FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Spagetti69]

Shouden, have you taken off the assists now?

 

[t.o.]

My experience as well, aside from the few guys that have somehow been related to Sony and are probably paid to say otherwise.

And you can tell just by the interview. The guys who say iRacing say it as natural as if they're just talking to you or me. The guys who mention anything else say it as if they're looking at the guy on the other end of the camera holding their endorsement check.

 

[Luminis]

And you can tell just by the interview. The guys who say iRacing say it as natural as if they're just talking to you or me. The guys who mention anything else say it as if they're looking at the guy on the other end of the camera holding their endorsement check.

It's mainly beccause I've never, ever heard anyone mention GT who's not been associated with GT Academy, involved with GT5 (Sebastian Vettel, for example) or is part of a team which is majorly sponsored by Sony/GT.

Then again, I don't really take this "ZOMG, this game makes you a race driver IRL, like, srsly!!" crap very seriously, in general. iRacing may have it's merrits, but still...

 

[t.o.]

It's mainly beccause I've never, ever heard anyone mention GT who's not been associated with GT Academy, involved with GT5 (Sebastian Vettel, for example) or is part of a team which is majorly sponsored by Sony/GT.

Then again, I don't really take this "ZOMG, this game makes you a race driver IRL, like, srsly!!" crap very seriously, in general. iRacing may have it's merrits, but still...

Yep, pretty much. I think even the Red Bull guys REAL simulator is based off either iRacing or rFactor.

 

[boxox]

Every real life race I've seen where they care to mention a video game that has helped them in races it's always been iRacing. NASCAR, ALMS, you name it, if they happen to mention a video game it's always the same , iRacing.

IME the one thing that comes up is simply that games help you learn the tracks. Not driving, or the cars - just the basic rhythm of the racetrack itself. I am yet to see any engineer endorse the concept of using a sim to prototype a new car design or anything similar you might expect if anyone regarded simulated vehicle dynamics as 100%. But in terms of practical help, just getting a feel for the environment comes up a lot as a big factor. The other stuff - not so much. Besides which - there are so many other factors involved in terms of the vehicle type/setup/racing series rules, that if anything the more specific the game simulates "A car", the greater it will diverge from reality given any change there on the IRL vehicle

iRacing has the best and most accurate tracks (with whatever appropriate caveat for "at the time they did them"etc). That's about it. Vehicle dynamics wise they just pulled off a marvellous marketing trick of saying that the tyre model is the most important thing imaginable, and hyping the new one .. which is completely different than the old one used by every single car, but one for now. So ... the most important thing was wrong - really embarrassingly wrong - this whole time? And the pro drivers didn't notice? Oh dear. That sounds kind of ... not good

Again, why? It's not like every track in Forza is off. But every gear box in GT5 is. And not being punished for mis-shifiting is, I think, affecting the game quite a bit. Couple that with the lack of aero damage, the lack of tyre pressure to name a few, and I'll have to ask: If Forza is no sim for lacking track accuracy, what does that make GT5 for lacking all of that, which directly impacts how a car is driven on whatever road there is and might ever be?

Yeah, just a thought experiment here - I know looking at GT5 involves swallowing some bizarre design decisions, but does anyone think that the lack of the most basic functions to do with basic systems (tyre pressure, brake fade, etc) means it is actually more likely that they do some killer simulation work further up the chain? Because to me this kind of indicates the opposite, that if they couldn't even pull that off, there is not a chance in hell they saved cycles there in order to run some super sophisticated model calculating brownian motion of the coolant in the radiator. Far from it. Very likely everything else is as painted-on as the basics.

 

[Luminis]

Yeah, just a thought experiment here - I know looking at GT5 involves swallowing some bizarre design decisions, but does anyone think that the lack of the most basic functions to do with basic systems (tyre pressure, brake fade, etc) means it is actually more likely that they do some killer simulation work further up the chain? Because to me this kind of indicates the opposite, that if they couldn't even pull that off, there is not a chance in hell they saved cycles there in order to run some super sophisticated model calculating brownian motion of the coolant in the radiator. Far from it.

