FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[t.o.]

Also, you can't complain about me being a GT lover

meanwhile later on that post...

........
And both games have their flaws. Forza's rollover physics need improved or simply removed, either way will be an improvement. GT5's shadows are a little nuts.

Seriously? Nobody can complain about you being a GT5 lover yet you see Forza's rollover physics (something you'll probably see once a month in a race) as being a major game killing flaw YET GT5's shadows, which are in your face from the word "GO" is just a "little nuts". Let's be clear, Forza's rollover physics cover two bases that need to be covered. Roll the car over and effectively end your race. When you come out of these rolls your car is basically DONE. By the way, in order to have a roll over or a crash you need some contact. Have you seen some of the contact physics in GT5? I swear sometimes it looks like a kid throwing a toy car across the room and Kaz decided to motion capture it.

The problem with your posts is you post alot of stuff that is grounded in logic and reason. Most people in here are posting facts. We're posting the good and bad about both games and putting them in the perspective they deserve and how we judge their ranking and importance. But the arguments with some are based off logic and reason. But some of the stuff you're putting out here makes no sense. There is no way a man in his right mind could honestly say that not having damage to gears in a RACING game is not important. That's ridiculous. There's no logic in that and no reason for it not to be there except for "It's another thing we couldn't get right for the game so rather than implement another half-baked feature we rather leave it out. Besides we know what's going to happen when people get a hold of our damage, why set ourselves up for more berating by putting out this substandard gear/transmission damage model"

Let me put it this way; I'm sure glad the manual transmission I had IRL were a lot tougher than those in Fm3. I was pretty rough with my first straight drive and know first hand manual transmission can take a serious beating ( I did wear out the clutch) and it's a lot harder to jam into a low gear at high speed than in any game.

I'm pretty sure, or put it this way, can you honestly say in real life you were banging up gears with your engine constantly at 9000 RPM's?

 

[Luminis]

Let me put it this way; I'm sure glad the manual transmission I had IRL were a lot tougher than those in Fm3. I was pretty rough with my first straight drive and know first hand manual transmission can take a serious beating ( I did wear out the clutch) and it's a lot harder to jam into a low gear at high speed than in any game.

Have you driven your car at race speeds? A vehicle that actually sends some decent torque to the transmission?

But, yeah, transmission are tough, that's why you never see transmission failures in races that only last and hour or two. Yeeaaaaah riiiiight...

And it's not like mis-shifting once would kill your transmission in Forza, either.

Now, to put the importance of damaging your transmission into some perspective: Do you know what caused Kazunori to take the win in his SP8T class during the Nürburgring 24 Hours? The transmission of the remaining Golf that was leading the class failing, that's what.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I just want the physics to be ALLOT better in FM4 than they were in FM3. This is the thing I like the most about GT5.

I hope that FM4 is much better as well. GT6 has a crap load a work ahead of it too.

What I was trying to say about gear damage is: if I were making a racing game, especially something as large as GT5, gear damage probably wouldn't cross my mind...at all...and if it did...I'd be like, "if there's time, we can add that...or we can put it in a patch."

We probably wouldn't buy that game, for sure.

Whereas, with the tracks, I'd go "let's make them as true-to-life as possible." I mean, Turn10 made a conscious decision to make the tracks in FM3 and FM4 wider and longer than in real life. I don't think it was a conscious decision at PD to exclude gear damage.

Only one track. PD intentionally left out some sim features that are in other racers as well though.

Also, you can't complain about me being a GT lover if you're a Forza lover.

Most of us are GT/Forza lovers.

I could make arguments for Forza, as well. They're livery editor is unmatched and I'm hoping they including PC importing and exporting soon to make it even better. I think the use of the kinect in FM4 is smart and cool, and I hope GT6 includes something similar where you can walk around the car and open the doors and hood and trunk. At least FM3/4 got all the drivetrains right. (example: GT4 and 5 list the Spyker as being FR...in reality, it's an MR, which Forza lists it as.) The physics in FM3 are better than FM2. In FM2, the 100,000 point drift achievement wouldn't been so easy...(however, if they're gonna include another one of those in FM4, I hope they make it more than 5 gamer points.)

