FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

  • Thread starter Scaff
  • 8,743 comments
  • 538,626 views
boxox
It continues to amaze that anyone takes these guys seriously :)
Click to expand...

Well there about the only guys who have the privilege to all wheels and some we don't have yet.

That said, and I'm sorry for off topic.
The Dirt 3 review done it for me. That was my disappointment of 2011.

Mind you metacritic had/has it as the top PS3 sim type racer you can get.

Opinions eh.
 
Hotspitta
New footage off the GTO on TGTT (No invisible walls!!:)
Click to expand...

Nice find.

There is a roll over in that video. I suspect someone might have a lot to say about that.
 
Zer0
You mean visually? It's obvious that GT5 tyre simulation take in account a lot of unadvertised things wich are not represented visually. For example in the replays you can see the pressure of the tyres compressing in bumps but the tyre is not see deforming in real time, it clips in the ground and bounce according to the weight applied.
Click to expand...

(ed - sorry cut this bit and then went looking for where it was and found it was in the same message I already replied to :P)

Giving a tyre a spring/damper rate is different from having a meaningful simulation of pressure. Does it change the contact patch shape? Tyre stiffness? Does it influence heating and vice versa? I feel like there is an approach here that attributes anything not exposed or testable to magic woo and results in simple handwaving rather than testing. Is it really the simplest explanation here to assume that a variety of unknown parameters are actually simulated, but ineffable somehow, just because it's "more advanced" than the last game? Really?

Zer0
All that details were never publicited in GT games like are in Forza(active aero, tire physics, Hz, etc), most times the simulation details are only revealed when someone ask directly to Kaz for it in interviews. Some people assume that if is not known or shown in a menu is because do not exist and that's wrong. GT4 cars had over 300 physics parameters, how many of those are made public? GT5 is running in a new more complex engine.
Click to expand...

Well, I would hate to give the impression that physics engines are merely about the number of parameters, but 300 is about ~600 less than you would find on a PC game of the time :)

I don't know about that article - it kind of sounds a lot like a guy talking through his hat to me. Does anyone have a full scan? It's all very well to talk about taking cars of of museums ... but if we get to a point where two full iterations later there still isn't a car in the game that so much as matches the real car's skidpad g number then what are we to make of it?

Awesome game, great job?

Maybe not?

That's the problem with Forza, it checks boxes yes, but the core is not up to par.

It's easy to convince anyone with a list of favourable features(theory) but is very hard to keep thinking that FM3 is a better sim once you try both games with the same cars, same track, no aids, low grip tyres and steering wheels(practice).

A completely different animals regarding handling realism, individual car authenticity and steering inputs, the very basics of a driving sim.
Click to expand...

Are you talking about GT5 here? :)
 
Last edited:
Spagetti69
The Dirt 3 review done it for me. That was my disappointment of 2011.

Mind you metacritic had/has it as the top PS3 sim type racer you can get.

Opinions eh.
Click to expand...

When those videos came out of 1st places in Dirt 3 without even so much as needing to brake it made me think back to this:

Now Shift 2 has a wide entryway for anyone wanting to race. It will inherently draw in some of the crowd mesmerized by Hot Pursuit and thus with the right settings you can play the game with a lot of assistance and a little more recklessly than someone looking for authenticity might. But as you turn off certain assists and allow for realistic damage modeling and turn off the track-assist line, things become a little more realistic. Some of the more arcade-centric writers at the event noticeably squirmed when they said that even with all the assists on, Shift 2 is still a title where you’re going to “have to brake.”
Click to expand...

And I thought, "well, that certainly explains a lot" :)
 
My breakdown of this whole discussion:

Forza 3 simulates a lot more under the hood, but doesn't 'feel' as realistic to drive.
GT5 is lacking in simulation, but 'feels' more realistic to drive.

From this 'feel,' people are making massive assumptions that it instantly means the underlying physics are better.

So it looks like as long as you make a racing game 'feel' right, it doesn't matter what it is actually simulating underneath (I think that's the big one. People will more happily ignore the things that are wrong if it feels right).

