Toyota 86 Tuning Challenge *Results Are In*

XDesperado67

Of course the idea is to find the fastest so if one model has an advantage then the others would be a bit redundant.

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This

VTiRoj

Earlier in the thread, Hami suggested that I should tune all 5 as a sort of benchmark for people to aim for.

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I don't think others are going to enter multiple tunes. You're the special case, being the "expert". Your goal is to beat all the tunes for each car. Easy, right?

s2k2k3

Either you're the slowest driver in the world or you're using the wrong track.

This challenge is for the GP/D course, not the whole 24-hour track.

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I was at the nordschleife.i did over 1:47 in gp/d

Sorry, couldn't resist.

s2k2k3

I don't think others are going to enter multiple tunes. You're the special case, being the "expert". Your goal is to beat all the tunes for each car. Easy, right?

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At this rate, I'll be fastest for the 3 concept cars by default.

Just checked the OP again.
I can use any ballast I want correct?
Its only power limited that I can only use up to 5%...

XDesperado67

Just checked the OP again.
I can use any ballast I want correct?
Its only power limited that I can only use up to 5%...

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Ballast is real. Lead exists. I've seen it.

But this flat-line horsepower limiter just makes no sense.

And as a practical point, these cars are so well balanced there is nothing to be gained by using a ton of ballast.

s2k2k3

Ballast is real. Lead exists. I've seen it.

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I prefer to ballast my car with bottles of cola in the back. Helps me get closer to 50/50 distribution even though it's an FF.

VTiRoj

I prefer to ballast my car with bottles of cola in the back. Helps me get closer to 50/50 distribution even though it's an FF.

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If I was ballasting an FF car I'd use bags of fertilizer. Cause that's how I feel about driving FF cars.

ff cars are very front heavy,so you have to put a lot of weight at the rear and make the front sharper and a little firmer then the rear and make the LSD low

lldantell

ff cars are very front heavy,so you have to put a lot of weight at the rear and make the front sharper and a little firmer then the rear and make the LSD low

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So I should use alot of fertilizer. Got it.

s2k2k3

So I should use alot of fertilizer. Got it.

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In other news, my Scion is ready to go but I'm not sure I'll get a chance tonight to run the three posted thus far. I will get on my computer and start my results post though. 👍

Well I'm fine tuning the real 86 currently (read Sprinter Trueno (GT-APEX) '83 which is a FR and currently with those skinny tires it would probably make a great drift car as I'm fighting to keep the rear end from stepping out every time you touch the gas.
Only getting high 1:48s currently but think I can shave another second or two off that if I can get the rear under control.👍👍

Since it has been a while since I've been in the hotseat and there are some new faces around I thought I'd recap my methods. Firstly, I don't cheat laps; I don't cut corners, drive on the grass, hit walls, etc. I drive and count laps only if they fit into the WRS/GTP OLR standards, mainly two wheels on the track at all times. There are some grey areas on GP/D. I'm not counting anything green as track nor outside the white lines where there is runoff.

I will be using my DS3 for this event as I haven't been feeling well enough to drag out the wheel rig and set it up. I use no aids and ABS 1 unless otherwise specified in the tune. Been trying to phase out the driving line so it is going on and off.

Now to the results!

Leaderboard

1. HaylRayzor - Toyota FT86 Concept - 1'42.873"
2. robrabbitman - Scion FR-S - 1'43.839"
3. VTiRoj - Scion FR-S - 1'44.116"
4. VTiRoj - Toyota 86 GT - 1'44.213"
5. ||dante|| - Scion FR-S - 1'44.242"
6. praiano63 - Toyota 86 GT - 1'44.539"
7. krenkme - Scion FR-S - 1'45.023"
8. USARMYCOMBATVET - Toyota 86 GT - 1'45.498"
9. NEWDRIVER2 - Toyota 86 GT - 1'45.510"
10. XDesperado - Toyota Sprinter Trueno - 1'47.189"

Commentary

praiano63 - Toyota 86 GT - 1'44.539" - Seems like a hard ride but very stable for the most part. Doesn't seem to like the high curbs here. Can't really tell if and/or when I am sliding the back end around until I am already sideways coming out of the corner.
Needs a slightly more delicate throttle input.

