Gran Turismo 6 general Physics Discussion(as well as video)

tankuroded

Anti-driver aid elitism at it's best/worst, right, Samus? For once I agree with you. Just read Ridox's sig

(I use ABS and DS3 on GT5)

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Thank you for the compliment, I don't care what others use to make them faster or whatever they deemed works for them. Do you feel bad when you read my sig ? Does it make you feel uneasy ? You are no better than anti aid elitists, shall I call you aid elitists ? I never used the word before, elite or not, means nothing to me.

Maybe someone should declare proudly they used all assist in the game, then we can mock him too for being an aid elitist.

Why do we all get hung up with this one word mentioned ?

tankuroded

Anti-driver aid elitism at it's best/worst, right, Samus? For once I agree with you. Just read Ridox's sig

(I use ABS and DS3 on GT5)

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I do not recall Rido ever once saying that he is better than anyone else because he uses no aids, or that drivers that prefer no ABS are somehow better than anyone else that plays the game. I have seen many, many posts from Rido advocating trying noABS in GT and describing how immersive it is, how much more alive the cars are..etc. Seems to me his comments are always on the positive side, if a little over the top, in his advocation of trying the game without AIDS. He's never once that I recall, had to resort to calling some the equivalent of an "elitist" or any other derogatory term to get his point across. If you can't see the difference, go back to your cave and hang with the other trolls, you'll probably like it there.

^ I may have made over the top reply to tankuroded, JP. I don't know why, but Samus, he's the only one who picked on me, it's almost like he's got a word detector on me, must have been something that he didn't like about me discussing no ABS, maybe he can't drive without it or resent every mention of it, just kidding, that was just speculation. I won't bother react to anyone about how I post about ABS, as long as I don't break AUP, I'll keep on going.

By the way, JP, I got a new no ABS video posted on my video thread Nothing special, just an old car, link on my sig.

I'd be a whole lot better if there were wheel/pedal sets that used a force-feedback type of unit for the brake.. a type of actuator that signals either ABS with light pulsing, or for non-ABS brake setups a bit of a loss off stiffness at he bottom portion of the pedal travel. With that we could feel exactly what's happening instantly, instead of relying on visual/auditory signs that are very hard to detect as brakes lock or ABS kicks in. Something perhaps for Thrustmaster to tinker as an upgrade on their T500's...

Force Feedback pedals, in real life, you don't really feel what the car is doing through the pedals, only the clutch gives you that feel, most of the things you feel come through the steering wheel and your ass but since virtual reality hasn't gone that far yet then it would be a neat idea.

Some kind of resistance would be enough, a load cell or something like that. Funny part is that with a gamepad, you instantly know when you're losing grip because of the rumble it makes, it's not very accurate but it's very useful.

occasionalracer

I'd be a whole lot better if there were wheel/pedal sets that used a force-feedback type of unit for the brake.. a type of actuator that signals either ABS with light pulsing, or for non-ABS brake setups a bit of a loss off stiffness at he bottom portion of the pedal travel. With that we could feel exactly what's happening instantly, instead of relying on visual/auditory signs that are very hard to detect as brakes lock or ABS kicks in. Something perhaps for Thrustmaster to tinker as an upgrade on their T500's...

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Many of us have that and PS3/ GT5 supports is flawlessly: Fanatec CSP/CSPV2 pedals.

The strength of vibration (actuation) and point of its engaging when braking can also be adjusted independently.

TheKitten

The issue with No ABS it will auto lock up because of default brake balance of 5F/5R. I Adjusted it down to 3-4 depending and it locks up lot less. But overall. 0/ABS is much more fun and gives a much better experience in GT5 with cars with no ABS. Example the F40 is amazing with no ABS...

GT5 ABS is garbage in my opinion.. I started recently drifting with 0/ABS and I felt more in control of the vehicle.

Im excited for GT6 and hoping a better ABS Simulation.

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Perfection.

EDIT: By the way, I'm also a pad driver and you don't need a wheel for ABS0.

amar212

Many of us have that and PS3/ GT5 supports is flawlessly: Fanatec CSP/CSPV2 pedals.