There really isn't THAT big a difference between how the cars handle in both games, especially not to the level that you can say one is arcade and one is sim...
 
GumShoe
From this 'feel,' people are making massive assumptions that it instantly means the underlying physics are better.
Click to expand...

Well, yeah, I think that is true. One major problem I have with this 'feel' thing, though, is that, for 90% of the people, it doesn't matter whether it feels realistic, it just matters whether it does what they are expecting.

For example, I know a few people who are under the impression that every single RWD car should go sideways if you apply too much throttle. The thought that most (sporty) RWD cars are designed and set up by their engineers to be a bit more understeery in general never crossed their mind...

And, what makes me a bit cautious about assumptions about GT5's physics is that every other developer happily speaks about what's going on in their games, it seems. Slightly Mad Studios did so for Shhift 2, T10 is doing for FM4 and most of the PC sim developers do so anyways. But PD, they're keeping their moughts shut, for whatever reason... I certainly don't think that that's because they've got such an advannced engine going there.

PD, I think, got some fantastic results with what's probably a system that's not nearly as sophisticated or complex as the engines other games incorporate. That by itself is an achievement and nothing to sneeze at, nor would it be something to bash them for. But assuming they've got the best physics engine in there is just a bit much.
 
Luminis
Well, yeah, I think that is true. One major problem I have with this 'feel' thing, though, is that, for 90% of the people, it doesn't matter whether it feels realistic, it just matters whether it does what they are expecting.
Click to expand...

I am confident that 99.9% of the people that play these sims have never been on all of the tracks in question, and have not driven 90% of the cars in the games. I am curious as to how people would know how every car "feels" and every track "feels" and if they are proper.

I have only raced at Road America, and that was in two different "factory" built cars. The rest of my experience has been "driving" most cars normal, on the streets. I have driven, for example, a 2002 Honda Civic (a friends), around town at normal speeds. I would never know when and where the car would experience undesteer and oversteer. While the cars I have owned I have driven much harder than that, most of them have not even been in the game.

The fact is, if someone tells you that the GTO just doesn't feel right, they are pulling your leg. We all have an idea, in our own minds, as to HOW we THINK it should feel and respond, but we would never know unless we took the car to THAT track, with the same weather conditions, same humidity, same track condition, with the same number of vehicles on the track.

Nobody knows how accurate or inaccurate any of these sims are...at least in driving feel and physic response.
 
Bogie 19th
Nobody knows how accurate or inaccurate any of these sims are...at least in driving feel and physic response.
Click to expand...

One of the members of my small driving-community is a Croatian vice-champion in rally, he also drove numerous hill-climbs, asphalt rallies, drove hundreds of national and international races in rally and road and naturally he cloaked thousands of kilometers on race tracks driving many race-prepped machines.

We discussed many times regarding exactly that - how accurate can handling and tire-response are based on his experience and feeling of what car/tires are doing.

Of all games he drives and has driven, he finds Richard Burns Rally as having the best weight-physics ever created. However, as far as actual feel of handling is concerned, he praises only Gran Turismo, but with some constraints > he highlights RUF BTR and RUF Yellow Bird on Sport Hard/Medium tires compound as being the closest to real life he ever experienced virtually.

For all other games he says that although they can be more attractive/have more options/more pronounced some effects, none of them actually captures the "simulation" of actual handling as GT does with S1 and S2 tire compounds. He notes that all other games just nullify the twitches of high-powered cars produced when pushing to the limit and that level of actual grip is just too great. He highlights how lateral movement and weight-transfer in all other games is being deliberately toned-down (or made wrong).

Interesting is how he praises the work done by PD in tire-department, but also with some constraints. He finds all compounds in "Racing" class too grippy and he concludes they were made in order to make game more playable. He finds that level of snap, grip and peak of real-life racing tires is perfectly simulated with S2 (Sports Medium) compound on stock cars, while S3 is the real-life equivalent of performance for race cars.

