Opel/Vauxhall: will they ever be cool?

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No no no :lol: I dont mind the primera but the Mondeo! You are jesting with me now!
You have named the following.
Probe
Cougar
406
Mondeo
Primera

The only one I have never driven/owned is the Primera so I cant/wont comment on its driving performance but the rest of the list (in the Calibra years) must be just a joke.

The Probe you drove most certain must have had an issue with it, because despite being as ugly as sin (as pretty much all of these are in my eyes apart from the 406 Coupe) its underpinning for the day were fine.

The Mondeo (and by association the Cougar) has always been well rated in terms of its chassis and suspension set-up, as has the Pug. The Primera was the class leader in its day, while the Calibra was based on dated and poorly regarded Vectra A underpinnings.

So in short I would rate the chassis and suspension set-up of every one of those above the Calibra.


Scaff
 
In response to ^^^
Both my Calibras and a Vectra I had as a company car (vectra B) were much better when driving quick than the 406 and therefore by default the cougar and probe so there is no way what your saying is true, we will have to agree to disagree regardless of the underpinnings or the shape of the cup holders :sly:
One was better than the other based on months/years of driving the actual car (on the road every work day/night).

MatsiMonk
In a straight line I think it was faster than stuff like the 406 coupe and Alfa GTV.. but I suspect it never handled that well. To be fair, I grew up on Rovers, since my Dad worked for them for a time, and I always liked the feel of them to drive... on the plus side his first company car with them was an SD1 Vanden Plas (I think), and the last was an 827i Sport.. but my overwhelming memory was my second car, a Rover 216GSi that had " " twisted " " enough to crack the windscreen from corner to corner, and a Honda K series derived engine that did two head gaskets within a year (I was driving like I was caressing a rare and delicate butterfly - obviously...).. either way the 220 turbo coupe in Tahiti blue is on my all-time list of cars I'd like to own, a short way behind an Aston Martin Vantage (90's version), and a BMW 635CSi... ... 1 down, 2 to go.

I guess your dad got a great deal on his cars, do you remember which engine was in the SD1 Vanden plas? Was it the V8 petrol?
A rover just behind an Aston Martin? :D It just goes to show how very different peoples car dreams are 👍
 
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The Probe you drove most certain must have had an issue with it, because despite being as ugly as sin (as pretty much all of these are in my eyes apart from the 406 Coupe) its underpinning for the day were fine.

The Mondeo (and by association the Cougar) has always been well rated in terms of its chassis and suspension set-up, as has the Pug. The Primera was the class leader in its day, while the Calibra was based on dated and poorly regarded Vectra A underpinnings.

So in short I would rate the chassis and suspension set-up of every one of those above the Calibra.


Scaff

Have you ever driven the Ford Cougar? It's as if someone got a team of designers and engineers in a room and asked them to build a car which captured the essence of "insipid". Soulless, droney-engined, overpriced underdone rubbish which only succeeded in making the Toyota Celica seem exciting and sexy. And don't get me started on that limp, asthmatic excuse for a v6 in the nose, especially chained to the autobox. I've seen pensioners with emphysema attack hills with more vigour and conviction than that dunger.

Mind you, I'd like to see the insane asylum where they keep the guy who did the layout for the previous-model Astra's HVAC stack. "Now Harold, remember how you did number two in your hands the other day? Well, we'd like you to do that again, only instead of fingerpainting, we'd like you to clap! Won't that be fun?!? Ok, now stand in front of the paper, aaaand CLAP!"
 
In response to ^^^
Both my Calibras and a Vectra I had as a company car (vectra B) were much better when driving quick than the 406 and therefore by default the cougar and probe so there is no way what your saying is true, we will have to agree to disagree regardless of the underpinnings or the shape of the cup holders :sly:
One was better than the other based on months/years of driving the actual car (on the road every work day/night).
I get it, you love Vauxhall's. Problem is that in regard to these particular models the general; concerns of opinion doesn't agree with you.

You think they were great, I drove them back to back with all their key competitors ion the road and track, and based on that I disagree.



