FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)
- Thread starter Scaff
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- 10,403
- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
Hotspitta
Not really.
- 10,403
- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
Hotspitta
I don't know what that says mate it's blank on my iPhone.
Maybe someone will explain later.
- 4,038
- United States
An older Forza 1 car list showing Porsche.
- 10,403
- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
Luminis
It was only one person who assumed it I think.
- 9,295
- Duisburg
Probably. And a lot of people jumped on the bandwagon. As usual.
I've been hearring that name quite often... Who's that Badned guy? Is he a T10 employee?
- 1,732
- cuco33
Badned is the main guy over at Forzacentral. He sometimes gets info ahead of time. I remember him teasing on info from I believe Forza 3 pre-release.
I like forzacentral better than fm.net but I tend to lurk there like I used to only lurk here. FM.net... well... Che ruined it for me. When you're community manager spends more time on neogaf forums... freakin NEOGAF forums... more than fm.net's... that to me was a slap to the face. Who cares what the gaf says!?! Plus fm.net is a good site and I've gotten some nice tunes and found some free liveries/vinyl groups from people on there, but they tend to be a bit much on defending Forza and calling anyone a troll when someone points out an issue with the game.. kinda reminds me of here sometimes, only not as bad as over there (and note, it's MUCH better than around FM3's launch)
I like forzacentral better than fm.net but I tend to lurk there like I used to only lurk here. FM.net... well... Che ruined it for me. When you're community manager spends more time on neogaf forums... freakin NEOGAF forums... more than fm.net's... that to me was a slap to the face. Who cares what the gaf says!?! Plus fm.net is a good site and I've gotten some nice tunes and found some free liveries/vinyl groups from people on there, but they tend to be a bit much on defending Forza and calling anyone a troll when someone points out an issue with the game.. kinda reminds me of here sometimes, only not as bad as over there (and note, it's MUCH better than around FM3's launch)
- 164
but they tend to be a bit much on defending Forza and calling anyone a troll when someone points out an issue with the game.. kinda reminds me of here sometimes, only not as bad as over there (and note, it's MUCH better than around FM3's launch)
Well FM.net basically became draconian on stamping down on dissenters, due to the huge outcry of anger and frustration over the loss of the Custom Public Lobbies, that took over FM.net for months after FM3's release.
The Rebellion over the loss of the CPL's just spilled out over from the problems and solutions section and took over the general section as well, loads of people started using the "green fist" logo in there sigs, as the bring back the CPL's campaign swung into force.
The angry CPL thread/s grew in size at an astonishing rate, FM.net became a kinda no go area for guys like Che and Dan, as the disenfranchised FM2 fans had taken up their pitchforks and torches and were out en mass.
Che continued to pour petrol on the fire by avoiding the issue by dismissing the FM2 fans concerns as unimportant or misguided, and when he did comment his remarks were to the effect of "take it or leave", which was a slap in the face for many fans who supported the franchise since FM1.
When the outcry over the CPL's showed no signs of abating, they finally brought out the ban hammer, and banished the most vocal of the CPL supporters like TRC GeorgiaDawg, even i was placed on moderation though they informed me via PM i had broken non of the forum rules, but would remain on moderation.
They re-configured the forum to restrict any complaints to a single thread, but by then most of the most ardent/vocal CPL supporters had either given up and moved on, been banned, or placed on moderation.
So i can see why FM.net isnt as open to dissent as say GTP, they have had their forum effectively taken over with angry FM2 fans which turned the place into a bit of a war zone for a couple of months.
So the management are a bit touchy about dissent over there since then.
- 4,004
- Croatia
Thank you for this true and sad story Mr Fox, sometimes people just don't want to acknowledge the truth behind some things.
I also want to highlight about 2nd wave of protest - post-CPL - when the frist DLC showed how exactly broken whole economy is and how insanely shortminded whole DLC integration/in-game obtaining of purchased DLC content is.
People really love to speak about how Forza have great community management and how good was their DLC support and everything, but in reality both of those "highlights" are pretty much on the other opposite of *great* and *good*.
Also, few of us who continue to speak about the real problems of *hoppers* system and given constructive proposals on NeoGaf - where Che was very polite to be honest - were soon also left completely ignored and soon Che dissapred even from there.
Of course, I do not think it has to do anything with him personaly, probably some greater designer-egos was hurted. I am still very thankful to all the great support he gave prior to release and soon after the very release of FM3 at NG.