USARMYCOMBATVET - Toyota 86 GT - 1'45.498" - Loose in the rear making it somewhat difficult to get good traction out of the corners. Perhaps trading a little bit of power for even minimal downforce would make a big difference.

NEWDRIVER2 - Toyota 86 GT - 1'45.510" - Really loose in the back! I had the tail coming out on just about every corner here. Looking over the tune I think tweaking down the LSD accel would help.

krenkme - Scion FR-S - 1'45.023 - Feels solid and planted throughout the track. Never felt like it was going to kick out the tail even when mashing the loud pedal. Trade off is it just doesn't turn! Without getting the entry right you'll have to slow considerably to keep out of the sandbox. Mid corner felt like it was on rails...not sliding but also can't shove it into the apex.

||dante|| - Scion FR-S - 1'44.242" - As stated, loose but controlable. Had a good feel overall but again some mid-corner woes. Seems to change directions well at the chicanes but I needed to fight to keep it turning after. It was very tight off the throttle.

VTiRoj - Toyota 86 GT - 1'44.213" - Yay, it turns! By far the best mid-corner feel of the lot thus far. I can get tighter into the apex without having to dab the brakes. It is a bit slidey though and was a handful the first few laps getting used to it. Had a mid 43 that was red flagged...never did see where though. Maybe for the second run.

robrabbitman - Scion FR-S - 1'43.839" - Had a hard time with this on the tighter corners as it is very reluctant to come in while coasting. The rear is stable enough for the most part but there was some understeer in a few points. Forces you to hit your line but on the unforgiving side if you don't do so.

XDesperado - Toyota Sprinter Trueno - 1'47.189" - The Ghost of the Hand Grenade! Well, maybe not that bad but I found myself as inconsistent with this as with that little gold monstrosity. Again, forces you to drive in a certain manner and will not accept anything else. I found myself staring out the side window coming into turns quite often.

HaylRayzor - Toyota FT86 Concept - 1'42.873" - I can't say how this is so fast. It will kick out the tail at will and I felt like I was babying it a bit just to get around the track cleanly. It would seem that this tune responds will to being deliberate and thinking a few turns ahead.

VTiRoj - Scion FR-S - 1'44.116" - For some reason this one felt more difficult to drive than the 86. Just as fast it seems but I think the 86 was easier to push harder.

EDIT: My first pass at tuning all the variants. I could improve the tunes I know but I was just getting a baseline. They're very close as I suspected they would be. The FR-S definitely has a 43 in it. I just didn't put all the corners together on that run.

I did post a time with the Sport Concept but it was a second slower and so not on the screen.

I was originally planning to submit a tune myself and then changed my mind. Or maybe I'll post the FT 86 Concept if nobody puts one up against Roj.

I do think I'll run a couple of the other tunes to see how they stack against mine.

I'm also curious how much transfers from the 86 GT to the FR-S... Will the whole tune from one work on the other...? What I learned from the Concept II worked well on the FT 86. EDIT: The FR-S tune worked well in the 86 GT.

NEWDRIVER2 - Toyota 86 GT - 1'45.510" - Really loose in the back! I had the tail coming out on just about every corner here. Looking over the tune I think tweaking down the LSD accel would help .


Thank you for your reviewing my car . But it done aleardy and i can't do any thing now later after shootout . I know this car step her tail in every corner but i can manage it and you also from your lap time because my time is 1:44:980 in this track .welldone mate . I happy with your time but i think you can do faster than me :-) .

Hi guys

I just finished a tune for the FT-86 concept 09 & just ran a 1:43.075 .

