Opel/Vauxhall: will they ever be cool?

NLxAROSA · Dec 9, 2011

Opel/Vauxhall: probably unknown to most outside the EU, but well-known, or rather: infamous over here. The brands have the image (and probably rightly so) of being crappy built, crappy handling and being driven by scum.

However, some of their late hot hatch incarnations have been getting very good reviews, most notably the Corsa OPC/VXR (even though it understeers like a pig) and more recently: the Nürburgring Edition of the same car (which, apparently, is in Clio RS territory). Apparently, Opel/Vauxhall can make well handling/performing cars.

This makes you wonder (well, maybe not :lol:

) about the upcoming Astra OPC/VXR. Could they actually make a car that would kick Renaults backside when it comes to being the king of the hot-hatch segment? And, with handling and performance up to par, will Opel/Vauxhall ever be cool? Or, like Clarkson said: Nobody will buy them ever, simply because they are Opel/Vauxhall? Discuss.

XPOWER180 · Dec 9, 2011

NLxAROSA
The brands have the image (and probably rightly so) of being crappy built, crappy handling and being driven by scum.

That's like me saying all Dutch are drug taking, gay prostitute users.

I used to drive Vauxhalls, my dad did and my brother drives nothing but. I run my own business, my dad was head of credit control for a large national company and my brother is about to finish 22 years of service in the RAF. I'd like to think that none of us qualify as scum. Whilst i don't think they are cool at all, you're choice of words are quite simply wrong. 👎

C-ZETA · Dec 9, 2011

In Britain...no. Not with the number of previous-gen Corsas still threatening our streets. People always mention the Nova is the chav's car of choice but I've never actually seen one on the roads...it is mainly Corsas that get modified. But to be honest I still find Peugeot 106s, 205s, 306s and Citroen Saxos to be even more chavvy cars of choice. :sly:

The GTC VXR does look good - as do the stats, but I really don't want it to beat my favourite hot hatch - the Megane RS!!! :eek:

(Which I know you also own :sly:

) Wonder if Vauxhall will be able to combat normal hot hatch problems. I know their Corsa VXR Nurburgring Edition was given Hot Hatch of the Year by Top Gear, but to be honest this year has hardly been a bumper year for the hot hatch. :indiff:

Exception: VXR8. Although the Vauxhall badge is still misleading sadly.

E28 · Dec 9, 2011

XPOWER180
That's like me saying all Dutch are drug taking, gay prostitute users.

I used to drive Vauxhalls, my dad did and my brother drives nothing but. I run my own business, my dad was head of credit control for a large national company and my brother is about to finish 22 years of service in the RAF. I'd like to think that none of us qualify as scum. Whilst i don't think they are cool at all, you're choice of words are quite simply wrong. 👎

It's a stereotype OK? Doesn't mean everyone who drives a Vauxhall is scum, but that's what a lot of people seem to think.

NLxAROSA · Dec 9, 2011

XPOWER180
That's like me saying all Dutch are drug taking, gay prostitute users.

I used to drive Vauxhalls, my dad did and my brother drives nothing but. I run my own business, my dad was head of credit control for a large national company and my brother is about to finish 22 years of service in the RAF. I'd like to think that none of us qualify as scum. Whilst i don't think they are cool at all, you're choice of words are quite simply wrong. 👎

I never claimed the image was correct, but you can't deny it exists. FYI: my previous car was a 2009 Corsa OPC.

C-ZETA
The GTC VXR does look good - as do the stats, but I really don't want it to beat my favourite hot hatch - the Megane RS!!! (Which I know you also own )

If they can make it even better than the Meg, by all means do! (Though I have a feeling they can't, though that probably is influenced quite heavily by the stereotype

)

ryanb98
It's a stereotype OK? Doesn't mean everyone who drives a Vauxhall is scum, but that's what a lot of people seem to think.

Exactly.

Famine · Dec 9, 2011

NLxAROSA
will Opel/Vauxhall ever be cool

Vauxhall will never be cool. Vauxhall is so uncool that even the Barries who love them put Opel badges onto them...

RHD Vauxhall Corsa; Opel badge

RHD Vauxhall Calibra; Opel badge. And sunstrip...

RHD Vauxhall Astra; Opel badge. And sunstrip...

Entry-level RHD Vauxhall Omega; Holden, VXR and spurious 3.2 Turbo badges

Even the "cool" Vauxhalls are someone else's car (VX220 = Lotus; Monaro/VXR8 = Holden).