I also want to highlight about 2nd wave of protest - post-CPL - when the frist DLC showed how exactly broken whole economy is and how insanely shortminded whole DLC integration/in-game obtaining of purchased DLC content is.
People really love to speak about how Forza have great community management and how good was their DLC support and everything, but in reality both of those "highlights" are pretty much on the other opposite of *great* and *good*.
Also, few of us who continue to speak about the real problems of *hoppers* system and given constructive proposals on NeoGaf - where Che was very polite to be honest - were soon also left completely ignored and soon Che dissapred even from there.
Of course, I do not think it has to do anything with him personaly, probably some greater designer-egos was hurted. I am still very thankful to all the great support he gave prior to release and soon after the very release of FM3 at NG.
- 4,038
- United States
Well FM.net basically became draconian on stamping down on dissenters, due to the huge outcry of anger and frustration over the loss of the Custom Public Lobbies, that took over FM.net for months after FM3's release.
The Rebellion over the loss of the CPL's just spilled out over from the problems and solutions section and took over the general section as well, loads of people started using the "green fist" logo in there sigs, as the bring back the CPL's campaign swung into force.
The angry CPL thread/s grew in size at an astonishing rate, FM.net became a kinda no go area for guys like Che and Dan, as the disenfranchised FM2 fans had taken up their pitchforks and torches and were out en mass.
Che continued to pour petrol on the fire by avoiding the issue by dismissing the FM2 fans concerns as unimportant or misguided, and when he did comment his remarks were to the effect of "take it or leave", which was a slap in the face for many fans who supported the franchise since FM1.
When the outcry over the CPL's showed no signs of abating, they finally brought out the ban hammer, and banished the most vocal of the CPL supporters like TRC GeorgiaDawg, even i was placed on moderation though they informed me via PM i had broken non of the forum rules, but would remain on moderation.
They re-configured the forum to restrict any complaints to a single thread, but by then most of the most ardent/vocal CPL supporters had either given up and moved on, been banned, or placed on moderation.
So i can see why FM.net isnt as open to dissent as say GTP, they have had their forum effectively taken over with angry FM2 fans which turned the place into a bit of a war zone for a couple of months.
So the management are a bit touchy about dissent over there since then.
While all of this is true (and pretty pathetic), the crowd there now posting are aces for the most part. The problem now is that the performance and layout is probably one of the worst forums on the internet.
- 563
I agree the Forum is terrible.
- 1,732
- cuco33
Mr. Fox, thanks for the update on what happened over there. To me, to be honest... Che as the community manager should have been working with the FORZA community on their official forums, NOT the NeoGAF community. If it was Dan's fault then I'll blame Dan 100% for Che's actions but it was ridiculous that info was being mentioned for the first time on freakin NeoGAF and not on fm.net.
There's politically correct ways to handle such an outbreak of backlash. Basically don't promise anything, voice your appreciation for the community wanting the feature and make up some excuse like 'we are discussing bringing CPL's to FM3 but no promises'. In the end they can say 'we decided at this time that CPL's will not make it to the game' and be done, would buy them a few months easy. There's got to be a reason why T10 decided not to put it into FM3, and I'm guessing it's due to many lobbies being 2-3 cars max or something.
Since FM.net is T10's official Forza site, they probably didn't want any trolling going on as well as limit any negative talk. I know they had their share of folks signing up just to bash Forza for no reason at all. It's not like here or forzacentral where these sites are fan sites, not official publisher/developer game sites. I'm banned from BD's main site with some of my posts being deleted even and I was asking some basic questions regarding compatibility at the time with hardware. Don't worry though, I've been banned from certain sites, wrongfully with posts deleted, when asking legitimate non-trolling questions on things and they were the main official sites, not fan sites.
There's politically correct ways to handle such an outbreak of backlash. Basically don't promise anything, voice your appreciation for the community wanting the feature and make up some excuse like 'we are discussing bringing CPL's to FM3 but no promises'. In the end they can say 'we decided at this time that CPL's will not make it to the game' and be done, would buy them a few months easy. There's got to be a reason why T10 decided not to put it into FM3, and I'm guessing it's due to many lobbies being 2-3 cars max or something.
