Exclusive Q&A: Hideo Kojima talks Metal Gear Solid 4
by GamePro Staff | 01/19/2007 | 2:56:35 PM PST
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GamePro editors Vicious Sid and Mr. Marbles recently had the pleasure of speaking with the most mysterious man in video games, Metal Gear Solid creator and director Hideo Kojima.
Kojima talked at length about his upcoming PlayStation 3 game Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots, as well as his thoughts on the next-gen console war and the video game industry in general.
The following is a transcript based on our talks. Special thanks to Mr. Kojima's translator, Aki Saito, for his help in the interview.
PAGE 2: On Blu-ray, PS3, and the future of Metal Gear
GamePro: I'd first like to thank you for taking the time to meet us, it's a great pleasure. Obviously MGS4 looked fantastic at the show. The gameplay and the trailer looked very promising.
So I thought we open up with some questions concerning the storyline of MGS4.
[Kojima grins and chuckles.]
GP: We were looking at various influences and inspirations to the storylines. Have any of the recent events in the Middle East inspired the storyline in MGS 4?
Kojima: The Middle East is just an entry to the storyline, and this time Snake travels all around the world, so it's not necessarily just the Middle East.
Well of course, since the setting is in the Middle East, to that extent, I've been influenced by what is happening today in the world. From a gameplay point of view, many first-person shooters -- the new titles -- will be set in the Middle East, so I have deliberately set the first setting in the Middle East because I want to first show an FPS [influence]...but actually, it is not. At the beginning you may feel it is based on the same old FPS scenarios, but actually it is not and that is deliberately so.
And also, the key concept of MGS 4 is of course "espionage in the battlefield." Meaning, what is a battlefield to people these days? It is of course the Middle East. Therefore we have put that message in. When I was young and I thought about war, it was always about the 1970s and Vietnam. Jungle warfare. Now it's different for everybody. So that is of course an influence, because we have set [MGS4's environment] closer to what the real-life war is.
GP: On a similar note, the game has a grittier, more realistic feel. It seems as though many of the characters are gearing up for war -- even Meryl! Is this your vision of World War III?
Kojima: Actually at first, yes. I kind of had that vision in mind. Because in the past Metal Gear series, it was just like battles popped up here and there. But this time, it's the last entry in the series, the finale. We thought that we needed to scale up the whole storyline, so of course World War III was the vision there. Snake cannot go into outer space, you know, to make the story scale bigger. However, my thinking was that warfare was not going in that direction, so the direction we took was Private Military Companies (PMCs) or people fighting for other countries. So it's not actually a World War III, but it is in that direction.
Also, I put at little sarcasm there. Though the theme this time is geared towards a big war, it's not a typical war that we've experienced. In World War I or World War II, countries allied together and fought against other countries that allied together. There's a war economy that exists [in MGS4's world], meaning that it is a war about companies versus companies, almost. So that's a hidden sarcasm that we put in.
GP: Concerning the Metal Gear mechs that have been so prominent in prior games, can we expect them to make a return, or is the focus on the bio-mechanical walkers we've seen in the trailers?
Kojima: Secret. [laughs]
GP: We saw Snake inject himself with something in one of the trailers. What is the injection, and does it tie into his aged condition?
Kojima: [laughs]. Actually yes, that is one reason. There's another meaning, but I'm sorry but I can't say, because it really affects the plot of the story.
I did Tokyo Game Show for three days in a row, and I had like seven stages, and seven radio programs per day, so that's what [doing the math]....let's just say they're garlic shots! [laughs; garlic shots are a health fad in Japan].
GP: Are injections a gameplay element in Metal Gear Solid 4?
Kojima: Not so much. It has a little bit of friction against first-party [Sony] rules. At first, I had plans to have this injection as a player's item. But with the ratings, and even team members [questioning that direction], we decided not to do that. In the story, the injection is one of the keys.
GP: Let's switch to gameplay. It seems that in MGS4, you're hiding out in the open versus hiding around corners and behind objects. Are the enemies smart enough to look in the obvious places where Snake might be camouflaged?