There's several problems at Vauxhall. The first is who Vauxhall targets as their market. They target fleet buyers - by making bland cars you can hang your suit jacket in and which can carry your flight bag full of samples over 60,000 miles at 85mph in 3 years. Then they fall apart, but the fleet managers will have got rid of them at that point. They target young drivers - by making small hatchbacks that Colleen and Garyella can abandonpark and bounce off things while they practice failing to drive over their first 3 years. Then they fall apart, but they'll have been crashed so many times by then they'll only have scrap value anyway. They target young families - by making middling saloon/hatchbacks that go from home to school to supermarket for three years, which the kids can systematically destroy. Then they fall apart, but the kids won't fit in them any more by that point so they'll have been part-exchanged for the next one.

The second is quality control. I've never been in a Vauxhall that actually felt as if it was put together well or from high cost components. They seem to be built using 1980s standards and practices - much as MG/Rover were - while everyone else has moved on.

The third is that Vauxhall seems to be an accountancy firm and not a car manufacturer. It's like it's about the balance sheets and not making the best car they can - they literally phone in the next design. Every now and then they change the name so we forget the stigma of the old one, but the Insignia is just an updated Vectra and they're not fooling anyone. Whereas manufacturers like Ford are always trying to improve cars like the Fiesta and Focus, which each new generation being, if not outright innovative, a new benchmark for the sector - Vauxhall adds a swage line and a new rear light cluster and calls it a new car. It's also like they've never driven the cars - or, more importantly, anyone else's. We had a current-gen Fiesta and I didn't enjoy it at all - but it drove differently from the Mk3 or Mk5 Fiestas and wasn't really designed for my enjoyment. That notwithstanding, it comprehensively outstrips the equivalent Corsa in every department, and every Corsa I've ever had the misfortune of being behind the wheel of has driven identically - numb, lifeless steering, a gearbox that feels like stirring a 2 gallon pot of sharks teeth with a dessert spoon, damp brakes and suspension that manages to be uncommunicative and wallowy while also being harsh and crashy (the VXR is different - it doesn't wallow. That's about it). Now, I'm not a big fan of Ford but it does at least seem they've made an effort to reinvent themselves from their 80s "Dagenham Dustbin" reputation and with some success. Vauxhall have not.

There is one exception to the uncool Vauxhall rule - the Omega. It seemed that, for once, they took a bit of time and care over it and made the effort to make a car, not a bunch of black numbers. Everything else, since the 80s, has been disposable motoring - Nova, Corsa, Astra, Cavalier, Vectra, Signum, Insignia, Senator, Belmont, Zafira, Meriva, Frontera (ugh!), Monterey, Antara (we'll hang fire on calling the Ampera just yet)... terrible cars.

Sticking the Gryphon on the front means all of the above. It's not just a badge, it's a symbol of everything that's penny-pinching, half-arsed motoring. No amount of BTCC success can wash away the fact that their road cars are not up to the grade.

homeforsummer · Dec 9, 2011

Famine
There is one exception to the uncool Vauxhall rule - the Omega. It seemed that, for once, they took a bit of time and care over it and made the effort to make a car, not a bunch of black numbers. Everything else, since the 80s, has been disposable motoring - Nova, Corsa, Astra, Cavalier, Vectra, Signum, Insignia, Senator, Belmont, Zafira, Meriva, Frontera (ugh!), Monterey, Antara (we'll hang fire on calling the Ampera just yet)... terrible cars.

I've driven the Ampera's Volt cousin and sat in a few Amperas and I'd say it doesn't feel like a Vauxhall usually does. Doesn't quite feel up to Audi/Merc/BMW levels of Germanic quality but it was a nice place to be inside. Lots to be said about an NVH-less drivetrain for interior ambience too...

As for Opel/Vauxhall specifically, count me in as someone who despises the cars and despises the people that drive them.

As above, there are exceptions to the Vauxhall/utter twonk rule, but in general Corsas are driven either by irresponsible, talentless, cretinous youths or myopic, dangerous old biddies, Astras are driven flat out by frustrated fathers in their late 20s, Zafiras match Renault Scenics and Citroen Picassos for being point-blank the worst driven vehicles on the roads, Insigniectras are driven by cocks who don't yet earn enough money to drive Audis and all the others are driven by people who only chose Vauxhall because they live near the dealership.

It's a pity, because the cars themselves are steadily getting better, but the same half-wits will always drive them.