Both have their pros and cons, both have items that make them feel arcade, both have items that make them feel sim...and they are pretty much on level playing field now.

 

[Evian]

 

[Luminis]

Video.

Nice video. Even though I like what I'm seeing, I do think that comparison videos should best be done after FM4 has been released.

The image based lighting really helps the game to look a lot better than FM4, that's for sure. And with that video in mind, I think it'll be hard to claim that GT5 looks better than FM4, at least from that early bit of footage. Both games seem to be pretty much on par on first sight; that video isn't showing off GT5's shadows a lot, though, which might make a difference down the line.

Spoiler

I fully expect someone mentioning how something doesn't feel right when watching the Forza footage, how it somehow looks off, how GT5 has that special something that makes it oh so superior.

 

[SuperShouden]

Spot on. It's pretty easy to go from 5th-3rd or 4th to 2nd in GT5 & have no consequences for doing so.

Enough with this spew. There is no premium & standard models in Forza. It is simply the "premium" model being downgraded during the race unlike GT5 where the 2 categories will always remain different cars.

No. There are two different vehicle models. FM4 will feature the same thing with laser scanned cars for the photomode cars and digitally rendered models for the drivable cars. Just because they're not separated, doesn't mean they're the same car model.

And...would it be worse if PD said, "let's leave out mechanical damage"? But, seriously, I'd be focused on quality if I made a racing game, as in, making the track and car models as realistic as possible. Notice it took PD two months to make a single car. and up to two years to make a track. That's a lot of work. And, yeah, it's obvious that damage was more of an after thought, than anything, but I also see it improving. And I'll admit that the collision detection sucked in GT5 when it first came out, but a patched fixed.

Also, I don't know why people are supporting FM3's rollover physics. It's not that good simply because it's WAY to easy to roll a car. Trucks and SUVs I can forgive, but cars...I clip a rumble strip in the Spyker on New York and instantly get vaulted into a roll, right...and it's not even that it's just simply easy, the behavior is wrong. Usually, if a car is gonna roll after clipping a curb it should do it instantly, but in Forza...it takes to long. It starts of slow, then rolls you 80 times.

GT5's rollover physics aren't perfect, but at least cars don't roll over super easy.

 

[Spagetti69]

No laser scanned cars to my knowledge.

Do you have a link?

 

[t.o.]

GT5's rollover physics aren't perfect, but at least cars don't roll over super easy.

I love how in your version of FM3 every car rolls over super easy while in mine version of the game I've only once bounced a car into a roll and even then I knew my suspension and ride height was all wrong for the car. And I had FM3 a week before release yet was only able to roll ONE car in the fashion you mention.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Also, I don't know why people are supporting FM3's rollover physics. It's not that good simply because it's WAY to easy to roll a car. Trucks and SUVs I can forgive, but cars...I clip a rumble strip in the Spyker on New York and instantly get vaulted into a roll, right...and it's not even that it's just simply easy, the behavior is wrong. Usually, if a car is gonna roll after clipping a curb it should do it instantly, but in Forza...it takes to long. It starts of slow, then rolls you 80 times.

GT5's rollover physics aren't perfect, but at least cars don't roll over super easy.

I've stayed more or less out of this since all of my previous experience with Forza was pretty limited. I finally got a chance to play FM3 for a solid four days, which admittedly is still very little, and it was without a wheel (my DFP's busted), so any in-depth physics analysis comments aren't completely fair. But, even for those few days, some things stuck out to me, in a contrast and compare sense, between GT and FM.

One thing I'm really not understanding is this talk of super-easy rollovers. I managed a rollover twice in those four days (an Exige and a Cayman), one of which was utterly accidental and chalked up to not knowing the track, but the other one was definitely expected (incredibly aggressive curb-hopping in the Exige). Other than that, I found FM to be very similar to GT in the rollover department - you have to be a pretty ham-fisted driver to cause one. Using a single track as support of your argument doesn't help either - everyone can flip their car pretty easily in GT at Trial Mountain's last turn, too.

