GT4 Tuning - An interesting little test - Volunteers needed

Scaff · Dec 16, 2006

This one is a little bit unusual as the idea behind it is to put two differing approaches to GT4 tuning to the test (suchayo's and mine) and see which one results in the better lap time and the better car to drive.

Car & Track
The car will be a modified and tuned Caterham Seven Fireblade running at Trial Mountain (possibly Midfield as an alternative).

The exact level of modifications may well vary between the set-ups (as that's part of the test), but both cars should be running with at least Stage 3 weight reduction, full power mods and on N3 tyres. The rest is up to the individual tuner.

Obviously given the above the car will be running in GT Mode to allow the set-ups to be put in place.

Timescale
Both set-ups should be ready by Monday and I have asked Der Alta to look after distribution of them, I'm looking to get this run before Christmas so will suggest a cut-off date for all feedback of Friday 22nd December.

A thread will be created in the GT4 settings sub-forum to post results in and I will link to it as soon as its up and running.

Results
What I am looking for is two sets of info, the first is nice and straightforward, a set of split times and a final lap-time. All of which should be quite normal for you guys.

The second is a bit more tricky, but it would be greatly appreciated, and that's a write up of your thoughts on the car and its behaviour. I know this is far trickier and often subjective but I'm sure it will prove to be useful and anything from a few lines to 'War & Peace' would be accepted.

What next?
Well the first stage is to get a list of volunteers together, I'm not setting a limit on this and the more drivers we get the better the overall results should be, but given the info required and time-scale involved please make sure that you are able to get times back before Dec 22nd and are able to put a small write-up together.

Once we have a list of drivers put together and both tuners have submitted the set-ups, then Der Alta will circulate them. Once you are happy with final times and have a brief write-up ready simply post them in the GT4 Settings thread (link to follow).

Drivers List
alrivers
AngelCreator
VTRacing
Blake
Sphinx (? Depends on the track)
Gingiba
DJ Baker
daan

Any questions just ask, and thanks in advance.

Scaff

alrivers · Dec 17, 2006

so you need a driver...eyy? I'm in...

AngelCreator · Dec 17, 2006

Well I do like driving, and I know how you and sucahyo have different idea's
on setup's. So you can count me in too. And maybe I can learn something.

VTRacing · Dec 17, 2006

I'll do what I can, Scaff. Theories on setup are always contentious issues.

Count me in. 👍

Scaff · Dec 17, 2006

Excellent that's three drivers so far.

Thanks guys your assistance is much appreciated.

I have added a driver list to first post.

👍

Scaff

Der Alta · Dec 17, 2006

I will be driving as well, but my reports shall'nt be included, as I'll know who's set-up is who's. Thus not being a blind taste test of settings.

Sunday is the quietest day on GTP, so it might take a bit to assemble the full driver list.

Looking forward to it.

Blake · Dec 17, 2006

Sure, I’m in. This sort of stuff is always really interesting! Just need to win a new Caterham 7, wherever I’d do that…

Scaff · Dec 17, 2006

Blake
Sure, Im in. This sort of stuff is always really interesting! Just need to win a new Caterham 7, wherever Id do that

Blake I've added you to the list (DA I've not done for the reasons he has outlined above).

BTW - You can buy the Caterham new, as far as I remember its not a prize car.

Regards

Scaff

Sphinx · Dec 17, 2006

Hi Scaff,
Using the Caterham Seven Fireblade is a good selection, but I'm not so sure about using Trial Mountain for the track selection. IMO TM is just too technical in order to seperate the better setup from driving ability. What is required IMO is a track selection that allows the setup to do the talking and I would therefore suggest Midfield. Although Midfield is a good power track, it also has a number of areas (5 to be exact) that demand a good setup (which is important in this car selection) in order to achieve a good lap time.

Just a suggestion.

Jerry.

Scaff · Dec 17, 2006

Sphinx
Hi Scaff,
Using the Caterham Seven Fireblade is a good selection, but I'm not so sure about using Trial Mountain for the track selection. IMO TM is just too technical in order to seperate the better setup from driving ability. What is required IMO is a track selection that allows the setup to do the talking and I would therefore suggest Midfield. Although Midfield is a good power track, it also has a number of areas (5 to be exact) that demand a good setup (which is important in this car selection) in order to achieve a good lap time.

Just a suggestion.

Jerry.

And as always a very good suggestion and a very valid point.

Personally I hadn't considered that point, but I would be more than open to a change of location. I will raise it with Suchayo and see if he is open to the change.

This may add a short delay to the supply of final set-ups to DA, but I'm sure it would be nothing major.

I will get back in regard to this as soon as I have any news.

Regards

Scaff

Sphinx · Dec 17, 2006

Well if you do decide to change then you can put my name down for sure 👍

You may find this interesting if you haven't already seen it:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=86791

Blake · Dec 17, 2006

Scaff
And as always a very good suggestion and a very valid point.

Personally I hadn't considered that point, but I would be more than open to a change of location. I will raise it with Suchayo and see if he is open to the change.

This may add a short delay to the supply of final set-ups to DA, but I'm sure it would be nothing major.

