MORE Customization/ upgrade options.

VQuick

If you break engine tuning down into: Intake/Fuel System/Ignition/Exhaust/Cams/Valves/Displacement/Forced Induction(if equipped)/Cooling System

All with a couple upgrade stages of their own, you open up a lot of freedom for people, without it being too hard to manage. You can get the same PP rating as someone else, yet have a different powerband that may be more suited to your personal preference. Speaking from experience, it's pretty easy to deal with in Forza.

PD is usually pretty decent at explaining how some parts work, so this is another opportunity for them to spend a little more time educating players on how cars work.

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Just for engines, my categories would be:

Cylinder head
- Valvetrain (sizing, type)
- Porting + head work (flow and combustion efficiency, CR)
- Camshafts (lift and duration, timing)

Internals
- Crank types (lightweight, durable, stroker etc.)
- Rods and Pistons (lightweight / low friction, durable, bore, CR etc.)
- Ancillaries (reduce friction, and improve durability)

Induction
- Plenum volume / presence / type, pulse plates etc.
- Runner lengths + diameters (torque curve shaping)
- TB location / number, sizing (plus restrictors)
- Filter, silencing + feed location

Exhaust
- Manifold configuration (runner groupings, collector types etc.)
- Runner lengths and diameters (torque curve shaping)
- Tail exit location, cats, muffler
- Material (changes tone, affects durability e.g. turbo manifolds)

Forced Induction
- Superchargers (centrifugal, various positive displacement, pulley ratio)
- Turbos (turbine and compressor sizing, blow-off, by-passes, screamer pipes etc.)
- Configuration (twin-charge, sequential, parallel, compound etc.)
- Intercooling ("size" i.e. duty, type)
- Boost control (mapping)

Fuel and Ignition
- Fuel metering (carbs jetting, injector "sizes" etc.)
- Ignition (advance, coil upgrades etc.)
- Mapping (reliability, torque, economy)
- Firing order

Misc.
- Cooling and lubrication (mostly durability)
- Etc.

Then there are the other mods, like a completely revamped RM menu of options for a start, or more sensible suspension and gearbox options.

Then it would help to group these upgrades together to offer generic "kits" that do a certain thing (e.g. NA screamer, drag beast, endurance, rally turbo etc.), slightly tweaked to suit each car (e.g. turbine sizing). The real optimisations would come from diving in there and getting some dyno time in. Not even Forza has enough detail, not the sort that matters anyway.

Obviously each part would have its own weight and performance and durability benefits that either need to be learned or tested. This detail would really help the rise of the online tuners and form a proper community, whilst the creation of an abstracted level of control would still involve the casual player. (e.g. sliders to control the power band and effect those necessary changes on the parts installed, or install the required parts to suit - well, get close at least; the real optimisation must be tested - at a cost).

Ideally, this tuning would be performed on a per-engine basis, rather then per car. Obviously the same engine in a different car might have packaging constraints that limit the plumbing options, say, but I'd suspect there are substantially fewer unique engines (/ families) than there are cars. Then each engine could be given characteristics that more-or-less mimic their real world counterparts, (which would require some serious research; maybe each engine could just be slightly different and respond to upgrades differently, without overall being any "better" or "worse").

Further, they could bring back the tuners, only this time they specialise in different things, e.g. strictly NA stuff, or vintage stuff etc. and the kits they sell reflect this, although again the kits should be generic whilst the individual parts can be tweaked to suit should you want to.

So, yeah, pipe dream!

@ VQuick
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7438344#post7438344

If I understand your initial response, you're saying an engine can't use them all at once. I meant to say that the player should be able to choose any path, whether NA or Forced-Induction, when choosing their upgrades. Unless there's a logical reason a car could never be Turbo or NA.

@ Griffith500
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7439506#post7439506

The abstracted powerband tuning could be accomplished with the ECU chip upgrade. Although since older cars don't have ECUs, you'd be left with mix-and-matching parts, which is one of reasons I'd like to see all cars being capable of equipping NA, Turbo or Superchargers. They have a tangible difference on your powerband and would add flexibility to your choices.