The strength of vibration (actuation) and point of its engaging when braking can also be adjusted independently.

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Oh I didn't realize that, does that actually work through the loadcell or is it separate rumble unit attached to the pedal? Are there any effects when driving without ABS?

occasionalracer

Oh I didn't realize that, does that actually work through the loadcell or is it separate rumble unit attached to the pedal? Are there any effects when driving without ABS?

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You get rid of the inbuilt stabilisation in GT5's ABS system
and you can lock your brakes



I put a squash ball under my DF GT wheel's brake pedal and it works well for getting that feeling for no ABS. Along with bungee cords for extra resistance for both pedals

PepeMickey

Force Feedback pedals, in real life, you don't really feel what the car is doing through the pedals...

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PepeMickey

Force Feedback pedals, in real life, you don't really feel what the car is doing through the pedals, only the clutch gives you that feel...

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The brake pedal can give you lots of feedback too, especially on older cars. For example, it can tell you a lot about the condition of you brakes.

In GT, I think it's kind of assumed that we have "optimal" brakes: pad compound that won't fade and that's thick enough that it won't wear out, fluid that won't boil.

My real-life experience agrees with PepeMickey's observation: the feedback I get is through the seat, through my inner ear, and through my eyes and ears. I don't get significant feedback through the pedals.

amar212

Many of us have that and PS3/ GT5 supports is flawlessly: Fanatec CSP/CSPV2 pedals.

The strength of vibration (actuation) and point of its engaging when braking can also be adjusted independently.

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Do you reccommend CSPV2? I'm looking to upgrade my g25 pedals and I'm seriously considering them! I've also got the CSR ELITE!

2. All those in favour (a few comments back) of the other game, what wheel do u use to play it? I got xbox360 + f4 and CSRE and it sux at it! I get sudden ffb kicks and loss which renders it unplayable ! Moreover i believe it doesnt work properly 900 degrees in f4!
Wheel works perfectly with all pc sims (lfs,rf1,2, NetKp, AC etc and GT5!

3. About the use of ABS! I dunno what's worse: not having any feel of when wheels lock or have ABS1 which makes you OP at braking without realistically functioning as ABS.. It's like ABS off but with no lock ups..

Amar, will the CSPV2 pedals solve this issue of no feel when AbS 0?

Goodwood SLS AMG GT3 gameplay + Replay



Grand Valley Audi Quattro S1 Replay



Matterhorn Rocket car gameplay + Replay

I really liked what I saw in the Rocket + Matterhorn video. I really got the sense of how bumpy the track was and how those bumps disrupted a car without any downforce.

I was thinking of Johnnypenso when I was watching the Matterhorn videos, of how he had lamented the smoothness of the fantasy and Course Maker tracks in Gran Turismo. Maybe the slight bumpiness will please him.

I don't think the bumps were as troublesome as the finicky physics, but it will be interesting to find out! Just two months to go... 👍

occasionalracer

Oh I didn't realize that, does that actually work through the loadcell or is it separate rumble unit attached to the pedal? Are there any effects when driving without ABS?

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No, load cell is load cell, the brake actuator (rumble motor) is separate hardware attached to the pedal. Depending the way you adjust point of pressure - adjustable via ABS setting via on-wheel setting - when you want to "feel" the vibration (i have it on 55% for instance for GT5), the pedal will begin to vibrate when that point has been reached. By pressing it further, the vibration will tension.

I did testings related to my driving (braking) style and found out the 55% best suites my personal brake balance settings in GT5 and way I personally adjust balance for cars. You can read more about my preferences for non-ABS driving in the link below.

Stephanos82

Do you reccommend CSPV2? I'm looking to upgrade my g25 pedals and I'm seriously considering them! I've also got the CSR ELITE!

2. All those in favour (a few comments back) of the other game, what wheel do u use to play it? I got xbox360 + f4 and CSRE and it sux at it! I get sudden ffb kicks and loss which renders it unplayable ! Moreover i believe it doesnt work properly 900 degrees in f4!
Wheel works perfectly with all pc sims (lfs,rf1,2, NetKp, AC etc and GT5!