Have you ever driven the Ford Cougar? It's as if someone got a team of designers and engineers in a room and asked them to build a car which captured the essence of "insipid". Soulless, droney-engined, overpriced underdone rubbish which only succeeded in making the Toyota Celica seem exciting and sexy. And don't get me started on that limp, asthmatic excuse for a v6 in the nose, especially chained to the autobox. I've seen pensioners with emphysema attack hills with more vigour and conviction than that dunger.

Mind you, I'd like to see the insane asylum where they keep the guy who did the layout for the previous-model Astra's HVAC stack. "Now Harold, remember how you did number two in your hands the other day? Well, we'd like you to do that again, only instead of fingerpainting, we'd like you to clap! Won't that be fun?!? Ok, now stand in front of the paper, aaaand CLAP!"

I have and while some of what you refer to will be market specific (the suspension set-up of the European cars did differ to other markets - but that's not unusual), I don't disagree that the Cougar was a ugly lump (I have said as much already), what I have said is that its a better drive than the Calibra.

That said, back on the topic of the thread, none of this changes my opinion that the Calibra can in no way be considered cool.


Scaff
 
I guess your dad got a great deal on his cars, do you remember which engine was in the SD1 Vanden plas? Was it the V8 petrol?
A rover just behind an Aston Martin? :D It just goes to show how very different peoples car dreams are 👍

I was quiet young when we had the SD1, I don't recall if it was a V8, but I do remember it was an automatic. I also remember we had to abondon it in the snow, and walk miles through deep snowdrifts to get home, I was 5!
 
PeterVod_69
Have you ever driven the Ford Cougar? It's as if someone got a team of designers and engineers in a room and asked them to build a car which captured the essence of "insipid". Soulless, droney-engined, overpriced underdone rubbish which only succeeded in making the Toyota Celica seem exciting and sexy. And don't get me started on that limp, asthmatic excuse for a v6 in the nose, especially chained to the autobox. I've seen pensioners with emphysema attack hills with more vigour and conviction than that dunger.

Mind you, I'd like to see the insane asylum where they keep the guy who did the layout for the previous-model Astra's HVAC stack. "Now Harold, remember how you did number two in your hands the other day? Well, we'd like you to do that again, only instead of fingerpainting, we'd like you to clap! Won't that be fun?!? Ok, now stand in front of the paper, aaaand CLAP!"
:lol: very good :D

Scaff- Only the ones I mentioned, along with lots of Fords/Alfa's/Beemers and Volkswagens.
We agree to disagree 👍

MatsiMonk- Yeah I have similar memories having to abandon my dads SD1 too :( I think the battery came loose and shorted on the bonnet! Another one caught fire in a car park :lol: The V8 was underpowered for its 3500cc but tuned it was quite a beast, ours was either a 4.6 or 5.2 with all sorts of tuning :D
 
I shant go and get reviews that favour the Calibra

Call me a cynic, but I think this is because you'd struggle to find any.

I don't mind finding a few though:

Big Top Gear mag test of ten coupes. Calibra's in there. So is the 406, in 2-litre form which never really got good reviews. And the Rover coupe. And the Hyundai, and the not-as-pretty 5th-gen Prelude. Non-VTEC. And the basic 1.8 Celica. Vauxhall's got to have a chance right?

IMG_08271.jpg


Ah. Oh.

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Well, Top Gear bias you say. Until you see the guest testers' verdict.

IMG_08311.jpg


Never mind, maybe Autocar will be more positive.

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Practical! That's definitely why people buy coupes. Okay, well maybe Car magazine then. 1991. 4x4 coupe test.

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Celica wins. Audi & Vauxhall draw. Never remember that generation of Audi being described as much of a handler. Even as the S2.

Admittedly I don't have loads of Calibra reviews in old mags, but I don't recall ever having read one that praised anything other than its looks. Not to mention the fact that it's certainly not a "cool" car.
 
Yay, my Fiat Coupe was first! Thanks for that article, I am chuffed now :D
Its also interesting to see the Redtop 2litre was faster to 60 than the V6 2.5 👍
(PS, my Turbo Cally (205bhp) was about 4 seconds faster than my turbo Coupe (240bhp) on the local 10 mile 'race track', must have been the 4WD ;))

http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews1382.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/reviews/vauxhall/calibra/1992/

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/betyouaint/Calibra%20Turbo.htm

The first three hits for calibra turbo reviews, I particularly like the second one as he is winding up some people, user reviews by people who OWN the car not just try it out :D
 
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Big Top Gear mag test of ten coupes. Calibra's in there. So is the 406, in 2-litre form which never really got good reviews. And the Rover coupe. And the Hyundai, and the not-as-pretty 5th-gen Prelude. Non-VTEC. And the basic 1.8 Celica. Vauxhall's got to have a chance right?