I've passengered in several Vauxhalls which I wasn't keen on and driven a current-gen Corsa which was a waste of plastic and metal. Had the worst steering of anything I've driven (more inconsistent than an old Civic I drove with a failing PAS pump), a gearshift like stirring a lead pipe through dead bodies and for a car with the same size engine as my Fiat, it felt utterly flaccid. Only the ride quality was genuinely good (and my opinion of that may be clouded by the Fiat, which feels like riding a sheet of corrugated iron over another sheet of corrugated iron), but since chavs don't buy Corsas for their great ride quality it just proves they know nothing about handling.

Famine
a gearbox that feels like stirring a 2 gallon pot of sharks teeth with a dessert spoon,

Didn't see this when I wrote my own gearshift description...

XPOWER180
That's like me saying all Dutch are drug taking, gay prostitute users.

Wait... you mean they aren't? :sly:

Sccchmokin' a pancake

Slick Rick · Dec 9, 2011

I quite like the new Astra and the previous 3dr Astra... I think they will eventually shake off their bad image. Look at the Corsa C compared to the latest their miles apart!

Famine · Dec 9, 2011

Slick Rick
Look at

Now go drive one...

It might look different, but it's still the same underneath (not literally - it's not mechanically the same car, but there is next to no difference in the driving experience) - and it's still a car made by people who don't know or care what a car should be like. Probably for that reason, actually.

Ibonibo · Dec 9, 2011

Problems with Opels:

- Sterotypes driving the car.
- Bland design for most cars (the new insignia looks ok)
- Built quality (especially old models rust faster than you can rebuilt them)
- As famine said, their target group comes up with a lot of downsides in the cars (never sporty, but not really comfy either, try to achieve a middle thing)

BUT! not all Opels are bad, old end 80's Rear-wheel driven with a nice v8, that were fun cars.
New and old Opel GT is fun to drive and looks good (the old one is really cool)
The Speedster was a really fast car, just the pricing was downright wrong for an Opel.
The manta's were good cars too, though they lurked the wrong people on board, but it gave us a good movie (manta manta 👍)

Testdrove also the Corsa OPC, and it was fun, and they managed quite good to get all this power to the Front wheels.

Will Opel survive?
I don't think so in the long run, which will be sad as they have quite a long history, but not producing good products and failing to sell them, get you what you deserve.
If Opel had put up quality wise earlier, the outcome would probably been different, but "too little, too late" probably applies here.
(there new models have decent quality built (since mid 2000))
(test drove the insignia opc, and it is a decent car)

homeforsummer · Dec 9, 2011

*ibo* S3 Racer
BUT! not all Opels are bad, old end 80's Rear-wheel driven with a nice v8, that were fun cars.
New and old Opel GT is fun to drive and looks good (the old one is really cool)
The Speedster was a really fast car, just the pricing was downright wrong for an Opel.
The manta's were good cars too, though they lurked the wrong people on board, but it gave us a good movie (manta manta 👍)

I do agree with that actually, apart from the Opel GT which I have no experience with (well, the new one. The old 1960/1970s one is beautiful). I'm quite a fan of Mantas and Asconas, but then they tend to be driven and babied by enthusiasts now rather than scumbags with their baseball caps on backwards or sales reps with small willies.

Hugo Boss · Dec 9, 2011

NLxAROSA
Opel/Vauxhall: probably unknown to most outside the EU, but well-known, or rather: infamous over here. The brands have the image (and probably rightly so) of being crappy built, crappy handling and being driven by scum.

This makes you wonder (well, maybe not ) about the upcoming Astra OPC/VXR. Could they actually make a car that would kick Renaults backside when it comes to being the king of the hot-hatch segment? And, with handling and performance up to par, will Opel/Vauxhall ever be cool? Or, like Clarkson said: Nobody will buy them ever, simply because they are Opel/Vauxhall? Discuss.

Opel/Vauxhall will never be cool. Maybe a single model, but that's about it. Unless they stop producing everyday cars and focus on niche models only, but I can't see that happening. But then, Renault, Alfa Romeo, SEAT, VW, BMW, etc. aren't cool either. So I can't see the need.

I'm sure they can make an OPC that can compete with the RS models from Renault. Problem is that it probably won't sell. Renault is active in F1 and multiple other classes, Opel hardly. The demand for an hardcore Opel is simply much lower. A more accessible version then sells better. Just look at the Golf GTI, arguably the best selling hot hatch.

Here in NL Opels have always been the choice of the family man. A decent and safe choice. They weren't crappy built I would say, just one of the last manufacturers to stop their cars from rusting away. Handling wasn't that well, but then that was only an issue with driving at the limit or with the hot hatches. I always disliked Opels because of the terrible interiors and deadening looks, especially the 90's models. If you imagine cars having a facial expression, I'd call most Opels depressive..