Agreed. I've been saying that for a while now. if the game doesn't allow you to change your tyre pressure, how could we assume it simulates it, at all? and if it doesn't simulate tyre pressure, how could it simulate tyre temperature properly, without taking the expansion of the heated air inside the tyre into consideration?

I mean, I don't want to take anything away from GT5, because the result, no matter how they accomplished it, feels very good. But it's one of many points that makes me question GT5 as the "Real Driving Simulator", or a true sim in the first place. I don't consider Forza a true simulator, either. For other reasons, though.

 

[Bogie 19th]

*shrug* I don't know. Forza's never really felt like a "sim" to me.

That's cool man. Not everyone will have the same experience. Just like many don't feel that GT is very sim. Not everyone is the same, nor will everyone have the same experience. Nothing wrong with that.

Forza and GT5 have completely different feels to them. You could argue which side is better until you're blue in the face and you can make fair points for both, but...then you look at the numbers and you play them and there's just...a different feeling to Forza.

There's a different feeling to both of them. Yup.

Forza feels like something you can just pick up an play...Hell the achievements really aren't all that hard to get, either. Forza feels like it's catering towards the more casual gamer, where as Gran Turismo feels like it's more catering towards the hardcore gamer.

I have felt that GT has been something you can really just pick up play (as well as Forza). But I have found that you can go hardcore in both, but with a bit more hardcore sim in Forza.

And I think the numbers proves this point:

Development:
GT5 - 5 years
Forza 3 - 2 years

Cars:
GT5 - 1000+
Forza 3 - 400+

Completion time:
GT5 - 500 Hours
Forza 3 - 100-250 Hours

Forza 3 is actually 500+ cars, just a correction. Also, a link to the number of hours to complete? BTW, I am not so sure I would brag about the GT5 development time, considering the condition GT5 ended up in. 👎

And I'm sure Forza's budget was smaller, too.

What was their budget? Do you have access to both budgets? I don't, so I can't comment on that.

That kills 50% of the game if the tracks are not 100% identical to the real ones... Why they call it sim then? For what did they work with pirelli and make good physics if they build unreal tracks?

What good is a sim if you can't alter and reflect tire pressures? What good is a sim if you can't damage your gear box, lose gears, and finish the remainder of a race in 3rd gear? An accurate track can't reproduce real life simulation scenarios with items like that missing.

Gear damage and unreal tracks are two different things my friend...

Yes they are my friend. But they do have one thing in common, the reproduce simulation of cars.

I think gear damage is more of a minor thing compared to realistic tracks.

Not really, especially when it only comes down to one track.

Plus...you do know that damage models and track models are handled by two completely different sets of people, right?

What does that have to do with anything? It's still the same game.

Sure GT5 doesn't have gear models, but, a lot of what's NOT included in GT5 wasn't included because they didn't want to take any longer than it already did.

Then they should not have released it, instead of turning it into a more arcadey game with less sim features. I would rather have had improved damage, proper gearboxes (as well as other sim features) instead of Go Karts and NACAR. Same can be said for Forza. I would have rather have had more cars on the track, better body roll representation and finished cockpits in the R class instead of having the stupid tacked on drag racing that they did.

That's why the shadows are jaggy in GT5. (BTW, the shadows in Forza aren't perfect, either. I noticed uneven shadows and jiggly shadows today. And when I say jiggly...I thought a part the body work was loose and shaking, but it was just the shadow. I went, "Why does the shadow bounce around like that?")

Indeed. Nobody has claimed that Forza 3's graphic are perfect. In fact, outside of the standard cars in GT5 and some of the standard tracks in GT5, GT5 demolishes Forza 3 graphically.

Also...I will point out that in GT5 you're not pressed up against the glass in the cockpit view. I can't stand Forza's cockpit. At least FM4's will be correct.

I changed my cockpit view in Forza 3 so it wasn't like that. Are we able to alter the cockpit view in GT5?

 

[oFANTOMASo]

Gentlemen, both games are great. One has better graphics , one has better physics , and the list continues....At the end both are great or decent.