I think I have a similar test in an old Autocar, I'll never be able to find it though!

I call BS anyway! The BMW 318iS Coupe beaten squarely by the Fiat Coupe!!! That's unpossible!!!
 
The first three hits for calibra turbo reviews, I particularly like the second one as he is winding up some people, user reviews by people who OWN the car not just try it out :D

Yes... not the most impartial results, really, are they? You're unlikely to find people spending their hard-earned on a car and say "actually it doesn't handle, it's slow...".

Testing ten cars back-to-back is a much better barometer of whether something is any good or not. Or, if you drive every car on the market as car journos tend to, and still say it's worse than everything else, then it probably is.

You could drive an MGF for a decade and think it's brilliant, and then someone will sit you behind the wheel of an MX5 or MR2...

I call BS anyway! The BMW 318iS Coupe beaten squarely by the Fiat Coupe!!! That's unpossible!!!

Not too much. This might be the other way around to what I described above.

Drive the cars back to back and the BMW probably feels a little slow and heavy (which to be fair, it is - 140bhp-odd and about 1300-1400kg to battle against), but it's the BMW that you'd prefer to own for a decade...

The E30 318is is generally considered as a better car than the E36 318is. E36 is a bit of a heavy old Hector. Better with an inline six.
 
^^ I think i mentioned they were owner reviews:)
I am not new to driving and can only compare maybe 18-20 cars having used them everyday, this is the point. I havent been given the keys and say write a review as this is no way to test a car.
Of all my cars (vauxhalls/alfas/fords/volkswagens/peugeot/bmw/volvo) I would say that the Calibra was in the top three for performance in real life situations. I wont change my opinion because of a car review. I know better than them because I have lived with the car.
Funnily enough my Alfa 156 was the best car I ever had for reliability, Fords were the worst for rust and breaking down and the peugeot was the biggest dissapointment :(
 
I havent been given the keys and say write a review as this is no way to test a car.
I believe you suffer what is called "fanboy-itis".

Many of us suffer it, we believe out car is superior to others because it's our car. You associate good memories with it, and join forums devoted to it so that you may share your wonderful experience with others (I own a '99 Nissan Almera, and I even I was shocked to see there are at least 2 forums devoted to them).
 
I need to add soemthing to this:

A lot of the post there turn around the UK market, which is fine as a lot of you come from there. But the market on the mainland and especially in Germany is another one.

The mx6 was never big on the mainland as was with all the Japanese cars in the 80's & 90's. Why the Uk had more of them? Probably because of the wrong sided steering wheel.

So they can be left out for the mainland as they really didn't play a major role here.
Italians are great in design, but suffered a huge image deficit because of poor quality compared to German manufactored cars (especially electronics).
Then the French were and still are not really that big in german speaking territory. They are still considered exotics, though in the 2000's that changed quite a lot.

German speaking territory had and have a real specifity to them. Germans are very loyal to their maufactures. In the 80's and 90's the tuner scene in Germany was either VW or Opel and it was a big rivalery between the two.
Germans also bought opel because it was a national product. Then there is the price point, people who couldn't buy VW's bought Opel. It was still German, but for a lesser price than a VW.
Just the same as Top Gear, or Uk citizens cherrish their home products (TVR,MG,...), even though they are considered "kind of rubbish" outside UK. (ask a german what he thinks of Uk cars)

All to simply state, there are other angles this can be viewed or compared to, depending where you come from.

Now not all Opel's are bad for what they were worth for, you still need to consider that as exemple in Germany, French garages were rare in the 80's & 90's, so when money was tight a Opel was a sane choice to make.
That they rust away like snow in sunshine, that their quality of built was not on the same level as VW, that they have and had a chav or pensionier image (even in Germany) is undisputable. But so was their price point (which was a buying reason for a lot of customers, and also gave them also lot of business clients)
But Opel had their right to exist in the 80's and 90's is also undisputable.

