is a pretty bad example, but it's the first that came to mind. When I compare human intelligence, lifestyle, length of life, body complexity to that of a mosquito and compare that to God's characteristics to that of our human characteristics, it makes the comprehension more tangible.

I hope I've answered your question satisfactorally.
 
Earth
What are the chances of a simple protein forming at random in a protein soup? Evolutionists acknowledge the odds are 1 : 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000
Click to expand...

You accidentally hit the nail right on the head there... by using the term 'at random', you misunderstand the processes involved in protein folding. Protein folding is not random... otherwise any given sequence of amino acids could form an almost infinite variety of shapes (folds), but they don't... proteins have precise structures, determined by their primary structure (their amino acid sequence) and the folding process is governed by the simple laws of physics... (simple in that the laws of physics themselves are simple... how they contrive to generate the complexity of a single protein fold is entirely non-simple)... once again, simple physics is capable of creating the bewildering illusion of complexity...

Evolution is another example of something that is non-random that is capable of generating complexity by applying the simple laws of physics...
 
Earth
Scientific law states that cells can only come from other living cells.
Click to expand...

Nope.

Earth
So where did the first cell come from?
Click to expand...

I've already answered this in this thread.

Earth
If the universe was indeed created by the big bang, then what was the action that caused the reaction of the big bang?
Click to expand...

I've already answered this in this thread.

Please, read the whole thread before bringing up questions which have already been answered.

Earth
Evolution tries to tell us how life survives and changes, but it does not tell us how it got here.
Click to expand...

Well, at least you've got that right.

Earth
What are the chances of a simple protein forming at random in a protein soup? Evolutionists acknowledge the odds are 1 : 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000.

(Yes, 1 followed by 113 zeros.)

2000 proteins serving serving as enzymes are needed for cell’s activity. What are the chances of these being formed at random? 1: 1 followed by 40,000 zeros

“If one is not prejudiced by either by social beliefs or by scientific training into the conviction that life originated (spontaneously) on the Earth, this simple calculation (the mathematical odds against it) wipes the idea entirely out of court.” -Astronomers Fred Hoyle and N. C. Wickramasinghe
Click to expand...

People always take Wickramasinghe out of context, though he is a bit of a kook. However, the key word in this "quote" is "Earth"

With something as large - infinite - as the universe, infinitessimal probabilities are resolved to 1. If it CAN happen, it WILL happen, simply because the "phase space" is so large. Giving odds on it happening in one place will give you nice, comforting, vast numbers - but it MUST happen somewhere. The universe doesn't remember things - in the same way a coin doesn't remember the previous flips. We're only aware that it - life arising spontaneously on Earth - happened here because it happened here.

Your premise that a cell cannot form without the 2,000 proteins required is also in error, and the subsequent number "calculated" on this premise is irrelevant. Your number quoted for the figure that "evolutionists acknowledge" is not referenced - from where did you get it?


And last, but not least, it doesn't matter whether or not X is "easier to believe" than Y. That has no bearing on whether or not it is the truth.

Edit: Not quite last then. Pako... Predetermined free will?
 
Famine




Edit: Not quite last then. Pako... Predetermined free will?
Click to expand...

"Predetermined free will" ...... Rather odd combination of words. What exactly are you asking? Is our free will predetermined? That depends on "your" definition of "predetermined". Since you choose to have your own definitions regardless of all the other dictionaries out there, what is your definition of "predetermined" so I can better answer your question.

[edited]
famine

With something as large - infinite - as the universe, infinitessimal probabilities are resolved to 1. If it CAN happen, it WILL happen, simply because the "phase space" is so large. Giving odds on it happening in one place will give you nice, comforting, vast numbers - but it MUST happen somewhere. The universe doesn't remember things - in the same way a coin doesn't remember the previous flips. We're only aware that it - life arising spontaneously on Earth - happened here because it happened here.
Click to expand...