Speaking of superchargers, you were talking about a pulley ratio. That could be another adjustable option. For Twin-Turbo configuration, I suggest you'd first have to "buy" the capability and then you can equip any turbo you already bought onto a "Turbo 1" and Turbo 2" slot. using identical turbos would most likely act like a parallel design while combining a small one with a big one would give you your sequential performance.

dudejo

@ VQuick
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7438344#post7438344

If I understand your initial response, you're saying an engine can't use them all at once. I meant to say that the player should be able to choose any path, whether NA or Forced-Induction, when choosing their upgrades. Unless there's a logical reason a car could never be Turbo or NA.

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Yes, currently, but that is because of limitations put in place by PD. The engine tuning packages are done with just NA tuning in mind, so they aren't compatible with forced induction.

If you look at the descriptions for forced induction, I think at least in GT4 when you selected a turbo, it talked about supporting modifications like intercoolers and the fuel system being added. Possibly for GT5 as well. It could be that PD is thinking that engine-specific upgrades for turbo duty are also being included.

Sadly, this takes a lot of tuning out of the hands of players. Thus my suggestion of breaking things down into separate engine items and giving them their own staged upgrades.

I just felt it was ridiculous barely being able to break 400hp in certain cars, because you didn't have forced induction available. Not only that, but the engine tuning upgrades also hardly seemed to do anything for as much work as the descriptions portrayed and as much money as you were paying. I get 15hp from cams, compression and a laundry list of other stuff? Really??



Oh, and I haven't seen anyone mention it, perhaps because it goes without saying: let us reverse the work and uninstall parts as well.

dudejo

@ VQuick
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7438344#post7438344

If I understand your initial response, you're saying an engine can't use them all at once. I meant to say that the player should be able to choose any path, whether NA or Forced-Induction, when choosing their upgrades. Unless there's a logical reason a car could never be Turbo or NA.

@ Griffith500
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7439506#post7439506

The abstracted powerband tuning could be accomplished with the ECU chip upgrade. Although since older cars don't have ECUs, you'd be left with mix-and-matching parts, which is one of reasons I'd like to see all cars being capable of equipping NA, Turbo or Superchargers. They have a tangible difference on your powerband and would add flexibility to your choices.

Speaking of superchargers, you were talking about a pulley ratio. That could be another adjustable option. For Twin-Turbo configuration, I suggest you'd first have to "buy" the capability and then you can equip any turbo you already bought onto a "Turbo 1" and Turbo 2" slot. using identical turbos would most likely act like a parallel design while combining a small one with a big one would give you your sequential performance.

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I'm asking for a system that totally abstracts control in the form of kits with customisation sliders for things like power-band that not only adjusts the "mapping" but also the installed parts (e.g. by controlling runner length and plenum volume on the intake side for NA, say) - any deviation from the default kit might cost extra (but the kit itself may constitute a small discount from the individual parts, perhaps, depending on the exact balance of benefits from tinkering vs. using the defaults). Again these would largely be generic, perhaps in the form of three or four types / stages per tuning application and (group of) tuning part(s), so there's still wiggle room for human tuners to set up shop and find the fertile grounds in between.

If that's too complicated, I suppose we could close our eyes and pretend that ECU tuning can cover that entire range for us. The casual player / tuner can always be presented with such a one-dimensional interface if that's what's required, but the detail should still be there underneath for the rest of us.

Regarding turbos, it's easy enough to hack a sort of "effectiveness range" for turbines and any coupled compressors and further hack the dynamics to suit - ideally proper coupled thermodynamic and kinematic simulation would be good, but without validation, it won't necessarily be any more accurate.
As such, you shouldn't have to "buy" a configuration, only the components to make that configuration - of course kits will still exist for ease of use and recognition. In essence, though, yes, you'd be putting turbos / superchargers in "slots" - although I think we should be given more room than just "twin turbo".

Regarding adjustments, it should be that if you can adjust it for any compromise of performance and reliability in real life, you should be able to adjust it in game. Pulley ratio is just one of those things that really ought to be in, as well as boost control of some kind on top of that.

Maybe GT isn't the platform for cataloguing the history of tuning internal combustion engines (and chassis dynamics) in this way (although it does have the museum), and I'm not expecting GT6 to do all of this exactly, but it's where games that pretend to offer tuning and customisation need to be heading towards.