But that Opel would struggle in the future (as we see now), you didn't have to own a crystal ball to forsee it. Opel will die of sooner or later. They simply aren't up to time anymore, they just produce blend cars and sell it with the label made in germany. Opel should have died 2 years ago, instead it got saved by politics which is a break to the free markets.

Don't hit me for this but,
In the current line up, I really like the Insignia GTC. For the price you get a nice looking car with 4*4 and enough steam under the bonnet. And for the whole 2000's it's only the Speedster and the Opel Gt which stand out (a bit).
But that's it, I would never buy an Opel.
Though my bro was kind of happy with his Vectra 2002 Combi back in the days. Now he has a Octavia RS and he don't want to look back anymore. ;)

I knew someone who has a big Opel tatoo on the chest = Chav, idiot.👎:yuck::ouch:
 
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Just the same as Top Gear, or Uk citizens cherrish their home products (TVR,MG,...), even though they are considered "kind of rubbish" outside UK. (ask a german what he thinks of Uk cars)

No... I'm pretty sure most of our domestic offerings weren't very good! And Top Gear generally tend to mock the west-midlands heritage of most British cars too - The SD1 vs. Dolomite vs. Princess had me in stitches!
 
I'm pretty sure most British people think of their Vauxhalls (and Fords) as being British too.
 
I'm pretty sure most British people think of their Vauxhalls (and Fords) as being British too.

At the end of the day it depends on why you're being patriotic, If somebody buys a Vauxhall because it 'British', then it's a bit thin.. but if the buy a Vauxhall because it's made in Britain, then I can understand it... car manufacturers employ a lot of people, my Dad working in the car industry all his life, I've been/am involved with supplying Automotive 1st, 2nd and 3rd tier suppliers for most of career... and to be honest I like it when people support national industry... (so I can afford to go and buy a German car :D), but I'm not about to pretend that the majority of the products are something they are not, and quite often they are not as good as they could be.

The likes of Aston Martin, Rolls-Royce and Bentley may not exactley be as British as they were, but whilst they're still assembled here, then I think us Brits can still say we 'build' some of the best cars in the world (even if we don't design, manufacture or fund them!)
 
ExigeEvan
I believe you suffer what is called "fanboy-itis".

Many of us suffer it, we believe out car is superior to others because it's our car. You associate good memories with it, and join forums devoted to it so that you may share your wonderful experience with others (I own a '99 Nissan Almera, and I even I was shocked to see there are at least 2 forums devoted to them).

But I drive an Alfa and my favourite make of car is probably BMW :)
 
At the end of the day it depends on why you're being patriotic, If somebody buys a Vauxhall because it 'British', then it's a bit thin.. but if the buy a Vauxhall because it's made in Britain, then I can understand it...

It's still quite thin - only the Astra is made in Britain (at Ellesmere Port). The Vectra was, but the Insignia and Zafira are German, the Corsa is Spanish, the Tigra is French and the Antara is Russian. I forget where the Ampera is made, but since it's a Chevy probably not here.

I think most British car enthusiasts recognise the inherent weaknesses of all of our marques. Even the good cars are amongst the least reliable cars ever made and the interesting ones are thin on the ground. The mainstream ones have all been bought up and the money moved abroad, the mainstream-niche ones have all been bought up and sanitised, the niche-mainstream ones are awesome but fragile and that only really leaves us with shed-engineered niche cars. You know, the Atom's nice and all (and quick, devastating and, alarmingly, reliable), but we must have sold about... four or five hundred of them - it doesn't make up for the Maestro, let alone the TR7, the Montego, the Allegro, the Marina...
 
Ampera is built in Detroit, though the Germans want also to have it built in Germany. That was last year, how it evolved, no idea
 
At the end of the day it depends on why you're being patriotic, If somebody buys a Vauxhall because it 'British', then it's a bit thin.. but if the buy a Vauxhall because it's made in Britain, then I can understand it... car manufacturers employ a lot of people, my Dad working in the car industry all his life, I've been/am involved with supplying Automotive 1st, 2nd and 3rd tier suppliers for most of career... and to be honest I like it when people support national industry... (so I can afford to go and buy a German car :D), but I'm not about to pretend that the majority of the products are something they are not, and quite often they are not as good as they could be.