The bit about "the behaviour is wrong" is laughable since both games fail to provide a convincing replication of rollovers. FM is not alone in that one. The collision detection in GT has every car looking like it's filled with helium when it's flipping - there's no sense of weight, whatsoever.

...

Anywho, I made it to Level 19 before I had to return the borrowed 'Box, and it was a lot of fun. The physics (again, controller vs controller here) feel simpler than GT, but do a few things differently too; launches are more realistic with lateral movement, and front-drive cars can actually step their tails out a bit, like the DC2. I had set the difficulty to the maximum, but then moved it down in one area and one alone - no clutch. Like I said, it felt... simpler, for lack of a better word. It did feel like there was more grip than necessary, but it's a minor thing and still lands far closer to GT than it does to arcade racers, and GT is far from the final word on physics anyways - only on consoles.

I liked the clean menus (though do like previous GT world map approaches more), obviously the amount of customization available, and the community features (sadly, had no Live to try out those bits). I liked the atmospheric sounds before a race - GT feels so cold and clinical sometimes, with exception to those special rally stages and their odd glitchy spectator noises. Another nice bit for me was the amount of work T10 has put not only into their fictional tracks in the layout and immediate surroundings, but how they seem to flesh out the area around the track more than GT. It really gives the circuits a livelier feeling.

Both games have their pros and cons, so I stick to my long-held belief that really, both teams should just join up and have utter domination of the racing game genre, since there's almost no weaknesses they both share

 

[Bogie 19th]

No. There are two different vehicle models. FM4 will feature the same thing with laser scanned cars for the photomode cars and digitally rendered models for the drivable cars. Just because they're not separated, doesn't mean they're the same car model.

You are required to provide proof to back up your claim.

Also, I don't know why people are supporting FM3's rollover physics. It's not that good simply because it's WAY to easy to roll a car. Trucks and SUVs I can forgive, but cars...I clip a rumble strip in the Spyker on New York and instantly get vaulted into a roll, right...and it's not even that it's just simply easy, the behavior is wrong. Usually, if a car is gonna roll after clipping a curb it should do it instantly, but in Forza...it takes to long. It starts of slow, then rolls you 80 times.

I am on my 6th season in FM3, and I have not yet rolled a car. Apparently you got a different version.

GT5's rollover physics aren't perfect, but at least cars don't roll over super easy.

FM doesn't roll easy.

I love how in your version of FM3 every car rolls over super easy while in mine version of the game I've only once bounced a car into a roll and even then I knew my suspension and ride height was all wrong for the car. And I had FM3 a week before release yet was only able to roll ONE car in the fashion you mention.

Odd that he never replies to come comments on his posts.

 

[tribolik]

No laser scanned cars to my knowledge.

Do you have a link?

Laser scanned cars thats a really cool feature. lets hope all the cars they scan are intact (bump free)

I wonder how do they scan the interior of the car though... some people just like to talk smack...

 

[VXR]

Give a man my car and I bet he drives it differently to how I drive it. GT versus FM in a nutshell.

 

[GumShoe]

Odd that he never replies to some comments on his posts.

Or provide proof when requested...

It's because GT5 'feels' good, but is hard to provide facts as to why.
Forza 3 also 'feels' good, but is easier to back up with evidence of what creates that feel.

Forza 3 models tyre deformation and pressure levels, aero and damage and while it's not perfect, it's done to a decent (how decent is subjective) level.
Cockpits in all cars, need to be tweaked for better (subjective) fov
Accurate/not accurate tracks
BTW Shouden, Forza uses different LODs, not different models...

I'm yet to hear the rebuttal to how GT5 could have a realistic tyre model if it doesn't simulate changes in tyre pressure or tyre width or have tyre deformation?
No gearbox damage from abuse.
Premium/standard cars
Premium/standard tracks

Going on the 'feel' of a game you can argue all day, because what feels good to one person feels different to another and no one will win that argument.

I've enjoyed both games, but to tell you the truth I personally think Shift 2 beats both games in feel (took some work to get there though), and simulates a whole lot more too, but that's for another thread...