Kojima: This is a very good question. We are 'adjusting' right now [laughs]. What I can say is that this will probably have more to do with enemy emotions. For instance, if an enemy is in panic mode, he will not be searching everywhere because he wants to run away. But if he's really calm, steady, and he wants to find every hiding place...he might do that. I can say that for now.
GP: What can the player do to make enemies panic, or to change their emotional state in general?
Kojima: You're very sharp with your questions, but I cannot reveal everything. But for example, if you shoot the ground at an enemy's feet without hitting him, then that enemy might get scared. So that's one way to change his emotion.
And another example is, if another enemy is in a group of four and three get killed, according to his personality, he might panic because all of his squad has been killed.
GP: Thank you for the compliment [on "sharp questions"].
Kojima: But I want you to refrain from 'sharp questions'....[big laughter]
GP: Does the OctoCamo suit have weaknesses? Are there ways for enemies to disable it? Does it leave any tell-tale clues for the enemy?
Kojima: Well it's not actually about enemies in front of Snake, because the enemies are not necessarily always after Snake this time. You're in a battlefield, meaning that Snake can be an enemy or ally to the other characters, from the player's point of view. The player who is controlling Snake could decide to kill the 'Enemy A' squad a lot. In that case, Snake will get spotted by Enemy A squad a lot and they'll attack him.
But this OctoCamo puts a wide variation of sneaking into the game; you don't necessarily have to use it to hide from enemies. It's your option as to how you sneak in the battlefield. Oct-cam is not an almighty tool, because it's not going to make you invisible. If you get spotted once, it'll be more obvious because you're not going to blend in. This is not a super item that you can use to make yourself invisible.
GP: The OctoCamo suit was named for the octopus, for shape shifting and the like. Would the suit allow Snake to take on the appearance of an enemy soldier altogether?
Kojima: No, it won't. An octopus is an octopus, and it will remain an octopus, so it cannot become a dog. But an octopus might mimic the dog's hair...
GP: So if you're not in a battle, this sounds like a good way to pass through a large, open area with lots of fighting unnoticed.
Kojima: Yes and no. I'm not saying that OctoCamo is the only tool is used; it's just one aspect of sneaking. Of course I want you to play using OctoCamo, but it's only one aspect of sneaking.
In the trailer, Snake was hiding as a normal troop of the people. Think of OctoCamo that way; he kind of blends in with the troops. He blends in with the background. It just means he won't get spotted right away...please don't misunderstand that OctoCamo is the central gimmick for MGS4, that's not the case. It's just another option for the player.
If you're in the front line of the warzone, you don't have to wear anything -- you could maybe just run across, like on a real battlefield. In order to accomplish the theme of 'no place to hide', the OctoCamo is a handy tool. I'd like players to find for themselves the best way to accomplish a sneaking mission, and [OctoCamo] is just one way. I want players to decide whether Snake blends into the battlefield to take a shortcut, or avoids the warzone to accomplish his goal.
GP: Will Snake still have his standard suite of stealth moves from the other games? Will the control scheme be familiar to fans of the series?
Kojima: Yes, with one exception. He will not face the wall [mimes the classic Snake 'gun pose' with his back against the wall]. That will not be in the game anymore.
GP: Any particular reason for dropping that pose?
Kojima: The reason is...it's been said over and over by our supervisor that [the signature Snake pose] rarely happens on the battlefield. Nobody is, you know, 'cool' enough to hide like that. However, I put that move in to express a movie-like feeling. But not anymore.
There's another reason for changing that. It's much better: like in real life, Snake can hide behind something, then sneak a peak and shoot. There are more actions to it, and it's more smooth that way than having Snake put his back to the wall.
GP: Good point. We were curious if MGS4 would use the motion-sensing capabilities of the PS3 Sixaxis controller, possibly to sneak a peak while hiding.
Kojima: Yes, we'll use the motion sensor of the PS3 controller. But I cannot reveal how you use it at the moment.
GP: What was your reaction to the PS3 controller no longer have a rumble feature? Was adding motion sensing a worthy tradeoff?
Kojima: I really miss the rumble feature, and I already said to Mr. Kutaragi that I want the rumble feature back.