To really enjoy and get more SIM experience from Forza and GT5, turn off your assists, especially the Driving/Brake line (D/Bl). To me the D/Bl kills the Sim Experience 30 to 40%. A few examples :

FORZA 3


GT5


oFANTOMASo

 

[VXR]

GT has never truly felt like a sim to me, to be fair, but I appreciate GT4 to some level as it still offers up new experiences. I don't count something that barely models lift-off oversteer particularly simmy.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

Again, why? It's not like every track in Forza is off. But every gear box in GT5 is. And not being punished for mis-shifiting is, I think, affecting the game quite a bit. ....

Both games punishes the player for using the clutch pedal. All the clutch required in Fm3 was simply pushing two buttons to shift instead of one.

added: The only time I received damage for down shifted too low is when some reason the Microsoft WRW downshifted without me touching the paddles. I've read this is a common problem with this wheel. Because you have no feel to the clutch and shifting it's easier to mis -shift than IRL where you have a lot more feel. This is why even hardcore sims are more forgiving with it comes to the clutch and shifting.

 

[tribolik]

I really hope that FM4 is milles better than GT5 and I dont even own a XBox...

 

[Luminis]

Both games punishes the player for using the clutch pedal. All the clutch required in Fm3 was simply pushing two buttons to shift instead of one.

I don't really get what that has to do with not modelling damage to the transmission, but either way, yeah, it's going to be that way when a game models the clutch. Engaging it with a button is always going to be faster for the perfect shift than to use a pedal.

 

[zr1chris]

I just want the physics to be ALLOT better in FM4 than they were in FM3. This is the thing I like the most about GT5.

 

[cuco33]

I always race with no assists and damage, if any, on full. One thing I don't like in GT5 is how I'm able to slow down faster by aggressively downshifting along with some braking. So much so that I ping redline like mad. In Forza, and in real life, damage would occur to the drivetrain somehow. This one is a big gripe for me. I taught myself in other racers on all platforms to NOT ping redline so aggressively in my downshifts but GT5 it happens almost on the norm for me.

 

[oFANTOMASo]

Gentlemen, both games are great. One has better graphics , one has better physics , and the list continues....At the end both are great or decent.

To really enjoy and get more SIM experience from Forza and GT5, turn off your assists, especially the Driving/Brake line (D/Bl). To me the D/Bl kills the Sim Experience 30 to 40%. A few examples :

FORZA 3


GT5


oFANTOMASo

To clarify my Sim comment. In the Gaming World, these games are Sim if you compare them to some Arcade Racing Games. Of course in real life these games are not a full Driving Simulators. And again, the driving/brake line take away a huge "Sim" from the these games. My opinion.

oFANTOMASo

 

[MadmuppGT]

To clarify my Sim comment. In the Gaming World, these games are Sim if you compare them to some Arcade Racing Games. Of course in real life these games are not a full Driving Simulators. And again, the driving/brake line take away a huge "Sim" from the these games. My opinion.

oFANTOMASo

I'll admit I use the racing line (brake lines) simply because I just dont have the time or the will to learn every track like the back of my hand...sure others are the same

 

[Luminis]

To clarify my Sim comment. In the Gaming World, these games are Sim if you compare them to some Arcade Racing Games. Of course in real life these games are not a full Driving Simulators. And again, the driving/brake line take away a huge "Sim" from the these games. My opinion.

oFANTOMASo

Even with the driving line/brake line off, and compared to other games, Forza and GT aren't really sim. GTR2, that's a proper sim. iRacing is. And rFactor. Forza and GT are closer to being a simulator than, say, Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit, but that's why I, for example, refer to them as simcade. Because that doesn't make them true simulators. It just makes them the games that are closest to a sim on consoles, if it does that at all...

And I also think most people around here are driving with assists of, anyways, probably even with the HUD off

 

[t.o.]

Both games punishes the player for using the clutch pedal. All the clutch required in Fm3 was simply pushing two buttons to shift instead of one.

added: The only time I received damage for down shifted too low is when some reason the Microsoft WRW downshifted without me touching the paddles. I've read this is a common problem with this wheel. Because you have no feel to the clutch and shifting it's easier to mis -shift than IRL where you have a lot more feel. This is why even hardcore sims are more forgiving with it comes to the clutch and shifting.