What/Who determines what CAN happen? If you suggest that the only thing that CAN happen is what science says CAN happen then you are mistaken based simply on the FACT that there are things that science CANNOT explain. So in your universe, you and I CAN both be right in concluding our origins.
 
"So God, if I thought of something, and then did something different, would you know that too?"

"Then I wouldn't know that."

*sinister voice* "Alright, cool, cool."

- Bender's discussion with God, Futurama
 
Pako
Being all knowing, our destiny has already been written, but regardless, that destiny is created out of our choices that we make with the free will that was given to us by God.
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According to this, our destiny is predetermined since God knows it. Then again you say God gives us free will. Hence you say we have predetermined free will - a bizarre concept.
 
Famine
According to this, our destiny is predetermined since God knows it. Then again you say God gives us free will. Hence you say we have predetermined free will - a bizarre concept.
Click to expand...

There was more to the post if you want to address it. Again, what's your definition of "predetermined"?

God knows what choices you are going to make, but He doesn't force you to make those choices. If they were forced, they wouldn't be choices, and therefore would not be free will now would it. So no, it's really not that bizarre.
 
If the outcome of something is known before it takes place then it is predetermined - that is the outcome has been decided prior to the event.

Predeterminism precludes free will. If what we do is known before we do it, then our choice to do it is not really a choice. Free will precludes predeterminism. If we can choose what to do then the outcome cannot be known. Free will also precludes omniscience - if what we do is unknown then nothing can know everything.

It is not possible for God to both know what we're going to do AND allow us to do what we want, since if we can do what we want no-one can know what it is we're going to do, and if it is known what we're going to do then we cannot do what we want.

Imagine reading a book for the second time. The characters apper to do what they want - but you know what they're going to do. They appear to exhibit free will, yet are following a predetermined path. Importantly, from the perspective of your last post, you aren't forcing them to do anything either.
 
Famine
If the outcome of something is known before it takes place then it is predetermined - that is the outcome has been decided prior to the event.

Predeterminism precludes free will. If what we do is known before we do it, then our choice to do it is not really a choice. Free will precludes predeterminism. If we can choose what to do then the outcome cannot be known. Free will also precludes omniscience - if what we do is unknown then nothing can know everything.

It is not possible for God to both know what we're going to do AND allow us to do what we want, since if we can do what we want no-one can know what it is we're going to do, and if it is known what we're going to do then we cannot do what we want.

Imagine reading a book for the second time. The characters apper to do what they want - but you know what they're going to do. They appear to exhibit free will, yet are following a predetermined path. Importantly, from the perspective of your last post, you aren't forcing them to do anything either.
Click to expand...


Which is what God could be doing, no? After all, God is seen as a being of infinete power, including traits that contradict each other.
 
The characters have no free will. Pako says that we do, even though both the characters' and our fates are, apparently, known for eternity.
 
Famine
The characters have no free will. Pako says that we do, even though both the characters' and our fates are, apparently, known for eternity.
Click to expand...

Perhaps it's all relative. We feel like we have free will, when from another point of view we don't. If God does determine our fates, then absolute free will would be an impossibility.
 
No pako sorry you didn't satisfy me with what you said.

Truth is, we cannot even begin to fathom how god works, what he does, when he does it. So how can you say you talk to him? Oh but you don't REALLY talk to him, you just take random things out of everyday life, then convince yourself that it must have been God telling you something, then you just want to believe that SO much that you make yourself believe it.

If God is infinite, and we are not, how do we get into heaven and see him? Or live by him forever? If God is the only one to "be" outside of time, what about Lucifer? What about demons, angels, dead people, the squirrel you just ran over? What do we do when we ge to heaven? Think about it, being on a earth-like place with no fatigue, no worry, no disease, no pain, what kind of life/existence would that be? I'm sure you'd get done with it and be bored of it within a month, because by then you'd prolly have done everything you've wanted to.

You can't say I'm not at least somewhat correct.