DRAG TRACK URRGH WE NEED THEM please lol

More Modifications! This is one of the reasons Forza excels because of GT5's lack of modifications. I want to put a body kit on an S15, I want to make a Golf into a hellaflush car with insane camber, I want to put an LS1 in an RX-7. Give us more freedom to personalize our cars. To me, that would make it much more of a simulator to allow us to make OUR cars, the ones we work for to buy via racing, OUR cars. Body kits, wheel options, motor swaps, and "sponser ship stickers" as HPIxProdigy said.

Realistic upgrade like 1200 hp gtr and gallardo?
I'm in for it!!!

@ Griffith500
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7443229#post7443229

If I understand this well, You're basically suggesting Full-Custom engine parts that can be adjusted like the Full-Custom transmission? That would sound simple enough to grasp with a bit of studying. The problem is how many of those Full-Custom parts would need to exist for proper engine tuning. Then it would be a matter of how many of those functions could be "off-loaded" onto the ECU tuning area.

Another way of doing it is to make the NA Tune-Ups more RPM-range specific instead of simply boosting high RPM power with every stage. It would at least provide more tangible choices, which is the biggest thing the GT tuning system lacks.

As for turbos, I suggested buying the twin capability because I wasn't entirely certain of whether or not it was as simple as hooking up a second turbine.

Exorcet

Honestly, it could make a convincing substitute for a manufacturer list full of F1 cars. It would also be really big for NASCAR fans. I don't see how anyone could be against a livery editor except maybe on the grounds that it would take time and resources from the dev team. However, the added enthusiasm from players and longevity added to the game would more than make up for it.

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Good point.

With the F2007, F10, and Formula GT you could, with the livery editor, create convincing copies of F1 cars from the past 15 years.

Years each openwheel model could reprsent in F1

Formula GT: 1995 - 2000
F2007: 2001 - 2008
F10: 2009 - present

Something thats not talked about alot but needs to be in GT5 is for PD to model the engine bay on front engine cars. This way all the internal upgrades like headers, aluminum heads etc can be visible when opening the hood or after a crash.

watching this episode, or all of them will give good comparison to real world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J260Ldkb6U

and the most important part of customization
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u6MATReQ3M

dudejo

@ Griffith500
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7443229#post7443229

If I understand this well, You're basically suggesting Full-Custom engine parts that can be adjusted like the Full-Custom transmission? That would sound simple enough to grasp with a bit of studying. The problem is how many of those Full-Custom parts would need to exist for proper engine tuning. Then it would be a matter of how many of those functions could be "off-loaded" onto the ECU tuning area.

Another way of doing it is to make the NA Tune-Ups more RPM-range specific instead of simply boosting high RPM power with every stage. It would at least provide more tangible choices, which is the biggest thing the GT tuning system lacks.

As for turbos, I suggested buying the twin capability because I wasn't entirely certain of whether or not it was as simple as hooking up a second turbine.

Click to expand...

I don't know, I'd have to try implementing it all myself, and that's not something I have either the talent or inclination to do right now.

I guess just changing the engine tune-up stages to allow for either FI or NA and in each case determine the "extremeness" of the peak power you're after vs. something more balanced, might do enough this time around - especially if it affects durability. And then do a bit of tweaking on the ECU where possible for a few extra ponies here and there.

A twin turbo installation, from scratch, shouldn't cost significantly more than a single turbo, except obviously for the cost of the extra turbo. So if you're buying the parts separately, there shouldn't be any excess in that regard. The problem is there are a lot of options for plumbing that can make a difference in terms of boost profile and lag, which really matters in the same way as the NA options you described. So either they offer "stages" for all of these options, including twin charging etc., or they let us configure it ourselves in parts.

Maybe you could have a grid to work on, with a top-down view of the engine. You could add up to, say, four forced-induction "devices" and connect them to the engine and to each other in the configuration that you want, including charge cooling and the various controls, and then the game works out the rest.

@ Griffith500
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7445321#post7445321

Forced-induction "devices"? Like a twincharger system?

If you combined a turbo's intended RPM range with a boost control option, would it resemble the plumbing options you can get?

Alright buds, I am glad to see that most of us here are excited about GT6 and what features should have place in the new GT title.
Personally, I think that full body/engine (and other performance stuff) tuning, a vinyl/livery editor, and free roam mode are a must in GT6.

So as I read a bunch of different ideas posted into different topics I decided to make a list (which is going to be updated) of the things we want to see in GT6. Not sure if this has been done already, but I'm just posting this with no other intention but to be helpful

(ATM I'm writing on my iPod so formatting will be redone later on my pc.)