I will get back in regard to this as soon as I have any news.

Regards

Scaff

Do people get both setups or just randomly given one? If people get both of the setups then I think the track will have little or nothing to do with the final results, because you’ll (presumably) be looking at the difference between a persons lap time with Setup A and the same persons lap time with Setup B.

Sphinx · Dec 17, 2006

Blake
Do people get both setups or just randomly given one? If people get both of the setups then I think the track will have little or nothing to do with the final results, because you’ll (presumably) be looking at the difference between a persons lap time with Setup A and the same persons lap time with Setup B.

By ‘driving ability’ I mean increasing driving consistency, and therefore by changing from TM to Midfield it would enable the driver to concentrate more on the setup instead of concentrating (think time) more on the technicalities of the track. TM is a wonderful track, but for an exercise such as this, whereby the main focus is the setup, it is therefore too technical. With Midfield one has more time to think about the setup and more time to get the right driving line in order to analyse and review the setup and also increase the consistency of the driver at the same time.

Metar · Dec 17, 2006

I'm in, whether it's Trial Mountain or Midfield. I'm with Jerry on this one, Trial is too complicated to get a good laptime for the more inconsistent drivers (Me)... Plus, a high-power Caterham spins the wheels easily if you even sneeze at the throttle during a bump, which is why Midfield gets another point.

Which reminds me of my plans to finally start a Caterham-Only race series...

DJ Baker · Dec 17, 2006

I'd be willing to participate in your comparison. What I lack in GT4 skills (WRS Div 3 Podium Sniffer), I might be able to make up for in set-up evaluation/write-up skills, as I'm a Development Engineer for Bilstein. I could even provide an evaluation form if you're interested.

If nothing else, maybe I'd at least learn something about GT4 set-up, since it seems to defy logic at times.

Blake · Dec 17, 2006

Sphinx
By driving ability I mean increasing driving consistency, and therefore by changing from TM to Midfield it would enable the driver to concentrate more on the setup instead of concentrating (think time) more on the technicalities of the track. TM is a wonderful track, but for an exercise such as this, whereby the main focus is the setup, it is therefore too technical. With Midfield one has more time to think about the setup and more time to get the right driving line in order to analyse and review the setup and also increase the consistency of the driver at the same time.

I think that Trial Mountain is a perfect track for this exercise, it has all the corners and bumps you need to test a setup really well. Personally, I think if you can’t put in half an hour to learn the circuit then you probably wouldn’t volunteer for this exercise.

Besides, Midfield is so plain.

daan · Dec 17, 2006

I can see an argument for both tracks, but I tend to agree with Blake. Surely a major point of how good a setup is, is how it can handle bumps? That's not going to get tested at midfield.

I'd like to volunteer as a driver for this (irrespective of what track is chosen).

Scaff · Dec 17, 2006

All new names added to the list. 👍 Again thanks for all the volunteers.

Just to let you guys know, in the interest of 'impartiality' (as I am after all one of the tuners) I have asked Der Alta to decide the issue regard track selection and the distribution of the set-ups once both are in.

Regards

Scaff

BTW @ DJ Baker - Any and all assistance regarding evaluation sheets, etc would be most useful.

Sphinx · Dec 18, 2006

Blake
I think if you can’t put in half an hour to learn the circuit then you probably wouldn’t volunteer for this exercise.

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are trying to say with that comment. Would you care to explain please?

With TM (which I know very well btw) we have the setup, the track and driver variables(driver ability/driving style, and all that goes with it) to take into account.

With MR (no matter how "plain" it is

) we just have the setup and driver variables(driver ability/driving style, and all that goes with it) to take into account.

Having spent the last 6 years in OLR, it is in my experience that Midfield is a far better test track for setups than TM would ever be.

I won't continue to make my point on this any further because I believe I've already said enough. :sly:

Your call guys.

Blake · Dec 18, 2006

Sphinx
I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are trying to say with that comment. Would you care to explain please?

Well Trial Mountain is just a race track, it has corners and straights like any other. Anyone can learn a race track. The difference between Trial Mountain and Midfield is that Trial Mountain has a bigger variety of corners, including camber changes and bumps. More types of corners means that drivers can better describe what the car feels like in different situations.

In the end they’re both just race tracks, so any driver should be able to learn to lap reasonably consistantly. But the best setup will shine at Trial Mountain, whereas at Midfield I don’t think it will, because the setup does not have to be as versatile.

Mr P · Dec 18, 2006

well I have been out on the piss tonight and i'm pretty much cooked asd a goose

anyway if Jerry thinks its ok then thats good enough for me .... count me in also

both tracks are easy but midfield can be done blindfolded

well by a few of us anyway

may the best setter upper win

Sphinx · Dec 18, 2006

Blake
The difference between Trial Mountain and Midfield is that Trial Mountain has a bigger variety of corners, including camber changes and bumps. More types of corners means that drivers can better describe what the car feels like in different situations.

And with TM there are more variables to take into account, was it the driver who got that lap time, was it the setup, did the driver get a lucky line into the next turn by hitting that bump???