Bit of a lame tune but it seems to get the job done .

Thanks

Oh, '86, how do I love thee? More power than the FF shootout plus the handling minus the white-knuckle-grip of a caterham. I missed you. (Hugs car.)

All aids off, ABS: 0, FFB: 7, Sports Hard Tyres
As usual I'm driving in the style of GTA'12, as if cones are annoyingly placed. I'm barely touching the rumble strips.

Test results:
Pass 1:
USArmyCombatVet: 1:44.354
Off the line everything I love about the '86. It has a massive area between grip and slip (yaw, is that the word for that space?, or slip?). I enter the mid- to high-speed corners with pre-entry understeer and power out at the apex with excellent balance with oversteer. Breaking is easy and intuitive. Trail breaking could be done while eating a sandwich. The feedback from the wheel is flawless, I know exactly what's going on with my tyres. The gears are FAR to long, I just touch sixth on the start stretch, and am no where near maxing it on the back stretch. A massively fun car that's quick but its slip is too broad to be competitively fast.

Praiano: 1:45.697
Excellent feedback and slip range without sacrificing grip. It feels like it should rock this course. The slip range is not as broad as USACVs' but it's also not as "skwishy." I'm breaking later, harder and then powering out before I hit the apex, unlike USACVs' which slipped from under- to oversteer at the apex. The gears aren't as short as USACVs' but still too long for this track.

NewDriver2: 1:45.055
Solid base. My first thought as I went through the first corner was of an old martial arts instructor of mine, Day Sadadnim {Grand Master } Chay (spelling of his second title is wrong but its korean, so sue me), in horse stance. I'd rather move a mountain.
Part of that solidness is the lack of range-of-feel, the wheel is stiff but bland through it's range. I have to keep aware of the tyre color and listen, rather than feel them lose grip.
The other part of that solidness is the cars' consistent understeer on mid-corner and entry. It's easy to push (overpower) or induce weight-transfer oversteer but that only makes it better.
An '86 that understeers and I like it? I'm kinda nauseas, sick but true.
The gearing is perfectly long, but not synced to this track, unfortunately. The changes are ill timed but it puts the power down consistently and that helps alot with the under- over-steer pivot, shifts are more subtle and disturb the car only marginally.
The turn in feels purpose built for this track. I had one of my favorite corner executions with this car: the first corner after the start stretch. I doubt I turned the wheel more than 3%. It floated perfectly down/past the apex. Absolute zen.

All three are GT '86s but all three are absolutely different. But all three have distinctive tunes that can't be replicated on a single car. Sigh. Here you go Bobs, three excellent cars to break in.

Dante: 1:45.624
That Stage 2 Engine sounds great and puts down nice consistent power.
A very stiff, heavy wheel. Feedback is ok but not great, probably due to the heaviness.
Turn in has no understeer, but you can overstep it easily. Mid corner is nice, despite lack of feedback. Corner exit is plagued by oversteer.
The tune hits its max PP at 0 mile break-in. I'll use the power limiter to keep it in line.

Krenkme: 1:45.478
I went from heavy to light. So easy to turn its hard to get feedback, but it is still there. The front end is much more reactive to minute (tiny) input controls, and "targeting" the apexes is easier than shooting fish in a barrel.
If you placed an apple at each apex do you know what you'd have? To quote Ben Aflec in Dogma (Playing Will Hunting), "Applesauce, b!+¢h!."
This isn't a car that easily transfers from grip to slip and back again. Once you slip you lose your line, but it's still easy to know where the point of slip is. I know when I'm about to lose grip and can pull it back.
Good gearing, sixth isn't used fully, I'm barely touch it. And I'm almost shifting to first on the last (sweeping) corner.
If you enjoy an understeering FR then this is the car for you. Not my style but thoroughly enjoyable. Someone will love this car.