GP: We've seen footage of new moves for Snake. In one scene, played dead and slowly squirmed across the ground towards some enemies. How might the player use a move like that?
Kojima: I can't say so much about that...and it's not just because I can't reveal anything of the game's storyline. There's kind of a secrecy there. I put in those movements to widen the gameplay feeling for users, to give more actions.
At the same time, I wanted the players to synchronize with Snake. He's kind of old -- he's going to die soon. But he has to pretend he's dead, or crawl on the ground...something no typical hero would do. It's taboo. I wanted players to get the feeling of being Snake, to synchronize with his emotions.
GP: Given Snake's condition, is he degraded from his abilities in the last games? Perhaps in endurance, or hand-to-hand combat?
Kojima: Actually, yes. But we didn't want to put the stress to the users...so he's wearing a kind of muscle suit. So he can move just like he did in MGS2 or 3. But in the storyline, he's old, and not as sharp as he was before. But in the game, he moves just like you'd expect.
GP: Is the game a linear or non-linear experience?
Kojima: If I say that, it will reveal some of the secrets. You'll probably want to ask who that young-looking Snake is in the trailer, right?
GP: Stealth seems to be a focus in the game, but will you be dealing with large crowds of enemies or smaller groups of enemies?
Kojima: You're exactly right, I'm not heading towards that direction [of large groups of enemies at once].
GP: Is fooling non-human enemies a larger focus this time?
Kojima: The enemies will be humans and machines this time.
GP: Besides the OctoCamo suit's camouflage, what other abilities does the suit give Snake?
Kojima: It's like the camouflage system from before, so players can have fun with it. If you like a texture, you could play with that texture. It doesn't mean that you have to use it to hide; the fun element is there as well.
GP: From the trailers and the 'nowhere to hide' tag, it seems like action may be front and center. Will the game focus more on action or on stealth?
Kojima: Of course, the basic [core] is a stealth game. This will not change. However, if you want "super action," you could select that according to your path...but you have to be well prepared.
Exclusive Q&A: Hideo Kojima talks Metal Gear Solid 4 (page 2 of 2)
by GamePro Staff | 01/19/2007 | 12:00:35 PM PST
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GP: Will players be able to play as Raiden?
Kojima: Are you suggesting that the players should play as Raiden? [laughs]
GP: Well, that question was provided by one of our editors back in the States...he's very excited about using Raiden's sword.
Kojima: I don't want to repeat the same faults from MGS2, so it will not happen.
GP: Will swords or other hand-to-hand combat weapons be a factor for Snake?
Kojima: Yes. And you'll be surprised by the number of weapons that he will use. And you can customize your weapons by putting attachments and upgrades on them.
GP: Would that include [attachments like] silencers and lights and laser sights?
Kojima: Yes. Grenade launchers, scopes.... We have a sort of geeky maniac of military weapons on our team. I can't keep up with him! For the game design, I don't do [intricate weapon design] -- I leave it up to those guys on the team to make attachments and so on.
GP: Will you be able to use multiple attachments per gun -- more than just one or two?
Kojima: You'll be really surprised by how many variations are possible. It's not like anything you've seen in past Metal Gear games before.
GP: How will players get these weapon mods? Will they find them, buy them, make them, or trade them?
Kojima: Excellent question. [laughs] And I can't answer it. [more laughs] Please wait a little more, because that answer is tied to the story and plot.
GP: Is there any possibility that these customizations could be traded online or from player to player in some way?
Kojima: Yes.
GP: Could you elaborate more on the hand-to-hand weapons? That seems to be an interesting addition to the series.
Kojima: That's very difficult to explain right now, because that gives away a little bit of how you...complete the game, actually.
GP: Hmm. You said something about Squad A and Squad B earlier; will the game have a great deal of replayability, giving players a different experience each time?
Kojima: Actually, "replay value" is kind of the old thinking, I think. The game will play differently according to the player, is the bottom line. Whether you team up with Country A, you could fight Country B. If Country A wins with you, you could possibly progress easier. Or vice-versa, possibly.
You could also look at the circumstances of current events. So you first thought you were teaming up with A, but then you think "oh, I shouldn't be with A...I should be with B." You could change that instantly, meaning that the circumstances and the situation always change according to how you play.