Since FM.net is T10's official Forza site, they probably didn't want any trolling going on as well as limit any negative talk. I know they had their share of folks signing up just to bash Forza for no reason at all. It's not like here or forzacentral where these sites are fan sites, not official publisher/developer game sites. I'm banned from BD's main site with some of my posts being deleted even and I was asking some basic questions regarding compatibility at the time with hardware. Don't worry though, I've been banned from certain sites, wrongfully with posts deleted, when asking legitimate non-trolling questions on things and they were the main official sites, not fan sites.
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The reason was clearly stated by T10 at the time, the reason was they felt the user hosted lobbies were not well suited to a casual audience, and T10 were not alone in wanting to broaden the appeal of their franchise to the wider casual market.
There has been a growing trend over the last few years of developers going down the matchmaking route, developers like Bungie were spearheading this drive to make online gaming more casual friendly, T10 was just following what at the time was a trend within the games industry.
Thankfully there has been a huge backlash against matchmaking becoming the sole means of playing ones favorite game online, particularly within the PC gaming community, T10 like many other developers have recognized that having matchmaking as the only means to play their game online only alienates the hardcore market, it also opens a gap in the market for their rivals to exploit.
T10 simply didnt realize just how integral the CPL's were in providing the type of online gaming experience the hardcore/competitive players required to sustain interest in the franchise.
The one-size-fits-all approach of the matchmaking system, has zero appeal to a large segment of Forza's user base, T10 failed to identify with the needs of those customers, and they paid the price for that.
There is a silver lining to all this though, there seems to have been an important shift in T10's approach to this problem, how do you make your game as accessible as possible to the casual, whilst still improving the experience for the hardcore user?
Their solution is simple, give the hardcore players what they need and want, whilst adding new features to broaden the games appeal ( ie: kinect and more driving assists) to the casual user. the old FM3 approach robbed peter to pay paul, the new approach seems to recognize that there are two distinct user types out there (albeit with alot of overlap) both have to be catered for somewhat independently.
Its like Dan said in a recent interview, many users wont even be aware there is this other group of gamers out there because the game doesnt force those two different groups together, the casual user might never even be aware of all the hardcore features and users out there because he/she isnt using those areas of the game (ie: the CPL's & Clubs ).
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I just don't understand one thing though. The hardcore audience was never robbed of good online play. Private custom matches had all the options in the world. One thing about the hardcore group is they seek out others of the same ilk and usually beyond "finding some cool guys" online. I personally think the whole backlash was WAY overblown and really, to me, felt like a bunch of guys who wanted to trounce all over unsuspecting newbies to the game which is VERY sad.
- 1,732
- cuco33
Thanks Mr Fox for explaining some things. I think the lack of CPLs got way too much flack though. I think it was one of those things that it was awesome to have in FM2 and everyone was surprised why it wasn't in FM3, regardless of T10's reasoning. It seems to be back and I'm glad they listened. To be honest though, private races are perfect. Gamers could make races with their friends on log onto a community forum and setup races that way. Actually earning credits in private races was a huge thing for me, albeit friends and I didn't play online together as much as FM2 (one of our friend's passed away, kind of split us up gaming wise as it reminded us too much of him.) The biggest problem was racing 'strangers' in public lobbies. I rarely did that in FM2 though and my biggest gripe was lack of credits which as I mentioned was added for FM3.
It's obviously too late to add CPLs or other features to FM3 so let's hope they improved on FM2's CPL ideas. The Car Club feature I think is one that will bring personal friends and I back together playing in our Forza racing series.
It's obviously too late to add CPLs or other features to FM3 so let's hope they improved on FM2's CPL ideas. The Car Club feature I think is one that will bring personal friends and I back together playing in our Forza racing series.
- 9,295
- Duisburg
If I remember right, people were also complaining about how you coulld only find good, clean racers in racing leagues and such, so I never really understood what the big deal with the loss of the custom public lobbies was. At least for the more hardcore racers.
Either way, it's good to have them back. More options can't hurt.
Either way, it's good to have them back. More options can't hurt.
- 2,414
Yeah I'm with that. More options can't hurt. Just didn't understand the outrage. I still think it was some "hardcore" guys who just wanted to beat up on the casuals and wanted to set the game up to make sure they didn't actually run into a casual who was actually good and could beat them.
- 1,004
- Plano, Illinois USA
- MuchoJimbo
- Yo Def
Quick question for those of you with a Fanatec wheel for xbox-
Does Forza 3 offer the same straight line realism (with Fanatec wheel) as GT5 with a DFGT wheel or better?