TUNING / EXTERIOR:
• Full aftermarket body-wise tuning, such as bumpers, side skirts, spoilers, hoods, roof scoops, wide body kits, head lights and tail lights available.
• More rims, sorted by brand (ex: BBS / ENKEI / VOLK) and different rim sizes.
• Possibility to "sculpt" parts (like in NFS: Carbon)
• Neon, on different parts (intercooler, hood, chassis, etc..)
• Vinyl / livery editor (great to put our creativity to test)
• Window tint (?)
• Removing body parts (such as bumpers/default spoilers)

PERFORMANCE:
• Ability to choose from different engines for the same car (like irl)
• Choosing between various brakes
• Not so general tyre choice, more tyre options like brand, dimension, width, etc
• Swapping drivetrains
• Various turbo options (single, dual, quad) for different amount of credits
• Branded exhausts
• Re-implement N2O
• Choosing between single parts instead of doing engine tuning by stages

PHYSICS :
• Make low speed driving possible, please ._.
• More realistic damage physics (sort of soft body, but not so soft)
• More realistic tyre wear
• Temperature readings
• If mechanical damage is on, engine blowing, drivetrain wrecking and gear loss possibility
• Off road (dirt and snow) driving more realistic

GENERAL :
• Free roam, driving on different locations from mountain ranges to city streets
• Better racing BGM
• Re implement GT4 Gran Turismo mode menu
• More tracks, like Silverstone, Estoril, Brands Hatch, etc..
• Diversify car make and models

This is very, very incomplete atm, so bare with this tread as long as new ideas come out.

I tried to be the most brief I could be,
cheers

dudejo

@ Griffith500
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7445321#post7445321

Forced-induction "devices"? Like a twincharger system?

If you combined a turbo's intended RPM range with a boost control option, would it resemble the plumbing options you can get?

Click to expand...

Yes, twin charging is one option. Compounding is another that seems to be overlooked a lot, although it's mostly been used in Diesels and aero engines up to now, but that's more because of the ridiculous boost levels you can get with it, and the potential for low-lag has been ignored as a result - although one of the most famous twin-turbo setups is sequential, which does sort of the same thing, but without multi-staging the compression or expansion, just using a complex system of bypasses instead. Then there's this beast, which is a bit of both.

Boost control can't necessarily reduce lag, that's determined by the turbos themselves, although it would help in the Supra's case, but that's because of a deliberate design decision to limit torque in the low-engine-speed range. It would primarily be used to shape the torque curve once a given configuration has been chosen.

When I say "plumbing", it's sort of my tongue-in-cheek catch-all term for all the complicated manifolding, blow-off, by-pass, intercooling etc. that you tend to see on most FI setups. It's bespoke per installation, and we needn't get too involved in that outside of which cylinders feed which expanders and which compressors feed which cylinders in turn.

Brakes:

1. Sport brakes- 3,000 credits

2. Semi-race brakes- 7,500 credits

2. Race brakes- 15,500 credits

Earth

Good point.

With the F2007, F10, and Formula GT you could, with the livery editor, create convincing copies of F1 cars from the past 15 years.

Years each openwheel model could reprsent in F1

Formula GT: 1995 - 2000
F2007: 2001 - 2008
F10: 2009 - present

Something thats not talked about alot but needs to be in GT5 is for PD to model the engine bay on front engine cars. This way all the internal upgrades like headers, aluminum heads etc can be visible when opening the hood or after a crash.

Click to expand...

Ferrari would never let you Livery Edit their cars. If we get a Livery Editor, the Ferrari F1 cars wont be able to be customized.

Variable power control from the in-race menu would be cool, it would be interesting in endurance races so you could back it off and save tyres and fuel really well...

I would like to see customization like kits for the cars. Only if it helps with downforce or aerodynamics

CorvetteConquer

Brakes:

1. Sport brakes- 3,000 credits

2. Semi-race brakes- 7,500 credits

2. Race brakes- 15,500 credits

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This, but give us a selection of brake discs and calipers to choose from too.

JBanton

This, but give us a selection of brake discs and calipers to choose from too.

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The only real difference that is likely to make is simply to fade resistance. Unless the overall braking power can be determined via disc and caliper combinations, plus master / slave cylinder ratios (what about bias / proportioning valves and the like?).