 

[Terronium-12]

No. There are two different vehicle models.

No, there's a difference between what GT5 does and what Forza does. One is relatively the same with the only real difference being LOD. The other is either incredibly detailed or jagged as all hell. There is no "Standard" or "Premium" in FM3 nor FM4. Enough with that.

FM4 will feature the same thing with laser scanned cars for the photomode cars and digitally rendered models for the drivable cars. Just because they're not separated, doesn't mean they're the same car model.

Wait, have you played FM4 already?

And...would it be worse if PD said, "let's leave out mechanical damage"?

I wish they would have, that, and visual damage. Both are half-assed. When you roll a car over in GT5 - guess what? It resets itself back upright, automagically. See if that happens in FM3.

Notice it took PD two months to make a single car.

And there were incredibly obvious faults with some of the models. Hell, there still are to this day.

Also, I don't know why people are supporting FM3's rollover physics. It's not that good simply because it's WAY to easy to roll a car.

Unless you're road-humping the rumble strip and taking corners at high speeds with a light car that has a relatively low center of gravity: no, it just isn't.

Trucks and SUVs I can forgive, but cars...I clip a rumble strip in the Spyker on New York and instantly get vaulted into a roll, right...and it's not even that it's just simply easy, the behavior is wrong. Usually, if a car is gonna roll after clipping a curb it should do it instantly, but in Forza...it takes to long. It starts of slow, then rolls you 80 times.

Over-exaggerations don't help to prove a point, just an FYI. And have you see actual race cars that corners aggressively and end up riding on two wheels? Either one of two things can happen: 1. The weight shifts to the opposite side, eventually weighing the car back down to the Earth - which can happen in FM3. Or, 2. The weight shifts to the contact side, forcing it to roll over - which, again, can happen in FM3.

GT5's rollover physics aren't perfect, but at least cars don't roll over super easy.

It also resets itself after having rolled over. What was your point again?

No laser scanned cars to my knowledge.

Do you have a link?

To be fair to Shouden, I do believe during that pre-release featurette for the Veyron it was being laser-scanned. So, I don't see any reason why they'd take a step back and do it any other way now.

 

[Luminis]

No. There are two different vehicle models. FM4 will feature the same thing with laser scanned cars for the photomode cars and digitally rendered models for the drivable cars. Just because they're not separated, doesn't mean they're the same car model.

Forza still does not seperate its car list. You can't claim it does, because it doesn't. There are no premium or standard cars, that simple.
But if you insist on calling the photomode and non-photomode models premium and standard respectively, what's with GT5's photo travel models? Those would fall under the same category as FM4's model change does (albeit I am very certain you'll suprise me with some kind of excuse as to why they aren't), so what would you call them? Apllying the same standards to both games and not incorporating a double standard (hard to do, right?) one would have to admit that GT5 has a three tiered car list: Standard, premium, photo-premium.

And...would it be worse if PD said, "let's leave out mechanical damage"?

It wouldn't be worse, it would be just another strange design decision, of which there is an awful lot in the game, anyways.

But, seriously, I'd be focused on quality if I made a racing game, as in, making the track and car models as realistic as possible.

While forgoing a realistic damage model? How is that a sign of 'quality'?

Notice it took PD two months to make a single car. and up to two years to make a track. That's a lot of work.

And it's still no excuse whatsoever. Outsourcing would've solved all of that. That's a lot of poor decisions.

And, yeah, it's obvious that damage was more of an after thought, than anything, but I also see it improving.

Improved to what? When I left GT5 after a fistful of patches, it still was the 'oil barrels coliding' thing it was at release day.

Also, I don't know why people are supporting FM3's rollover physics. It's not that good simply because it's WAY to easy to roll a car. Trucks and SUVs I can forgive, but cars...I clip a rumble strip in the Spyker on New York and instantly get vaulted into a roll, right...and it's not even that it's just simply easy, the behavior is wrong. Usually, if a car is gonna roll after clipping a curb it should do it instantly, but in Forza...it takes to long. It starts of slow, then rolls you 80 times.