Why is there such a big gap in drivers lap times(because you will get that at TM)? Is this gap due to driver ability or driving style?

If one wants to solely concentrate (within reason) on the setup then all the above needs to be reduced and therefore by selecting MR this would be achieved because at MR the gap between driver's ability is reduced and all the variables that come with driving style is also reduced.

Example:

Here we have the lap times from that link I posted earlier. it is GT-Mode at MR with the Caterham Seven Fireblade with Racing Hards.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2431629&postcount=1

I've taken the top two times out because they were running a more superior setup compared to the others who were using more or less the same kind of setup.

1'08.149 - rotbarsch1979
1'08.261 - rmk700
1'08.289 - YIN
1'08.468 - AngelCreator
1'08.652 - Tomf4i03
1'08.672 - Casio
1'08.815 - MINICOOPER120
1'08.943 - KLR142
1'09.023 - shockwaveracing
1'09.294 - βen
1'09.355 - Dr_Watson
1'09.369 - MisterWeary
1'09.638 - Ren-Tec
1'09.820 - rocko141415
1'09.880 - Ballstothewall
1'09.939 - SuperT

As you can see the lap times are tight indeed when taking into account that there are actually Division 1, 2 and 3 drivers in that list that have different driving abilities and driving styles. This is a clear indication that the differences in driving ability and driving style is reduced at MW in order to see more clearly what the setup is doing as against the driver.

With TM we wouldn't be able to get this. I know even before this event starts that the lap times at TM would be no where near as close because with such a techincal track as TM is compared to MW, driving ability/driving style will mask the final result.

Sphinx · Dec 18, 2006

Sorry for going on guys, I will stop soon

but I forgot to mention something important.

With the Caterham Seven Fireblade there is a NTSC/PAL issue. After some testing I did some months ago I found that the NTSC version of the game has an advantage over PAL. I'm not sure exactly where this advantage comes from but it's clear that the NTSC version performs better when going into corners. It could be (I guess PD only knows why or how) that the NTSC version has more grip or overall stability, but there is a difference.

Just thought to mention it so you know beforehand.

AngelCreator · Dec 18, 2006

I don't really care which track we use because I know both of them well.

alrivers · Dec 18, 2006

AngelCreator
I don't really care which track we use because I know both of them well.

what he said! except for knowing the track as well as he does....aaaand I'm about....90% sure :dopey:

I'll just be waiting for the track decision and setups

niky · Dec 18, 2006

Hey, I'm never in here anymore because of work, but it sounds damn interesting. Send me a PM of the set-ups when they're out and I'm in.

I've only been practicing intermittently, so my lap-times might not show much, but I can definitely write "War and Peace". :lol:

RE: Sphinx's points are good... but I think the ability of the Caterham to deal with those "bumps" might be an interesting learning process.

From countless hours with the Caterham and Formula cars on the "Ring", it seems that the stiffer set-ups favor B-Spec drivers, but are a pain in the butt for us "ordinary humans". Set-ups for "bumpy" tracks are often more compromise than outright "grip" settings.

Der Alta · Dec 18, 2006

Sphinx
With the Caterham Seven Fireblade there is a NTSC/PAL issue. After some testing I did some months ago I found that the NTSC version of the game has an advantage over PAL. I'm not sure exactly where this advantage comes from but it's clear that the NTSC version performs better when going into corners. It could be (I guess PD only knows why or how) that the NTSC version has more grip or overall stability, but there is a difference.

Just thought to mention it so you know beforehand.

Sphinx, that issue is actually a moot point, as the only perosn your really racing, is your self. We're not comparing lap times, but rather your evaluation of a set-up. The lap times are an assist in your comparison of the two set-ups. There need be no discussion of lap times, only differences in lap times.

As for track, I do agree that Midfield is a simpler track, with less to take into account. This would assist us in our evaluation, as a complex track gives rise to considerably more variables that can be accounted for. In a scientific experiment, the less vairables, the better as it makes for a cleaner hypothesis at the end.

In this regard, I'd like to use Midfield as it a very well known track, it is simple, and it would best fit our evaluation.

I have both set-ups at this time, and am prepping a PM to all of you, as soon as I get a final clarification from the Two set-up providers. As it stands, the saet-up providers do not know who set-up A is, and who Set-up 1 is. They've not been informed of any description of either.

There will be "Set-up 1" and "Set-up A". After a suitable amount of laps, post your thoughts and evaluation in this thread. Suitable is defined by you, weather it be 15 or 150 laps in each set-up.

PM going out shortly. Yes, Cracker, I'll add you to the list.

Thanks,

Der Alta

TheCracker · Dec 18, 2006

Are you still looking for lab rats?

- i've just started playing GT4 again and it's the set-up side of things that interests me at the moment.

VTRacing · Dec 18, 2006

I might run both tracks...

To assist with my "War and Peace" effort, of course.

daan · Dec 18, 2006

VTRacing
I might run both tracks...

That's not going to help. The setup you receive will only be designed for 1 track.

GT4 Tuning - An interesting little test - Volunteers needed

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