People are not real. You are not real, I am not real. We are not "here". We are brains with senses and orphaces. We are not personalities, we are chemical imbalances created by the random genetics of your mother and father. Maybe even someday we can be random genetics of cloning? What we see and what we hear cannot be real since what we see isn't even what we TRULY see. What we truly see is light bouncing off an object into our sight so we can see the colour. Without light there is not even colour.

I've gone off on myself here. It's been a while since I've bothered to look at this thread. I'm surprised Famine, Pako, Danoff, Swift, all haven't just "dropped" it by now.

Lets get these facts straight:

The world is not 6-7k years old. Period! =)
If God is infinite, we would never be able to talk to him.
God is infinite, so how would we -really- ever knew he existed.

Maybe some of you don't believe God is infinite, that maybe someone created him even. Or maybe you believe angels or dead people are infinite. I don't know what you believe.

Uh, sicbeing, FTW! (maybe)
 
Einstein believed there was a God, not one defined by any dogma, but he believed there was an intelligent designer.

So the greatest mind of our time believed in intelligent design
 
Famine
If the outcome of something is known before it takes place then it is predetermined - that is the outcome has been decided prior to the event.

Predeterminism precludes free will. If what we do is known before we do it, then our choice to do it is not really a choice. Free will precludes predeterminism. If we can choose what to do then the outcome cannot be known. Free will also precludes omniscience - if what we do is unknown then nothing can know everything.

It is not possible for God to both know what we're going to do AND allow us to do what we want, since if we can do what we want no-one can know what it is we're going to do, and if it is known what we're going to do then we cannot do what we want.

Imagine reading a book for the second time. The characters apper to do what they want - but you know what they're going to do. They appear to exhibit free will, yet are following a predetermined path. Importantly, from the perspective of your last post, you aren't forcing them to do anything either.
Click to expand...


The Bible says that God is All Knowing. We are given free will to make our own choices, even though God knows what choices we are going to make. If you conclude that this is predetermination and thereby removing our free will, then that is your conclusion although there is no Biblical principles to back that, and however wrong I feel your opinion would be, it would still be your opinion. Depending on what your definition of "determination", depends on if I will agree with you or not. You feel that "predetermination" means that God has already determined my actions, that he is making those choices for me. If I knew that someone was going to do something, that person would have still had to have made that choice to do that. If God created time, and not a part of time, then there is no before, during, or after...it just IS on some level that I don't understand. So you can't have "pre-time" now can we.

Being able to agree with one another on this point "predetermined fate" is quite irrelevant, what is relevant is that God gave us free will so that we can make our own choices. What's also relevant is that God is all knowing and knows us better than we know ourselves. He knows that I am typing this right now, his knowing that doesn't mean that I don't have a choice in the matter. You want to keep putting limitations on God by using what, physicals laws that made? God is not bound by time and therefore not bound to it's rules. Knowing the outcome doesn't produce the action, the action still has to occur for the outcome to happen. The action is the free will of our choice.
 
sicbeing
No pako sorry you didn't satisfy me with what you said.

Truth is, we cannot even begin to fathom how god works, what he does, when he does it. So how can you say you talk to him? Oh but you don't REALLY talk to him, you just take random things out of everyday life, then convince yourself that it must have been God telling you something, then you just want to believe that SO much that you make yourself believe it.

If God is infinite, and we are not, how do we get into heaven and see him? Or live by him forever? If God is the only one to "be" outside of time, what about Lucifer? What about demons, angels, dead people, the squirrel you just ran over? What do we do when we ge to heaven? Think about it, being on a earth-like place with no fatigue, no worry, no disease, no pain, what kind of life/existence would that be? I'm sure you'd get done with it and be bored of it within a month, because by then you'd prolly have done everything you've wanted to.

You can't say I'm not at least somewhat correct.