Some general rules of thumb. When discussing clutch you really can't discuss it if using buttons/controllers to work it. NOWHERE near the same as using an actual pedal attached to a pedal set with an actual stick shift. When using my Fanatec wheel this whole statement becomes false. I couldn't tell you with the controller because honestly all the time I played with a controller I never used the clutch. I used the manual seq but using a clutch feature with a controller was ridiculous to me in ANY game so I never bothered.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

Some general rules of thumb. When discussing clutch you really can't discuss it if using buttons/controllers to work it. NOWHERE near the same as using an actual pedal attached to a pedal set with an actual stick shift. When using my Fanatec wheel this whole statement becomes false. I couldn't tell you with the controller because honestly all the time I played with a controller I never used the clutch. I used the manual seq but using a clutch feature with a controller was ridiculous to me in ANY game so I never bothered.

I also have a GT2. Also you can use a button for clutch on a wheel like the Microsoft WRW. Then there were complaints it's easier in Fm3 ( as in most sims) for the clutch to be mapped on the button instead of the pedals. In FM3 obviously the game was designed so manual clutch was easy on the controller so it wouldn't be at a disadvantage.

 

[Luminis]

I also have a GT2. Also you can use a button for clutch on a wheel like the Microsoft WRW. Then there were complaints it's easier in Fm3 ( as in most sims) for the clutch to be mapped on the button instead of the pedals. In FM3 obviously the game was designed so manual clutch was easy on the controller so the controller wouldn't be at an disadvantage.

And what would a solution look like? Not allowing the clutch to be remapped? Not having a manual clutch in the game in the first place?

All of that would cause more inconvenience than to just ignore that issue, wouldn't it?

 

[SuperShouden]

What I was trying to say about gear damage is: if I were making a racing game, especially something as large as GT5, gear damage probably wouldn't cross my mind...at all...and if it did...I'd be like, "if there's time, we can add that...or we can put it in a patch." Whereas, with the tracks, I'd go "let's make them as true-to-life as possible." I mean, Turn10 made a conscious decision to make the tracks in FM3 and FM4 wider and longer than in real life. I don't think it was a conscious decision at PD to exclude gear damage.

Also, you can't complain about me being a GT lover if you're a Forza lover. I could make arguments for Forza, as well. They're livery editor is unmatched and I'm hoping they including PC importing and exporting soon to make it even better. I think the use of the kinect in FM4 is smart and cool, and I hope GT6 includes something similar where you can walk around the car and open the doors and hood and trunk. At least FM3/4 got all the drivetrains right. (example: GT4 and 5 list the Spyker as being FR...in reality, it's an MR, which Forza lists it as.) The physics in FM3 are better than FM2. In FM2, the 100,000 point drift achievement wouldn't been so easy...(however, if they're gonna include another one of those in FM4, I hope they make it more than 5 gamer points.)

And both games have their flaws. Forza's rollover physics need improved or simply removed, either way will be an improvement. GT5's shadows are a little nuts. And the game does have about 800 recycled cars. (although, a recent update made them look a bit better. And...Forza uses a similar system. They use premium models for photomode and standard models for driving.) And I could go back and forth. But...the feel of the two just isn't the same...not even close.

 

[McLaren]

I always race with no assists and damage, if any, on full. One thing I don't like in GT5 is how I'm able to slow down faster by aggressively downshifting along with some braking. So much so that I ping redline like mad. In Forza, and in real life, damage would occur to the drivetrain somehow. This one is a big gripe for me. I taught myself in other racers on all platforms to NOT ping redline so aggressively in my downshifts but GT5 it happens almost on the norm for me.

Spot on. It's pretty easy to go from 5th-3rd or 4th to 2nd in GT5 & have no consequences for doing so.

They use premium models for photomode and standard models for driving.) And I could go back and forth. But...the feel of the two just isn't the same...not even close.

Enough with this spew. There is no premium & standard models in Forza. It is simply the "premium" model being downgraded during the race unlike GT5 where the 2 categories will always remain different cars.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

And what would a solution look like? Not allowing the clutch to be remapped? Not having a manual clutch in the game in the first place?

All of that would cause more inconvenience than to just ignore that issue, wouldn't it?