RobRabbitman: 1:44.725
Damn. Holy "ride the slip" Batdriver. This car can sit comfortable between grip-n-slip while singing "I am the very model of a modern major general." This is how you do it boys. Copy these settings and call it good.
The turn is isn't as predictable as Krenkmes' for corner entry but the balance between wheel input and thrust inputs (gas/break) are perfect for mid-corner and corner exit.
Gearing is perfectly long, sixth just about maxes on the longest stretch, with just enough room to make me think I can improve. Its not synced to this track but it really doesn't matter.
Not only am I able to get a better lap time with this car, its average lap time is faster than any other cars best time.
I dub thee "Lateralus,"
"ride the spiral to the end, you may just go where no one's been."
(If you can do this to a Caterham 7 Fireblade then I would do your laundry for a year to get that tune.)

VtiRoj / '86 GT '12: 1:46.082
There is no throttle steering with this car. It's solidly planted without any sway. This is combined with little feedback and range-of-feel. It takes several laps to know where the limits are and then you spend the rest of the time trying to get close without going over. Recovery is possible but by the time you do your ghost/opponents will be out if the next corner.

HaylRayzor / GT86 Concept : 1:45.001
Kind'a an inbetween tune. The Goldylocks of the GT86s. Not too oversteery, not too understeery. Not too much feedback, not too little. Not too much slip and not too firmly planted. So good it's bland.

praiano63

I will enter with my online tune. My only problem is that somebody have to build and share it for me. Also need to set the top speed to suit to this track. I can't do this myself for the moment.

Let me know, have a good night everybody.

><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

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Ronald6

Oh, '86, how do I love thee? More power than the FF shootout plus the handling minus the white-knuckle-grip of a caterham. I missed you. (Hugs car.)

All aids off, ABS: 0, FFB: 7, Sports Hard Tyres
As usual I'm driving in the style of GTA'12, as if cones are annoyingly placed. I'm barely touching the rumble strips.

Test results:
Pass 1:
Praiano: 1:46.066
Excellent feedback and slip range without sacrificing grip. It feels like it should rock this course. The slip range is not as broad as USACVs' but it's also not as "skwishy." I'm breaking later, harder and then powering out before I hit the apex, unlike USACVs' which slipped from under- to oversteer at the apex. The gears aren't as short as USACVs' but still too long for this track.

Night y'all.

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Thanks for the test, seems nice to me. The only thing is that the gears needed to be setted for the track , i can't access the game to do this myself and i think DigitalBaka forget about it. Anyway , it's very nice to him have build and share my car. Not a problem, it's ok for me.
Have a good day everybody.

><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

Will hopefully get my classic 86 finished later today when I wake up.
Currently have it running mid 1:47s but pretty sure I can shave a little more off that time. Should be interesting to see what real drivers like Ronald think of it. If you like loose cars that are easy to induce oversteer in then you'll probably find it okay. If you like your cars to feel a bit tighter then you'll probably hate it. May not be quite as loose as some of my tunes but still isn't close to what most people think of as a grip monster...

Ronald6

Oh, '86, how do I love thee? More power than the FF shootout plus the handling minus the white-knuckle-grip of a caterham. I missed you. (Hugs car.)

All aids off, ABS: 0, FFB: 7, Sports Hard Tyres
As usual I'm driving in the style of GTA'12, as if cones are annoyingly placed. I'm barely touching the rumble strips.

Test results:
Pass 1:
USArmyCombatVet: 1:45.921 (not final)
Off the line everything I love about the '86. It has a massive area between grip and slip (yaw, is that the word for that space?, or slip?). I enter the mid- to high-speed corners with pre-entry understeer and power out at the apex with excellent balance with oversteer. Breaking is easy and intuitive. Trail breaking could be done while eating a sandwich. The feedback from the wheel is flawless, I know exactly what's going on with my tyres. The gears are FAR to long, I just touch sixth on the start stretch, and am no where near maxing it on the back stretch. A massively fun car that's quick but its slip is too broad to be competitively fast. The current time is low due to the unfinished break-in of the car.