So, for instance, say there's a front line ahead of you, Country B. And you're kind of new to Country A, and they have a tank...you can walk with their tank, hide behind it, in order to defeat Country B.
Of course, in that circumstance, you might need to protect the A tank, so you'd have to destroy Enemy B's anti-tank launcher. The player will always have a choice about what he or she should do according to the circumstances. That's just an example.
GP: Are you planning to head into futuristic territory, with laser and plasma guns, or will weapons be more realistic?
Kojima: If you're specifying about weapons, there will be loads of weapons as we know today in the military, there will be imaginary weapons, and there will be some new real weapons that we've never seen but are really in progress at the moment.
But yes, I would like to stick to a certain extent to [a more realistic arsenal]. However, I might throw in a couple of weapons because I think they're interesting game design...like, for instance, in MGS1 there was a remote-controllable missile. And that's because it was fun in the game, so I may add other weapons like that for MGS4.
GP: We've been holding off on asking this, but we can't wait any longer: what are your plans for online and Metal Gear Solid 4?
Kojima: Well, actually, Sony has not really spoken with us about their online plans. What I have is Metal Gear Online, and I'm always thinking of how we can conduct this plan on the Sony platform.
One example is the PSP game Metal Gear Solid: Portable Ops. That's, in a way, one our plans for MGO that we have in mind. It's not about the platform. In an ideal MGO world, no matter what the platform is -- PC, Xbox 360, PS3, handheld, Wii -- we wish that we could create a kind of community where everyone can play. That's kind of the MGO way of thinking.
GP: With games becoming more expensive and bigger, do you feel obligated to cram an online mode in MGS4? Or is there still a place for single-player-only games?
Kojima: Well, I think both online and single-player. Online has its [advantages], but at the same time, the single-player mode lets people concentrate for hours and hours to become heroes, or gain something else from the game. I think there's a lot to put in there as well. So online and single-player are two separate things that are important.
GP: Is there a possibility MGS4 will not have an integrated multiplayer mode? Following in the footsteps of MGS3, which released multiplayer later on another disc?
Kojima: That's something I can't say right now because... we're considering it, actually.
GP: Do you have any plans for PSP-to-PS3 interoperability between Mobile Ops and MGS4?
Kojima: Yes, of course.
GP: Are you willing to share a bit about how that would work? Would it be a separate view, like a radar view, or would it have a collection element?
Kojima: Obviously, at this stage it's very difficult to share that.
GP: Is 1080p a goal for Metal Gear Solid 4? Do you think 1080p is an important feature to have?
Kojima: In that sense, the answer is simple: we're not really insistent on sticking to HD. We're not the ones who are saying we want HD. We want something really pretty on a very small screen. But 360 and PS3 don't allow that because HD is kind of a must-have...
I'm not interested, myself, about HD at all. Because if it gets prettier and prettier with more details, that means more mistakes [on the game development side].
As you know, MGS games tend not to care about how clean the screen looks. It's more about the atmosphere that we give it. Meaning, once we create graphics in a scene, we deliberately make them look dirtier to give the atmosphere more life. My team and I think that high-res is not needed for the next two or three years.
GP: On that note, do you have any fantasies about working with the Wii, which doesn't use HD graphics?
Kojima: Wii! [laughs] Yes, I will do it. I'm saying this every day. [laughs] But first, I have to face this giant that is called Metal Gear Solid 4, so until I'm finished with that, I can't do anything.
GP: Back to PS3 hardware: has it been challenging to work with the PS3 Cell CPU?
Kojima: Of course I don't actually work with all the programs, so I can't tell you specifically what's difficult. But overall I think it is difficult, of course. But if it's easy and simple, then how can you differentiate from other games? Other people will do the same thing as you. Therefore, we're trying to use [the Cell's] difficulty to create something different.
If I say too much, Mr. Kutaragi might get really upset. I think that the PS3 is difficult to work with, but so was the PS2.
GP: Is MGS4 still planned as an exclusive PS3 game? Do you have any interest in Xbox 360 development?