I can see where the patriotism comes from with Vauxhall and Ford in the UK. Up until the late '60s with Ford and the early '70s with Vauxhall, the two companies made separate ranges of cars to Ford of Germany and Opel. They were both obviously owned by American parent companies, but the cars they produced were made in, and predominately sold in, the UK. They were essentially British through and through - for better or worse.
 
(ask a german what he thinks of Uk cars)

Germany loved the Rover 75, apparently. As did Japan. The latter are a law unto themselves, and the former might be explained given how much BMW there was in the 75...

(Incidentally, if you get the chance, ask a motoring journalist (not me) what they think of the Rover 75. In my experience, 90% will be very positive responses).

But I do understand what you're saying. There's a patriotism to it, though as Famine points out, even the most patriotic of British car fans can admit there have been some pretty shoddy efforts in the past.
 
Read a side-by-side review by Dutch Autoweek magazine of the new Opel Astra GTC 1.6 180HP vs the Renault Mégane Coupé GT 2.0 180HP.

Their verdict: the Astra has the better looks. ;)

The Astra doesn't handle too bad, but the Mégane completely wipes the floor with it (which Autoweek assumes is due to the fact that it has a suspension from RenaultSport). Furthermore the Astra drivetrain feels lethargic (and apparently it's not just feeling, because it also shows very clearly in acceleration figures), it has similar fuel usage as the Mégane, despite (or maybe because of?) having a smaller engine and to top it off, it costs 2k euro more and has less options.

Note: it still got 3.5 stars out of 5. Autoweek thinks it's a good car, but its sportiness is ruined by the drivetrain and it's not up to standards set by other cars in the genre.
 
However shoddy some of their cars have been/are, there's something about the blue-collar cars that they made (not so much now as they all try to make more 'premium' cars) that means if you're British, you can't help but like Ford and Vauxhall.

Stuff like this helped aswell.
 
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Autoweek thinks it's a good car

Good and bad cars are a little different in concept now than they were 30 years since.

There isn't really such a thing as a bad car any more. By all empirical standards, cars are better now than they ever were - transport a 2012 Corsa back to 1982 and it'd be the best car ever made. Modern cars are bigger, faster, more reliable, more economical, safer, sound better, are better equipped, are better to drive - you name it, they're -er at it.

In 1982, your car still only had a 50/50 chance of being able to reach the British speed limit. You could tell cars apart because it'd either be fine at 70mph or it'd feel like it was a brick in a tumble drier - and on normal roads you'd need to be Tony Mason to drive near the speed limit. Everything today can drive at the posted limit all the time well within its capabilities.

Whereas in the past we could demarcate cars on whole chunks of top end, whole seconds of acceleration, whole months of time spent off the road and suchlike, modern cars are, honestly, much of a muchness and we can only distinguish on such banalities as the number of cupholders, the number of dimensions and positions you can set the seats to, the odd gram of carbon dioxide and how they feel. Within the initial warranty period, nothing really breaks down any more either.

The Astra may well be cheaply built from cheap materials, uncompetitively-priced and relatively unengaging to drive, but it makes the Mk2 Astra look like a skip full of rat faeces powered by a centrifuge full of nails. There's probably no objective standard where the current Astra is inferior to that perennial Vauxhall-fanboy-icon the Calibra (except drag coefficient :lol: ), though I doubt the Astra will ever feature on a poster on a small boy's bedroom wall. There is almost nothing you can buy today that wouldn't get 5 stars in a 1982 automotive publications and nothing is really any different to drive within the boundaries of normal driving because it's all so competent. It all comes down to what other things the driver can do while driving.


Vauxhall's big problem isn't one of building "good" cars - they're at the top of their game right now and nothing they make is inferior to anything they've previously made. Their problem is that they don't bring anything special to the market - the top of their game isn't the top of the game. They only ever had one saving grace - price - and first the French undercut them while also offering a great drive, then the Koreans undercut both and offered reliability (and longer and better warranties). It's no longer enough to make a cheap car - which is Vauxhall's only strength - because other people can make them cheaper and better.

It's probably no accident that Vauxhall/Opel's output almost exactly equals the European overcapacity (amount of cars made minus amount of cars sold). If they ceased to exist, it'd not change the car market one bit - except possibly improve the average quality a fraction.
 
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