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Thank you for the concise feedback! Now I know exactly where I need to improve. This is why I enjoy this site and meeting you guys here! Question: How would I go about tuning out the yaw or grip and slip in this car? Thanks in advance. If this violates the rules, I will respectively disqualify myself out of this competition in exchange for learning how to tune yaw

Ronald6

Oh, '86, how do I love thee? More power than the FF shootout plus the handling minus the white-knuckle-grip of a caterham. I missed you. (Hugs car.)

All aids off, ABS: 0, FFB: 7, Sports Hard Tyres
As usual I'm driving in the style of GTA'12, as if cones are annoyingly placed. I'm barely touching the rumble strips.

Test results:

NewDriver2: 1:46.143
Solid base. My first thought as I went through the first corner was of an old martial arts instructor of mine, Day Sadadnim {Grand Master } Chay (spelling of his second title is wrong but its korean, so sue me), in horse stance. I'd rather move a mountain.
Part of that solidness is the lack of range-of-feel, the wheel is stiff but bland through it's range. I have to keep aware of the tyre color and listen, rather than feel them lose grip.
The other part of that solidness is the cars' consistent understeer on mid-corner and entry. It's easy to push (overpower) or induce weight-transfer oversteer but that only makes it better.
An '86 that understeers and I like it? I'm kinda nauseas, sick but true.
The gearing is perfectly long, but not synced to this track, unfortunately. The changes are ill timed but it puts the power down consistently and that helps alot with the under- over-steer pivot, shifts are more subtle and disturb the car only marginally.
The turn in feels purpose built for this track. I had one of my favorite corner executions with this car: the first corner after the start stretch. I doubt I turned the wheel more than 3%. It floated perfectly down/past the apex. Absolute zen.


Night y'all.

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Thank you Sir for your feedback but can you tell how to improve this car later on please thanks . :-)

NEWDRIVER2

Thank you for your reviewing my car . But it done aleardy and i can't do any thing now later after shootout . I know this car step her tail in every corner but i can manage it and you also from your lap time because my time is 1:44:980 in this track .welldone mate . I happy with your time but i think you can do faster than me :-) .

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Sure, just giving some of my thoughts on how I would tweak the setup. Take it with a grain of salt. As far as the time, I've only done 10 laps in each car so far, just a matter of getting more laps in I think. Planning to take all the cars for a second drive if I have the time.

praiano63

Thanks for the test, seems nice to me. The only thing is that the gears needed to be setted for the track , i can't access the game to do this myself and i think DigitalBaka forget about it. Anyway , it's very nice to him have build and share my car. Not a problem, it's ok for me.
Have a good day everybody.

><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

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You're right, I totally forgot to tweak the transmission! I just went off what was in your build list and left it like that for the break in. Obviously I never went back after. If nobody objects I can edit the final drive to suit and re-share...

USARMYCOMBATVET

Thank you for the concise feedback! Now I know exactly where I need to improve. This is why I enjoy this site and meeting you guys here! Question: How would I go about tuning out the yaw or grip and slip in this car? Thanks in advance. If this violates the rules, I will respectively disqualify myself out of this competition in exchange for learning how to tune yaw

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This is what we are all about really. Getting this kind of info shouldn't be against the rules so long as you don't change the car you've already entered and shared so no worries!

MSTER232

Oh 🤬 , do we have to use the cars on Nurburgring GP/D? Just realised . I will retest mike's GT86 and post the time and feedback here.

*SNIP*

I am very happy for me to test any other setups that fellow tuners on this thread may have. If you want me to give your car a test drive with honest feedback, then don't be afraid to ask .
[/CENTER]

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Just add everyone to your PSN and test away! The Scions can't be shared or traded (which is downright ridiculous if you ask me) but it is easy enough to buy one or three and break them in.