Games and wheels doesn't simulate manual shifting that well to punish people for something like mis-shifting or not using the clutch pedals which is why the most hardcore sims don't. (it's alot easy to accidentally tap the paddle and down shift twice using the Microsoft WRW than a real car)
I have seen a high end sequential shifter that has real shifter parts that requires you to recenter the shifter completely (a click sound) before change the gear again. This shifter also had the option of removing this knowing in most cases this may put the user at a disadvantage in sims.

 

[Luminis]

What I was trying to say about gear damage is: if I were making a racing game, especially something as large as GT5, gear damage probably wouldn't cross my mind...at all...and if it did...I'd be like, "if there's time, we can add that...or we can put it in a patch." Whereas, with the tracks, I'd go "let's make them as true-to-life as possible." I mean, Turn10 made a conscious decision to make the tracks in FM3 and FM4 wider and longer than in real life. I don't think it was a conscious decision at PD to exclude gear damage.

1) Good thing you're not in charge of PD/T10 then. Because, really, I'd like a company that creates a game to worry about the features (such as the physics engine, lighting, damage model [including mechanical damage, such as damage to the transmission], online mode and so on) before worrying about the content, like tracks and cars. Content is regularily added with DLC. And, really, going mad with the tracks and cars instead of working one verything else is probably what made GT5 what it is today.

2) If it wasn't a conscious decision, PD fails as a company, and it fails hard. If you design a product, you don't do random things because that's how things ended up due to some sort of coincidence. You think things through and plan accordingly.

Also, you can't complain about me being a GT lover if you're a Forza lover.

Probably not. But:

And...Forza uses a similar system. They use premium models for photomode and standard models for driving.

One could complain about that. Because FM doesn't seperate its car list. There are no two tiers of cars, hence no premium and standard cars. That's just you shoehorning a term that was conceived by GT5 onto Forza.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

1) Good thing you're not in charge of PD/T10 then. Because, really, I'd like a company that creates a game to worry about the features (such as the physics engine, lighting, damage model [including mechanical damage, such as damage to the transmission], online mode and so on) before worrying about the content, like tracks and cars. Content is regularily added with DLC. And, really, going mad with the tracks and cars instead of working one verything else is probably what made GT5 what it is today.

Even ISR mention they overrated Forza 3 damage model after they had some time to play it more.

 

[Luminis]

Even ISR mention they overrated Forza 3 damage model after they had some time to play it more.

And that has exactly what to do with GT5 not simulating damage being done to your transmission? Not simulating aero damage? The damage model being inferior in general?

Games and wheels doesn't simulate manual shifting that well to punish people for something like mis-shifting or not using the clutch pedals which is why the most hardcore sims don't.
I have seen a high end sequential shifter than has real shifter parts that requires you to recenter the shifter completely (a click sound) before change the gear again. This shifter also had the option of removing this knowing in most cases this may put the user at a disadvantage in sims.

I... am not sure whether I understand what you're trying to say. Sorry, I don't know what to make out of that post.

 

[t.o.]

I... am not sure whether I understand what you're trying to say. Sorry, I don't know what to make out of that post.

I don't know what to make of it either, I DO know it sounds very strange. As a person who has driven many manual vehicles in real life (from RX7's to Civic SI's to VW Transport Vans) I can honestly say having to center my stick till I hear a click or doing anything that resembles that in real life sound like a foreign language to me. Every stick I've dealt with always had some "play" in the center. You're not trying to "get to center" as much as you're just trying to "get in and out of a gear".

 

[Spagetti69]

I mean, Turn10 made a conscious decision to make the tracks in FM3 and FM4 wider and longer than in real life.

Which FM4 track are you referring too?

 

[Luminis]

Which FM4 track are you referring too?

I'd love to have that clairvoyance ability, too.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

And that has exactly what to do with GT5 not simulating damage being done to your transmission?

Let me put it this way; I'm sure glad the manual transmission I had IRL were a lot tougher than those in Fm3. I was pretty rough with my first straight drive and know first hand manual transmission can take a serious beating ( I did wear out the clutch) and it's a lot harder to jam into a low gear at high speed than in any game.