3. About the use of ABS! I dunno what's worse: not having any feel of when wheels lock or have ABS1 which makes you OP at braking without realistically functioning as ABS.. It's like ABS off but with no lock ups..

Amar, will the CSPV2 pedals solve this issue of no feel when AbS 0?

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Well, I have some advices and answers for you.

First, yes, I absolutely recommend you CSPV2. Especially if you have CSRE wheel. I also own CSRE and both CSP and CSPV2 and CSPV2 are the best pedals in the world in the normal price range. You can read my detailed review about them here if you are interested.

Second, CSRE is greatest wheel for Forza (and also one of the best for Gran Turismo on PS3), especially for Forza 4, but in order to use it properly, you have to know few things. I know they are not common knowledge and I know Turn10 should inform the users better, but here it is, for the last few plays you will have :

a) in order to get maximum FFB you have to turn on Xbox360 console manually first (via power button on console) and turn the wheel ON after the console has actually booted.

b) in order to get proper 900-degree, you have to have profile (S_1, S_2.. whichever you are using on your CSRE for the Xbox) with 900 under the SEN and when you manually boot the console first, it is highly advised that you have proper S_x (1,2..) profile with SEN_900 as the profile on wheel under which you will turn the wheel and press Xbox360 connect button.

Third, in order to drive without ABS in Gran Turismo 5, you have to "calibrate" the pedals first. It is like that for all GT5 supported wheels, Logitech, Thrustmaster and Fanatec. It is highly advised not to touch brake pedal before you actually get to the track with the car for the first time during particular play. Once you get on track (I usually start GT5, and head to Practice with whatever car I am currently using, car does not matter), you should enter the race and once the race starts, you should fully PRESS THE BRAKE PEDAL and then release it. After that, you should quit that race. By doing that, brake pedal is calibrated and you will have proper travel for non-ABS drive.

Of course, for better understanding of driving without ABS in GT5, I will recommend you reading this overview I did dome time ago.

Best luck if you decide to go CSPV2, once you actually buy them and try them, they will become the favorite part of your driving equipment 👍

With my G25, I can "calibrate" the brake pedal in the menus, but only because I'm used to it now - I know that the threshold at which the "button-press" registers in the menu from the brake pedal is about where I want maximum travel anyway without ABS, so it works out well. I have an after-market load cell for mine, though, (which is beginning to wear - as I had suspected it would - and isn't working quite satisfactorily any more) and that method might not work well for the standard spring setup.

Great guides in that link, Amar. I think people should give it a try, as something to do whilst waiting for GT6. I couldn't believe the difference in character when I tried it in GT5 (and thankfully knew a bit about brake balance tuning from other sims...)

That was some smooth awesome gameplay. Loved it. 2 more months left too.

Tenacious D

I was thinking of Johnnypenso when I was watching the Matterhorn videos, of how he had lamented the smoothness of the fantasy and Course Maker tracks in Gran Turismo. Maybe the slight bumpiness will please him.

I don't think the bumps were as troublesome as the finicky physics, but it will be interesting to find out! Just two months to go... 👍

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Yes it's very encouraging to see that. Blasting around on an imperfect track with lots of HP and some comfort tires where you have to be aware of all the surface imperfections, when to be on the throttle or brake, how to line up the car...really adds to the challenge....especially without ABS.

townnet

Goodwood SLS AMG GT3 gameplay + Replay

Grand Valley Audi Quattro S1 Replay

Matterhorn Rocket car gameplay + Replay

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Great videos, thanks for sharing! Nice to see replays included, & from someone who can actually drive! 👍 Goodwood is looking much better since the first trailer was released, I'm glad they ditched the nasty looking beige road surface in favor of some good old fashioned grey tarmac. Looks a little bit bumpy too. More bumps please PD!

amar212

Second, CSRE is greatest wheel for Forza (and also one of the best for Gran Turismo on PS3), especially for Forza 4, but in order to use it properly, you have to know few things. I know they are not common knowledge and I know Turn10 should inform the users better, but here it is, for the last few plays you will have :

a) in order to get maximum FFB you have to turn on Xbox360 console manually first (via power button on console) and turn the wheel ON after the console has actually booted.

b) in order to get proper 900-degree, you have to have profile (S_1, S_2.. whichever you are using on your CSRE for the Xbox) with 900 under the SEN and when you manually boot the console first, it is highly advised that you have proper S_x (1,2..) profile with SEN_900 as the profile on wheel under which you will turn the wheel and press Xbox360 connect button.