Meaning, when I am driving in a straight line at higher speeds in GT5 with my DFGT, and I let go of the wheel for a second I will lose control, whereas the MS wheel on Forza 3 will allow me to literally let go of the wheel totally for the entire straight without ever hinting at losing control. Just researching before I buy a different wheel for Forza 4, thanks.
Does Forza 3 offer the same straight line realism (with Fanatec wheel) as GT5 with a DFGT wheel or better?
Meaning, when I am driving in a straight line at higher speeds in GT5 with my DFGT, and I let go of the wheel for a second I will lose control, whereas the MS wheel on Forza 3 will allow me to literally let go of the wheel totally for the entire straight without ever hinting at losing control. Just researching before I buy a different wheel for Forza 4, thanks.
- 1,732
- cuco33
I think it's over exaggerated in GT5 w/ a Logitech wheel and probably under exaggerated in FM3 w/an MS wheel. I can drive my car at 100mph, let my hands go from the wheel and it won't wobble back and forth. Do this in GT5 w/my DFGT and it instantly goes back and forth. I think it might not be intentional but an affect of FFB w/the electrical motor's clearance. When holding the wheel the FFB is at minimum and there's not much in terms of feel when holding the DFGT wheel, and as soon as you let it go the wheel wants to ever so slightly move one way or the other. To me it seems the slight notch feel is the rotor turning slightly inside the stator. You can see this with any electric motor when you wind it slowly by hand and feel a slight notch to it. Just my guess but once it starts shaking back and forth it goes crazy. Just my opinion, and note I never opened up any of my wheels.
I don't have a Fanatec wheel, yet at least, but from what I read, the Fanatecs and Thurstmaster T500RS doesn't do this, or you have the option to minimize/eliminate this effect.
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Both of my Fanatec wheel does the the same as Logitech wheels. Both Logitech and Fanatec wheel simulate wheel center with "no force feedback". The only difference is you can add dead zone (Fanatec) which I don't like or weaken the ffb which weakens other ffb effects as well. The reason why a real car doesn't do this is because a real steering wheel has forces coming from both side holding the wheel centered. I think PD is trying to simulate forces that IRL you feel through your body more than the steering wheel (G forces)
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dp.
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How are you defining a "good online experience", If my idea is to run a S class room on the nurb for hours on end, how can the hopper system satisfy me as a player, with my very specialized ideal of a good online racing experience.
As far as private lobbies are concerned, one has to assume that..
(a) i have a large amount of friends on my friends list (which i dont)
(b) that most of those people on my friends list are Forza players (they are not)
(c) Out of those forza Players on my friends list, there are a sufficient amount of them logged into the game at the same time as me (most are not)
(d) Those that are willing to join my room, also wish to spend the night playing the classes, tracks, lobby restrictions that i need in place for my enjoyment of the game. (most will not)
(e) that i dont get bored to death playing exclusively with the same tiny group of people every day (i will get bored of playing against the same people all the time)
Guys like GeorgiaDawg, Jed and if memory serves Daveyskills, were all against the exclusion of the CPL's, are you telling me that these guy who are the cream of the hotlapping community, have no other reason for wanting CPL's other than to trounce newbies ?
How the CPL's worked was certain hosts/rooms attracted players who liked the same specialized interests as the host (ie: TCS off/power tracks/A class/no LB cars) , but were open for anyone to join, because there are new players constantly coming onto the scene, and older ones leaving or taking a break, it gave newer skilled players a way of getting to race against and interact with the established hardcore members of the forza multiplayer scene.
It was a very dynamic scene, you got to meet many new players, rub shoulders with the greats, mark out your favorite hosts/rooms, and build on those experiences until you found your niche, but you were always free to break away explore the diverse online scene when ever you felt the need.
..............
However the opinion you expressed was in part the exact same one T10 had at the time, the CPL's are not a newbie friendly environment on the whole, the error that T10 made was in fearing that have both the CPL's and the Hoppers existing along side each other would split the online user base, so they forced the majority to use the casual friendly hopper system.
T10 have finally realized that the community is split by default, theres nothing T10 can do about that it, all they can do is provide features/systems that allow both groups to experience the game in different ways, Hoppers for the casuals & CPL's for the hardcore audience.
Will that split the online user base.....yes...... we just have to accept that and move on.
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