I have played Forza 3 for a solid 13 months and can still count the times I rolled over on both hands. If you were talking about Shift 2 here, I'd agree, but it sounds as if you, as a driver, failed. Not the game.

BTW Shouden, Forza uses different LODs, not different models...

I can assure you, explaining the diffference is just going to be a wast of your time

I'm yet to hear the rebuttal to how GT5 could have a realistic tyre model if it doesn't simulate changes in tyre pressure or tyre width or have tyre deformation?
No gearbox damage from abuse.
Premium/standard cars
Premium/standard tracks

You'll never hear a decent rebuttal, because, there is non. All you're going to get is why a super realistic Nordschleife is more important than any of that.

 

[Spagetti69]

To be fair to Shouden, I do believe during that pre-release featurette for the Veyron it was being laser-scanned. So, I don't see any reason why they'd take a step back and do it any other way now.

The reason I asked is because when Dan was asked about how they go about modeling his response was.

We have the cars for a weekend, take loads of photos, take of wheels, hood etc.

Hard to say how much he was joking but he never mentioned laser scanning.

Maybe more modern manufactured cars were provided with that info from the makers.

I'm still not sure either way.

 

[boxox]

Yeah, I dunno about that either, it sort of seems like an application of the technology which doesn't really play to its strengths so much. Like, other than trying to scan a necklace set with different gemstones or the inside of a telescope I'm not sure what would come out worse.

 

[Hotspitta]

I always race with no assists and damage, if any, on full. One thing I don't like in GT5 is how I'm able to slow down faster by aggressively downshifting along with some braking. So much so that I ping redline like mad. In Forza, and in real life, damage would occur to the drivetrain somehow. This one is a big gripe for me. I taught myself in other racers on all platforms to NOT ping redline so aggressively in my downshifts but GT5 it happens almost on the norm for me.

That's what i love about Forza. I mean you really have too watch out when you downshift in or else your motor will have less power. And if you damage your drivetrain it always gives that sound and FFback that its broke. You can really feel it true the ffb. Awesome things like this make Forza Forza. With options like this it is hard too not say Forza is a better sim. Although the driving does look better from a premium cockpit in Gt5. Forza 3 lack of camera movement and rumble will be implemented in Fm4 so not too worry.

 

[Luminis]

With options like this it is hard too not say Forza is a better sim.

Right now, I think it's hard to say something like that, for the sole reason that it's hard to weigh something like GT5's feel against Forza's damage system.
Personally, I agree, though. For me, Forza 3 already ticked more boxes in the 'sim' department than GT5 does.

But I'm solely going off of the quantifiable stuff here, nothign that's mere opiion, like the driving feel and such...

 

[zr1chris]

With options like this it is hard too not say Forza is a better sim.

To me the most important part of a sim is the physics which GT5 still wins in this department. Everything else is just a bonus. Yes Forza does the other things better but the core attribute of what makes a sim a sim is the physics.

 

[Hotspitta]

To me the most important part of a sim is the physics which GT5 still wins in this department. Everything else is just a bonus.

I do agree while driving its better but i still think there is something wrong with the low speed physics. Primarily during cornering.👍

Right now, I think it's hard to say something like that, for the sole reason that it's hard to weigh something like GT5's feel against Forza's damage system.
Personally, I agree, though. For me, Forza 3 already ticked more boxes in the 'sim' department than GT5 does.

But I'm solely going off of the quantifiable stuff here, nothign that's mere opiion, like the driving feel and such...

Good point.👍

 

[Bogie 19th]

To me the most important part of a sim is the physics which GT5 still wins in this department. Everything else is just a bonus. Yes Forza does the other things better but the core attribute of what makes a sim a sim is the physics.

I have found Forza's physics to be better. However, GT5 has had better attention to detail in car models.

 

[zr1chris]

I have found Forza's physics to be better.

Not sure how you can possibly think that when every car in Forza understeers like crazy.

 

[t.o.]

To me the most important part of a sim is the physics which GT5 still wins in this department. Everything else is just a bonus. Yes Forza does the other things better but the core attribute of what makes a sim a sim is the physics.