As for driving on edge with "normal" tires, he highlights N3 and S1 compounds, although he personally finds N2 (Comfort Medium) being closest to grip levels of street tires when being driven on street car (without any race prep).

BTW, this is one very beautiful screenshot for many visible and not-so-visible reasons ;)

displayimage.php
 
Bogie 19th
Nobody knows how accurate or inaccurate any of these sims are...at least in driving feel and physic response.
Click to expand...

Yup. At best, you get some educated guestimating here and there. Of course, some people will claim that they know how a car would react from watching videos and reviews, but I would hardly consider that to be more than just that, a guestimation. Rear wheel driven cars are the best example... "What?! The 135i understeers in FM3? That has to be totally wrong!"

There's only a fistful of people who I'd trust when it comes to truly rating the authenticity of the physics in a game properly, and those are usually not spending their time with video game reviews (and they're usually not found on forums, either... At least not if you're after an unbiased opinion, from my experience).

Actually, it's a bit sad that I know of only car magazin doing a review (Car and Driver), so getting more than one opinion on the topic is a bit complicated. At least when it comes to reviewers that have actually enough experience with a multitude of cars to be able to judge whether it feels realistic or not.
 
Luminis
Actually, it's a bit sad that I know of only car magazin doing a review (Car and Driver), so getting more than one opinion on the topic is a bit complicated. At least when it comes to reviewers that have actually enough experience with a multitude of cars to be able to judge whether it feels realistic or not.
Click to expand...

And even then with C&D, the editor/author writing the article probably hasn't driven the majority of the cars in the game, especially the racing series cars...and if they have, it surely wasn't in the presence of 16 other racers.

As was said earlier by another poster....these games are continually trying to add features found in real life, therefore giving them simulation features. How close they mimic real life is actually left up to the professional racers who race for a living.
 
Bogie 19th
And even then with C&D, the editor/author writing the article probably hasn't driven the majority of the cars in the game, especially the racing series cars...and if they have, it surely wasn't in the presence of 16 other racers.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's nowhere near perfect, of course, just one of the better sources to get an opinion from.

Don't get me wrong, IGN and Gamespot and whatnot are quite useful, as I do want to know how well the game does as, well, a game, but the simulation part is probably best left to guys who at least have some experience with the real deal.

Then there's the guys at ISR. They claim to be sim racing specialits or something, but I hardly believe they've driven many cars on a track... All they can do is compare simulator to each other - which might be useful in its own right, but I won't count on them to make a reliable judgment as far as authenticity is concerned. So, them mentioning how Forza delivers the best physics and whatnot on a console is nice and I would be happy if it was true, but I have a hard time buying that :lol:
 
I agree with everything you said Luminis. Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining by any means. I wouldn't want my life without racing sims because I truly do enjoy them. Having only raced a select number of cars at RA for some years, and driving consumer cars at speed limits mostly, I am by no means a seasoned veteran of how all these cars and tracks should behave.

I remember even way back in highschool when I was street racing Monte Carlo SS with transplanted 350s, against Torino's, Chevelles, Cutlasses and more. Boy did we think we were king ##$ back then. God those cars performed horribly other than straight line, lol!
 
So on another board, a GT fan who's on my friends list went off to take some shots in the game's replay photo mode (not photo travel) and he came across the same LM-R model that I posted.

For reference:
CircuitdelaSarthe2009_3.jpg


I won't post the photo travel mode, we've seen it and it's not the point I'm trying to get at. What was surprising to both of us is that another BBS wheel, the RE-MG, actually DOES have bolts modeled in race replay's photo mode (not photo travel):

5929105364_1285918d5b_z.jpg


He brought up a good point. Maybe the LM-R was a placeholder that PD never got to finish up properly, or that they tossed in the 2D face due to time constraints. He went on taking a few replay photo shots of aftermarket wheels on premiums and the 5 images he had showed clearly that there were no 2D textures for bolts, that the bolts were actually modeled in replay photo mode. Strange findings for sure though. 2 BBS wheels, 1 has 2D bolts (LM-R) while the other has it fully modeled in 3D in race replay photo modes.
 