For the FT-86 II, are we still required to add certain parts to it, or has that rule been scrapped because the car is no longer an official entry?

Ronald6

Dante: 1:46.005
That Stage 2 Engine sounds great and puts down nice consistent power.
A very stiff, heavy wheel. Feedback is ok but not great, probably due to the heaviness.
Turn in has no understeer, but you can overstep it easily. Mid corner is nice, despite lack of feedback. Corner exit is plagued by oversteer.
The tune hits its max PP at 0 mile break-in. I'll use the power limiter to keep it in line.

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I put my ffb at 5 so it feels lighter when I drive it.it is heavy but when a car feel stiff,it should feel heavy.i know about the pps too.but nice comment about my tune

@Newdriver: Tranny stuff I know. Over- and under- steer I know. I'm not sure how to tune for "range-of-feel", sorry.

Ask the tuners.

@USACV: glad to help. It was a fun drive. Looking forward to v2.

Don't quote me, but the 'yaw' we are talking about is adjustable by changing the 'balance' between front and back. And also because the car is diagonal as it's going through the corner: side to side. Longitude and lateral movements.
When a car is as well balanced as yours then changing how it rides its slip angles will change it's yaw.
As I'm pushing hard through a high speed corner then I might have slip angles of 2°front and 4° back. If I can seamlessly adjust to 4°/2° and back then the yaw will go from slightly negative to slightly positive. Usually this is done by 'overpowering' or gassing the back end to make it looser, or in an FF, trail-breaking at entry. Unfortunately in your car you can't reach that yaw by 'overpowering' because that would just 'push' (understeer) the front out.


I cannot find tunes for:
Desperado (still in the shop, I know)
VTiRoj
Johnyboy532

Ronald6

RobRabbitman: 1:45.112
Damn. Holy "ride the slip" Batdriver. This car can sit comfortable between grip-n-slip while singing "I am the very model of a modern major general." This is how you do it boys. Copy these settings and call it good.
The turn is isn't as predictable as Krenkmes' for corner entry but the balance between wheel input and thrust inputs (gas/break) are perfect for mid-corner and corner exit.
Gearing is perfectly long, sixth just about maxes on the longest stretch, with just enough room to make me think I can improve. Its not synced to this track but it really doesn't matter.
Not only am I able to get a better lap time with this car, its average lap time is faster than any other cars best time.
I dub thee "Lateralus,"
"ride the spiral to the end, you may just go where no one's been."
(If you can do this to a Caterham 7 Fireblade then I would do your laundry for a year to get that tune.)

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Glad to see my tune is doing doing well, and most importantly that you enjoyed the ride! I was quite pleased with the way the car turned out, but I understand the gearing. I had just taken about 5 minutes after I realized my Nur gearing would be inefficient for this track, I decided to make the gearing only as long as the track would allow.

PS: I was actually working on a Sports Soft Fireblade. Once I'm satisfied, I'll see about posting it.

VTiRoj

For the FT-86 II, are we still required to add certain parts to it, or has that rule been scrapped because the car is no longer an official entry?

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As you wish. Any tune you post will be at the discretion of the testers whether or not to build it.

.

I can't believe how much fun I've had tuning all the variants. The only disappointment has been the Sports Concept. Ah well.

I got the FR-S down to 1:43.5xx. I'm using the same tune for the FR-S and the 86 GT. They feel the same to me and have the same lap times. There is a little FR push but if you trail brake they rotate nicely.

After I had my way with all 5 of the modern types I took a swing at the original Eight Six. It takes alot of tuning to get it to 450PP. And then it takes alot of driving to get it around the track. My best lap was 1:47.391 between the mid-corner push and the insane wheel-spin when it came on boost.

I think I like the modern versions better.

So when you gonna be finished with your results s2k2k3

I'll have the FR-S, GT86 and FT-86 II up tonight and on share.