However, the Astra and Vectra/Insignia are decent cars though, onwards from the Astra G and Vectra B. The Corsa (non-OPC) has always been rubbish imo, never able to challenge it's biggest rival, the Polo.
Problem Opel has now is that they wanted to get rid of their middle-of-the-road image. They wanted to go 'premium' like VW and design more 'desirable' cars. They managed not only to drop that image, but also their market share at the same time... Although their engine technology not being up to par also plays a role in that, since it's all about emissions these days. Still, things don't look well now. I hope for Opel that they focus more on getting their every day versions sold, the GSI/OPC models won't rescue them.

Azure Flare · Dec 9, 2011

They are allowed to be cool in the same way that Milhouse is a meme.

axletramp · Dec 9, 2011

Vauxhall not cool? Can't think why...

18191963754168807516.jpeg___1_500_1_500_cb94de6a_.png

Tornado · Dec 9, 2011

Famine
The third is that Vauxhall seems to be an accountancy firm and not a car manufacturer. It's like it's about the balance sheets and not making the best car they can - they literally phone in the next design. Every now and then they change the name so we forget the stigma of the old one, but the Insignia is just an updated Vectra and they're not fooling anyone. Whereas manufacturers like Ford are always trying to improve cars like the Fiesta and Focus, which each new generation being, if not outright innovative, a new benchmark for the sector - Vauxhall adds a swage line and a new rear light cluster and calls it a new car. It's also like they've never driven the cars - or, more importantly, anyone else's. We had a current-gen Fiesta and I didn't enjoy it at all - but it drove differently from the Mk3 or Mk5 Fiestas and wasn't really designed for my enjoyment. That notwithstanding, it comprehensively outstrips the equivalent Corsa in every department, and every Corsa I've ever had the misfortune of being behind the wheel of has driven identically - numb, lifeless steering, a gearbox that feels like stirring a 2 gallon pot of sharks teeth with a dessert spoon, damp brakes and suspension that manages to be uncommunicative and wallowy while also being harsh and crashy (the VXR is different - it doesn't wallow. That's about it). Now, I'm not a big fan of Ford but it does at least seem they've made an effort to reinvent themselves from their 80s "Dagenham Dustbin" reputation and with some success. Vauxhall have not.

Nice to know GM's GM-ness transcends oceanic boundaries.

homeforsummer · Dec 9, 2011

Toronado
Nice to know GM's GM-ness transcends oceanic boundaries.

Christ, don't let Holden fans hear you say that...

NLxAROSA · Dec 9, 2011

Famine
Vauxhall will never be cool. Vauxhall is so uncool that even the Barries who love them put Opel badges onto them...
.
.
.
.

Sticking the Gryphon on the front means all of the above. It's not just a badge, it's a symbol of everything that's penny-pinching, half-arsed motoring. No amount of BTCC success can wash away the fact that their road cars are not up to the grade.

Hmm, I've seen quite a few Opel enthusiasts put a Vauxhall badge on their cars over here. And over here, the general image of Opel is exactly the same as Vauxhall in the UK. However, in Germany it doesn't appear to be the same way.

homeforsummer
Wait... you mean they aren't?

No, we're weed-smoking, hooker-banging, finger-in-dyke people...wearing wooden shoes. All of us!

Famine
Now go drive one...

It might look different, but it's still the same underneath

I have driven a new generation Astra and they are definitely not the same: they're worse.

Especially the new gearbox is complete and utter crap. Not only is the gearing completely retarded, they made shifting complete hell by introducing a sort of notch on the left side between first and second. So basically, if you want to shift from a higher gear back to second, you have to move it into free air and guess where to put it. If you just slam it to the left and down (like on any other car), it will get stuck in the notch and you have to release it a bit, then push down. It was enough to turn me off completely. Then again, they usually have great gearboxes on the OPC/VXR models, so I'll have to refrain from judgement on that one until I've given it a test drive.

*ibo* S3 Racer
Testdrove also the Corsa OPC, and it was fun, and they managed quite good to get all this power to the Front wheels.

It's a fun little car (and I certainly wouldn't mind owning one again), but it understeers like a pig. I still had loads of fun with it though. 👍

Hugo Boss
I'm sure they can make an OPC that can compete with the RS models from Renault. Problem is that it probably won't sell.