Of course, many of the "pedal feel" adjustments that make just as much difference in real life won't be meaningful in a game without pedal feedback. Although it might be great to be able to set the progressivity of the pedal and total useful travel independently of the brake power.

All I ask for is the following:

Turbo choices: allow us to chose the right turbo for the job. Small and fast spooling or large slow spooling turbos for big power. Let us choose conventional or variable-vane turbos even. Let us have some options that make us find the best setup for each car. And how about letting us set the boost level?

REAL ride height adjustment: being able to lower the car to a realistic ride height is critical. I'm tired of games limiting how much you can lower a car by X-number of mm, then making it the same across the board for almost every car. Most modern coilovers have more height adjustment than you would ever need, why the limitation in games? I'm been to hundreds of track days and you never see a track car setup with 2-3 inches of wheel gap, they're all on the ground and rigid as can be. Again having more options forces us to find the sweet spot for each car, making it more competitive. I would prefer to have the option to lower the ride height too much, than not enough.

Offset/Tire sizing: true choice in wheel offset and dimensions is also critical to track width of the vehicle and turn-in. Also free choice of desired sidewall height and width, everything from oversized balloons to thin stretched tires.

Sad that none of this has made it into games yet.

EDIT: and please, for god sake, give us more options in the wheels department. Half the selection of wheels in GT5 are just the same wheels in different colors. Why? Did they forget that they gave us the feature to repaint the wheels? Here's another idea: when you remove a set of wheels from a car (any car, even race cars please) let those wheels go into your inventory and then give us the option to put them on another car. Dare I say even give us the option to re-size them for other cars as well? It's a game, not real life, give us some unworldly options to take customization above and beyond.

Mmm, balloons...

light covers
grills
custom LED
Under Body Lighting

Just thinking of anything I

JBanton

If we have any of these we'll just end up seeing online flooded with ricers

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If that's true though, then that means the majority of players want them options.

Just saying.

Spagetti69

If that's true though, then that means the majority of players want them options.

Just saying.

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Whatever happened to those sensible tuners?...

I swear, they're becoming extinct

JBanton

I want to see a system whereby individual parts of each modifiable car can be customised separately. In GT5 there was no real possibility for exclusivity on any vehicle.

In GT6 I want to be able to buy a car and customise it so that it's a true reflection of my style and taste as a person, I want to have knowledge that my car is mine and nobody else has a car like it. I would hope that people understand what I mean when I say this

I dont want to see;

1. NOS
2. Neons
3. Over-the-top modification parts

If we have any of these we'll just end up seeing online flooded with ricers

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What were your suggestions again? Now that we have you criticism.

We need more body and part customizations and make it like in GT4. Every brand had its own "partnership" company as for example Mercedes Benz with AMG components/parts. (so you can add to that kits like Brabus...

And we also need more limitations in values so we can´t have again weird and unrealistic setups that makes cars going at light speed or taking curves like a rocket and that kind of stuff...too much values is what is making this game feels way Arcade in racers online. You can´t have proper races if those "alien setups" are everywhere.

I started to play a free game called ACR and it is far from GT5 at customization BUT better in the simulation physics (suspension is amazing and FFB) overall...and it has customization (paint, rims/wheels, overall parts of the car/engine/suspension/brakes, etc) and it works so well because you can´t touch the values but at the same time when you put a new part (brakes for example) the cars feels slightly better but in a realistic way, nothing exaggerated and that makes that then when you go to race online with other people you can have great EQUAL races against others. It has something similar to GT5 PP system too of course but the best part is that cars react in a natural realistic way all the time. To me that is great.

ACR is not a true simulator because it has tons of missing features from all simulators but cars react so good that makes you feel that you are driving a real car.

As i always say...if you don´t try and play everything you can´t even know what is missed in other games and what things could be better. There is no game that feels perfect or has everything but developers with games such as GT5 which is a huge game...should take a look at the others and see what they can do and get rid of to make it a great game in all areas.

@ Jonax101

Make low speed driving possible, please

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There is one way this could be possible while maintaining existing high-speed physics.
From a programming standpoint, one of the easiest operation a processor can do is a "byte shift" or multiply/divide by two. That's possible because of the way binary works.

Since a vehicle's momentum increases exponentially as you go faster. I figure that implementing such a constantly changing variable would keep the car planted at low speeds while keeping it slippery at high speeds.