Like I've said before this is really the only thing left for GT5 to hang it's hat on but even this is subjective. I feel that there's a physics nirvana that can be attained on consoles. Unfortunately only one game has really got that close to it, Race Pro. I also feel that GT5 is as far from that nirvana as FM3 (and to be honest I really feel FM3 is a bit closer). I'm not buying GT5's physics. Something is just "wrong" there. I said the same thing with GT5P and people thought I was a mad man until you see some of the differences between 5P and 5.

 

[Hotspitta]

Not sure how you can possibly think that when every car in Forza understeers like crazy.

Turn on stability control.👍 and cranck up the rear sway bars.

 

[Zer0]

I'm yet to hear the rebuttal to how GT5 could have a realistic tyre model if it doesn't simulate changes in tyre pressure or tyre width or have tyre deformation?

You mean visually? It's obvious that GT5 tyre simulation take in account a lot of unadvertised things wich are not represented visually. For example in the replays you can see the pressure of the tyres compressing in bumps but the tyre is not see deforming in real time, it clips in the ground and bounce according to the weight applied.

All that details were never publicited in GT games like are in Forza(active aero, tire physics, Hz, etc), most times the simulation details are only revealed when someone ask directly to Kaz for it in interviews. Some people assume that if is not known or shown in a menu is because do not exist and that's wrong. GT4 cars had over 300 physics parameters, how many of those are made public? GT5 is running in a new more complex engine.

Personally, I agree, though. For me, Forza 3 already ticked more boxes in the 'sim' department than GT5 does.

That's the problem with Forza, it checks boxes yes, but the core is not up to par.

It's easy to convince anyone with a list of favourable features(theory) but is very hard to keep thinking that FM3 is a better sim once you try both games with the same cars, same track, no aids, low grip tyres and steering wheels(practice).

A completely different animals regarding handling realism, individual car authenticity and steering inputs, the very basics of a driving sim.

 

[zr1chris]

Turn on stability control.👍 and cranck up the rear sway bars.

You shouldnt have to do that to take a sharp corner between 30 and 50 mph in a Ferrari with racing suspension and tires but I'll give it a try. 👍

 

[Hotspitta]

Like I've said before this is really the only thing left for GT5 to hang it's hat on but even this is subjective. I feel that there's a physics nirvana that can be attained on consoles. Unfortunately only one game has really got that close to it, Race Pro. I also feel that GT5 is as far from that nirvana as FM3 (and to be honest I really feel FM3 is a bit closer). I'm not buying GT5's physics. Something is just "wrong" there. I said the same thing with GT5P and people thought I was a mad man until you see some of the differences between 5P and 5.

The first time i played Gt5 i was like WT.. I really had too teach myself how too make the physics work after seeing the insidesimracing video i couldn't help but noticing the guys were taking a few shots at GT5 physics in relation too having too learn the physics whereas in Forza it just seems natural.
GO TO 26:00 to 28:09 mark.

You shouldnt have to do that to take a sharp corner between 30 and 50 mph in a Ferrari with racing suspension and tires but I'll give it a try. 👍

Wich one are you driving? Try braking and accelerating smooter.

 

[Zer0]

The first time i played Gt5 i was like WT.. I really had too teach myself how too make the physics work after seeing the insidesimracing video i couldn't help but noticing the guys were taking a few shots at GT5 physics in relation too having too learn the physics whereas in Forza it just seems natural.
GO TO 26:00 mark Tommy explains.

Forza handling was assisted in many ways to appeal natural/easy to catch:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5461930#post5461930

It would be interesting to see how Forza 4 compares if they really get rid of all the aids.

 

[zr1chris]

The first time i played Gt5 i was like WT.. I really had too teach myself how too make the physics work after seeing the insidesimracing video i couldn't help but noticing the guys were taking a few shots at GT5 physics in relation too having too learn the physics whereas in Forza it just seems natural.
GO TO 26:00 to 28:09 mark.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVkNKPU0EA8">YouTube Link</a>

Thats Forza 4 not 3

Wich one are you driving? Try braking and accelerating smooter.

Ferrari F355