Kojima: Well, yes, I do have strong interest in creating something for the Xbox 360. In the US and Europe, it is selling, and I think it will sell a lot this year as well. I'm a fan of Gears of War as well, it's very interesting.
Frankly speaking, I want to create something on the PC. It's a multi-platform [format]. I've been regularly studying work on the PC anyways, and I want to provide something as a world-wide platform because of the consequences with timing on the PlayStation platforms, MGS4 is actually for the PS3 only so far.
GP: Speaking as a PC gamer, I'd love to see you work on a PC project.
Kojima: I want to do it. But our staff, especially the younger ones, don't so much like to work on the PC. If it was PC, we don't have to go into some crappy things with the first parties (Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo).
GP: The majority of MGS fans love the rendered cut scenes, but there's a vocal minority who feel that they are too long or too frequent and interrupt the experience. Have these complaints influenced the cinemas in MGS4?
Kojima: Actually, every time I make a game, I am always influenced by all this feedback, and I personally think that the cutscenes are long as well. We are not creating a movie.
But we [didn't make cinemas shorter] because we might lessen the emotional factor or fail to give enough explanation to the users. So it happens to be that length. This time, yes, I am thinking about making them shorter.
Actually, one example is in Zone of Enders 2. Good players shoot before they notice the difference between the different enemies, meaning that it doesn't matter how much effort we put into creating new characters. So we deliberately added cut-scenes to show new characters or enemies. Games are like this -- sometimes we need to explain the differences and things like that.
Kojima: This time, for MGS4, the cinemas might be long. But according to our original plan right now, it's much less than past series.
GP: Half-Life and even MGS3 contained "living" cutscenes, where the player can do as he chooses as the story unfolds. Are you interested in interactive storytelling, or more the traditional cinematic approach?
Kojima: Of course I'm interested. And of course MGS4 will be as interactive as possible...that's one reason why we do [cinemas] in real time. If we're allowed to just show something pretty, we can show that in a movie scene.
GP: Resistance: Fall of Man uses 22 GB [edit: recently changed to 16 GB] of Blu-ray storage. Is that necessary for next-gen development? Is that massive storage something you'll need to make MGS4?
Kojima: Right away. We'll need more.
GP: We recently spoke with Sony's Phil Harrison, who told us that he thinks PS3 games will soon use 50 GB. Do you agree with that prediction?
Kojima: Yes, I do. It's high-def, and just to make it high-def, the data requirements are huge.
Back in the days when I was working on 8-bit, 1 MB ROMs came out and I thought, "wow, great!" But it wasn't enough. When the CD-ROM came out, we thought we had so much space. But when we started to add sound, there was a lack of storage already. Even Blu-ray, I don't even feel that it expanded data so much. With cinematic, the space fills up right away. You may hear Blu-ray is huge, gigantic, 20 GB or so, but that's not really that big to us. One basic [gameplay] frame with HD and 5.1 takes up so much space that the capacity will become too small in no time. If we maintain the same level of graphics and sound as the PS2, then Blu-ray is spacious. But that's not the case.
GP: Is that intimidating for a developer to have to work with so much storage? Do you worry about being buried under a mountain of data?
Kojima: I don't care so much about the space. In the past, we spent so much time creating programs for compressing. But now, we don't have to do that so much. So in that sense, it's gotten a little easier.
GP: If you ever made an Xbox 360, would you find it difficult to work with because it uses a standard DVD?
Kojima: It's not necessarily challenging or difficult, it's just a matter of how we do it. It might be a couple of discs, or possibly a new form of dual-layer.
GP: Our readers are very curious about the whereabouts of the returning characters, like Otacon and Meryl. Can you elaborate on what role they fill in MGS4?
Kojima: I can't really say...they'll be plenty more to come. It'll be almost like a class reunion. [laughter] And I think it's not good right now to say something about what they have done, and what has happened to them, just for the fun of it. So I'd rather not say anything.
GP: Obviously, the E3 trailer hinted at a 2007 release date. Are you shooting for a release at the end of the year, or the summer?
Kojima: We don't know, because the guy who said 2007 was Raiden, and not me. [laughter]
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