I agree. However, the enthusiast will still buy a RenaultSport model, because they know it's an extremely well handling and well balanced car, like any RenaultSport model. What I'm wondering is if Opel can pull off the same with their OPC/VXR line?

homeforsummer
Christ, don't let Holden fans hear you say that...

Rebadging should be quite familiar to Aussies, since they're basically rebadged British. :lol:

(Before anyone throws a fit and small mammals or family members get hurt: that was a joke.

)

Furinkazen · Dec 9, 2011

BTCC did Vauxhall some brand good surely?

homeforsummer · Dec 9, 2011

Furinkazen
BTCC did Vauxhall some brand good surely?

It sold a few more Cavaliers, Astra Coupes and Vectra SRis perhaps but I wouldn't say it's changed their image. The Average Joe getting tailgated by a Vectra on the motorway doesn't give a stuff if they win a few BTCC races...

I'd suggest that the only brand whose image was transformed by BTCC was Volvo, when they made the staggeringly clever move of using the 850 Estate in 1994. And even then that was accidental, as they didn't have any saloon shells to give to TWR...

Murcie_LP640 · Dec 9, 2011

NLxAROSA
Rebadging should be quite familiar to Aussies, since they're basically rebadged British.

Heh...most Holden owners rebadge their cars with Chevrolet badges anyway...the silly nuffies.

Jim Prower · Dec 9, 2011

So, from what I'm gathering, Vauxhall = Pontiac Grand Prix/Grand Am/Sunfire drivers.

Famine · Dec 9, 2011

The US gets the European Vauxhall/Opel Astra as a Saturn Astra and the Vauxhall/Opel Insignia as a Buick Regal. They are both leagues behind their competition over here.

YSSMAN · Dec 9, 2011

I was just going to mention that the Buick Regal (Insignia) and Buick Verano (Astra) have been very well-received in the United States, and are considered to be excellent entries in the entry-level luxury segment. But, its primary competition comes from Lexus, Acura and Volksagen... So, it seems to fit a bit better here.

The only first-hand experience I have with an Opel/Vauxhall was the near-direct import of the previous generation Astra. They sold them as Saturns in the US for little more than a year, ultimately working out as a total flop in the market. Saturn had the tough time of either keeping it entirely European, or Americanizing everything, and losing touch with what had apparently made it a good car.

The driving experience was fine-ish, but there wasn't anything outstanding about it. The exterior was particularly attractive in three-door form, but only in the outrageously expensive XR trim. The interior left a lot to be desired, far too many wonky European features did not translate well to American expectations. You could tell it was designed as an A-to-B car, but even Japanese A-to-B cars had more soul than that.

...But as a Buick? They make sense. Too much, in fact. The Regal is incredibly attractive inside and out, and as I understand it, they drive quite well. The Canadians screw them together in a manner that suggests that they are reliable, and in the end, the pricing isn't too bad either. For the Verano? Even more so.

I'd buy a Regal. I'd probably be very happy. But does that make it cool? Probably not. Considering my age, I'm far too attracted to mid-size sedans for my own good.

Jim Prower · Dec 9, 2011

Famine
The US gets the European Vauxhall/Opel Astra as a Saturn Astra and the Vauxhall/Opel Insignia as a Buick Regal. They are both leagues behind their competition over here.

I'm going by reputation rather than platform sharing. Seems like Pontiac drivers and Vauxhall drivers share something in common.

Grayfox · Dec 10, 2011

Both are so uncool that some people even go as far to put Holden badges on them to make them less uncool.

Camaroyenko · Dec 10, 2011

There's this '70 Opel GT that runs at the dragstrip, that thing's mean!!!

JJ72 · Dec 10, 2011

Furinkazen
BTCC did Vauxhall some brand good surely?

It dose for me, as the only exposure I get here is BTCC and very rarely some cabrio Astra. None of the rubbish you see in the UK.

axletramp · Dec 10, 2011

Camaroyenko
There's this '70 Opel GT that runs at the dragstrip, that thing's mean!!!

Hmm, good point. Also might be worth dropping in a couple of drop-nose Firenza pics as an antidote to the modern ~~crap~~ stuff:

Future DLC?

Grayfox · Dec 10, 2011

axletramp
Hmm, good point. Also might be worth dropping in a couple of drop-nose Firenza pics as an antidote to the modern ~~crap~~ stuff:

Future DLC?

Looks kinda like the front from an Alpine A310.

E28 · Dec 10, 2011

Urmmm... Nope.

Opel/Vauxhall: will they ever be cool?

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