People are not real. You are not real, I am not real. We are not "here". We are brains with senses and orphaces. We are not personalities, we are chemical imbalances created by the random genetics of your mother and father. Maybe even someday we can be random genetics of cloning? What we see and what we hear cannot be real since what we see isn't even what we TRULY see. What we truly see is light bouncing off an object into our sight so we can see the colour. Without light there is not even colour.

I've gone off on myself here. It's been a while since I've bothered to look at this thread. I'm surprised Famine, Pako, Danoff, Swift, all haven't just "dropped" it by now.

Lets get these facts straight:

The world is not 6-7k years old. Period! =)
If God is infinite, we would never be able to talk to him.
God is infinite, so how would we -really- ever knew he existed.

Maybe some of you don't believe God is infinite, that maybe someone created him even. Or maybe you believe angels or dead people are infinite. I don't know what you believe.

Uh, sicbeing, FTW! (maybe)
Click to expand...

I believe in prayer. I have talked with God, not in the traditional sense like you and I are talking now. God can give me answers or answer my prayers. I still don't understand why you think that God won't/can't be a part of your life because he is infinite. Do you think He's too good for you? Do you think you're not worthy? Or do you think it defies some scientific law or principle? I'm not sure how you would have concluded this.

I'm surprised that we're still taking about this as well.... I thought it was dead, but someone fired it up again.

I'm tired and cross-eyed so off to bed I go...

:cheers:
 
Bush endorses teaching "intelligent design" in schools

By Ron Hutcheson

WASHINGTON — President Bush waded into the debate over evolution and "intelligent design" yesterday, saying schools should teach both on the origins and complexity of life.

In a wide-ranging question-and-answer session with a small group of reporters, Bush essentially endorsed efforts by Christian conservatives to give intelligent design equal standing with evolution in the nation's schools.

Proponents of intelligent design suggest that the complexity of life forms cannot be explained by evolutionary theory alone but rather points to intentional creation, presumably divine.

The theory of evolution, first articulated by British naturalist Charles Darwin in 1859, is based on the idea that living organisms developed over time through random mutations and factors in nature that favored certain traits that helped species survive.

Scientists acknowledge that evolution doesn't answer every question about the origins of life, but most consider intelligent design an attempt to inject religion into science courses.

Bush, who is to leave today for a month long stay at his Texas ranch, compared the current debate to earlier disputes over "creationism," a related view that adheres more closely to biblical explanations. As governor of Texas, Bush said students should be exposed to both creationism and evolution.

Yesterday the president said he favors the same approach for intelligent design "so people can understand what the debate is about."

The Kansas Board of Education is considering changes to encourage the teaching of intelligent design in Kansas schools, and Christian conservatives are pushing for similar changes in other school districts across the country.

"I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought," Bush said.

"You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas; the answer is yes."

The National Academy of Sciences and the American Association for the Advancement of Science have both concluded that there is no scientific basis for intelligent design and oppose its inclusion in school science classes.

"The claim that equity demands balanced treatment of evolutionary theory and special creation in science classrooms reflects a misunderstanding of what science is and how it is conducted," the academy said in a 1999 assessment. "Creationism, intelligent design, and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life or of species are not science because they are not testable by the methods of science."

Some scientists have declined to join the debate, fearing that amplifying the discussion only gives intelligent design more legitimacy.

But advocates of intelligent design also claim support from scientists.

The Discovery Institute, a conservative think tank in Seattle that is the leading proponent of intelligent design, said it has compiled a list of more than 400 scientists, including 70 biologists, who are skeptical about evolution.

"The fact is that a significant number of scientists are extremely skeptical that Darwinian evolution can explain the origins of life," John West, associate director of the organization's Center for Science and Culture, said in a statement.

Link: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht...?syndication=rss&source=politics.xml&items=21

----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is unreal, is this really happening?

Oh, and check this out. They're building a Creation Museum. A Creation Museum!
 
Who said Intelligent Design is a science? It will not replace Evolution in science classes. However, all theories, including Intelligent Design should be represented.
 