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Amar212, thanks a million for that! I have tried it and it seems much better but still not perfect! Can you send me the wheel options you use and the in game settings? Thank you again, I really really appreciate this!
P.S you are a famous GT insider right? Do you have anything for us this time

Unfortunately, Amar is a loyal journalist and only dolls out early info in curious allusions and metaphors. Fortunately, this makes him a steady and reliable source of information. You can count on him to deliver a fairly extensive write-up of GT6 when he gets an early copy within a week of release.

^But everything with a grain of salt, because inside info before release date doesn't mean it will ultimately hold true. I still remember he said GT6 was coming for the PS4.

Also though he does know his stuff and has a wide perspective on the genre, he still is a GT fan so he will be biased and will use PD's relatively small size (which is their decision) as an excuse for everything.

Don't get me wrong he still is a great source for information, but the best source is oneself when trying GT6 at release date.

avens

I still remember he said GT6 was coming for the PS4.

Also though he does know his stuff and has experience on the competition, he still is a GT fan so will be biased.

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Internal plans in late 2012 were pointing in that direction. Changes have been made during early 2013. I reported that accordingly in the same place where I put the original rumor that found its way to GTPlanet at some point.

However, same "objective" and "neutral" sources that reported my original posting about GT6 being somewhat planned as PS4 title somehow forgot to also report my correction.

So, that much about "bias" and such labels.

I am automotive and racing-game fan and my most loving driving game of all time is F355 Challenge. However, my greatest respect in the industry goes towards GT series because it best fits into my personal and subjective idea about what constitutes a perfect driving game. I never cared about platforms or whatever, I play all games I can play and I enjoy all games I can enjoy.

If that means "bias", then okay, I can live with that 👍

Stephanos, I will answer you via PM soon, keep eye on the Private Message folder in days to come, regards.

Well, nobody really qualifies as a great source when not even the game developers hold true to their words. Best you can do is wait, rent the game and decide wether you like it or not.

I like how in the rocket+Matterhorn video from the cockpit when the suspension compresses the wheels became visible in the cockpit. Small little details like that please me. I'm looking forward to GT6. I have faith in PD that they will fix most of their mistakes from GT5.

I agree on that, the suspension movements looks good, too bad that movement doesn't transmit to the car in a proper maner, neider to the wheel via FFB.
If like PD created the perfect electronic suspension system for all the cars

Osr20_L

I agree on that, the suspension movements looks good, too bad that movement doesn't transmit to the car in a proper maner, neider to the wheel via FFB.
If like PD created the perfect electronic suspension system for all the cars

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They should go into partnerships with BMW for GT7, they use Electric Steering. Anything new in this topic lately? any changes to the physics noticed?

sk8er913

They should go into partnerships with BMW for GT7, they use Electric Steering. Anything new in this topic lately? any changes to the physics noticed?

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I don't think it really matters as it doesn't make a difference to a game developer, a force is a force in a FFB coding sense... it's 'just' numbers. BMW might use electronics for power steering, but it obviously a transfer/ interaction between mechanical movements and feedback.... I guess it could be possible aid with some mathematics, but there are of course a lot of engineering secrets that can't just be handed over.

I think it's actually really difficult for PD to nail all the different power steering feelings of each one of the cars present in GT6. Might not even be worth it because a lot of cars, for instance a newer Audi A4 that I drove the other day are so bland in real life (I'm sure the wonderful S4 uses a completely different system), mainly for comfort only, you can't feel a thing, it'd be pretty hard to translate the important feedback wheel users need in simulation games.