Bogie 19th
Were any of those standards? Why did none of them have any underbody graphics?

I took this picture in game:

Grand%252520Valley%252520East.jpg


And as you can see, there is underbody detail. I have never flipped a car in GT5 yet, so I had never seen that.

Also, those videos do show that camber is present as are shocks/suspension, which is pretty cool. However, I just laughed my butt off after seeing that video lol!
Click to expand...

So no reply to this? Does anyone know why the bottoms of the cars don't exist in that youtube video of the replays, but the bottom shows up in the replay photos?
 
Bogie 19th
So no reply to this? Does anyone know why the bottoms of the cars don't exist in that youtube video of the replays, but the bottom shows up in the replay photos?
Click to expand...

I just took a quick glance at the video again, and at least the first three cars are standard models, so they don't have the underside modelled.
 
Luminis
Well, standard rims and premium rims, eh? Not that suprising, is it?
Click to expand...

No this is a little different. Look back a few pages. These are 'premium' wheels as only premium cars can get aftermarket wheels. The quality of the images is almost night and day when you look at race replay photo mode and photo travel. The LM-R has 2D bolt texture but the RE-MG has 3D model bolts, both in replay photo mode. In photo travel, both are a much higher detail and the LM-R adds 3D modeled bolts to the face whereas the RE-MG's 3D model gets a bump up. Just strange and surprising how 2 BBS wheels are handled differently. Maybe it's just that PD forgot to finish up the LM-R for race replay.
 
cuco33
No this is a little different. Look back a few pages. These are 'premium' wheels as only premium cars can get aftermarket wheels. The quality of the images is almost night and day when you look at race replay photo mode and photo travel. The LM-R has 2D bolt texture but the RE-MG has 3D model bolts, both in replay photo mode. In photo travel, both are a much higher detail and the LM-R adds 3D modeled bolts to the face whereas the RE-MG's 3D model gets a bump up. Just strange and surprising how 2 BBS wheels are handled differently. Maybe it's just that PD forgot to finish up the LM-R for race replay.
Click to expand...

I think you got me wrong there, my bad, I wasn't very clear :lol:
I just meant that, among the rims you can put on a premium car, there are standard rims like the LM-R and premium rums like the RE-MG ;)

I for one wouldn't be suprised to see a bit of disparity there as well, maybe they've recycled some of GT4's photo mode rims for race replays and such in GT5. We'd have to compare the actual wheel selection of both games to see whether there's any kind of connection to GT4, though.

I'm just wondering whether there are more wheels like that, or whether that's all there is.
 
Ah, gotcha lol.

Not sure if other wheels are like that. I tend not to use mostly BBS wheels but have used Volks and Rays in the past. Not really a fan of the wheels that suit the JDM market.

Personal opinion, as much as I like the RE-MG, LM-R > RE-MG :P
 
Hehe, yeah, I can see where you're coming from... The BBS LM-R is probably one of my favourite wheel as well. Among things like the SSR Professor SP1 or the Gram Lights 57S Pro and the Volk Racing TE37...

I sure hope to get those wheels in FM4 :lol:

Bogie 19th
Ok good. Just making sure. I thought the Rover was premium though?
Click to expand...
No, there are no premium SUVs pickups or trucks in GT5, unless they have been added recently I didn't notice that.
 

Similar threads

SlipZtrEm
Forza 6 vs Other Games - Physics Discussion Thread
5 6 7
Replies
192
Views
20K
TeamCZRRacing
TeamCZRRacing
Famine
  • Locked
Gran Turismo 7 Update 1.54 Prediction & Discussion Thread
11 12 13
Replies
371
Views
85K
Lomic
Lomic
Famine
F1 23 Discussion Thread
2 3
Replies
62
Views
10K
RACECAR
RACECAR
Nacho Libre
FM PC settings after update 13
Replies
0
Views
1K
Nacho Libre
Nacho Libre
Chris30
Post your Iconic Videos Here/CE Discussion
Replies
3
Views
932
Chris30
Chris30

Latest Posts

Back