Swift
you guys are funny. You will believe that Life just came out of no where, but simply due to the laws of physics(that something had to set up) and after a few billion years we have people! Yay! Yep, that's so much more believable then intelligent design. Sorry, my fault.
Click to expand...

Why would something have to set up the laws of physics :lol: You think in such a narrow spectrum.
You obviously weren't very good at science in school, and have now found yourself a much easier explanation that you can understand...well done...but as they say, by taking the easy way out, you are only cheating yourself.

Creationists were mocked in the 16th century, in the 21st, we should put you in a museum :lol:

The idea of a magic man creating the world as a present to us represents the vanity of man, for it is rather egocentric to suggest that the entire universe was created for us to look at... :crazy:

Pako
The Bible says that....blah blah
Click to expand...
Pako
The Bible says that he knows the hairs...blah blah
Click to expand...
Yawn (sounds like a stuck record)....it's a book...get over it....

As for your "Intelligent Design", Swift, can you explain why a Whale has hind leg bones? And despite living in water it's whole life, it breathes air!!
You'd get the sack for making a design error like that :lol:

Edit: Earth, just stick to looking at girly pics, you never know, one day you might meet a real one ;)
 
Pako
I believe in prayer. I have talked with God, not in the traditional sense like you and I are talking now. God can give me answers or answer my prayers. I still don't understand why you think that God won't/can't be a part of your life because he is infinite. Do you think He's too good for you? Do you think you're not worthy? Or do you think it defies some scientific law or principle? I'm not sure how you would have concluded this.

I'm surprised that we're still taking about this as well.... I thought it was dead, but someone fired it up again.

I'm tired and cross-eyed so off to bed I go...

:cheers:
Click to expand...


I'm not saying he's too good for me, I was saying it was impossible to talk with an infinite being. Or at least, I would think so.


How does God answer your prayers? You pray for something, then something happens, and however it relates to your prayer, you think it was God?

Say I prayed for my cousins good health. 2 weeks later, he is cured of his disease. Was it God? Or was it something else? Or was it anything? What if he died? Would it have been God then?

I just know where to draw the line, what IS God, and what isn't.
 
Nov 25 2004, 8:13 PM Post #1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its a big deal now for the folks who are upset about the seperation of church and state , to now try to introduce creation into schools by saying that a " benevolent force ' created the universe . What do you think about creation ? Is it a valid enough premise to be taught in school ?
Click to expand...

This debate has been going on here for quite some time now . You may have to read for a while to catch up .

the fact is ID is a psuedo science and cant be taught on equal footing with a REAL subject like evolution . I.D. is a faith based way of trying to get around the seperation of church and state to teach bull****e in schools .
 
tabs
Like this one? I've been looking at this site all day, it's awesome.
Click to expand...
Awesome how? As in awesomely devastating to the evolutionists, or as an awesome collection of the worst mistaken-assumption-based pseudoscience ever collected in a self-righteous fervor?
 
You can teach Creation any way you want - as long as it's in the Social Studies class, as part of a unit on cultural mythology.
 
You've got to love Ken Ham... :D I reckon Charles Darwin's place on the back of the British £10 note is going to be safe for a while...
 
Zardoz
Beyond reason, beyond intelligence, beyond logic, beyond belief:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/museum/docs2005/0523dinosaurs.asp

The builders of this "museum" are unwittingly creating a monument to ignorance and superstition. It will end up being famous worldwide for its mindless foolishness.
Click to expand...

:lol: Am at work and will get in trouble if I don't stop laughing.

Their “sworn testimony” will astound the world.
Click to expand...

Yep the testimony of a couple of talking dinosaurs is going to put the record straight...well on the Disney Channel perhaps :lol:

Actually I take that back, 5 year olds have enough sense to see through this one.

Edit: I wonder if the "sworn testimony" of those dinosaurs is as reliable as the sworn testimony in the bible...hmmm...talking dinosaurs...must be true... :lol:
 

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